NOC Smogon Mafia Mafia (Won by the Mafia)

FWIW I also assumed it was X-shot because of the word limit but a fairy is correct here, and I think AG as any alignment has reason to hide a more complicated mechanic by letting the assumption fly and later on saying "I mean I never said it was X-shot" when people are like "why tf isn't it X-shot".

Could see some 3p eq here actually, a complicated voteweight mechanism is right at home on an indie.
 
im going to eat lunch

zippy if you have a celever case you should probably post it
this is like the dozenth time he's posted "so why aren't we voting x" this game lol, p sure second time he's done it to me but I pressured him on a realiti one once and he was like "huh I don't scumread realiti that was just a joke"
 
Which Hydro read? The rest of the paragraph implies town, but I've seen more scumreads of Hydro than townreads lol
Screenshot_20231104_112718_Sheets.jpg

Seems like a somewhat equal spread.
 
I was asked by a player to clarify some action submitting rules. No matter if it's day or night, if you submit an action, you can always retract it and change it to a different target/usage as long as it's before deadline and hammer hasn't occurred. However, there may also be certain actions that can't be retracted, such as ones with immediate results. I hope that clears? some things up.
 
ty for this

this seems fine to me and i dont see why sam is making this out to be disproving rostam
Ok let me retrace what happened

1. I say 'AG looks bad because he kept using his mayor vote during a D1 vote that he claimed he had no particular stakes in so it would have made more sense for him to have retained the bonus vote' (side note Celever's theory is that once activated he cannot un-activate it, which is wild for other reasons I will get into later).
2. Rostam then completely alters my argument and says 'Sam lied and said AG wasn't using it to save himself when at the moment of activation he was being voted'. Which literally wasn't my argument in the exact thing he quoted.
3. I call Rostam out on this.
4. You say 'is it even an X-shot mayor' and Neon shows you where he said it was.

Does this help clarify where and how I disproved what Rostam said? If not, can you expand on which part of the above you're hung up on?

Finally, Celever I did consider the possibility that, once activated, AG could not de-activate it. This possibility is unlikely for several reasons but also why I pinged AG above without specifically mentioning it (figuring that he would call it out if so, but I didn't want to put the idea in his head to claim this as an out). The reasons I think it is unlikely are:
1. The vote is secret. It is basically a day ability. As far as I know there is no standard role that, once you submit a target for it, you cannot later change the target as long as it is still before deadline.
2. It seems to me that the whole point of keeping it secret is so that it can't be toggled on and off and used as hard proof.
3. AG has never once mentioned this as a possibility (i.e. him not being able to cancel it when it is a limited resource). Obviously now that we are talking about it (ty for raising this point before I could get him to commit to his claim btw) he can claim whatever and it'll be a lot harder to tell what is the truth or not.

HOWEVER, I will say this (and ping a fairy and Celever because they will enjoy this) - Celever is completely right that I need to stop making arguments such as "the only person who has done this is me" given that I am obviously not reading every single post closely. I am trying to keep up as best as I can but I am admittedly trying to focus on hard reads / accusations and am glossing over some of the softer stuff. I 100% admit that I was wrong in this, that Celever was right, and that I will do my best to avoid these arguments in the future.

So, Celever, can you tell me who else is scumreading Fairy? You mentioned a few people giving this read so I am curious.

FINALLY, important:
imperfectluck said:
  1. UncleSamToday at 9:17 AM
    question

  2. [9:17 AM]
    is it possible that there is a role which you could submit a target for

  3. [9:17 AM]
    then not be able to change it even though the update hasnt happened yet

  4. [9:17 AM]
    or not a target even a straight up activate

  5. [9:18 AM]
    because i was under the impression that until dl happens one can always change targets / activations, as is typical in smogon mafia

  6. NEW
  7. imperfectluckToday at 9:28 AM
    you can always change it until deadline unless it's something that can't be taken back such as an announcement, is what I'll say

Celever would you agree with me when I say that the only way to interpret this is that AG could have un-activated his extra vote and saved it during D1? Do you also agree that, given this, it is strange that he would not have cancelled it unless he felt he was more invested in the outcome than he stated in the thread?
 
View attachment 567969
Seems like a somewhat equal spread.
ngl I sort of am shamelessly sheeping Realiti in this read and care maybe 10% as much about all the other reads on Hydro put together. I just think that Realiti is giving me the hardest town soul vibes by far this game and when he says Hydro is lock town I just assume everyone else will realize that that is obviously correct. Also the only mafia reads I see there are AG, A Fairy, and Celever and that's not exactly the most stellar list of townies imo.
 
This was the earliest post I could find about it, post 922. AG didn't correct it so it is safe to assume that it is an accurate interpretation. Aura Guardian can you please clarify if this is somehow not correct and if so can you confirm why you didn't clarify sooner?
Endgame: Am I a three-shot with all three shots used so there's no point shooting me, or have I saved one for just now? Or am I a two-shot pretending to be a three-shot so I can mess with the Mafia's heads? Or is my limit something else entirely and all this a bluff to mess with them?

The greatest weapon is a secret. Thus, I won't explain further.
 
Ok let me retrace what happened

1. I say 'AG looks bad because he kept using his mayor vote during a D1 vote that he claimed he had no particular stakes in so it would have made more sense for him to have retained the bonus vote' (side note Celever's theory is that once activated he cannot un-activate it, which is wild for other reasons I will get into later).
2. Rostam then completely alters my argument and says 'Sam lied and said AG wasn't using it to save himself when at the moment of activation he was being voted'. Which literally wasn't my argument in the exact thing he quoted.
3. I call Rostam out on this.
4. You say 'is it even an X-shot mayor' and Neon shows you where he said it was.

Does this help clarify where and how I disproved what Rostam said? If not, can you expand on which part of the above you're hung up on?

Finally, Celever I did consider the possibility that, once activated, AG could not de-activate it. This possibility is unlikely for several reasons but also why I pinged AG above without specifically mentioning it (figuring that he would call it out if so, but I didn't want to put the idea in his head to claim this as an out). The reasons I think it is unlikely are:
1. The vote is secret. It is basically a day ability. As far as I know there is no standard role that, once you submit a target for it, you cannot later change the target as long as it is still before deadline.
2. It seems to me that the whole point of keeping it secret is so that it can't be toggled on and off and used as hard proof.
3. AG has never once mentioned this as a possibility (i.e. him not being able to cancel it when it is a limited resource). Obviously now that we are talking about it (ty for raising this point before I could get him to commit to his claim btw) he can claim whatever and it'll be a lot harder to tell what is the truth or not.
OK I mean firstly I didn't bring up if it's X-shot or not a fairy did lol.

As for everything else I understand your perspective wrt AG definitely being able to change the target, because that's your view of his claim... to me I'm pretty sure he claimed it's not a targeted ability, but rather a buff. It's why him confusing the announcer as being him "turning his mayor on" makes even less sense. If it were a targeted ability I could see your POV, and that you've gone with this line of argument at least lessens me feeling this exchange from you to me fairy and Rostam is scummy, but I also find the certainty with which you've tackled the situation offputting in its own right. I definitely think AG has implied more toward it being a buff than being a targeted action (it automatically switches when he votes in-thread, for example) and in that context I both don't think it would be able to be turned off, and if it can be I don't think he would assume it can be turned off, because I wouldn't. Being a limited resource, it also makes far more sense that there's actually a drawback to using the ability as compared to using it at day start and deciding whether you want to turn it off or not later.
Sam said:
HOWEVER, I will say this (and ping a fairy and Celever because they will enjoy this) - Celever is completely right that I need to stop making arguments such as "the only person who has done this is me" given that I am obviously not reading every single post closely. I am trying to keep up as best as I can but I am admittedly trying to focus on hard reads / accusations and am glossing over some of the softer stuff. I 100% admit that I was wrong in this, that Celever was right, and that I will do my best to avoid these arguments in the future.

So, Celever, can you tell me who else is scumreading Fairy? You mentioned a few people giving this read so I am curious.
I said people have taken hard stances on fairy. I'm pretty sure Blazade townread her, and I've also townread her. Maybe pulsar as well? I'm not tracking it that well that's what ImaginaryNeon is for.
Sam said:
FINALLY, important:


Celever would you agree with me when I say that the only way to interpret this is that AG could have un-activated his extra vote and saved it during D1? Do you also agree that, given this, it is strange that he would not have cancelled it unless he felt he was more invested in the outcome than he stated in the thread?
Absolutely a small thing but pasting host communication is not allowed.

Luckily I don't think it affects much if it is a buff because you asked if the target can be changed, and IPL left room in his answer to be interpretable as AG can or cannot disable his effect after activating it even if it is a target action. It could easily be an ability that "can't be taken back" even if it's secret IMO.
 
Alright I'm out for a while. Master reads list / tier list for voting for me for D2 and I'll really try hard to be on for deadline later to adjust vote if needed:
Will not vote: Realiti, Neon (role), Ehmcee (role, don't think this slot is locktown as others do), Hydro (kinda sheeping Realiti but also I have liked their posts in general)
Would be extremely unlikely to vote: Blazade, Celever (active, trying to solve, less likely than average to be scum imo for both of these)
I could see an argument but not my cup of tea (but ok with voting): skipper, tigershark, zippy, pulsar, a fairy (I'll put Fairy here because I do want another day of interaction with them and don't think the evidence to vote them is as strong as the others on my list below this)
I would prefer to vote one of these: Rostam, Aura Guardian (see my above posts for reasoning). Preference is Rostam between these two and that's where my vote is currently but again I will re-evaluate later.

Please ping me with important stuff or things you'd like me to see before deadline. realiti Blazade ImaginaryNeon Celever HydrogenHydreigon Ehmcee I am also going to be basing who I vote based on who the majority of you are voting today so I'd appreciate it if you could all ping me as well when you've decided.
 
Literally none of the three examples you cited are ‘incorrect information’. But I do appreciate people actually reading my posts and trying so ty.

1. Neon making a sheet like that still feels towny to me. No I haven’t played with him before and you can argue it is NAI because he always makes sheets but his energy in updating it and constantly sharing it still feels towny to me. Plus he’s now the confirmed announcer and thus pretty much confirmed town via role so what exactly are you arguing here? That I should’ve backed off my (objectively correct) town read? Bizarre take.
2. She literally said ‘I am not giving reads D1’, that is an objective fact. No idea what you’re talking about re. A Fairy. And yes I still slight scumread her although now that you mention it my reasoning has changed so I’m glad you asked about it. Originally it was based on her seeming purposefully unhelpful, but now it’s because a significant portion of the game (including you) seem to like referencing Fairy but not actually pressuring / calling her out or reading her one way or the other. It is strange how many people just want to like co-exist with her without interacting and that reads like scumbuddy distancing to me.
3. Go back and re-read the post you quoted because I literally did not say that I scumread AG for the danger of being voted (although he wasn’t at end of day anyway so not only are you wrong on my justification you’re wrong on the objective facts as well), I said that it’s weird he would still use the mayor to try to save someone when it is a limited resource and based on his own posts he didn’t have strong feelings between the two vote options. You know, exactly the opposite of the straw man justification you tried to claim I made.

It is weird to me that you’re like trying to pressure me by just making up things I never said. I do want people reading my posts more closely though because it’s been incredibly frustrating and demoralizing feeling like unless I actively spam the thread people ignore my reads.

My scum reads at this moment are:
1. AG based solely on the fact that his role does not feel town to me, and his usage of it was strange - just doesn’t make any sense why town AG would pop a limited shot on Day 1 at end of day (I.e. he would have cancelled using it if he were town and had no stakes in the final vote, as he claimed). That being said his posting does feel towny and his role is proven, so I’m feeling this vote less and less.
2. Fairy. Hated their posting style all game (sort of active lurking under the radar), while literally everyone in this game is keeping a distance from her. If you think about it pretty much the only person in this entire game who has taken a hard stance on her is me. She has no many potential scum pairings that probabilistically she is more likely scum than average even if you don’t buy any of her behavior being strange.
3. Rostam due to the Jalmont evidence. I actually don’t hate Rostam’s posting in general but I buy Blazade’s role based arguments and the post I quoted was a completely awful one riddled with factually untrue things.

Town I still feel good about Realiti and im coming around to the HydrogenHydreigon read that others have made. This is on top of ImaginaryNeon who via role I think is obviously lock town. I’m probably going to base who I vote today heavily on who these three are voting.

Blazade and Celever could go either way but I still town lean both of them.

Ehmcee we haven’t talked about much due to the vig claim but I will point out it is a little sus of a claim given it has ‘the same flavor as the mafia kill’. Obviously I would never vote this slot until we get more info and if we see two kills with mafia flavor then we can confirm this role very easily, I’m just not ready to put them in lock town due to role until I see the proof.

realiti did you comment on the Jalmont / Rostam thing anywhere and I missed it? What’re your thoughts on them vs. Pulsar vs. AG? Also what’re your thoughts on other scumreads / towncore?

Hi Sam, I’m sorry, my last post was needlessly aggressive even if I mostly stand by the points I made. I could have definitely articulated things more clearly. Let’s be friends.

The point about a fairy was that you have been consistently scumleaning her and were pushing to vote her eod1 with the only basis for that being her refusal to give a d1 read, but she did give several reads at 612 and pointed that out to you. This is the first time you have updated your basis for the fairy read afaik.

To be honest I never even considered the possibility that AG could deactivate the extra vote ability, so that’s my bad; I’ve never really heard of a doublevoter that needs to be activated anyway. I can better see where you are coming from now.
 
LOCKTOWN

realiti

Hydro

TOWN

Blazade skipper Neon AG Ehmcee (off role claim)


That leaves Celever, pulsar, fairy, Rostam, tiger, Sam, Zippy


Tend to agree with this breakdown except that Hydro/Skipper are neutral at best. Ehmcee has really thrown me with the vig claim.
LOCKTOWN
realiti
Hydro

TOWN
Blazade skipper Neon AG Ehmcee (off role claim)

That leaves Celever, pulsar, fairy, Rostam, tiger, Sam, Zippy

Tend to agree with this breakdown except that Hydro/Skipper are neutral at best. Ehmcee has really thrown me with the vig claim.
 
To be honest I never even considered the possibility that AG could deactivate the extra vote ability, so that’s my bad; I’ve never really heard of a doublevoter that needs to be activated anyway. I can better see where you are coming from now.
I chose not to, but I didn't have time to properly keep track of votes so I didn't realize it was going to be a tie.

Celever and Sam have both been rubbing me the wrong way recently.
 
maybe this is not good gameplay of me but i read sam's response to me and like, idk man you're on a different page. going down a direction scumreading AG off of things that i do not scumread him on, i don't really mind if you think rostam twisted your words or even if it's objectively proven. sure my reads on AG have historically been off but fmpov you're making a scumcase out of role mechanics leading into behavior, where i'm townleaning AG based on behavior leading into role mechanics

i fully do not care if you think AG's role doesn't make sense, neon explained the case for why the votes add up and i was bullish on town ag from behavior and the only thing that wasn't adding up, and adding up so poorly that i was down to vote him but just waiting on his appearance for an explanation, was the vote math, which neon solved

1. I say 'AG looks bad because he kept using his mayor vote during a D1 vote that he claimed he had no particular stakes in so it would have made more sense for him to have retained the bonus vote' (side note Celever's theory is that once activated he cannot un-activate it, which is wild for other reasons I will get into later).
2. Rostam then completely alters my argument and says 'Sam lied and said AG wasn't using it to save himself when at the moment of activation he was being voted'. Which literally wasn't my argument in the exact thing he quoted.
3. I call Rostam out on this.
4. You say 'is it even an X-shot mayor' and Neon shows you where he said it was.

AG looks bad because he activated a limited-by-x-times vote on a day he was a top wagon in closing on deadline, and then didn't retract it. okay so then, we take that and balance against an AG who fmpov clearly reads as town who made a big blunder w/ the announcer misunderstanding, and all of the sudden it's a town play that was suboptimal. i am not arriving at AG is scum because he played suboptimally from a town role pov, because i read town AG pretty strongly prior to neon's explanation of his announcer role.

obv fypov AG doesn't have that buffer, so "wasting" that extra vote on a cycle where he wasn't a top wagon a bit after he used it, sure that can look scummy, but even then maybe im more willing to give people the space to make suboptimal plays
 
also full disclosure i asked another mod to come in and take a look bc im p sure sam you arent allowed to have copy pasted that host log
Game rule 2, though IPL already gave that clarification he quoted.

That said, people should read the manual/OP please people.

I already said Sam was rubbing me wrong. I was already thinking of starting this wagon.
Unvote, Vote UncleSam.
My annoyance at the manual/OP thing only moved me up by a few hours.
 
Game rule 2, though IPL already gave that clarification he quoted.

That said, people should read the manual/OP please people.
cold feet from this being my first game as a mod and being directly "antagonistic" to sam when it comes to the sides of the argument we're on. and also not having easy contact to ipl aside forum pm
 
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