Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Bold School]

reason number one: spikes
reason number two: second layer of spikes
reason number three: surprise, it's the third layer of fucking spikes

you wanna talk about double standards? let's talk about how gliscor's longevity is double the standard amount because of poison heal

Is that all? It's just the same hazard stack stuff I already addressed. Also, the poison heal longevity thing I already addressed.

So Gliscor heals, is annoying, and can set spikes. It's not the only pokemon that has ever been able to do that. If you feel like the spikes are worse this gen because of the hazard stack problem, run something that deals with spikes.

Furthermore, the most problematic spike setter should be Hamurott because it counters Magic Bounce.

 

[Shinto7654]

I feel like trying to say that Torkoal is perfectly fine to put onto a team for the purpose of Rapid Spin when doing so comes with a whole bunch of team building constraint issues because uhhh Drought is a bit disengenuous, but hey, maybe you're just that smart to play around your own Drought activations on teams not built around it

 

[Moyashi]

If you have a good counterargument, make it instead of trying to handwave me away by saying I'm uninformed or some other deflective nonsense.

Maybe don't make takes that sound like someone who is uninformed? Counterplay to Lando has always been highly accessible and it's never been over bearing in its roles or effectiveness. Gliscor similarly has had such counterplay, and historically hasn't been complained about to the degree it is now (though you can find some people disliking the strength of spdef swords dance sets past gens), but this gen Gliscor is a much different beast.

Define coming up short? Because I don't believe that hazard stack should be nerfed or countered into unviable oblivion. It's fine that it is a viable playstyle. The issue is if it's overpowered or not. I disagree that it's overpowered. As someone who has done everything from running hazard stack teams to facing hazard stack without even having hazards on the team, I really think we have enough tools in the toolbox to deal with it.

We have a supremely short list of good accessible anti hazard options. It's pretty much limited to Thsk, Cinderace and Hatterene. Tusk infamously loses to Gliscor and can't keep hazards off it long term while it often takes a toxic and dies eventually. Cinderace struggles to be relevant vs gliscor because the teams using Gliscor are built to not care if you court change it. It just restacks spikes. Hatt alone is not enough counterplay especially as it struggles to keep hazards off longterm with its lack of longevity and middling bulk.

No one claimed to nerf hazard stack into oblivion. But spikes teams are having an adverse impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

Is that all? It's just the same hazard stack stuff I already addressed. Also, the poison heal longevity thing I already addressed.

So Gliscor heals, is annoying, and can set spikes. It's not the only pokemon that has ever been able to do that. If you feel like the spikes are worse this gen because of the hazard stack problem, run something that deals with spikes.

Furthermore, the most problematic spike setter should be Hamurott because it counters Magic Bounce.

We lack sufficient accessible anti hazard tools. Many lose to Gliscor or struggle vs its teammates.

 

[Bold School]

I feel like trying to say that Torkoal is perfectly fine to put onto a team for the purpose of Rapid Spin when doing so comes with a whole bunch of team building constraint issues because uhhh Drought is a bit disengenuous, but hey, maybe you're just that smart to play around your own Drought activations

What, you never played with a sun team before? There are benefits and downsides, but it obviously depends on your team and what you want. This was also just one of multiple options, so you don't have to put drought on your team if you don't want it. You are really reaching here.

 

[Morkal]

has anyone tried skeledirge on grassy terrain?, no not with grassy seed, just raw skeledirge on grassy terrain, losing its weaking the earthquake increases the list of pokemon it can wall and it pairs pretty good with common grassy terrain mons

Rillaboom and Skeledirge do pair well together, but the main problem with Dirge right now isn't really (just) its Ground weakness imo, it's how hostile the meta is to the Fire/Ghost typing defensively. Most of the time people run Ceruledge if they want the strong benefits of the Fire/Ghost offensive type synergy because Ceruledge is fast, while still having serviceable 75/80/100 bulk with 85 Speed. Skeledirge's defensive synergy is actually worse off at the moment because of its lower speed (base 66), along with having a more exploitable special defense stat of 75 (which, while being paired nicely with 104 HP and 100 defense, means that it's feasted on by Pokemon like Manaphy regardless of Skeledirge's access to Unaware).

If you're looking to make Skeledirge function in OU, pairing it with Rillaboom is definitely a good start, but you'll want to make sure that it can fit with the meta's current whims.

Skeledirge @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 240 HP / 72 Def / 180 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Shadow Ball
- Slack Off
- Yawn​

Here's a set I've been working with that's been quite nice - Yawn forces switches in a way that Dirge normally can't while still maintaining all of Dirge's benefits - the defensive investment will help you a bit more in this current chaotic meta, and the 16 speed EVs bring you up to 172, allowing you to narrow edge out other 0, 4, or 8 EV Skeledirges, 0 Neutral Corv (170), and 20 Neutral Scizor (171) along with speed tying Brute Bonnet. Roar is also an option on Skeledirge on hazard stack teams, and it does have a few other options as well.

Well, maybe you should find that one OU mon instead? Cinderace, Tusk, and Hatterene are all OU. At most, I suggested some UU mons that are very playable in OU. Nothing worse than that or with no other function. I get you are exaggerating with PU for emphases, but I'm really not reaching that far into the abyss here.

I'm not exaggerating though; I posted my OU analysis of a PU (ZU I think now) mon specifically for that emphasis - in regards to mentioning UU mons, I mentioned the Naganadel example from one of the previous gens in my post you quoted. It's not that you have to reach far, it's about the consistency of the amount of times you have to reach.

Something being broken or uncompetitive doesn't just mean "Oh, this threat requires a specific lower tier mon", it also means "Oh, this set of threats enabled by common factors requires that I specifically search for lower tier mons in each category more consistently." Teambuilding suffers as a result because, in order to reliably take out hazard stack to a consistent enough degree, your composition will suffer against other archetypes.

If you'd like, I can type up some examples to help you out with understanding this particular point (like a table or a graph or something to numerically display what people are talking about).

We have a supremely short list of good accessible anti hazard options. It's pretty much limited to Thsk, Cinderace and Hatterene. Tusk infamously loses to Gliscor and can't keep hazards off it long term while it often takes a toxic and dies eventually. Cinderace struggles to be relevant vs gliscor because the teams using Gliscor are built to not care if you court change it. It just restacks spikes. Hatt alone is not enough counterplay especially as it struggles to keep hazards off longterm with its lack of longevity and middling bulk.

No one claimed to nerf hazard stack into oblivion. But spikes teams are having an adverse impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

I'd also like to second this take by Moyashi here - no-one is clamoring for a hardcore hazard stack nerf (at least not that I've seen), a lot of people just want to look at specific elements of hazard stack to isolate whether or not removing them would result in a healthier meta.

 

[Shinto7654]

What, you never played with a sun team before? There are benefits and downsides, but it obviously depends on your team and what you want. This was also just one of multiple options, so you don't have to put drought on your team if you don't want it. You are really reaching here.

It doesn't really matter what your teams wants if you're trying to use Torkoal for Rapid Spin is the point lol. Your team becomes a Sun team because otherwise you're using an awful as fuck Pokemon if you don't take advantage of the Sun it provides. I feel like this isn't exactly hard to understand how thats not the best thing for meta balance and listing in the same way as Tusk and treads is disengenuous

 

[Bold School]

Maybe don't make takes that sound like someone who is uninformed? Counterplay to Lando has always been highly accessible and it's never been over bearing in its roles or effectiveness. Gliscor similarly has had such counterplay, and historically hasn't been complained about to the degree it is now (though you can find some people disliking the strength of spdef swords dance sets past gens), but this gen Gliscor is a much different beast.

Or maybe don't use the uninformed label too quickly just because you don't like the truth? Just saying someone is or looks uninformed doesn't automatically make it so.

Gliscor was never complained about because it almost never had the usage rates like Lando-T did. Once it did, the treatment is very different. It's still a double standard. Too many people on here play favorites. It's why I can never get invested in this community for too long.

We have a supremely short list of good accessible anti hazard options. It's pretty much limited to Thsk, Cinderace and Hatterene. Tusk infamously loses to Gliscor and can't keep hazards off it long term while it often takes a toxic and dies eventually. Cinderace struggles to be relevant vs gliscor because the teams using Gliscor are built to not care if you court change it. It just restacks spikes. Hatt alone is not enough counterplay especially as it struggles to keep hazards off longterm with its lack of longevity and middling bulk.

Tusk can run Ice Spinner, though? Having spikes on both sides of the field should be problematic for them to a degree. You also have the option Hatt bounces back both spikes and toxic, which are two of Gliscor's biggest tools. It is also a special attacker that is likely to force a switch.

Those 3 options are also not the only things you can run, as I addressed.

No one claimed to nerf hazard stack into oblivion. But spikes teams are having an adverse impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

So are spikes the problem? You ban Gliscor and you are going to have a similar "issue" with other spikers. For the record, though, banning spikes or all those spikers people find troublesome would make hazard stack unviable. So it would indeed nerf it into oblivion.

We lack sufficient accessible anti hazard tools. Many lose to Gliscor or struggle vs its teammates.

There are a bit more tools that you have than just the 3 that technically say OU. I've covered that already. You can also bring things that counter those teammates, unless those teammates are too hard to counter. But then that might make them the problem.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So Gliscor heals, is annoying, and can set spikes. It's not the only pokemon that has ever been able to do that.

it's the only thing that's ever been able to do it this well. since "annoying" is subjective and anything can heal with lefties, let's cut those categories out and look at all the other things that, according to the 1630 stats, ran spikes (or ceaseless edge) in ou last month:

• can't afford to stall with protect, so it only gets normal lefties healing. can't heal after knock off. can't spread toxic. vulnerable to spikes unless you go for boots and cut into its longevity
• can't heal outside of lefties and usually doesn't run it. much easier to check offensively. vulnerable to spikes unless you go for boots and cut into its power
• never heals, usually fills a completely different role
• can heal with horn leech or synthesis, but everyone is running waterpon anyway
• only fits on very specific team structures
• doesn't fit on anything
• very offense-based, easy to kill, doesn't heal
• doesn't heal
• everyone's running waterpon instead
• bad
• no recovery outside of lefties anymore
• niche (sorry 1ldk, it really is)
• gimmicky, doesn't heal
• not nearly as fat, vulnerable to toxic
• why are there people even running spikes on this
• niche beyond niche
• only useful on future paradox spam teams
• doesn't heal outside of lefties
• worse gastrodon and worse clodsire simultaneously
• bad (sorry morkal, it really is)
• almost exclusively used on rain teams and barely carries spikes
• i don't think this mon actually exists
• lmao
• double lmao
• triple lmao
• no

none of these are even comparable to gliscor

 

[Talpr0ne]

Well, maybe you should find that one OU mon instead? Cinderace, Tusk, and Hatterene are all OU. At most, I suggested some UU mons that are very playable in OU. Nothing worse than that or with no other function. I get you are exaggerating with PU for emphases, but I'm really not reaching that far into the abyss here.

Cinderace literally does not work as the sole removal against Gliscor because Gliscor can set back spikes against it essentially for free and then once both sides have the same amount of spikes Court Change stops doing anything.

 

[Bold School]

It doesn't really matter what your teams wants if you're trying to use Torkoal for Rapid Spin is the point lol. Your team becomes a Sun team because otherwise you're using an awful as fuck Pokemon if you don't take advantage of the Sun it provides. I feel like this isn't exactly hard to understand how thats not the best thing for meta balance and listing in the same way as Tusk and treads is disengenuous

This is a stupid point because, again, it's just one of several options. Why is it bad having more options? You obviously should pick the options that best fit the team you want to build. Isn't that common sense? Why are you crying about building a sun team if you don't want to build a sun team? Just use one of the other options I mentioned or try something more out of the box?

I'm not exaggerating though; I posted my OU analysis of a PU (ZU I think now) mon specifically for that emphasis - in regards to mentioning UU mons, I mentioned the Naganadel example from one of the previous gens in my post you quoted. It's not that you have to reach far, it's about the consistency of the amount of times you have to reach.

Something being broken or uncompetitive doesn't just mean "Oh, this threat requires a specific lower tier mon", it also means "Oh, this set of threats enabled by common factors requires that I specifically search for lower tier mons in each category more consistently." Teambuilding suffers as a result because, in order to reliably take out hazard stack to a consistent enough degree, your composition will suffer against other archetypes.

If you'd like, I can type up some examples to help you out with understanding this particular point (like a table or a graph or something to numerically display what people are talking about).

I'd also like to second this take by Moyashi here - no-one is clamoring for a hardcore hazard stack nerf (at least not that I've seen), a lot of people just want to look at specific elements of hazard stack to isolate whether or not removing them would result in a healthier meta.

Well, I'm still not sure how much this applies when you have multiple OU staples to begin with. Even the UU ones, to a degree. Going to PU or ZU shouldn't be necessary, but I applaud you for going out of the box.

I get that you folks are saying it isn't enough, but there should be some reasonable middle ground here where you can think outside the box a little bit and it not be a meta crushing problem. Maybe you can provide a chart and I'll look at it. But right now, I don't think it's really as bad as people are saying.

IMO, this Meta isn't going to be healthy as long as Tera is a thing. It enables too much abuse. And as soon as Gliscor is banned, multiple other threats are going to make HO over-dominant again. There is simply too much power creep in gen 9. But this isn't a hazard stack problem. It's a tera and power creep problem.

 

[Bold School]

it's the only thing that's ever been able to do it this well. since "annoying" is subjective and anything can heal with lefties, let's cut those categories out and look at all the other things that, according to the 1630 stats, ran spikes (or ceaseless edge) in ou last month:

• can't afford to stall with protect, so it only gets normal lefties healing. can't heal after knock off. can't spread toxic. vulnerable to spikes unless you go for boots and cut into its longevity
• can't heal outside of lefties and usually doesn't run it. much easier to check offensively. vulnerable to spikes unless you go for boots and cut into its power
• never heals, usually fills a completely different role
• can heal with horn leech or synthesis, but everyone is running waterpon anyway
• only fits on very specific team structures
• doesn't fit on anything
• very offense-based, easy to kill, doesn't heal
• doesn't heal
• everyone's running waterpon instead
• bad
• no recovery outside of lefties anymore
• niche (sorry 1ldk, it really is)
• gimmicky, doesn't heal
• not nearly as fat, vulnerable to toxic
• why are there people even running spikes on this
• niche beyond niche
• only useful on future paradox spam teams
• doesn't heal outside of lefties
• worse gastrodon and worse clodsire simultaneously
• bad (sorry morkal, it really is)
• almost exclusively used on rain teams and barely carries spikes
• i don't think this mon actually exists
• lmao
• double lmao
• triple lmao
• no

none of these are even comparable to gliscor

I was talking about in prior gens as well, but fine. So Gliscor is better at both those things in this gen. Ok... You still have to run Toxic Orb to get that healing. So discounting Leftovers seems a bit disingenuous to me. They are both item based healing. Glisor can't run Roost. It is illegal this gen. It's not really a healer without an item.

Talking about defensive weaknesses is another double standard since Gliscor loses to all special attackers and some physical attackers without specific Tera types. If you wanted to nitpick that badly, that is. Of course, it's a good defensive mon. So are other things.

Cinderace literally does not work as the sole removal against Gliscor because Gliscor can set back spikes against it essentially for free and then once both sides have the same amount of spikes Court Change stops doing anything.

Then you are even. Hazard stack teams tend to invest multiple mons into getting up hazards and keeping them, so a team that doesn't have that investment should be similar to playing with a pokemon advantage. You can build a team that doesn't care about hazards as much. You can build a team that has regenerator mons. There are lots of things you can do.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I was talking about in prior gens as well, but fine. So Gliscor is better at both those things in this gen. Ok... You still have to run Toxic Orb to get that healing. So discounting Leftovers seems a bit disingenuous to me. They are both item based healing. Glisor can't run Roost. It is illegal this gen. It's not really a healer without an item.

ok, this is definite proof that you're not actually playing the game. the major difference between gliscor's healing and leftovers healing, besides the fact that poison heal heals twice as much, is that you only need the item for one turn. once you're poisoned, you no longer need the toxic orb and can get knocked off without losing your healing. this can always be accomplished by protecting on turn 1 to prevent knock off or another status condition from getting in the way. meanwhile, if you knock off lefties, the healing stops

 

[RedShiftS]

Tbh, my firsts thought on ogerpon water was : « Ban ban ban », but now I find him very good but not broken.

Ogerpon litteraly wall , force to tera, same with , wall , kill with knock off. But have a weakness with the core, good stallbreaker. And generally weak to sticky because most of sticky team run powerful special and physical wallbreaker can kill him like and many others.
For the Gliscor suspect, I think if I got reqs I’ll vote ban, too oppressive for now.

 

[Bakugames]

You still have to run Toxic Orb to get that healing. So discounting Leftovers seems a bit disingenuous to me. They are both item based healing. Glisor can't run Roost. It is illegal this gen. It's not really a healer without an item.

Poison heal gliscor is so good that if gliscor had roost it would almost never run it. It is extremely easy to bring your gliscor safely, tank a hit or protect and now you're a knock absorber immune to status that has an easy time shrugging off hits and setting spikes, putting foes on a counter and healing. What this means is that you can bring back your gliscor over and over again, set spikes up and wear down the other team. Cinderace? Cool, you threaten to 2hko, or can just start setting up spikes again on its face and the court change was almost worthless. Tusk? if its not ice spinner its worthless, can't get in without fearing a toxic, and ice spinner sets means gliscor teammates can enter in much easier. Hatt has a good matchup vs gliscor but gliscor will win the attrition war as you chip it and glisc heals in the switches.

 

[Moyashi]

Or maybe don't use the uninformed label too quickly just because you don't like the truth? Just saying someone is or looks uninformed doesn't automatically make it so.

Gliscor was never complained about because it almost never had the usage rates like Lando-T did. Once it did, the treatment is very different. It's still a double standard. Too many people on here play favorites. It's why I can never get invested in this community for too long.

"Truth". Oh boy.

Gliscor isn't being complained about due to its high usage. That's wholely untrue and the kind of comment that deserves being called uninformed. Many have already discussed why its being complained about.

Tusk can run Ice Spinner, though? Having spikes on both sides of the field should be problematic for them to a degree. You also have the option Hatt bounces back both spikes and toxic, which are two of Gliscor's biggest tools. It is also a special attacker that is likely to force a switch.

Those 3 options are also not the only things you can run, as I addressed.

Ice spinner doesn't do enough to Gliscor which can protect for health, especially after toxicing Tusk, and put it on a fast ticking timer that makes it very difficult to do what it's supposed to.

Those three are the only splashable, accessible answers to hazards and two of them aren't even good into gliscor. This limits teambuilding significantly.

 

[Morkal]

Well, I'm still not sure how much this applies when you have multiple OU staples to begin with. Even the UU ones, to a degree. Going to PU or ZU shouldn't be necessary, but I applaud you for going out of the box.

I get that you folks are saying it isn't enough, but there should be some reasonable middle ground here where you can think outside the box a little bit and it not be a meta crushing problem. Maybe you can provide a chart and I'll look at it. But right now, I don't think it's really as bad as people are saying.

IMO, this Meta isn't going to be healthy as long as Tera is a thing. It enables too much abuse. And as soon as Gliscor is banned, multiple other threats are going to make HO over-dominant again. There is simply too much power creep in gen 9. But this isn't a hazard stack problem. It's a tera and power creep problem.

I think this chart example I drafted up will display what I mean the best (sorry it took a little longer to post, formatting can be a bit of a nightmare sometimes and this took quite a while for me to type). I've been meaning to type something like this for a while, as I feel it'll reliably show a different type of numerical perspective of just how much pressure hazard-stack teams exert on team building right now.

Gholdengo​	Gliscor​	Samurott-Hisui​	Greninja​	Ribombee​	Great Tusk​	Glimmora​	Ting-Lu​
Function: Multi-faceted Defog/Spin Blocker​	Function: Spikes/Stall​	Function: Spikes Offense​	Function: Spikes Offense​	Function: Webs Offense​	Function: Spin + Rocks, Multi-Faceted​	Function: Toxic Debris + Spikes + Rocks + Spin​	Function: Defensive Rocks + Spikes​

We'll just focus on these eight for now (others like Clefable, Toxapex, Heatran, etc. also contribute to the hazard game, but we won't go overboard here - it's not meant to be a list it's meant to illustrate a point) and how with just these eight alone, they warp the hazard metagame to an unhealthy degree.

You mentioned Cinderace, Tusk, and Hatterene in your post as being OU options; however, what do those three Pokemon do against just the eight that I mentioned, along with different set variants? Let's look at Tusk to demonstrate - we'll grade based on the following qualifications:

Category Name​	Point Value​
Reliable Performance​	1​
Inconsistent​	0.5​
Poor Performance​	0​

Now we're going to apply this system to the chart as demonstrated in full here.

Tusk vs Ghold	Tusk vs Gliscor	Tusk vs Hamu	Tusk vs Greninja	Tusk vs Ribom	Tusk vs Glimm	Tusk vs Ting-Lu
Offensive Tusks - Loses to Scarf, can lose to Air Balloon; Ghold Rapid Spin Immune	Offensive Tusks - 4x SE Ice Spinner can almost never OHKO Defensive Gliscor (with Choice Band, 4x SE Ice Spinner only has a 56.3% chance to OHKO). All (non-situational Tera Blast) offensive variants are blanked by Tera Water Gliscor.	Offensive Tusks - While it doesn't relish the idea of switching into Ham - as long as Tusk can outspeed (and as long as Ham's focus sash is broken), you're generally in a decent, albeit very shaky check spot.	Offensive Tusks - Outsped and melted by Greninja's powerful attacks (opponent can use Tusk to get a Battle Bond boost).	Offensive Tusks - Outsped and melted by Ribombee's powerful Moonblast, Tusk has to run comparatively functionally limited Rock coverage to have a chance to OHKO Ribombee (Focus Sash is also a thing)	Offensive Tusks - Glimmora must run a Timid nature to outspeed fully invested 252+ speed Tusk. Rapid Spin + Tusk's STABs handle it cleanly most of the time. Spiky Shield is still an issue along with Mortal Spin, especially if Glim user predicts Tusk Spin or Tusk Knock.	Offensive Tusks - Ting-Lu does not like taking super effective STAB Close Combats from Great Tusk - can only phase Tusk or chunk Tusk with Ruination.
Defensive Tusks - Loses to Specs, can lose to Nasty Plot; Ghold Rapid Spin Immune	Defensive Tusks - Lose to Toxic, outsped most of the time by uninvested speed Gliscor, worn down to the point of becoming setup fodder.	Defensive Tusks - It's a toss-up, Razor Shell/Liquidation are the bane of Tusks's existence. Hamurott feasts on defensive mons without recovery options.	Defensive Tusks - Outsped and melted by Greninja's powerful attacks, even more vulnerable than offensive sets because they don't put off the same power to dissuade Greninja from staying in/being sent in.	Defensive Tusks - Outsped and melted by Ribombee's powerful Moonblast, cannot 2HKO Ribombee without comparatively functionally limited Rock coverage.	Defensive Tusks - Easier to play around, but Glimmora still does not like dealing with Tusk for the same reasons as listed above.	Defensive Tusks - Ting-Lu likes dealing with defensive Tusk a little more, but it's still heavily in Tusk's favor.
Result - Inconsistent: Tusk's weak Special Defense is very easily preyed on by Gholdengo, and different Gholdengo sets handle different Tusk variants.	Result - Poor Performance: Tusk cannot handle Gliscor most of the time - even banded Ice Spinner cannot OHKO reliably. -	Result - Inconsistent: Tusk and Hamurott do not like to switch into each other, yet they both can check each other in a way.	Result - Poor Performance: Tusk may be able to OHKO Greninja with the right prediction on a switch, but neither offensive nor defensive sets can even remotely consistently handle Greninja's high speed and powerful special attacks.	Result - Poor Performance: Tusk cannot handle Ribombee without limiting its coverage options, especially on the defensive side.	Result - Reliable Performance: While Glimmora can play around Tusks's defensive sets with the right prediction, more often than not Glimmora becomes fodder for Tusk in the long run.	Result - Reliable Performance: Ting-Lu is very good at what it does, which is why Great Tusk is very good at pressuring Ting-Lu in its main roles.
0.5 Points	0 Points	0.5 Points	0 Points	0 Points	1 Point	1 Point

Great Tusk scores a total of 3 points out of a possible 7 points, scoring a 42.8571429% point ratio against just these OU hazard setters, which is an F grade (I didn't even include other ones that Great Tusk can't handle such as Clefable).

Utilizing this same system - Cinderace scores 4.5 out of a possible 7 points (which is a D grade, roughly 64.3%) while Hatterene scores 4 out of a possible 7 points (which is an F grade, roughly 57%).

The three Pokemon you mentioned mathematically cannot reliably handle the standard sets of these hazard setters to a consistent enough degree to allow for them to be what is considered a "healthy" option to handle the problems with hazard. I'd like to mention that these are just standard sets - there are additional niche sets being experimented with by all of the hazard-mons that can invalidate sets even further. This is the point that myself and multiple others have been trying to explain here - when even the best of the best cannot achieve passing grades, the whole team suffers as you have to additionally compensate for those shortcomings in a way that leaves your team woefully underprepared for a large amount of the metagame's other options. Whether you dip into UU, RU, or even all the way down in ZU, team building will be pressured to an unhealthy degree due to these meta-interactions. It's not about being able to handle specific options, it's about how the person building a team feels strained to be able to reliably handle enough of the numerous, overwhelming amount of options that cannot be consistently prepared for. This is also why people feel that Gholdengo getting the whomp might help with hazard's presence in the meta because it will allow for comparatively easier Rapid Spin/Defogs across the board. I hope this clears things up a little bit!

 

[Welcome to mars]

it's the only thing that's ever been able to do it this well. since "annoying" is subjective and anything can heal with lefties, let's cut those categories out and look at all the other things that, according to the 1630 stats, ran spikes (or ceaseless edge) in ou last month:

• can't afford to stall with protect, so it only gets normal lefties healing. can't heal after knock off. can't spread toxic. vulnerable to spikes unless you go for boots and cut into its longevity
• can't heal outside of lefties and usually doesn't run it. much easier to check offensively. vulnerable to spikes unless you go for boots and cut into its power
• never heals, usually fills a completely different role
• can heal with horn leech or synthesis, but everyone is running waterpon anyway
• only fits on very specific team structures
• doesn't fit on anything
• very offense-based, easy to kill, doesn't heal
• doesn't heal
• everyone's running waterpon instead
• bad
• no recovery outside of lefties anymore
• niche (sorry 1ldk, it really is)
• gimmicky, doesn't heal
• not nearly as fat, vulnerable to toxic
• why are there people even running spikes on this
• niche beyond niche
• only useful on future paradox spam teams
• doesn't heal outside of lefties
• worse gastrodon and worse clodsire simultaneously
• bad (sorry morkal, it really is)
• almost exclusively used on rain teams and barely carries spikes
• i don't think this mon actually exists
• lmao
• double lmao
• triple lmao
• no

none of these are even comparable to gliscor

THERE IS ANOTHER, TWO 4X WEAKNESSES, PASSIVE AS THEY CAN BE WITHOUT HEALING AND WEAK TO PEBBLES, HE GOT 364/325/393 EVIOLITE BULK THO

 

[Bold School]

ok, this is definite proof that you're not actually playing the game. the major difference between gliscor's healing and leftovers healing, besides the fact that poison heal heals twice as much, is that you only need the item for one turn. once you're poisoned, you no longer need the toxic orb and can get knocked off without losing your healing. this can always be accomplished by protecting on turn 1 to prevent knock off or another status condition from getting in the way. meanwhile, if you knock off lefties, the healing stops

No it isn't. First of all, I was talking about the hypocrisy between when Lando-T when it was overcentralizing, which isn't now, versus Gliscor being that high usage which is now. That is why I put past gens in here.

Second, this is another dismissively arrogant statement by you that can't be backed up by facts. The poison heal point has been addressed several times by now. It's not like this ability was just introduced to the pokemon franchise.

Third, you clearly shifted the goalposts here with Knock Off. As for Gliscor being better for Knock Off, yeah, IF you get a turn before you take the Knock Off. If you don't, you lose the Toxic Orb and the Healing. Most Gliscor run protect for that reason and the extra recovery, but at the end of the day, it's still item based heals. Knock Off wasn't part of the initial argument, though. You just added another qualification that is mostly a different thing.

A Regenerator pokemon would an even better healing ability. They don't have Spikes. But some do have Toxic Spikes.

Poison heal gliscor is so good that if gliscor had roost it would almost never run it. It is extremely easy to bring your gliscor safely, tank a hit or protect and now you're a knock absorber immune to status that has an easy time shrugging off hits and setting spikes, putting foes on a counter and healing. What this means is that you can bring back your gliscor over and over again, set spikes up and wear down the other team. Cinderace? Cool, you threaten to 2hko, or can just start setting up spikes again on its face and the court change was almost worthless. Tusk? if its not ice spinner its worthless, can't get in without fearing a toxic, and ice spinner sets means gliscor teammates can enter in much easier. Hatt has a good matchup vs gliscor but gliscor will win the attrition war as you chip it and glisc heals in the switches.

I know what Gliscor does. The issue is if it is op or not. Wearing down the team via toxic stall or spikes or whatever is not new to the game.

If Tusk without Ice Spinner is a problem, just run Ice Spinner. The Cinderace point has been addressed multiple times now. Hat beating Gliscor is fine. Add recovery like wish or offensive mons that can break through the other teams. Literally 2/3rds of these beat Gliscor. You have options.

"Truth". Oh boy.

Gliscor isn't being complained about due to its high usage. That's wholely untrue and the kind of comment that deserves being called uninformed. Many have already discussed why its being complained about.

High usage wasn't the only thing I brought up as comparable reasons to Lando-T that apply to Gliscor. And if your only other sticking point is spikes and hazard stack, I have addressed that multiple times as well. But sure, ignore all that to make a straw man.

Ice spinner doesn't do enough to Gliscor which can protect for health, especially after toxicing Tusk, and put it on a fast ticking timer that makes it very difficult to do what it's supposed to.

Depends on the set, both for Tusk and Gliscor. Some sets are more offensive. I would very much disagree that Tusk isn't good into Gliscor if it has Ice Spinner, as long as a sub isn't already up.

Those three are the only splashable, accessible answers to hazards and two of them aren't even good into gliscor. This limits teambuilding significantly.

Splashable and accessible are quite the vaguely subjective qualifiers. I listed 5 mons. You say 3. We didn't cover Defog, which Gholdengo counters, but could still be an ok secondary option. I admit it depends on the team comp, but this idea that you are limited to 3 isn't really true.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Great Tusk scores a total of 3 points out of a possible 7 points, scoring a 42.8571429% point ratio against just these OU hazard setters, which is an F grade (I didn't even include other ones that Great Tusk can't handle such as Clefable).

Utilizing this same system - Cinderace scores 4.5 out of a possible 7 points (which is a D grade, roughly 64.3%) while Hatterene scores 4 out of a possible 7 points (which is an F grade, roughly 57%).

i think we should be using a different grading metric than the american education system's, which frankly is absolute fucking garbage—as seen here where it's undercutting how tusk is still an extremely reliable spinner despite its poor matchups into many setters because it serves as a blanket check to so many other non-setters (especially kingambit)—but i do agree with your overall point, hazards are bullshit right now

 

[Finchinator]

People should probably stop engaging Bold School. It’s going to spiral into multiple pages of nobody going anywhere as he clearly isn’t informed, but pushes the narrative as if he is more than the rest of us.

Anyone comparing Gliscor to Lando-T stand-alone already kind of outs themselves as not getting it. That doesn’t even touch on the other things like the ignorant hazard commentary. Best to just move on from here.

 

[Morkal]

i think we should be using a different grading metric than the american education system's, which frankly is absolute fucking garbage—as seen here where it's undercutting how tusk is still an extremely reliable spinner despite its poor matchups into many setters because it serves as a blanket check to so many other non-setters (especially kingambit)—but i do agree with your overall point, hazards are bullshit right now

Yeah, I agree - the system still needs some work. I'm hoping to be able to utilize it for future posts, but I feel that there's a very good foundation in place for it at the moment and that the content breakdown still signifies exactly what Tusk is competing against on the hazard front. If you have a suggestion for a grading alternative I'm all ears! I could utilize multiple grades for different functionalities (categorical grades) and that could maybe work, but it's a new system so it'll likely have to be trial and error.

 

[Bold School]

People should probably stop engaging Bold School. It’s going to spiral into multiple pages of nobody going anywhere as he clearly isn’t informed, but pushes the narrative as if he is more than the rest of us.

Anyone comparing Gliscor to Lando-T stand-alone already kind of outs themselves as not getting it. That doesn’t even touch on the other things like the ignorant hazard commentary. Best to just move on from here.

No. It is some of you guys, not all, but a notable few, who act like you are more than the rest of us. I don't want to argue with a mod, and the fact you responded in this way means it has clearly gone to the point where the patience for this discord is limited. Fine. However, the way you just called me uninformed and essentially a troll speaks to the issues with Smogon's elitism. And I really am sad (not surprised, but sad) to see that from a mod of all people. So I will say one last thing before I screw off for the day like you clearly want.

Sure, I have an unpopular opinion. Sure, Gliscor is somewhat different to Lando-T in that it has Poison Heal. I acknowledged that much in my initial comment, though many on here seemed to have missed that part somehow. Most of my actual points hadn't been debunked, though. If those were in the process of being debunked, we may never know. So my non-debunked points still stand. Tough crap.

I was about to address Morkal's charts next, which was actually very interesting and I felt could have bee good conversation. However, I fear that this conversation has been forced to prematurely run it's course. The mod has spoken. It's been heavily hinted that it is time to change the topic. So be it. I know when I'm indirectly being told to quit.

Maybe another time, I can come on here pretending to have a PC populist opinion like everyone else. I can play favorites defending or hating on all the popular pokemon and mechanics like everyone else. Maybe that will be taken better. Goodbye.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Yeah, I agree - the system still needs some work. I'm hoping to be able to utilize it for future posts, but I feel that there's a very good foundation in place for it at the moment and that the content breakdown still signifies exactly what Tusk is competing against on the hazard front. If you have a suggestion for a grading alternative I'm all ears! I could utilize multiple grades for different functionalities (categorical grades) and that could maybe work, but it's a new system so it'll likely have to be trial and error.

i think letter grades themselves are fine, but the percentages the grading system uses are extremely fucked. so i propose we use a grading system that has the percentages spread out equally to make actual sense—or as i like to call it, the "i paid for the whole scale, i'm gonna use the whole scale" system:
a: 100% to 80% (≥95% is a+, ≤85% is a-)
b: 79.999…% to 60% (≥75% is b+, ≤65% is b-)
c: 59.999…% to 40% (≥55% is c+, ≤45% is c-)
d: 39.999…% to 20% (≥35% is d+, ≤25% is d-)
f: 19.999…% to 0% (≥15% is f+, ≤5% is f-)
under this system, tusk's score from your analysis would put it at a c-, hatterene at a c+, and cinderace at a high b-

 

[Finchinator]

However, the way you just called me uninformed and essentially a troll speaks to the issues with Smogon's elitism

I have literally spent dozens of my hours changing the structure of OU to be transparent and based off of public data rather than just a small council chat behind closed doors. You have no clue what you’re talking about. Smogon OU is less elitist now than ever.

Your posts did not reflect the reality of the metagame and this thread has tendencies to go into wild tangents — as we saw with the lock yesterday. I am trying to prevent that from happening again. Going out of your way to take shots that couldn’t be further from the truth is just being an ass.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

So be it. I know when I'm indirectly being told to quit.

i don't think you do, seeing as how you decided to not only keep responding but respond in a way that insults everyone else in the thread and especially the people with the power to ban you. so i'll be direct: stop it. you're embarrassing yourself and making enemies you didn't need to make