Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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i think letter grades themselves are fine, but the percentages the grading system uses are extremely fucked. so i propose we use a grading system that has the percentages spread out equally to make actual sense:
a: 100% to 80% (≥95% is a+, ≤85% is a-)
b: 79.999…% to 60% (≥75% is b+, ≤65% is b-)
c: 59.999…% to 40% (≥55% is c+, ≤45% is c-)
d: 39.999…% to 20% (≥35% is d+, ≤25% is d-)
f: 19.999…% to 0% (≥15% is f+, ≤5% is f-)
under this system, tusk's score from your analysis would put it at a c-, hatterene at a c+, and cinderace at a high b-

This is a great idea, thanks man! Additionally, it was suggested to me on Discord that I also multiply by usage stats to grade based on different facets of the meta/Pokemon movesets. I'm gonna take this info and the Discord info and further improve the chart grade system - I'll try to use it again ASAP when I find a discussion or debate situation that needs it (I'm also coming up with an additional resource thread idea which I'm hoping to post before the new year, but it might have to wait until 2024 depending on my schedule).

I have literally spent dozens of my hours changing the structure of OU to be transparent and based off of public data rather than just a small council chat behind closed doors. You have no clue what you’re talking about. Smogon OU is less elitist now than ever.

Your posts did not reflect the reality of the metagame and this thread has tendencies to go into wild tangents — as we saw with the lock yesterday. I am trying to prevent that from happening again. Going out of your way to take shots that couldn’t be further from the truth is just being an ass.

I'd like to also bring up that, in my however many years on Smogon at this point (essentially since Gen 5), Gen 9 has been the LEAST elitist out of all of the generations and is a very welcoming community right now - communication between staff, contribs, users, etc. has been at comparatively seamless levels, and the surveys are doing great and people (myself included) really enjoy them. People have overall been accepting of fringe opinions as long as they're backed up with functional data (whether it be huge posts like my sub-OU analysis works, along with other analysis works like replay analysis, tourney plays, group research projects, etc). From what I've seen and felt, Smogon's in quite a nice spot right now - more so than in the past in my opinion.

If Smogon were as elitist as was claimed, then all of my big posts, and many other posts by many others for that matter, would have been laughed out of the room - but there's been great back-and-forth dialogue throughout the generation so far, and I really hope to see it continue because this is the most fun I've had interacting with the competitive community since Gen 5's weather wars (still love that meta).
 
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the suspect process is a fucking joke actually. I'm so tired of seeing "OUVT " people playing stall because it's ladder cheese. tournament results actually mean something, not ladder shit.

this take is absolutely unhinged. so you want people to battle it out in tours for suspect reqs or something?
No. It is some of you guys, not all, but a notable few, who act like you are more than the rest of us. I don't want to argue with a mod, and the fact you responded in this way means it has clearly gone to the point where the patience for this discord is limited. Fine. However, the way you just called me uninformed and essentially a troll speaks to the issues with Smogon's elitism. And I really am sad (not surprised, but sad) to see that from a mod of all people. So I will say one last thing before I screw off for the day like you clearly want.

Sure, I have an unpopular opinion. Sure, Gliscor is somewhat different to Lando-T in that it has Poison Heal. I acknowledged that much in my initial comment, though many on here seemed to have missed that part somehow. Most of my actual points hadn't been debunked, though. If those were in the process of being debunked, we may never know. So my non-debunked points still stand. Tough crap.

I was about to address Morkal's charts next, which was actually very interesting and I felt could have bee good conversation. However, I fear that this conversation has been forced to prematurely run it's course. The mod has spoken. It's been heavily hinted that it is time to change the topic. So be it. I know when I'm indirectly being told to quit.

Maybe another time, I can come on here pretending to have a PC populist opinion like everyone else. I can play favorites defending or hating on all the popular pokemon and mechanics like everyone else. Maybe that will be taken better. Goodbye.

no youre just asserting your uninformed opinion here and all of your posts replying to others have been in a very insulting and demeaning tone. and you wonder why finch is telling you to get out
 
People should probably stop engaging Bold School. It’s going to spiral into multiple pages of nobody going anywhere as he clearly isn’t informed, but pushes the narrative as if he is more than the rest of us.

Anyone comparing Gliscor to Lando-T stand-alone already kind of outs themselves as not getting it. That doesn’t even touch on the other things like the ignorant hazard commentary. Best to just move on from here.
Liberal Elites like you are ruining this website and i can no longer stand idly by:afrostar:
 
even that has nothing to do with it, people clown on good players with shit takes all the time (for example, the "we should be able to copyright teams" post, or vert's views on darkrai), but my skills are nothing to write home about and very few people give me any shit even though i have some wack-ass takes sometimes. what's the difference? i can admit when i'm wrong, like i was with gira-a, and with gholdengo, and with gliscor early in the dlc

Absolutely - there is nothing bad about admitting when you're wrong about something or made a mistake (hell, I'm right there with you, I was totally wrong on Gliscor early in the DLC as well. I definitely want Darkrai retested when DLC 2 rolls around though, so who knows, maybe we'll be right about Darkrai being balanced in DLC 2, or maybe we'll be wrong). Hot takes are literally just that, hot takes, and as long as you can back them up and appropriately respond to criticism, all is good! One of my biggest hot takes is that Bug-type is actually one of the best typings in OU right now thanks to its resistance to Fighting/Ground-type attacks (and Grass-type attacks to a lesser extent), along with the ubiquitous nature of U-Turn, Sticky Webs, and a wide variety of splashable team options.
Liberal Elites like you are ruining this website and i can no longer stand idly by:afrostar:

Big Smog is marking up the price of prescription potions by thousands of Pokedollars and we will not stand for it!
 
I definitely want Darkrai retested when DLC 2 rolls around though, so who knows, maybe we'll be right about Darkrai being balanced in DLC 2, or maybe we'll be wrong
oh, dlc2, maybe, but you have to remember that there were a lot of people who wanted it to be retested or even straight-up dropped at the beginning of this dlc, and there were some very respectable players emitting takes like "actually darkrai's best set is 4 attacks + boots, nasty plot and hypnosis are noob bait". now, i still think darkrai would be bullshit in dlc2 unless the leaks missed something big or all of the new additions not listed in the dex are ou-viable and beat it, but i wouldn't be averse to including it on a survey again. maybe i'd support a retest in what i believe to be the unlikely event of a tera or tera blast ban, but as of right now, nasty plot + hypnosis + dark pulse + fairy tera blast rolls over damn near the whole pokedex on its own
 
I’m just saying, if we banned Gliscor. We’d have a viable spinner that could 1v1 Ghold.

IMG_0795.png
 
oh, dlc2, maybe, but you have to remember that there were a lot of people who wanted it to be retested or even straight-up dropped at the beginning of this dlc, and there were some very respectable players emitting takes like "actually darkrai's best set is 4 attacks + boots, nasty plot and hypnosis are noob bait". now, i still think darkrai would be bullshit in dlc2 unless the leaks missed something big or all of the new additions not listed in the dex are ou-viable and beat it, but i wouldn't be averse to including it on a survey again

In all honesty - I think whether Darkrai would be balanced in DLC2 or not will depend on the status of Tera. Mono-Dark typing with 70/90/90 bulk is a bit lacking (serviceable at best) for what it needs to do, and while 135 SpA and 125 Spe are great - Darkrai needs Nasty Plot to break through particularly threats, while other formerly OU gone Ubers mons like Chi-Yu can break through things without a boost thanks to its ability and superior offensive type combination. Darkrai's offensive coverage without Tera Blast is pretty predictable (albeit a bit scary because of Ice Beam). Personally, I feel that it'll be a great A-rank mon, but we'll see once the new meta rolls around in December.

I’m just saying, if we banned Gliscor. We’d have a viable spinner that could 1v1 Ghold.

View attachment 568123

Toedscruel has been slept on this entire generation - Mycelium Might is an incredible ability, Toedscruel has a great highly varied movepool, a superb stat spread, and fantastic offensive typing. STAB Earth Power with STAB Giga Drain/Leaf Storm/Energy Ball, coverage is Dazzling Gleam, Flash Cannon, and Sludge Bomb - Utility in Knock Off, Foul Play, SubSeed, Screens access, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Spore, Rapid Spin, Taunt, Trick Room, and more? Sign me up - great, highly underrated mon in OU. It'll get even better when/if Gliscor gets the proverbial yeet.
 
oh, dlc2, maybe, but you have to remember that there were a lot of people who wanted it to be retested or even straight-up dropped at the beginning of this dlc, and there were some very respectable players emitting takes like "actually darkrai's best set is 4 attacks + boots, nasty plot and hypnosis are noob bait". now, i still think darkrai would be bullshit in dlc2 unless the leaks missed something big or all of the new additions not listed in the dex are ou-viable and beat it, but i wouldn't be averse to including it on a survey again. maybe i'd support a retest in what i believe to be the unlikely event of a tera or tera blast ban, but as of right now, nasty plot + hypnosis + dark pulse + fairy tera blast rolls over damn near the whole pokedex on its own

darkrai should definitely come back at the start of DLC2, no doubt about it imo. if chien-pao was kept in the tier for 4 months before finally banning it via suspect test pre-HOME before eventually getting unbanned at the start of HOME then unbanning darkrai during the indigo disk would not be too outrageous by comparison. people wanting to retest a D-rank uber that hasnt been seen in a mainline game for half a decade is perfectly valid to me, though i do think it should only be retested then. unbanning it at the start of this DLC would have been a shitshow given how chaotic the metagame was on release
 
This discussion has been had on here before, so I don't want to get too into it, but Dynmax could be soft stalled by protect, endure, and faster or prankster substitute users. You could also use something like Destiny Bond, Ditto, or Red Card after the Dynamax ended to deal with the boosts. It's not healthy for a metagame, but saying there was no other way to deal with it besides to Dynamax your own mon was never strictly speaking true.

Dynamax had a turn limit. Tera doesn't. Tera has less limits than even Dynamax did. So far, many more pokemon have been banned in this gen. There are multiple factors for this, but Tera is definitely one of them. Furthermore, let's not pretend that using your own Tera to come back when the opponent has used theirs hasn't been a thing this gen. It absolutely has.
This post definitely smells of someone who didn’t experience Dynamax when it was legal and I’m bit surprised anyone is defending it outside of Verlisify’s YouTube or Discord or what ever.
Dynamax meta was a slug fest where for 3 turns you effectively had cheat-codes enabled and could enable them at any time. It completely dumb down the game. Teams were either HO or Stall, with games revolving around when players used their Dynamax and instantly snowball their way to victory, or be reversed swept with Ditto, who was on a majority of teams.
Counterplay was either using gimmickmons like Ditto, hoping your Dynamax cane out on top, or Dynamaxing bulky Pokemon while spamming Max Guard. The “counterplay” you list involves having to sack (multiple of) your own Pokemon or your opponent basically intentionally throwing. And you completely gloss over all the staple counterplay like Encore, Phasing, or threatening out typical sweepers.
In no way a type change with funky STAB mechanics remotely as busted as Dynamax in any way shape or form, and saying otherwise is incredibly dishonest.
 
I mean, if it werent for the fact that Leafeon has less HP than a sheet of paper, I would try and use it as a Wogre blocker, given its 130 ass defense and natural resistance to BOTH stabs. Too bad its a pure grass type with 65/65 hp/special defense. Would be the best eeveelution for the meta otherwise.
i was about to do a whole "if only there was some mon that [detailed description of ferrothorn]" bit, but the last thing we need right now is another spikes setter
 
as we saw with the lock yesterday.
okay tbf tho, didn't the thread get locked because some dipshit put a oneliner after a mod said to stop posting oneliners?

also to keep this itself from being a one-liner, may i present to OU: the ULTIMATE PERFECT GLISCOR COUNTER

Hoopa @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Hyperspace Hole
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
 
I mean, if it werent for the fact that Leafeon has less HP than a sheet of paper, I would try and use it as a Wogre blocker, given its 130 ass defense and natural resistance to BOTH stabs. Too bad its a pure grass type with 65/65 hp/special defense. Would be the best eeveelution for the meta otherwise.

U-turn says hello :)

That 95 base speed is unfortunate, I'm used to seeing Leafeon in Randbats where it's unironically fast due to leveling.

As far as a pure grass mon goes, people have been using Rillaboom as a decent Waterpon check on terrain teams. It's not bad but still takes a chunk to U-turn.
 
U-turn says hello :)

That 95 base speed is unfortunate, I'm used to seeing Leafeon in Randbats where it's unironically fast due to leveling.

As far as a pure grass mon goes, people have been using Rillaboom as a decent Waterpon check on terrain teams. It's not bad but still takes a chunk to U-turn.
CB Tera Grass Rillaboom is also chunking Ogerpon-W really hard. I think Grassy Glide does 83% minimum, while CB Tera Grass Wood Hammer will be OHKOing partners like Cinderace if you get the read lol.
 
CB Tera Grass Rillaboom is also chunking Ogerpon-W really hard. I think Grassy Glide does 83% minimum, while CB Tera Grass Wood Hammer will be OHKOing partners like Cinderace if you get the read lol.

Good point. Yeah, Rilla is a pretty strong mon against Waterpon all around. I don't think many balance teams will pivot into Ace (too valuable to risk); usually the switch in will be Gambit if they have one since the bulk invested variants avoid the 2HKO from Wood Hammer.
 
Looking at the results, an average of approx 5.5/10 for enjoyment and competitive is proof the council hasn't found the answer to running a successful gen 9 metagame (if the measure is a competitive and enjoyable game). Previous gens have felt similar, most notably playing with Z moves for so long.

Getting data from the community is a good start, though it is one thing to ask whether its enjoyable/competitive, and another to ask WHY it is or isnt enjoyable/competitive. Does the council know why these results are poor? Qualitative data would be important here to really find answers.

It looks like the same methods will be used to progress the metagame, suspect testing one by one, and the philosophies stay the same. Will this get the game to a 9/10? Probably not at this rate. Because the processes and philosophies aren't very rigid with the quick turnarounds of Pokemon being drip fed, the metagame is stuck in an endless cycle of being an unsatisfactory experience for the player. This isn't Nintendo, Smogon has the option of having a lot more freedom if it chooses.

My two cents on why the meta isn't as fun or competitive as it could be - things that cause wild unpredictability (tera), Pokemon countering/beating Pokemon they inherently weren't suppose to (tera), extremely high influence/restrictions on teambuilding (hazards), quality/quantity of pokemon in certain roles having a wildly unbalanced pool to choose from (hazard setters/blockers/removers).
 
Been experimenting with rain teams lately, been having a lot of fun using a certain mon:
1699155789232.png

Toxicroak @ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Fairy/Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Sucker Punch/Knock Off
- Bulk Up


Used to use this bad boy in the days where Gen 8 OU was ran by Urshifu. Defensive Toxicroak understandably looks like a pretty weird set on paper. A defensive base stat spread of 83/65/65 isn't exactly stellar, after all, especially when compared to other defensive Poison types in the tier. Fellow Fighting/Poison type pokemon Okidogi, for instance, boasts a superior 88/115/86 defensive base stat spread while also sporting a high base atk stat of 128 compared to Toxicroak's 106. And on the offensive side, there is absolutely no plausible way that Toxicroak is competing with the likes of Sneasler. So why bother using such a seemingly lackluster mon such as Toxicroak in the current metagame?

In practice, defensive Toxicroak utilizes its unique combination of attributes, namely its Fighting/Poison typing and Dry Skin, to perform as a useful defensive component of rain teams that is able to check or counter several powerful threats within the tier, notably including quite a few mons that typically threaten rain team compositions. Essentially, Toxicroak is a fairly anti-meta and an anti-anti-rain mon, and while being exceedingly niche, it can fulfill its role of covering some of rain's weaker matchups rather well if given the chance.

To quickly discuss the set details, max hp and def EVs are used to maximize Toxicroak's physical bulk, allowing it to stomach hits as best it can. Dry Skin in conjunction with Leftovers allows Toxicroak to recover a notable 18% of its hp every turn, assuming Rain is active of course. This works well in tandem with Drain Punch recovery to keep Toxicroak healthy throughout the match. Gunk Shot is utilized to win matchups against mons such as Ogerpon-W and Rillaboom while also being a way to nail incoming switchins such as Zapdos hard, with the 30% chance to poison being also appreciated. Bulk Up is essential in allowing Toxicroak to muscle through possible defensive answers the opponent might have, most notably Gliscor. Finally, both Sucker Punch and Knock Off have their uses, with Sucker Punch providing useful priority and Knock Off being an invaluable tool to force progress by removing Leftovers and Heavyduty Boots from things like Great Tusk while also giving a way for Toxicroak to nail Ghost type switchins such as Gholdengo or Dragapult. While I've found Tera Fairy to be more consistent in giving Toxicroak better matchups against certain mons, such as Dragapult and Walking Wake, Tera Dark being able to provide STAB on Sucker Punch has also proven to be useful.

The way Toxicroak functions in a match is pretty much what one might expect: opponent sends a mon like Ogerpon-W or Rillaboom that Toxicroak can throttle, Toxicroak comes in and forces them out, then clicks Knock Off to force progress. Being able to switch in on the likes of Kingambit and stomach a hit and being able to outspeed and threaten with Drain Punch is exceptionally nice, especially considering how quickly Toxicroak recovers its hp. Toxicroak also provides a pretty stalwart answer to opposing rain teams, being able to keep physical rain sweepers such as Basculegion in check while still serving as a thorn in the side of special rain sweepers such as Specs Walking Wake thanks to Dry Skin. It additionally has a few more noteworthy matchups, being able to check mons such as Meowscarada, Greninja, and Clefable. Finally, Toxicroak's lack of notable significance within the OU metagame gives it the advantage of surprise, as the opponent is unlikely to know what exactly Toxicroak is supposed to do within the team composition. This may enable Toxicroak additional opportunities to set up Bulk Up, such as if the opponent believes they can force out Toxicroak with non-SD Gliscor.

Is Toxicroak a good mon? Probably not. But after using it a ton, I'd say it's at the very least on the fringe of viability, with its perhaps surprisingly capable defensive profile proving to be valuable on rain team compositions. Toxicroak of course still has a plethora of weaknesses; it's not excessively strong, nor is it monstrously bulky in the face of mons it doesn't naturally check, and it has quite a few losing matchups that just really suck. Moreover, it is deeply dependent on rain being up, and requires good team support to keep hazards on the field should it try to meaningfully try to force progress with Knock Off. Though while extremely niche, Toxicroak is pretty good at fulfilling this role of being a part of a rain team's defensive backbone.
 
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