Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Ctann]

Has anyone thought about the reason why we hate hazards so much? Is it really Gliscor/gholdengo, or is it the extremely high pressure pokemon that can take advantage of the forced hazard damage.

gholdengo and Gliscor have actual utility, unlike kingambit they do not end games on their own. They are mostly utility (outside of NP gholdengo against stall + balance).

Gholdengo being banned only makes gambit more popular.. why? It’s because gholdengo can often force gambit out earlier than it wants to come out. Beating gambit is very reliant on forcing it to take chunks of damage before end game.

the meta is blessed with the best pivot OU has seen in a hot-minute (Gliscor) and all everyone can think about is that suddenly the spikes/hazards are the problem.

Reality: since hazards have come out they’ve been celebrated as an excellent way to make progress.

reality: Gliscor has massively improved the viability of balanced teams, and can compress a lot of value. The spikes and toxic set is being used a lot due to the traditional checks to that such as corviknight being so poor in the current meta.

the issue is clearly that OU has too many options for Pokémon’s that can force GG’s too easily. Gambit was the face of this problem for a long time, it hasn’t changed.

getting rid of two excellent gambit checks isn’t going to improve OU. You’ll complain about the same shit.

You need to cull all the high pressure threats if you want a fun OU. Gholdengo is an issue because you have a maximum of 2 hazard removal attempts in a game where there’s always the next high pressure pokemon threatening to end the game.

symptom: balloon gholdengo being used on HO to buy up to 2 turns against hazard removal.

cause of the problem: a long string of OP Pokémon that are too high pressure for OU.

Treat the symptom, but cure the problem.

If OU gets rid of actual problems like kingambit, and likely also valiant, waterpon, sneasler, dragonite, etc, then you’ll naturally see the rise of Weavile, volcanion, enamorous, meowscarada and similar Pokémon that struggle to get above the water in the current meta, and naturally threaten Gliscor, gholdengo etc.

suddenly tusk is 10x better against Gholden Joe when it’s not pressured to also deal with gambit.

Suddenly corviknight viability is increasing, because it’s checking higher incidences of enamorous, Weavile and meowscarada.

Notes about other high pressure pokemon

Valiant is really too good , generally it’s the second most reliable GG Pokémon after kingambit

waterpon is forcing mass-dragon type usage, and still feels too OP. Still limited by simple stuff like defensive Pokémon running u turn more often and u turning into faster threats. Might be okay when viability of Weavile and meowscarada can increase again.

dragonite is a bit weird, excellent against offensive teams, dead weight against a lot of bulky Pokémon. But we saw creativity with encore before the most recent meta shift, so it might still be too OP.

I think Sneasler may be a wild card, seeing as it’s beaten by phys-glowking, defensive gholdengo, unaware Pokémon’s and Gliscor itself. This is a classic example of where Tera might be the reason it’s broken tho..

edit: completely forgot about Manaphy, and maybe even fringe stuff we haven’t thought about due to gambit being so dominant, like that crazy strong cresselia Tera-poison with stored power lol.

 

[Return to Zero]

If OU gets rid of actual problems like kingambit, likely valiant, waterpon, etc, then you’ll naturally see the rise of Weavile, volcanion, enamorous, and similar Pokémon that struggle to get above the water in the current meta, and naturally threaten Gliscor etc. suddenly tusk is 10x better against Gholden Joe when it’s less pressured to also deal with gambit.

You're not wrong, but it's worth nothing that all three of the mons you said would rise in the wake of these bans are Stealth Rock weak and would have some pressure on them to run HDB. And with Gholdengo still around and hazard removers not being more common, hazards are still significantly harder to remove. I think this eases some of the pressure of having to deal with hazards at the same time as sweepers who run away with games after one turn, but doesn't actually get at the core reasons why hazard stacking is so common, easy, and effective.

 

[Magcargo]

Has anyone thought about the reason why we hate hazards so much? Is it really Gliscor/gholdengo, or is it the extremely high pressure pokemon that can take advantage of the forced hazard damage.

gholdengo and Gliscor have actual utility, unlike kingambit they do not end games on their own. They are mostly utility (outside of NP gholdengo against stall + balance).

Gholdengo being banned only makes gambit more popular.. why? It’s because gholdengo can often force gambit out earlier than it wants to come out. Beating gambit is very reliant on forcing it to take chunks of damage before end game.

the meta is blessed with the best pivot OU has seen in a hot-minute (Gliscor) and all everyone can think about is that the spikes/hazards are the problem.

Reality: since hazards have come out they’ve been celebrated as an excellent way to make progress.

the issue is clearly that OU has too many options for Pokémon’s that can force GG’s too easily. Gambit was the face of this problem for a long time, it hasn’t changed.

getting rid of two excellent gambit checks isn’t going to improve OU. You’ll complain about the same shit.

You need to cull all the high pressure threats if you want a fun OU. Gholdengo is an issue because you have a maximum of 2 hazard removal attempts in a game where there’s always the next high pressure pokemon threatening to end the game.

symptom: gholdengo being used to buy 2 turns against hazard removal

cause of the problem: a long string of OP Pokémon that are too high pressure for OU.

Treat the symptom, but cure the problem.

If OU gets rid of actual problems like kingambit, likely valiant, waterpon, etc, then you’ll naturally see the rise of Weavile, volcanion, enamorous, and similar Pokémon that struggle to get above the water in the current meta, and naturally threaten Gliscor etc.

Thank you Ctann for once again posting the realest takes on this thread. The fact is, that Pokemon like Gambit, Booster Valiant, Booster Moth, and Ogerpon are all extremely difficult Pokemon to switch into, with multiple ways to end the game, being impossible to revenge kill barring running the fastest Choice Scarf Pokemon or faster Booster Energy Pokemon, while also having multiple setup options and power levels easily on par with or eclipsing Pokemon we'd traditionally see in Ubers. Gholdengo's impact is most commonly see on HO teams where turns are more limited, making its one turn of blocking hazard removal more impactful than against vs Balance imo, where it is more reasonable to deal with. What I've noticed this generation is that in addition to a strong offensive presence, many of the Pokemon on Offense manage to have strong defensive value and easy to set up win conditions, with Zamazenta being the clearest example (though I also don't think Zama is OP).

I agree that we should be targeting the Pokemon that have a power level that is much higher than the average OU power level, espicially as this is what makes HO so dominating. Bear in mind, that if a suspect were to occur on the likes of Valiant and Ogerpon, I am still not entirely I would vote ban, but we should be tackling the Pokemon that create such pressuring situations for the opponent if they make a wrong move. Bear in mind that a lot of HO teams don't neccisarily run Gholdengo because mons like Iron Moth and Iron Valiant are also able to exert a lot of pressure on the hazard removers.

 

[Ctann]

You're not wrong, but it's worth nothing that all three of the mons you said would rise in the wake of these bans are Stealth Rock weak and would have some pressure on them to run HDB. And with Gholdengo still around and hazard removers not being more common, hazards are still significantly harder to remove. I think this eases some of the pressure of having to deal with hazards at the same time as sweepers who run away with games after one turn, but doesn't actually get at the core reasons why hazard stacking is so common, easy, and effective.

the HDB adaptation is a feature, not a problem. Naturally with more hazards, GF is forcing people to run more HDB. Can’t say I like it.. but the alternative is banning a stack of hazards, lol.

mass HDB usage hasn’t really been a cause for play dissatisfaction, right ?

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I'll try not to side track us too much, I do want to quickly comment on the elitism discussion on page 211, but from the perspective of someone who is getting more involved in Gen 9.

I am so happy to hear that the elitism and toxicity has gone down SO MUCH this generation. It shouldn't have a place in the thread.

However,

imo, as someone who's getting invovled for the first time, the elitism and toxicity is still present, and it can't be disregarded because of the progress made. Yes, what has been done needs to be celebrated, but we can't let it blind us to the further work that needs to be done.

I've been improving a lot since DLC1 came out and have reached PBs on multiple ladders. Yet, because I am still considered "low ladder," I frankly feel afraid of posting in the threads a lot of the time because there is such a negative reaction to uninformed takes on here, and I don't know if I'm going to say the correct thing. When people are wrong, the disagreements come from so many people and so harshly that people end up feeling cornered (from my experience anyway). It takes so little for discussions to get nasty, even if they are better than they used to be. I think the thread lock was very necessary yesterday and I'm glad to see the mods/council take steps to lower them. But I also know I post so much less often than at the start of the generation because the community sometimes doesn't feel super welcoming. (This is particularly bad during discussions around tera).

If this is so much better than everyone has been talking about, keep going, because I don't want the next newcomer to feel afraid to post like I have kinda become.

Edit a day later:

Don't get me wrong, correcting people when they are blatantly wrong is important (gliscor =/= lando-t), but that also isn't the main point.
We need to keep pushing to get toxicity out of the community, as I've felt it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Still, yay progress!

 

[RS25802580]

Genuine question: How are balance players dealing with Sneasler right now? Particularly the tera dark night slash set that gets +1 def under grassy terrain? I used to run dozo on all of my balance teams, but since diversifying a bit I've realized that other checks are quite few and far in between.

Physdef glowing and gholdengo both fold to a +2 tera dark night slash. Corviknight loses the 1v1 to a +2 atk/+1 def Sneasler. Tusk also loses unless you predict right by clicking fighting stab into their tera dark.

I suppose the most spashable check to Tera Dark Sneasler is physdef Gliscor, but it becomes setup fodder for Tera Flying Sneasler. So there's a big risk in clicking Gliscor's EQ on any Sneasler.

Would love to hear folks' thoughts.

 

[Bakugames]

When people are wrong, the disagreements come from so many people and so harshly that people end up feeling cornered (from my experience anyway). It takes so little for discussions to get nasty, even if they are better than they used to be.

I feel like theres this thing on the thread that I call twitter-brain, where you see someone post something thats very incorrect so you run to post your most epic takedown of it. This leads to a lot of insulting, disingenuous and aggressive posts at worse, and just net zero memey stuff at best. I'm not saying you should let people say something incorrect here with no response, but not only do we need not need to jump onto their throats immediately and spend 1-3 pages in a quickly devolving argument, it'd be better for everyone involved and would make this thread much healthier.

anyway

I don't get why people argue about dire claw so much when the rilla + seed sd acro sneasler is so bad. sleep chance is annoying, getting half of your team one shot by it is even worse (or just your entire team lol). I've been using it and I completely eat my words that this thing was mid, the arguments were just at the wrong target. its main issue is positioning but rilla u turn hits like a truck and can also deal a big chunk to so many would be checks and revenge killers. just a nasty mon overall. ok gn its 4 am

 

[Avira]

Thank you Ctann for once again posting the realest takes on this thread. The fact is, that Pokemon like Gambit, Booster Valiant, Booster Moth, and Ogerpon are all extremely difficult Pokemon to switch into, with multiple ways to end the game, being impossible to revenge kill barring running the fastest Choice Scarf Pokemon or faster Booster Energy Pokemon, while also having multiple setup options and power levels easily on par with or eclipsing Pokemon we'd traditionally see in Ubers. Gholdengo's impact is most commonly see on HO teams where turns are more limited, making its one turn of blocking hazard removal more impactful than against vs Balance imo, where it is more reasonable to deal with. What I've noticed this generation is that in addition to a strong offensive presence, many of the Pokemon on Offense manage to have strong defensive value and easy to set up win conditions, with Zamazenta being the clearest example (though I also don't think Zama is OP).

I agree that we should be targeting the Pokemon that have a power level that is much higher than the average OU power level, espicially as this is what makes HO so dominating. Bear in mind, that if a suspect were to occur on the likes of Valiant and Ogerpon, I am still not entirely I would vote ban, but we should be tackling the Pokemon that create such pressuring situations for the opponent if they make a wrong move. Bear in mind that a lot of HO teams don't neccisarily run Gholdengo because mons like Iron Moth and Iron Valiant are also able to exert a lot of pressure on the hazard removers.

If I wasn't such a scrub, I would vote do not ban on Iron Valiant as I consider it to be a perfectly healthy mon in the meta. Ogerpon-Wellspring, I would vote to ban as I find this mon very oppressive for defensive teams to face not to mention how few switch-ins there are to it on offense. I believe Ogerpon-Wellspring is one of the main reasons why HO is so strong right now due to its very high threat level. Sneasler is also really strong right now. It is very easy for Sneasler to end games with the defense boost from Grassy Seed.

 

[Sahvyt]

mass HDB usage hasn’t really been a cause for play dissatisfaction, right ?

I personally don't think so, but i'm sure people are pissed at teambuilding being so restrictive with items. It's not fun having to choose between [insert any relevant item] and HDB on [insert relevant mon].

 

[Ctann]

Ogerpon water is really strong. But.. there’s a very big butt here.

[in a blind Tera meta] It’s hard for it to get a shock-value “one free turn” like gambit, valiant and sneasler. Those are possibly the most intense on the chopping block, in that order of game-ending reliability.

Guaranteed water-type Tera means you can plan around waterpon.

sneasler is fortunately checked by a lot and gets one attempt. Valiant gets one attempt but isn’t truly checked, except by faster revengers. The valiant user is the one with all the set information, not the opponent.

there’s no need to reiterate why kingambit should have been banned long ago. It’s suffocating the entire meta development.

this is a big reason I’d reduce the ban priority on ogerpon. It just doesn’t have the ability to win a game with the unexpected “1 free turn” that Pokémon like gambit has been abusing since the gen began.

 

[Roshino]

Genuine question: How are balance players dealing with Sneasler right now? Particularly the tera dark night slash set that gets +1 def under grassy terrain? I used to run dozo on all of my balance teams, but since diversifying a bit I've realized that other checks are quite few and far in between.

Physdef glowing and gholdengo both fold to a +2 tera dark night slash. Corviknight loses the 1v1 to a +2 atk/+1 def Sneasler. Tusk also loses unless you predict right by clicking fighting stab into their tera dark.

I suppose the most spashable check to Tera Dark Sneasler is physdef Gliscor, but it becomes setup fodder for Tera Flying Sneasler. So there's a big risk in clicking Gliscor's EQ on any Sneasler.

Would love to hear folks' thoughts.

Sneasler is so squishy that even at +1 def and under grassy terrain it does not want to take damage (and often times has only one shot to sweep because it becomes much less impressive after that, being outsped and destroyed by fast mons or Scarves, especially because it is usually adamant. If my calc is right, if it has to switch out and ends up losing Unburden, Adamant 252 speed gets ganked by 106 base speed Jolly mons.

Any physdef unaware will wall it - even a physdef Clodsire will wall it until it rolls a dire claw sleep (and even then it has to tera to avoid EQ, which will chunk it well enough even under grassy terrain), or Toxic after Tera, in which case lefties should barely outheal Tera Acrobatics damage. Quagsire has better physdef, but it doesnt resist its stabs.

Assuming for whatever reason in this Gliscor hellhole there are no hazards up, focus sash users (Glimmora, Samurott, even Ribombee lol) should be able to wreck it.

Assuming it took a hit while setting up/switching in, old school priority banded attacks will still chunk it and revenge kill it. I believe banded Scizor still deals 60%+ to Sneasler, even at +1 def, for instance. Dragonite should deal less damage but it will switch in much more easily due to multiscale. If you're willing to Tera it just gets annihilated by Gholdengo, Cresselia, Hat, and pretty much any other special attacker regardless of set.

Even if it teras Flying and SDs, Gliscor will still take a hit, toxic it and stall it well enough for a possible revenge kill. Kinda scraping the bottom here but I'm pretty sure that ID Garganacl will just wall it forever if you manage to get in and tera (Garg always teras anyways so your team should account for that).

Don't quote me on any of that - I really should be sleeping by now so it's just a bunch of off-the-top-of-my-head ideas lol

 

[heileone]

Genuine question: How are balance players dealing with Sneasler right now? Particularly the tera dark night slash set that gets +1 def under grassy terrain? I used to run dozo on all of my balance teams, but since diversifying a bit I've realized that other checks are quite few and far in between.

Physdef glowing and gholdengo both fold to a +2 tera dark night slash. Corviknight loses the 1v1 to a +2 atk/+1 def Sneasler. Tusk also loses unless you predict right by clicking fighting stab into their tera dark.

I suppose the most spashable check to Tera Dark Sneasler is physdef Gliscor, but it becomes setup fodder for Tera Flying Sneasler. So there's a big risk in clicking Gliscor's EQ on any Sneasler.

Would love to hear folks' thoughts.

Sneasler is legit just broken but the one thing that you have to come to terms with when it comes to dealing with it is that the turn it comes out is the most important and central turn of the game. Dozo, tera water dirge, moltres, and mandibuzz are the best thing fat has against it but without them its a nightmare to try to cover all the sneasler sets.

Zapdos lets you fish for paras at the very least, and priority is strong against it especially if you can bait it to into close combat into something like kingambit so it drops its def boost(although many run low kick). Gliscor is ok against it, but in grassy terrain uninvested eq to +1 sneasler is joke damage, especially if they are invested in bulk, which they can be since they are so fast with just unburden.

You can try to tera some stuff to beat it i guess. A timely tera steel from something like valiant can get it into priority range by baiting dire claw.
Generally speaking though sneasler is extremely tough to plan for and pretty restrictive tbh. Theres a reason grassy terrain is so common on the ladder and in tournaments.

Personally I can't wait until ghold and gliscor are gone so people will finally see just how turbo broken this thing is, its like if polteaghest was actually good.

 

[arnimacarni]

I'll try not to side track us too much, I do want to quickly comment on the elitism discussion on page 211, but from the perspective of someone who is getting more involved in Gen 9.

I am so happy to hear that the elitism and toxicity has gone down SO MUCH this generation. It shouldn't have a place in the thread.

However,

imo, as someone who's getting invovled for the first time, the elitism and toxicity is still present, and it can't be disregarded because of the progress made. Yes, what has been done needs to be celebrated, but we can't let it blind us to the further work that needs to be done.

I've been improving a lot since DLC1 came out and have reached PBs on multiple ladders. Yet, because I am still considered "low ladder," I frankly feel afraid of posting in the threads a lot of the time because there is such a negative reaction to uninformed takes on here, and I don't know if I'm going to say the correct thing. When people are wrong, the disagreements come from so many people and so harshly that people end up feeling cornered (from my experience anyway). It takes so little for discussions to get nasty, even if they are better than they used to be. I think the thread lock was very necessary yesterday and I'm glad to see the mods/council take steps to lower them. But I also know I post so much less often than at the start of the generation because the community sometimes doesn't feel super welcoming. (This is particularly bad during discussions around tera).

If this is so much better than everyone has been talking about, keep going, because I don't want the next newcomer to feel afraid to post like I have kinda become.

As someone who is also low-ladder and posts semi-regularly here, while I understand and appreciate your points, I believe that the whole thing is just about knowing your place. If I were to make a comment on Gliscor/Gholdengo, I'd preface it by stating that it is my personal take on it, not that it is the absolute truth that the elites don't want us to know about. Everybody has a voice, but not everybody has the knowledge. I feel like people here have been super understanding of me when I made an uninformed comment, and the back and forth helped me improve. Context and attitude are everything.

 

[yomaalt]

gholdengo and Gliscor have actual utility, unlike kingambit they do not end games on their own. They are mostly utility (outside of NP gholdengo against stall + balance).

Gholdengo being banned only makes gambit more popular.. why? It’s because gholdengo can often force gambit out earlier than it wants to come out. Beating gambit is very reliant on forcing it to take chunks of damage before end game.

Hey hey Hey be quiet please, my gambit stocks are silently paying off and I NEED this return money cause my valiant ban bet doesn't seem very likely

With all the discourse over the metagame being "oh dengo's broken cause hazards!" or "gliscor's broken cause it's the best hazard setter by a longshot!" people seem to be forgetting that gambit has run the tier from the shadows since day 1. Valiant only being at like 88% from switchin is already great for it, but DOZO (assuming boots are knocked)? TUSK? any hp they lose is a higher chance of a gambit payout. Like a true "evil" type mon, he plays best when forgotten.

Wait I said too much-

 

[fireburn2500]

Its so great looking up rapid spin and defog in OU and seeing 1 mon for each, and then neither of them ever get to remove hazards

 

[Kingdra7]

Has anyone thought about the reason why we hate hazards so much? Is it really Gliscor/gholdengo, or is it the extremely high pressure pokemon that can take advantage of the forced hazard damage.

It's the latter but with how many excellent HO tools were added this gen, you would have to disproportionately ban a whole bunch of the current gen mons to get to the point that we see how much chip is enabling these high attack beasts. HO was always premised around doing calcs with rocks or a layer of spikes, but had a smaller pool of mons that would get a OHKO after that chip. Now the list is giant.

 

[Spheal boi]

If Excadrill returns do you think would give a great help against Gholdengo and its hazard removal block?

Even if has only 65 of Special Defense, its 110 in HP really gives it a great help to tank hits:

+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 228-268 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 312-367 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And this was done using only the defensive set with Shadow Ball instead of Hex.

+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 375-442 (103.8 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 274-324 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even if it deals too much damage, if invested simply in special defense can manage to take one hit before fainting, and also Excadrill is faster than Gholdendo of only 4 (Exca has 88 of speed while Ghold 84)

4 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 294-348 (93.3 - 110.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
100 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 354-416 (112.3 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Already with only 4 EV in Attack can threaten a KO, and with 100 is guaranteed against the Nasty Plot set

4 Atk Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 380-450 (120.6 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 354-416 (112.3 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With Sand Force even if uninvested has the guaranteed OHKO

4 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 210-248 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 252-296 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can't say too much, but that already have the guaranteed 2HKO on the defensive set is excellent

4 Atk Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 270-320 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sand Force Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 326-386 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
And with Sand Force has the possibily to threat the OHKO

Needless to say that all of these damage calcs to Gholdengo are useless if it then pulls out something called "Tera Type: Flying", but already invested in Special Defense it can have the possibility to remove the Air Ballon of Gholdengo and then threaten the KO since it naturally outspeeds it as said before, and with Sand Force canhave the chance even if small to OHKO the defensive set is wonderful (do you think it would help also Tyranitar to rise?).

Before I conclude I want to say this is my first post in which besides doing an analysis that for me is long, I used also the calcs for the first times, so if those are wrong feel free to tell me where I did wrong so that in future I can improve and not commit the same errors.

For those that have read until this point, tysm for your time and have a great day.

 

[pika pal]

Genuine question: How are balance players dealing with Sneasler right now? Particularly the tera dark night slash set that gets +1 def under grassy terrain? I used to run dozo on all of my balance teams, but since diversifying a bit I've realized that other checks are quite few and far in between.

Physdef glowing and gholdengo both fold to a +2 tera dark night slash. Corviknight loses the 1v1 to a +2 atk/+1 def Sneasler. Tusk also loses unless you predict right by clicking fighting stab into their tera dark.

I suppose the most spashable check to Tera Dark Sneasler is physdef Gliscor, but it becomes setup fodder for Tera Flying Sneasler. So there's a big risk in clicking Gliscor's EQ on any Sneasler.

Would love to hear folks' thoughts.

Would Okidogi be a consideration? Resistant to STABs plus the Tera Dark coverage it sounds like you struggle with, while discouraging Tera due to losing resistance to Drain Punch and able to grab a Bulk Up boost if runniing that set to handle whatever comes in next. It has 4MSS since it can't fit STABs + Knock Off (to avoid a Gholdengo hard wall) + Taunt + Bulk Up + Ice Punch (to break Gliscor), but it feels tailor-able to cover some holes in particular teams.

If the Gliscor ban goes through, High Horsepower compresses a lot of coverage: Sneasler + Gholdengo are 2HKO'd unboosted, +1 can 2HKO Toxapex while also having 2HKO on Unaware Clodsire, obviously throttles stuff like Iron Moth, and retains an option into certain Teras like Fire Gambit.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Not Blissey herself, but stall got a massive buff with Clefable and Gliscor being released, and the archetype as a whole rose dramatically in usage and viability, and if stall rises Blissey rises. I didn't play stall before DLC1 but it was definitely around, there were a couple good teams floating around. It's not really that Blissey was underrated, more that the type of teams Blissey tends to be on are more consistent now than ever before

stall got buffed with these?
oh no.
I have got a question: is anyone asking here in the forums for special bans on gliscor?(like not running hazards and/or toxic).
I am asking because if the ban causes stall to become obselite again some people may start arguing that gliscor is a necessary evil (I am not one of them by the way).

maybe I am just overeacting.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Would Okidogi be a consideration? Resistant to STABs plus the Tera Dark coverage it sounds like you struggle with, while discouraging Tera due to losing resistance to Drain Punch and able to grab a Bulk Up boost if runniing that set to handle whatever comes in next. It has 4MSS since it can't fit STABs + Knock Off (to avoid a Gholdengo hard wall) + Taunt + Bulk Up + Ice Punch (to break Gliscor), but it feels tailor-able to cover some holes in particular teams.

If the Gliscor ban goes through, High Horsepower compresses a lot of coverage: Sneasler + Gholdengo are 2HKO'd unboosted, +1 can 2HKO Toxapex while also having 2HKO on Unaware Clodsire, obviously throttles stuff like Iron Moth, and retains an option into certain Teras like Fire Gambit.

problem with that is, it loses to the other sneasler set that people are running: tera flying acrobatics. ghold covers that one for now so we don't see it too too much, but it's a way better option against virtually everything that isn't named gholdengo, so a bunch of people are running that and trying to deal with ghold before ever sending sneasler out. of course, this is going to become the primary set after ghold gets banned and that's probably the point where we'll have to have a serious discussion about banning sneasler, but considering we only have like 2 or 3 more suspects maximum before the dlc, i'm not certain it'll ever get to that point unless the council starts handing out quickbans again

stall got buffed with these?
oh no.
I have got a question: is anyone asking here in the forums for special bans on gliscor?(like not running hazards and/or toxic).
I am asking because if the ban causes stall to become obselite again some people may start arguing that gliscor is a necessary evil (I am not one of them by the way).

maybe I am just overeacting.

complex bans are a bad idea. they make the meta less accessible and intuitive to new players and they would clutter up the beginning of every battle on showdown with clauses and explanations. gliscor is not a necessary evil and this would be bending over backwards to preserve it

 

[Alternator]

I'll try not to side track us too much, I do want to quickly comment on the elitism discussion on page 211, but from the perspective of someone who is getting more involved in Gen 9.

I am so happy to hear that the elitism and toxicity has gone down SO MUCH this generation. It shouldn't have a place in the thread.

However,

imo, as someone who's getting invovled for the first time, the elitism and toxicity is still present, and it can't be disregarded because of the progress made. Yes, what has been done needs to be celebrated, but we can't let it blind us to the further work that needs to be done.

I've been improving a lot since DLC1 came out and have reached PBs on multiple ladders. Yet, because I am still considered "low ladder," I frankly feel afraid of posting in the threads a lot of the time because there is such a negative reaction to uninformed takes on here, and I don't know if I'm going to say the correct thing. When people are wrong, the disagreements come from so many people and so harshly that people end up feeling cornered (from my experience anyway). It takes so little for discussions to get nasty, even if they are better than they used to be. I think the thread lock was very necessary yesterday and I'm glad to see the mods/council take steps to lower them. But I also know I post so much less often than at the start of the generation because the community sometimes doesn't feel super welcoming. (This is particularly bad during discussions around tera).

If this is so much better than everyone has been talking about, keep going, because I don't want the next newcomer to feel afraid to post like I have kinda become.

There's a difference between a person's post being dismissed due to the poster being low ladder, and being dismissed because the claims are laughable and indicative of a player who has literally not played Gen 9. The former is a problem, but the latter is what happened.

"Gliscor == Lando-T" and then brushing off Poison Heal as a minor difference is a mistake that a new player can credibly make; after all, they have the same typing, both are physically bulky, both can run pivoting moves, both are OU stalwarts, there's a lot of surface similarities! Doubling and tripling and quadrupling down when everyone in the thread is explaining why the comparison is wrong, on the other hand, is not the sign of a new player. It's the sign of a troll.

I'm low ladder myself - my knowledge vastly surpasses my skill - and you can look at my reacts, people aren't mindlessly posting HAHA and SAD just because you're low ladder.

 

[RS25802580]

Sneasler is so squishy that even at +1 def and under grassy terrain it does not want to take damage (and often times has only one shot to sweep because it becomes much less impressive after that, being outsped and destroyed by fast mons or Scarves, especially because it is usually adamant. If my calc is right, if it has to switch out and ends up losing Unburden, Adamant 252 speed gets ganked by 106 base speed Jolly mons.

Any physdef unaware will wall it - even a physdef Clodsire will wall it until it rolls a dire claw sleep (and even then it has to tera to avoid EQ, which will chunk it well enough even under grassy terrain), or Toxic after Tera, in which case lefties should barely outheal Tera Acrobatics damage. Quagsire has better physdef, but it doesnt resist its stabs.

Assuming for whatever reason in this Gliscor hellhole there are no hazards up, focus sash users (Glimmora, Samurott, even Ribombee lol) should be able to wreck it.

Assuming it took a hit while setting up/switching in, old school priority banded attacks will still chunk it and revenge kill it. I believe banded Scizor still deals 60%+ to Sneasler, even at +1 def, for instance. Dragonite should deal less damage but it will switch in much more easily due to multiscale. If you're willing to Tera it just gets annihilated by Gholdengo, Cresselia, Hat, and pretty much any other special attacker regardless of set.

Even if it teras Flying and SDs, Gliscor will still take a hit, toxic it and stall it well enough for a possible revenge kill. Kinda scraping the bottom here but I'm pretty sure that ID Garganacl will just wall it forever if you manage to get in and tera (Garg always teras anyways so your team should account for that).

I feel like these are solid ideas on paper but in the flow of the gameplay they tend to fall through. Most competent Sneasler players will position their sweep so that they won’t have to be forced out once they’ve used up their grassy seed and unburden proc. At +2 speed Sneasler outpaces everything in the current meta.

As far as Unaware walls go, Dondozo is probably the best Sneasler counter out there, but feels increasingly difficult to fit onto balance teams given all the hazard pressure in this meta. Skeledirge is a solid option that I didn’t consider; at worst you can sacrifice it to get a wisp off on Sneasler since it reliably lives a tera dark night slash. I feel that physdef Clodsire and Quagsire are rather niche picks that are difficult to fit on anything other than stall.

Physdef gliscor can try to toxic stall the tera dark sneaslers, but it does get cleanly 2HKO’d by tera flying Sneasler’s +2 acrobatics after poison heal. So I feel there is substantial risk in bringing in Gliscor on Sneasler and clicking buttons.

Priority, particularly Dnite, is a good idea. Gambit’s sucker punch can pick off a weakened Sneasler if it’s taken some def drops from Close Combat, but that implies it’s already forced some good breakage on your team. Beyond this I don’t think there are many priority options that come to mind.

I think the main challenge Sneasler faces right now is that it’s split between wanting Tera Dark night slash for Ghold and Tera Flying Acrobatics for Gliscor. Once either (or both) of these mons gets banned, I feel that Sneasler will become a lot more problematic. As it stands now, the 4mss of wanting both options keeps in Sneasler in relative check offensively, but it’s still a bit nerve-wracking to handle defensively if you don’t know what tera it has.

 

[Roshino]

I dunno man. I feel like so many people are used to seeing Gliscor not being overbearing on OU for oh-so-many years and, at face value, it feels kinda wrong to ban it. What if Keldeo came back and started 6-0ing unprepared teams? There would be some resistance as well, even more so because Gliscor's effects are not as explosive as a +1 252+ Modest Blood Moon. Just kill the bat and, if (and only if) the meta shifts enough to make it not overbearing, bring it back

 

[ZannaBianca]

I dunno man. I feel like so many people are used to seeing Gliscor not being overbearing on OU for oh-so-many years and, at face value, it feels kinda wrong to ban it. What if Keldeo came back and started 6-0ing unprepared teams? There would be some resistance as well, even more so because Gliscor's effects are not as explosive as a +1 252+ Modest Blood Moon. Just kill the bat and, if (and only if) the meta shifts enough to make it not overbearing, bring it back

What I feel are major components in Gliscor's rise compared to Gen 7:

• General environment, both in reduction of hard counters to itself (ex. Ferrothorn, Celesteela) or it's playstyle (less defoggers)
• Gaining a very strong progress-making tool against its existing counters (Spikes)
• Tera ability to remove its self-destruct button in the 4x Ice weakness or to survive key turns
• Being the best counter to itself (not bad by itself but compounds to the frustration)

 

[veti]

I dunno man. I feel like so many people are used to seeing Gliscor not being overbearing on OU for oh-so-many years

That Gliscor was much easier to deal with. Gliscor had to carefully navigate HP ice and didn't have spikes. Turns out, not having anything with a decent SPA stat threaten to kill/chunk you and having spikes in a game without any viable hazard removal that can come in on Gliscor makes Gliscor much more broken.