Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Magcargo]

My stance is starting to change. I'd probably prioritize targeting mons like Manaphy, Sneasler and Stored Power over Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, and even Gliscor. The latter 4 Pokemon, even if they are arguably stronger, at least bring crucial defensive utility to a team that is borderline necessary given the power level of the metagame. Its hard for me to really argue the same about Manaphy and Sneasler, which IMO don't add nearly as much to the tier. Manaphy pretty much 6-0s most balance teams with no issue and is mostly a pick that HO styles will be using. Its incredibly lethal on webs, and pretty much the only counter that isn't fringe is Ogerpon-W. Sneasler is starting to dive into a bunch of different sets beyond its standard Acrobatics set that is making counterplay consistently harder. One that I've seen is SD / Dire Claw / Shadow Claw / CC with Tera Ghost, that completely cooks Gholdengo and Zapdos, and is basically relying on a Static proc from Zapdos in order to not lose the game. I've also been completely destroy by SubSD Tera Ghost sets. Sneasler does have the weakness of really only getting one shot, but Dire Claw makes getting that shot quite a bit easier with random Paralysis free turns or Sleep free turns, though it does have to pick its poison there with Gliscor roaming around. Hawlucha would be significantly more managable with its attack being nearly 40 points lower.

As for Stored Power, shit is just extremely cheap and shouldn't have any place in a competitive metagame. There are so many bullshit Stored Power sweepers I can name off the top of my head, from Clefable, Cresselia, Armarouge, Hatterene, Polteageist, the list just goes on and on. Is it Tera's fault? Maybe, but its not like getting free setup turns from other shit like Screens, Paralysis, etc. isn't a possibility and this move mostly being a match-up check for whether I bring a Whirlwinder / Hazer / Encorer elicits memories of Baton Pass. In fact, one could argue that Stored Power was a factor in getting Baton Pass banned, as a super boosted (or even moderately boosted) Espeon virtually had no counterplay when using the move.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

As for Stored Power, shit is just extremely cheap and shouldn't have any place in a competitive metagame. There are so many bullshit Stored Power sweepers I can name off the top of my head, from Clefable, Cresselia, Armarouge, Hatterene, Polteageist, the list just goes on and on.

can we please dispel of this stored power narrative? none of the mons you listed are problematic and stored power isn't even the be-all-end-all optimal set on the two of them that are actually used enough to be ou. if you'd brought up magearna or espathra or manaphy, you'd be on much firmer ground, although stored power wasn't really the sole thing breaking any of them—magearna had a billion different sets and all of them were busted; manaphy has perpetually been on the survey since before the stored power set even hit the mainstream; and although espathra did always run stored power, it might have still been unacceptably strong in a theoretical meta without it thanks to lumina crash screwing over unaware mons and special walls almost as much as stored power did. stored power is not a problem

 

[Cuddly]

The player base is a bunch of thundering dumbasses this gen. A lot of problems are getting ignored or justified for awful reasons. Such as one of the big anti-ban reason on kingambit being it checks the whole format. Most of the reasons why it was kept were awful. The main anti-ban reasons were 'we need it to check other broken stuff' and 'you can 50/50 it with tera'.

I honestly don't care about kingambit one way or another, it's not as good as it was, but pretending like it getting voted to stay means something is kind of moot. The qualified voter base is largely punting on anything that it's a 100% slam dunk of a ban. And once broken stuff gets bumped off, it's probably going to show back up.

These are the kind of generations that make you believe democracy was a mistake and it's time for fascism.

Umm Aktually Smogon is Republic, not a Democracy.
But seriously I think the issue here is more situational. Gen 9 powercreep makes Gen 5 look tame by comparison, and as a result a ton of blame is thrown around and the suspect process it too binary and slow. It’s a bit more complicated than just “Was Kingambit broken or not” when its actually hard to say so.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

can we please dispel of this stored power narrative? none of the mons you listed are problematic and stored power isn't even the be-all-end-all optimal set on the two of them that are actually used enough to be ou. if you'd brought up magearna or espathra or manaphy, you'd be on much firmer ground, although stored power wasn't really the sole thing breaking any of them—magearna had a billion different sets and all of them were busted; manaphy has perpetually been on the survey since before the stored power set even hit the mainstream; and although espathra did always run stored power, it might have still been unacceptably strong in a theoretical meta without it thanks to lumina crash screwing over unaware mons and special walls almost as much as stored power did. stored power is not a problem

Gotta say I completely disagree, Stored Power is uncompetitve bullshit, I just played a stall game where the opposing Polteageist used Shell Smash and 6-0d with zero prep or positioning. Sinistcha is a miserable Pokémon to face when it tera poisons, the stored power + take heart Manaphy set can't be worn down with toxic, literally the only questionable Manaphy set, hatterene is immune to status and utility moves; unaware Pokémon still get smashed by stored power when they should be reliable counters to setup, Magearna and Espathra were banned for their abuse of stored power, the former being a Pokémon that would be a very valuable versatile and useful presence in this metagame if it weren't able to use stored power cheese, so on and so on. I don't think this move is competitve or balanced and it's broken on at least 6 Pokémon. Obviously other metagames are not great comparison points but BH is just giving stored power or power trip to every sweeper. If there's any move that's a picture of "uncompetitive on most users" it's this one

You need to stop condescending to people and make an effort to listen to and understand other people's perspective as well as have more respect for it, Magcargo has been engaging with this community for over 15 years and has been contributing to suspects reliably, gets reqs almost every time, he is a smart creative and good player. You were doing the same to Quacc in the Gliscor thread who is one of the most skilled and knowledgeable players I've met and I have learned a lot from him, even though I disagree with his position on Gliscor

 

[MattC (Banned)]

@OU Council peeps uuum...

Yea your forum is derailing again. Think you can do something about this? Never would I have thought Gliscor would cause this much negativity

We can move on from this and talk about other things. Like (for example), what's an off meta pick or moveset you're using in the current metagame? You all know I'm using Forretress and someone managed to get #1 on the ladder with IRON JUGULIS let me remind you.

 

[Welcome to mars]

As for Stored Power, shit is just extremely cheap and shouldn't have any place in a competitive metagame. There are so many bullshit Stored Power sweepers I can name off the top of my head, from Clefable, Cresselia, Armarouge, Hatterene, Polteageist, the list just goes on and on. Is it Tera's fault? Maybe, but its not like getting free setup turns from other shit like Screens, Paralysis, etc. isn't a possibility and this move mostly being a match-up check for whether I bring a Whirlwinder / Hazer / Encorer elicits memories of Baton Pass. In fact, one could argue that Stored Power was a factor in getting Baton Pass banned, as a super boosted (or even moderately boosted) Espeon virtually had no counterplay when using the move.

while you do make a good point(despite me not really agreeing) but armarouge is a bit below average rn and i don’t really see it running stored power, unless youre talking about lower tiers

Like (for example), what's an off meta pick or moveset you're using in the current metagame? You all know I'm using Forretress and someone managed to get #1 on the ladder with IRON JUGULIS let me remind you.

skeledirge

 

[YubelVT]

Gliscor's oppresiveness isn't solely due to Gholdengo, I feel like if you believe this you're actively ignoring how the meta's developped recently or are stuck in low ladder hell and have never fought a competent Gliscor team.

Gholdengo is nowhere near being Gliscor's most common partner, which is unsuprisingly Clefable, due to the fact that they both mesh together as bulky hazard setters that are immune to hazards (-rocks for gliscor.)

View attachment 569152

Most of these "Iron Man" squads show just how insane an immunity to hazards is for stalling out the game. Gliscor is as good as it is right now because not only does it have spikes immunity, spikes, rocks, toxic and knock, all of which are insane for a defensive pokemon to have, but also a double leftovers that isn't reliant on having it's item is just insane.

Hazard Stack is only as good and competent as it is precisely because Gholdengo stifles hazard control to such a degree. I'm down for a Gliscor suspect, but it would have been a much better move to suspect Gholdengo first. (that being said I feel the need to say that gholdengo wasn't banworthy prehome [at least not pre hsam] and anyone who was complaining back then probably played stall and was mad)

 

[YubelVT]

My stance is starting to change. I'd probably prioritize targeting mons like Manaphy, Sneasler and Stored Power over Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, and even Gliscor. The latter 4 Pokemon, even if they are arguably stronger, at least bring crucial defensive utility to a team that is borderline necessary given the power level of the metagame. Its hard for me to really argue the same about Manaphy and Sneasler, which IMO don't add nearly as much to the tier. Manaphy pretty much 6-0s most balance teams with no issue and is mostly a pick that HO styles will be using. Its incredibly lethal on webs, and pretty much the only counter that isn't fringe is Ogerpon-W. Sneasler is starting to dive into a bunch of different sets beyond its standard Acrobatics set that is making counterplay consistently harder. One that I've seen is SD / Dire Claw / Shadow Claw / CC with Tera Ghost, that completely cooks Gholdengo and Zapdos, and is basically relying on a Static proc from Zapdos in order to not lose the game. I've also been completely destroy by SubSD Tera Ghost sets. Sneasler does have the weakness of really only getting one shot, but Dire Claw makes getting that shot quite a bit easier with random Paralysis free turns or Sleep free turns, though it does have to pick its poison there with Gliscor roaming around. Hawlucha would be significantly more managable with its attack being nearly 40 points lower.

As for Stored Power, shit is just extremely cheap and shouldn't have any place in a competitive metagame. There are so many bullshit Stored Power sweepers I can name off the top of my head, from Clefable, Cresselia, Armarouge, Hatterene, Polteageist, the list just goes on and on. Is it Tera's fault? Maybe, but its not like getting free setup turns from other shit like Screens, Paralysis, etc. isn't a possibility and this move mostly being a match-up check for whether I bring a Whirlwinder / Hazer / Encorer elicits memories of Baton Pass. In fact, one could argue that Stored Power was a factor in getting Baton Pass banned, as a super boosted (or even moderately boosted) Espeon virtually had no counterplay when using the move.

honestly you could even drop CC and run acrobatics on the sneasler set you mentioned to dick on the rare unaware clefable, but also sneasler isn't good at breaking through stall and that's why it has teammates

 

[bigasschungusboi]

At this point im pretty sure Buzzwole is just trolling or being dense like "just iron head the hatt bro" if it were as easy as how you're selling it why has it been brought up multiple times and even been seen on a survey at some point?

I believe that we need to address worse aspects of the tier like Ghold but constantly discrediting valid takes with paper thin rebuttals isn't productive.

 

[YNM]

My stance is starting to change. I'd probably prioritize targeting mons like Manaphy, Sneasler and Stored Power over Gholdengo, Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, and even Gliscor.

How about we ban them all and call it a day? I agree that Manaphy and Sneasler are problematic and more than likely busted, but that does not make Dengo, Gambit and most importantly Gliscor any less worthy of an eventual ban as well. I don't think that we should be excluding certain ban discussions simply because there are other threats parallel to the ones that we are currently reviewing, otherwise we'll end up postponing every single mon suspected in the tier, and get not a single one of them banned. Let's reflect on each mon and their problems, and then come out with a decision on what to do. Is Gliscor toxic, problematic and overcentralizing in this current meta? IMO the answer is a resounding yes and it should therefore get banned, regardless of any other threat. We can then proceed to suspect all of the others if the community agrees.

As for Stored Power, shit is just extremely cheap and shouldn't have any place in a competitive metagame. There are so many bullshit Stored Power sweepers I can name off the top of my head, from Clefable, Cresselia, Armarouge, Hatterene, Polteageist, the list just goes on and on. Is it Tera's fault? Maybe, but its not like getting free setup turns from other shit like Screens, Paralysis, etc. isn't a possibility and this move mostly being a match-up check for whether I bring a Whirlwinder / Hazer / Encorer elicits memories of Baton Pass. In fact, one could argue that Stored Power was a factor in getting Baton Pass banned, as a super boosted (or even moderately boosted) Espeon virtually had no counterplay when using the move.

I hate Stored Power with a passion, but I disagree on this one. First of all, Cresselia, Armarouge and Hatterene are not nearly as problematic as mons like Manaphy, Clef and Polteageist, due to a substantial difference on their SP sweep strategy. Armarouge, like Ceruledge, relies on Weak Armor + Sash to outspeed and sweep the opposing team, and you can therefore play around it in order to revenge kill it or simply disrupt its setup attempt, as long as you play well and carefully. Cresselia should never be mentioned as a problem as long as you play well and have a decent team, because it is way too gimmicky, slow, weak and inconsistent to ever be a threat. If you let it get to +1000 on each stat and then lose to SP, then you're doing something wrong and should review your plays. Hatterene is slow enough to be threaten by Physical attackers as soon as it tries to setup with CM, and it also has moves that are way too weak to be immediately threatening, even after one or two CMs (Mystical Fire has 75 BP, Draining Kiss 50, and even Stored Power rarely goes over 100 unless you just sit there and let it setup). This means that Special walls can actually come in and disrupt its attempts to sweep, which is why the most popular sweeper set actually runs Psyshock instead (which is much more consistent since you don't need to waste 2 or 3 turns for it to hit hard). Polteageist, on the other end, relies on a whole team strategy in order to sweep, which is Psychic Terrain/Psychic-spam. That strategy, despite being annoying, has its own flaws and it's very gimmicky, especially in the current meta. In particular, Polteageist is pretty much fucked if it gets its Sash broken by something as simple as Stealth Rocks, considering how frail it is, meaning that you can OHKO it with a decently strong neutral move before it even Shell Smashes. Finally, Unaware Clef is extremely annoying to deal with, but it's way too slow in its attempts and it can get threatened as it tries to setup, unless you have a very unlucky team matchup or you misplay. And while you may not like to run them in your team, the fact of the matter is that there are several moves that can easily prevent a setup attempt, just like you said, such as Whirlwind/Roar, Encore, Taunt or even Trick. Also, Dark-types are literally immune to that move, so the argument for it being broken gets even worse.

Manaphy and stuff like Espathra, both of which have Stored Power, are broken for other reasons besides having that move, and should be considered as separate cases.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

At this point im pretty sure Buzzwole is just trolling or being dense like "just iron head the hatt bro" if it were as easy as how you're selling it why has it been brought up multiple times and even been seen on a survey at some point?

I believe that we need to address worse aspects of the tier like Ghold but constantly discrediting valid takes with paper thin rebuttals isn't productive.

stored power was never on a survey. it has never been on a survey. it will never be on a survey because it is not a problem and the vast, vast majority of the playerbase agrees with this. there have been exactly four people to this point who have complained about stored power and they're all using the same "but it breaks 3 thiiiings" argument, which i've already taken the liberty of debunking multiple times

 

[KamenOH]

These are the kind of generations that make you believe democracy was a mistake and it's time for fascism.

Hope im the last comment about this but take it from an amateur: dictatorships are only desirable when you are on top. Then again, im almost certain but nearly everyone here could reasonably claim to be the one smart person in a crowd of dumbasses.
The average person is fucking stupid, and half of humanity is below average, but thats half of all humanity vs you.
TLDR: democracy sucks, but unless youre willing to give it to ME, its what you get.

@OU Council peeps uuum...

Yea your forum is derailing again. Think you can do something about this? Never would I have thought Gliscor would cause this much negativity

We can move on from this and talk about other things. Like (for example), what's an off meta pick or moveset you're using in the current metagame? You all know I'm using Forretress and someone managed to get #1 on the ladder with IRON JUGULIS let me remind you.

Is it off meta when youre trying to replicate a past meta? Been workshopping an Arctibax/Frigibax (whichever's the middle stage its forgettable af either way) to try and replace Baxcalibur

EDIT: wait why was bax banned? shit would crumple in the hazard hell we have today.

 

[ButWhyThough_2]

this is honestly a mess, just why are you guys so adamant in not listening to others opinions and are instead just forcing your's on everyone else?

 

[Welcome to mars]

Hope im the last comment about this but take it from an amateur: dictatorships are only desirable when you are on top. Then again, im almost certain but nearly everyone here could reasonably claim to be the one smart person in a crowd of dumbasses.
The average person is fucking stupid, and half of humanity is below average, but thats half of all humanity vs you.
TLDR: democracy sucks, but unless youre willing to give it to ME, its what you get.


Is it off meta when youre trying to replicate a past meta? Been workshopping an Arctibax/Frigibax (whichever's the middle stage its forgettable af either way) to try and replace Baxcalibur

EDIT: wait why was bax banned? shit would crumple in the hazard hell we have today.

baxcalibur would still be broken because under the counter help from alolan ninetales, even if it was the main why the first week of post dlc ou was so fun

this is honestly a mess, just why are you guys so adamant in not listening to others opinions and are instead just forcing your's on everyone else?

this is the last straw, i am sick of these weather fanboys and their anti terrain meta PROPAGANDA, because the fact is, you need sneasler to save you! You do, you all rely on on sneasler, rillaboom and even sinstcha in some way, you were never the real playerbase, you never were

ok in all seriousness calm down guys its just a kids game

 

[YNM]

if it were as easy as how you're selling it why has it been brought up multiple times and even been seen on a survey at some point?

They never have.

We can move on from this and talk about other things. Like (for example), what's an off meta pick or moveset you're using in the current metagame? You all know I'm using Forretress and someone managed to get #1 on the ladder with IRON JUGULIS let me remind you.

I've gotten top 50 with a Weavile+Thundurus-T team, and it was actually pretty solid. The reason why I decided to use Weavile is that the Loaded Dice + Icicle Spear set is a great anti-meta pick that is able to disrupt Sashed/Sturdy leads such as Ribombee, Ogerpon and Tusk, and thanks to Knock Off it can also deal with HDB spam teams and other annoying items. On top of this, Low Kick is often able to pickup unexpected Kingambit's KOs (although arguably this was more effective a month ago, before I made everybody aware of that possibility...), while Ice Shard is just a great priority move overall (yes, I runned 4 moves with no SD). Scarfed Thundurus-T on the other hand is an unexpected mon that can revenge kill a lot of stuff with Terablast Flying coming off its 145 Special Attack, and it has saved my ass multiple times in several matches. In particular, Terablast Flying can pick important KOs such as Manaphy after it uses Tera Grass, Zamazenta, Dragapult after Stealth Rock damage and so on.
Right now on the other hand I'm trying to get on high ladder with Lando-T on a new account, first time using it ever since its comeback, and I'm actually quite surprised by how good it has been doing. This mon REALLY needs Knock Off, but Intimidate is such a great ability that really offers a lot of utility to the team and it is enough to carry this mon in OU. Being able to switch into Sneasler and other Physical threats to revenge kill them is really valuable. Still, I have many more games to play since I made the account today, so I'll update you guys on how it goes.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

this is honestly a mess, just why are you guys so adamant in not listening to others opinions and are instead just forcing your's on everyone else?

because the other people's opinions i don't listen to are shit like "i don't know how to play around stored power so we should ban it" or "we should unban darkrai because i crafted this objectively terrible set and called it optimal" instead of "hey maybe we should take care of the stuff people voted about on the survey". i do listen to opposing viewpoints that aren't ridiculous—most notably, i completely flipped on gholdengo, and my views on stuff like gliscor and aurora veil/atales have changed over time

@OU Council peeps uuum...

Yea your forum is derailing again. Think you can do something about this? Never would I have thought Gliscor would cause this much negativity

We can move on from this and talk about other things. Like (for example), what's an off meta pick or moveset you're using in the current metagame? You all know I'm using Forretress and someone managed to get #1 on the ladder with IRON JUGULIS let me remind you.

i've been using the freeze-dry/tera blast/rapid spin/recover expert belt cryogonal set i brought up several pages ago and it's been doing pretty damn well at breaking through the gholdscor core. seriously, guys, try this thing, the coverage is kinda nutty

 

[Roshino]

Watching some 1700-1800 matches on ladder, I've seen a few Glaceons here and there. I mean, they were absolutely smashed as expected but god damn it is depressing to see the bottom of the barrel being scraped so thoroughly.


Someone asked about off-meta picks - Drain punch/thunder punch/ice punch/mach punch Conkeldurr is a hell of a wallbreaker that opens up holes in big stall compositions, while status immunity is outright dope.

It is very vulnerable to hazards, but it'll stay in pressuring with SE coverage and safe Drain punches for longevity and stab, and it hits hard enough that it'll make a dent on anything trying to switch in, likely only switching out on a revenge kill attempt.
Even full def Corviknight can't OHKO back and it'll take over 40% switching in (Drain Punch regens and it is slower than Corvi, so it is stuck in a very awkward Roost and die, or switch situation).

Thunder/Ice Punch allows for some crazy coverage. Pex, Gliscor, Landorus, Dondozo - all of them get absolutely wrecked by SE damage. You could even run Knock Off - coverage-wise it isn't as great as BoltBeam, but it threatens Gholdengo. Clefable will regardless fuck you up though lol so account for that when teambuilding

Mach Punch covers for low speed and finishes off targets that are faster and could threaten to OHKO back.

Calc wall:

Spoiler

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 352-416 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 246-291 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed
2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 186-220 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 156-184 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (in Mach Punch range)
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 318-374 (111.5 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 362-426 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Samurott-Hisui: 512-606 (159.5 - 188.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 440-520 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 342-404 (114.3 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 846-996 (129.7 - 152.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 350-414 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 180-212 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 424-500 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

[Highv0ltag3]

How about we ban them all and call it a day? I agree that Manaphy and Sneasler are problematic and more than likely busted, but that does not make Dengo, Gambit and most importantly Gliscor any less worthy of an eventual ban as well. I don't think that we should be excluding certain ban discussions simply because there are other threats parallel to the ones that we are currently reviewing, otherwise we'll end up postponing every single mon suspected in the tier, and get not a single one of them banned. Let's reflect on each mon and their problems, and then come out with a decision on what to do. Is Gliscor toxic, problematic and overcentralizing in this current meta? IMO the answer is a resounding yes and it should therefore get banned, regardless of any other threat. We can then proceed to suspect all of the others if the community agrees.

I hate Stored Power with a passion, but I disagree on this one. First of all, Cresselia, Armarouge and Hatterene are not nearly as problematic as mons like Manaphy, Clef and Polteageist, due to a substantial difference on their SP sweep strategy. Armarouge, like Ceruledge, relies on Weak Armor + Sash to outspeed and sweep the opposing team, and you can therefore play around it in order to revenge kill it or simply disrupt its setup attempt, as long as you play well and carefully. Cresselia should never be mentioned as a problem as long as you play well and have a decent team, because it is way too gimmicky, slow, weak and inconsistent to ever be a threat. If you let it get to +1000 on each stat and then lose to SP, then you're doing something wrong and should review your plays. Hatterene is slow enough to be threaten by Physical attackers as soon as it tries to setup with CM, and it also has moves that are way too weak to be immediately threatening, even after one or two CMs (Mystical Fire has 75 BP, Draining Kiss 50, and even Stored Power rarely goes over 100 unless you just sit there and let it setup). This means that Special walls can actually come in and disrupt its attempts to sweep, which is why the most popular sweeper set actually runs Psyshock instead (which is much more consistent since you don't need to waste 2 or 3 turns for it to hit hard). Polteageist, on the other end, relies on a whole team strategy in order to sweep, which is Psychic Terrain/Psychic-spam. That strategy, despite being annoying, has its own flaws and it's very gimmicky, especially in the current meta. In particular, Polteageist is pretty much fucked if it gets its Sash broken by something as simple as Stealth Rocks, considering how frail it is, meaning that you can OHKO it with a decently strong neutral move before it even Shell Smashes. Finally, Unaware Clef is extremely annoying to deal with, but it's way too slow in its attempts and it can get threatened as it tries to setup, unless you have a very unlucky team matchup or you misplay. And while you may not like to run them in your team, the fact of the matter is that there are several moves that can easily prevent a setup attempt, just like you said, such as Whirlwind/Roar, Encore, Taunt or even Trick. Also, Dark-types are literally immune to that move, so the argument for it being broken gets even worse.

Manaphy and stuff like Espathra, both of which have Stored Power, are broken for other reasons besides having that move, and should be considered as separate cases.

Wtf??? No? Espathra is only broken cuz of Stored Power + Speed Boost. Go ahead and try to win a game using Lumina Crash instead of SP Lmfao. No offense, but reading this made my eyeballs almost pop out lmfao.

 

[LovelyLuna]

I really don't get the stored power hype, there are many pokemon with the move that are completely fine, if not pushed down to the depths of ru (Armarouge brought up, seriously?). Sure, a select few pokemon are problematic with it, but there are many more factors arguably more impactful than stored power itself. If you let these pokemon set up to +4 or something that is usually on you.

Is it off meta when youre trying to replicate a past meta? Been workshopping an Arctibax/Frigibax (whichever's the middle stage its forgettable af either way) to try and replace Baxcalibur

EDIT: wait why was bax banned? shit would crumple in the hazard hell we have today.

Only needs to come in once, very free to SD and Scale Shot under veil and snow, esp with the option to Tera. Dondozo is pretty much the only thing stopping Bax's rampage, dumb mon no one wants to deal with.

 

[tigers jaw]

the only users of stored power that are anywhere near broken all have unique factors that position them to make such strong usage of it

mage has 2 (well, 3 ig) ways to boost, one of which offering 3 +1s at once whilst doubling speed, the other raising its spatt, alongside ridiculous bulk, godlike typing, a million sets, & perfect coverage

espathra is obvious

mana has crazy bulk, water-typing, perfect coverage, tail glow, aa, & take heart

cress is just unkillable & should be banned by virtue of being so annoying

lol armarouge

 

[Cuddly]

I really don't get the stored power hype, there are many pokemon with the move that are completely fine, if not pushed down to the depths of ru (Armarouge brought up, seriously?). Sure, a select few pokemon are problematic with it, but there are many more factors arguably more impactful than stored power itself. If you let these pokemon set up to +4 or something that is usually on you.


Only needs to come in once, very free to SD and Scale Shot under veil and snow, esp with the option to Tera. Dondozo is pretty much the only thing stopping Bax's rampage, dumb mon no one wants to deal with.

Don’t forget, Power Trip exists too, which is better than Stored Power because nothing is immune to it. If Stored Power is broken, the Power Trip is even more broken.

 

[Funkytown]

We can move on from this and talk about other things. Like (for example), what's an off meta pick or moveset you're using in the current metagame? You all know I'm using Forretress and someone managed to get #1 on the ladder with IRON JUGULIS let me remind you.

I've recently been trying out Rotom-W along with Choice Band Meowscarada. I've been running with scarf and trick to try to cripple one of Meow's checks per game, then it's free to pivot around with Meow, spreading burns where it can. I have to say it's not too impressive at the moment, but it does manage to handle some walls fairly well.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

the only users of stored power that are anywhere near broken all have unique factors that position them to make such strong usage of it

mage has 2 (well, 3 ig) ways to boost, one of which offering 3 +1s at once whilst doubling speed, the other raising its spatt, alongside ridiculous bulk, godlike typing, a million sets, & perfect coverage

espathra is obvious

mana has crazy bulk, water-typing, perfect coverage, tail glow, aa, & take heart

cress is just unkillable & should be banned by virtue of being so annoying

lol armarouge

i disagree about cress. she's cursed with an absolutely terrible base typing, so she's a lot more tera-reliant than your average mon. as the meta has evolved and changed, people have learned how to play around common tera types and when the optimal time to tera is, which has caused a lot of tera-reliant mons like cress and garganacl to fall off somewhat. also, cress just straight-up cannot do damage before she sets up, so a good portion of the time she just ends up being gambit setup bait. yes, she can be annoying, but she's definitely not banworthy

 

[658Greninja]

Saying

Gotta say I completely disagree, Stored Power is uncompetitve bullshit, I just played a stall game where the opposing Polteageist used Shell Smash and 6-0d with zero prep or positioning. Sinistcha is a miserable Pokémon to face when it tera poisons, the stored power + take heart Manaphy set can't be worn down with toxic, literally the only questionable Manaphy set, hatterene is immune to status and utility moves; unaware Pokémon still get smashed by stored power when they should be reliable counters to setup, Magearna and Espathra were banned for their abuse of stored power, the former being a Pokémon that would be a very valuable versatile and useful presence in this metagame if it weren't able to use stored power cheese, so on and so on. I don't think this move is competitve or balanced and it's broken on at least 6 Pokémon. Obviously other metagames are not great comparison points but BH is just giving stored power or power trip to every sweeper. If there's any move that's a picture of "uncompetitive on most users" it's this one

You need to stop condescending to people and make an effort to listen to and understand other people's perspective as well as have more respect for it, Magcargo has been engaging with this community for over 15 years and has been contributing to suspects reliably, gets reqs almost every time, he is a smart creative and good player. You were doing the same to Quacc in the Gliscor thread who is one of the most skilled and knowledgeable players I've met and I have learned a lot from him, even though I disagree with his position on Gliscor

“My ass just got 6-0d by a Double Dance Stored Power Calyrex. Ban this shit oml.”

Espathra and Magearna were problematic outside of SP. For a move to be busted and need bans, it would have to be so utterly insane that it propels a PU mon into being broken (like Houndstone).

None of the current SP mons are warping the meta to an unhealthy degree like Gliscor is rn. Not Clef, not Cress, not Hatt, not Polt, not Armarogue, not even Manaphy. The meta has several counterplay options to these sweepers.

Encore and Haze are valid counterplay cause most of these sweeers have mediocre damage output if they can’t get multiple boosts. Haze also goes past Hatt. These options are also accessible to most builds. Waterpon, Valiant, Clef, Hamu, Milo, Pex.

You can also just brute force them cause this is SV OU and you have plenty of options to mow past them.

So far the only complaints are from Manaphy cause Scald burns and speed make it less likely for a sweep to be halted.

Also a big thing with these setup sweepers is that they’re very Tera reliant. I don’t get the discourse.

 

[YNM]

Wtf??? No? Espathra is only broken cuz of Stored Power + Speed Boost. Go ahead and try to win a game using Lumina Crash instead of SP Lmfao. No offense, but reading this made my eyeballs almost pop out lmfao.

Espathra is only broken cuz of Stored Power + Speed Boost.

Manaphy and stuff like Espathra, both of which have Stored Power, are broken for other reasons besides having that move, and should be considered as separate cases.

Espathra is ONLY broken cuz of Stored Power + Speed Boost.

My brother in Christ, what do you think "other reasons besides having that move" means? Speed Boost is a substantial factor in Espathra's brokenness, since it gives it literally free boosts to power up that move and outspeed any mon that would otherwise revenge kill it, making it a busted sweeping machine. If Espathra didn't have Speed Boost it would NOT be broken. Again, other reasons besides.