Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i'd like to change topic for a little bit, because i noticed something very troubling while i was looking at the "movesets" section of the 1695 stats. in that section, it has a list of other details, like who a mon's most common partners are, but there's one thing the 1695 stats have that the 1825 ones don't: the list of checks and counters. basically, it shows all the mons that either ko or force out a given mon a majority of the time—what i personally would refer to as consistent checks. normally, a pokemon has plenty of these. for example, here's the list of great tusk's consistent checks/counters:

most pokemon tend to have around ten of these or so, even problematic ones like gliscor:

of course, these statistics don't communicate the situation perfectly—statistics rarely do. some mons don't ko or force out things on their own, but will do something else instead, like inflicting a status condition and then pivoting to something else. so it's possible that some mons have a shorter list of checks and counters because of that, or lack of data, or because a mon's main way of forcing things out might be through phazing, or other things. for example, despite not being a mon anyone is really complaining about or considering broken, dragonite has a surprisingly low number of consistent checks listed, likely because one of its biggest weaknesses is status conditions so a lot of its actual checks pivot out:

but despite these shortcomings that make the "checks and counters" list not entirely indicative of how problematic or strong a given mon is, i think it can serve as a potential indicator of problems, as seen by the list for roaring moon being quite short:

now, keeping that in mind, this is the list of consistent checks and counters for sneasler.

i think we might have a problem here

 

[Narmy]

Been away from the game for a while until Gliscor one of my favorite drops
Banned to ubers
Smogon council when I catch you!

 

[Magcargo]

i'd like to change topic for a little bit, because i noticed something very troubling while i was looking at the "movesets" section of the 1695 stats. in that section, it has a list of other details, like who a mon's most common partners are, but there's one thing the 1695 stats have that the 1825 ones don't: the list of checks and counters. basically, it shows all the mons that either ko or force out a given mon a majority of the time—what i personally would refer to as consistent checks. normally, a pokemon has plenty of these. for example, here's the list of great tusk's consistent checks/counters:
View attachment 571537
most pokemon tend to have around ten of these or so, even problematic ones like gliscor:
View attachment 571538
of course, these statistics don't communicate the situation perfectly—statistics rarely do. some mons don't ko or force out things on their own, but will do something else instead, like inflicting a status condition and then pivoting to something else. so it's possible that some mons have a shorter list of checks and counters because of that, or lack of data, or because a mon's main way of forcing things out might be through phazing, or other things. for example, despite not being a mon anyone is really complaining about or considering broken, dragonite has a surprisingly low number of consistent checks listed, likely because one of its biggest weaknesses is status conditions so a lot of its actual checks pivot out:
View attachment 571539
but despite these shortcomings that make the "checks and counters" list not entirely indicative of how problematic or strong a given mon is, i think it can serve as a potential indicator of problems, as seen by the list for roaring moon being quite short:
View attachment 571540
now, keeping that in mind, this is the list of consistent checks and counters for sneasler.
View attachment 571541
i think we might have a problem here

The checks and counters section is normally just full of crap anyways. One of Gliscor's most common listed counters was Gholdengo, which is actually funny to think about because in practice its not far from the truth. That being said, other statistics listed some odd mons like Mightyena as Slowking's number one counter (????). Also, the fact that Manaphy is listed as Great Tusk's number one check is funny. In general, I'd take these list with a grain of salt.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The checks and counters section is normally just full of crap anyways. One of Gliscor's most common listed counters was Gholdengo, which is actually funny to think about because in practice its not far from the truth. That being said, other statistics listed some odd mons like Mightyena as Slowking's number one counter (????). Also, the fact that Manaphy is listed as Great Tusk's number one check is funny. In general, I'd take these list with a grain of salt.

mightyena isn't anywhere on slowking's checks and counters list or even mentioned on that page at all, you might be looking at different stats than i am. i don't mean to sound rude here, but i also have my doubts that the section is "just full of crap" unless you can point out exactly what's wrong with it besides "it's not listing the mons i think should be there in the order i think they should be", because i have more trust in the actual numbers pulled straight from showdown than in someone saying "x is a better check than y" and giving an on-paper explanation and maybe a couple anecdotal replays. and besides that, the fact that sneasler is, in practice, winning almost every matchup more than half the time is concerning to say the least

 

[Ctann]

i'd like to change topic for a little bit, because i noticed something very troubling while i was looking at the "movesets" section of the 1695 stats. in that section, it has a list of other details, like who a mon's most common partners are, but there's one thing the 1695 stats have that the 1825 ones don't: the list of checks and counters. basically, it shows all the mons that either ko or force out a given mon a majority of the time—what i personally would refer to as consistent checks. normally, a pokemon has plenty of these. for example, here's the list of great tusk's consistent checks/counters:
View attachment 571537
most pokemon tend to have around ten of these or so, even problematic ones like gliscor:
View attachment 571538
of course, these statistics don't communicate the situation perfectly—statistics rarely do. some mons don't ko or force out things on their own, but will do something else instead, like inflicting a status condition and then pivoting to something else. so it's possible that some mons have a shorter list of checks and counters because of that, or lack of data, or because a mon's main way of forcing things out might be through phazing, or other things. for example, despite not being a mon anyone is really complaining about or considering broken, dragonite has a surprisingly low number of consistent checks listed, likely because one of its biggest weaknesses is status conditions so a lot of its actual checks pivot out:
View attachment 571539
but despite these shortcomings that make the "checks and counters" list not entirely indicative of how problematic or strong a given mon is, i think it can serve as a potential indicator of problems, as seen by the list for roaring moon being quite short:
View attachment 571540
now, keeping that in mind, this is the list of consistent checks and counters for sneasler.
View attachment 571541
i think we might have a problem here

The main takeaway I had from this is that it’s not unreasonable to say dragonite is Op

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The main takeaway I had from this is that it’s not unreasonable to say dragonite is Op

the difference is, there are a lot of other mons that don't beat dragonite outright but can make very significant progress against it by statusing it. that kind of progress isn't made as easily against sneasler because sneasler just kind of kills everything

 

[Ctann]

the difference is, there are a lot of other mons that don't beat dragonite outright but can make very significant progress against it by statusing it. that kind of progress isn't made as easily against sneasler because sneasler just kind of kills everything

it implies forced trading tho, your status and trade your Pokémon to slow its sweep. asymmetric trading when d nite ko’s one and makes a dent in another

It’s obviously not blood moon level, but the fact that dragonite can do that is kinda a big deal

thought about it, it’s because few switch ins can 2hko d nite before being ko’d themselves. Especially on end game where it’s most common

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

it implies forced trading tho, your status and trade your Pokémon to slow its sweep. It’s obviously not blood moon level, but the fact that dragonite can do that is kinda a big deal

it's more about pivoting than forced trading, i think. like, if you bring in something specifically to burn or para dragonite that's capable of absorbing one hit from it, you can status it, let it absorb the hit, and then switch to something capable of absorbing more hits, and then the first thing doesn't "statistically count" as a check because it didn't kill or force dnite out? i don't know how the stats factor that in and i don't think they do. that said, i do agree that dragonite is really strong and hard to force out or kill once it gets going, and it does force a lot of trades now that i think about it, but i don't think it actually poses a problem right now

 

[Chlora]

the difference is, there are a lot of other mons that don't beat dragonite outright but can make very significant progress against it by statusing it. that kind of progress isn't made as easily against sneasler because sneasler just kind of kills everything

Dragonite does not need team support to work and always sets up for free. It's much harder to check because it has all the coverage it needs with eq, killing off anything that would resist espeed. Sneasler also hits like a somewhat soggy noodle against things that arent on HO without a sd or tera if it's not hitting for super effective

Making the "significant progress" you describe requires sacrifices. Burning dnite is something you need to sac a mon for to bring cincerace in safe, then take the +1 espeed and effectively die next turn
Heatran needs tera to not die immediately

 

[YNM]

Dragonite is completely busted because of Tera, let's not kid ourselves. Still, I'm surprised from the lack of Corviknight in its list of checks, considering that it is one of the best answers to it IMO. The Iron Defense and even the Bulk Up set can deal with Dnite pretty easily, and unless the latter runs Fire Punch it gets completely walled. Even Fire Punch is often not enough to break through Corvi due to its relatively low Base Power.

 

[FirstlyMe]

It's essential on stall, and if the alternative is losing the game, as it usually is with Psyshock vs stall, then Tera the Blissey. This is like calling Pelipper a noobtrap because it's only good on rain or Polteageist on psyspam

Yeah but stall isn’t even worth using now days

 

[FirstlyMe]

Honest opinion here, Kingambit and Iron Valiant aren’t as broken anymore. After the Kingambit suspect test, I still thought it was broken but now I’m like it’s really good but not broken, especially when Gliscor was still allowed. While Iron Valiant in my opinion still deserves a suspect test but I’m fine if it doesn't get one, it like one of those broken-ish mons. I’ll mention how Clodsire might come back as a Gliscor replacement since it has all the hazards like Gliscor, it has better-ish typing and it has better-ish bulk. Orthworm might make a return as well but chances seem slim with Iron Valiant running around. Okidogi and Fezandipiti have some seriously high chances to get a usage bump. Like seriously, Fezandipiti is just specially defensive Gliscor without hazards and Okidogi is basically a fusion of Sneasler and Buzzwole which got hindered by Gliscor heavily. “What about Munkidori?” You may be asking but tbh I think Munkidori isn’t that good or at least as good as the other 2. Dragonite will definitely get a usage bump. Some Pokémon like Greninja might drop in usage, maybe even back into UU, since it was a seriously good counter to Gliscor having ice beam, surf and hydro pump. I do personally think Terastalization should be checked out for suspect test though.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Honest opinion here, Kingambit and Iron Valiant aren’t as broken anymore. After the Kingambit suspect test, I still thought it was broken but now I’m like it’s really good but not broken, especially when Gliscor was still allowed.

I watched a dude nearly make it to top 500 on ladder with a team that consisted of 5 leads and a kingambit

 

[KamenOH]

I watched a dude nearly make it to top 500 on ladder with a team that consisted of 5 leads and a kingambit

Five Leads and a Kingambit? Think they made a movie about that just a few weeks ago.

 

[TheTraininator]

now, keeping that in mind, this is the list of consistent checks and counters for sneasler.
View attachment 571541
i think we might have a problem here

I’m 100% on the “Sneasler is broken/unhealthy” train and to some extent I have been since it touched the tier, but to be fair, I think another reasonable way to read this is “Unburden Sneasler does not like to switch out”.

 

[Bakugames]

Sneasler will stay even in clear reveng killers because once its done its job you can let it die and have something else clean up. It can come back later in the game like I said but if its taken a hit or two its easier to just ride the sneasler train. Skeledirge can be really nasty with torch song (esp sub sets) so its not wise to let sneasler throw itself at it, and clod is just very passive so you might as well cut your losses and try to regain momentum

 

[Chlora]

Yeah but stall isn’t even worth using now days

define "these days"? i got reqs for the gliscor suspect using stall

 

[Chlora]

Honest opinion here, Kingambit and Iron Valiant aren’t as broken anymore. After the Kingambit suspect test, I still thought it was broken but now I’m like it’s really good but not broken, especially when Gliscor was still allowed. While Iron Valiant in my opinion still deserves a suspect test but I’m fine if it doesn't get one, it like one of those broken-ish mons. I’ll mention how Clodsire might come back as a Gliscor replacement since it has all the hazards like Gliscor, it has better-ish typing and it has better-ish bulk. Orthworm might make a return as well but chances seem slim with Iron Valiant running around. Okidogi and Fezandipiti have some seriously high chances to get a usage bump. Like seriously, Fezandipiti is just specially defensive Gliscor without hazards and Okidogi is basically a fusion of Sneasler and Buzzwole which got hindered by Gliscor heavily. “What about Munkidori?” You may be asking but tbh I think Munkidori isn’t that good or at least as good as the other 2. Dragonite will definitely get a usage bump. Some Pokémon like Greninja might drop in usage, maybe even back into UU, since it was a seriously good counter to Gliscor having ice beam, surf and hydro pump. I do personally think Terastalization should be checked out for suspect test though.

"I’ll mention how Clodsire might come back as a Gliscor replacement since it has all the hazards like Gliscor, it has better-ish typing and it has better-ish bulk" in what world lmfao? clodsire is 130/60/100 while gliscor is 75/125/75. gliscor is less specially bulky but clodsire will never get to compare to it physically. clodsire's typing is bad, having common weaknesses in water, ground, ice & moth's psychic. clodsire does not wall tusk while gliscor does, able to always survive proto atk ice spinner. it will never be a replacement because it isn't nearly as risk-free to play, since clodsire consumes PP to heal while gliscor does not + has knock of + beats the best spinner (for a grand total of 2 in the tier). it'll only be a mediocre mimic at best.
"Orthworm might make a return as well" it checks nothing long term because it has no recovery. if you want a suicide lead use glimmora, this has nothing to do with iron valiant. if anything, orthworm is generally good vs it because most valiant are calm mind.
"Fezandipiti is just specially defensive Gliscor without hazards" yeah, guess what, spikes is what pushed gliscor over the edge. poison weakness is also a liability with barely any upsides when Enamorus runs earth power, moth runs psychic and valiant runs psyshock. does also not passively heal, does not switch into lots of physical attackers for free. does not support its team.
"You may be asking but tbh I think Munkidori isn’t that good or at least as good as the other 2." It's literally the best of the 3. Fast with pivoting, unlike okidogi, and has strong stabs that are hard to resist while packing a punch, unlike fezan.

 

[RaikouLover]

Five Leads and a Kingambit? Think they made a movie about that just a few weeks ago.

This is the metagame the community wanted.

Dragonite is completely busted because of Tera, let's not kid ourselves.

Almost like there is a trend here? It’s stupidly easy for Dragonite to get 2 DDs. We used to be able to whack it with Ice moves, or send out a >80 base speed Scarfer to RK or Trick it. Now they just get slapped by +1 STAB Extremespeed.

Y’all wanted this.

 

[Star⭐]

This thread is complaining about Dragonite now? Lmao. Seems like we're spinning a roulette to choose a completely random pokemon to get mad at, who will it be next? I suggest uhh...[flipping coin] mandibuzz, it's just too OP because it can use tera dark to power up foul play

 

[awyp]

This thread is complaining about Dragonite now? Lmao. Seems like we're spinning a roulette to choose a completely random pokemon to get mad at, who will it be next? I suggest uhh...[flipping coin] mandibuzz, it's just too OP because it can use tera dark to power up foul play

To be honest and objective because I hate a lot of mons, the only ones out of the OU list we should be prioritizing is [Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, Sneasler, and Gholdengo]

 

[RaikouLover]

To be honest and objective because I hate a lot of mons, the only ones out of the OU list we should be prioritizing is [Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, Sneasler, and Gholdengo]

All broken. Except string cheese man. He’s holding this tier together. Garganacl is in the corner with a bowl of popcorn.. waiting for these mons to get banned.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This thread is complaining about Dragonite now? Lmao. Seems like we're spinning a roulette to choose a completely random pokemon to get mad at, who will it be next? I suggest uhh...[flipping coin] mandibuzz, it's just too OP because it can use tera dark to power up foul play

at least there's some reasons to complain about dragonite. i've seen entire discussions arise from people wanting to ban amoonguss, corviknight, and—i shit you not—dunsparce

 

[Smashburn]

To be honest and objective because I hate a lot of mons, the only ones out of the OU list we should be prioritizing is [Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, Sneasler, and Gholdengo]

Can't forget Manaphy either, though I totally agree with that list. Gholdengo especially, it's stupidly constricting.

On another note, how has everyone adjusted to building this gen? I've found the lack of good defensive steels to be rather painful even with increase of viable defensive fire and poison-types. Answering Clefable, Iron Valiant, and Enamorus always feels like a chore when teambuilding. Clefable especially; the pink blob simply refuses to die and unless you've got a sponge that can soak up Knock Off and status *cough Gholdengo cough* you're out of luck. Some exaggeration of course, but point being that teambuilding has gotten noticeably tighter this generation. Not to mention the boatload of bans we've received with more on the way.

 

[pika pal]

If Gholdengo is the thing holding the tier together then I think that speaks more to how broken the tier is, because a Pokemon whose ability literally shuts down any technique besides "hit me in the face" seems pretty conducive to the HO Hellhole everyone views the tier as, despite ostensibly being here for defensive utility. That's not holding the tier together, that's standing on top of the pile of bodies the game has turned into. Can't even Taunt the jerk without Mold Breaker so it's not even like it's playing the same slugfest restriction itself. All kinds of counterplay that works against Set-up or Utility Pokemon (yet people do believe is overcentralizing/unhealthy that it has to be relied on) doesn't even work: Nasty Plot is riskless even with Encore spam, Taunt can't stop recovery if you're faster but can't OHKO, and utility/set-up sets just "no u" Trick Attempts despite often employing it themselves. The last one is hilarious to me because between it and Defog interaction it somehow makes Gholdengo less busted to have Magic Bounce, which is already a candidate for one of the best Abilities in OU (divorced from who it ends up attached to).

Unless we deem a HO meta acceptable once the "2 Brain cells necessary" Mons are dealt with, Gholdengo feels like he'd have to go as well, because what will beat a Ghold team besides Beatdown on Ghold? Recovery, an absurd typing, and immunity to anything that isn't a direct attack kind of leaves team styles like balance or Stall strapped for options to deal with 1 Mon that's incredibly easy to slot in, despite the fact we have seen Stall as a style work even in incredibly offense-powerful Metas like Gen 5 Weather or the Mega Eras (and even in Gen 9 it has had its share of successes without Gliscor, despite the obvious Golden pothole).

Gholdengo is designed like that spoiled kid who wouldn't lose pretend games on the Playground (or as a facetious "lol powercreep" joke on Stinkpost Stunday)
"I'm Superman strong against a bunch of your moves"
"I have a big move that's better than the other big moves (Draco/Overheat)"
"You can't use Status moves but I can"
"My stats can do anything"

If this is the thing one considers to hold the tier together, that feels definitive "broken checking broken" and should be grounds to ban Gholdengo specifically because it'll make clear what broken things were only under the radar because of actual Cheese.

And if anyone brings up prioritizing Tera again or such: Gholdengo is a fundamentally uncompetitive Pokemon by its base kit without the mechanic for match-up flips, and if you want action against Tera, THOSE are the kind of Pokemon that need to go first to give a proper view of what the Meta is like with "only" Pokemon broken by Tera left to juggle. No one was gonna call Tera broken while we were dealing with a Metagame warped by Flutter Mane or Iron Bundle in early SV, and while Gholdengo is nowhere near their level, I hold to the same principle that its warped effect on the Metagame doesn't paint an accurate picture for how many problems are Teras fault.