Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Magcargo]

About Garganacl and heatran… aka very reliable bulky Pokémon that easily make progress when they can switch in regularly..

with each ban of a high powered threat, we see these creep up gradually.

It’s hard to see garganacl as broken, but heatran is notorious for being extremely difficult to deal with in any meta where it can function.

and now, we see heatran starting to kick in a little more with each ban.

there’s a high likelihood that sneasler will be banned, so that’s one less threat for heatran, and then chances are ogerpon and manaphy will be up for discussion, etc etc.

Relatively speaking, Heatran still got giga nerfed this gen with no Toxic. Other options like Wisp / Rocks, while good utility in there own right, ain't gonna help it break past Slowking or Ting-Lu like it could in prior metagames. Tera + Tera Blast maybe could do something similar to what Heatran did before, but imo that is still a big commitment, that also isn't as likely to pay off as one might expect.

Nonetheless, I do agree Heatran is getting a lit better, which is great to see given its Rough showing earlier in thd gen.

 

[redninjapuffle]

Getting back on track...we have a brand new tiering survey!!! Fill it out now as it's our last chance to improve the DLC1 metagame

Oh boy here we go again

 

[Return to Zero]

I better see some high scores for Gambit, Sneasler, and Gholdengo this time around. I'll burn a house down. Might even be yours! Why take the risk?

Also re;Heatran, I'm okay if this thing gets stronger. It's a defensive presence the tier is lacking and it'd be a shame for it to end the Teal Mask metagame with as bad a showing as it started with.

 

[Ctann]

Getting back on track...we have a brand new tiering survey!!! Fill it out now as it's our last chance to improve the DLC1 metagame

gambit 5, sneasler 5

cheese stick 2 for now, it doesn’t warp on its own, people only complain about it in tandem with hazards. Similar to Rillaboom looking really good thanks to Sneasler. More heatran, clodsire, etc is coming for OU.

Ogerpon and manaphy are in the 3-4 range for me. Not a problem yet, but can be very soon.

 

[Finchinator]

Getting back on track...we have a brand new tiering survey!!! Fill it out now as it's our last chance to improve the DLC1 metagame

5 -- It is broken with or without Dire Claw at this point. Unburden variants on Grassy Terrain offense with Tera Ghost and Tera Fly are ridiculous. I would even support a quickban if it has a big majority as it does not add anything to the metagame aside from Toxic Spikes soaking, but it is a substantial pain in the ass to teambuilders across each playstyle. I would be fine with a suspect, too, and ultimately will defer to the results, but I am a firm 5 and believe this among the most broken things right now.

4 or 5 -- I think this Pokemon is troublesome for a few reasons. First seems to be the Good as Gold dynamic in the tier, but truthfully while this is important and Spikes are still great, I do not find this to be the only reason or necessarily enough alone to ban it. However, NP + Recover, especially with a defensive Tera, almost forces Ruination Ting Lu (or one of a handful of other Pokemon) on balance or you to just use offense that keeps the pressure up. A bad Pokemon could have Good as Gold and it would be whatever -- viable for sure, but not enough to break the game. But Gholdengo is an elite Pokemon doing nasty things and even dictating some style patterns, so I think it deserves a suspect if we have the time and support personally.

4 -- I have voted ban on this before and it is just as good now despite more Pokemon being around. It is playable, but not the most healthy presence and can snowball into something unreasonable. I still firmly believe one day a suspect (and hopeful ban) will come here. Not sure if it will be before DLC2, but we must keep it in discussions.

3 as it is very cheesy and adds a bit of restriction in a sense that it forces a lot of pressure, a convenient Encore user, Unaware, or at least a timely Tera depending on the set and context a lot, which can strain building. I do not find it the most pressing and it is playable at least, so I do not mind waiting it out until DLC2 here.

2 or 3 -- very potent offensively, but hazards can limit it and I feel Amoonguss, Rillaboom, and some other forms of checking it are at good enough spots now. Everything can be abused by certain lines from Ogerpon-Wellspring and its teammates though and there is a ton going for it, so while entry may be limited, I would understand why some push for a suspect for sure and would never give it that much lower than this.

 

[Magcargo]

Enjoyability: 8
Balance: 8
Gholdengo: 1
Sneasler: 5
Kingambit: 1
Manaphy: 4
Ogerpon: 1

I'm ngl I've been enjoying this meta more with Gliscor gone. I haven't really found much to be broken besides Sneasler, though I would not be sad with Manaphy going at all as its really only there for cheese styles.

Aside from that, Ghold I don't think is problematic at all, at least not more problematic than it was in prior metagames. I have not found Gambit to be broken in quite some time, though maybe that's just the adaptations getting to me, and Ogerpon will be needed as long as Manaphy is in the tier.

 

[Roshino]

About Garganacl and heatran… aka very reliable bulky Pokémon that easily make progress when they can switch in regularly..

with each ban of a high powered threat, we see these creep up gradually.

It’s hard to see garganacl as broken, but heatran is notorious for being extremely difficult to deal with in any meta where it can function.

and now, we see heatran starting to kick in a little more with each ban.

there’s a high likelihood that sneasler will be banned, so that’s one less threat for heatran, and then chances are ogerpon and manaphy will be up for discussion, etc etc.

Heatran is annoying as hell but I think the 75% accuracy on Magma Storm REALLY holds it back. Further, its 4x weakness is tied to one of its best qualities (good typing), so Teraing is a big deal and it doesn't really want to Tera very often, meaning Gliscor's Ursaluna's ground stab, specifically helped it a lot. Maybe I'm missing something but I'm unsure if Roaring Moon's ban helped it much. I mean, the bans helped it a lot but I don't think it's a high power think but instead some of the matchups were absolutely brutal into it.


Now, Garganacl's best and worst traits don't share the abovementioned effects. First, Salt Cure is 100% accurate (well, it doesn't trap so it's the whole power vs consistency thing which I believe becomes more important the higher you go). Second, its worst quality is its godawful typing which will force you to tera (being a Tera sink is a drawback but being able to Tera it consistently is one consideration when teambuilding), and teraing won't cause it to lose its amazing anti-anti-tank ability. It doesn't just force progress, but immediately punishes one of its pre-tera counters (water-types) with double damage and has a powerful wincon in ID sets.

TLDR

Heatran is good, and Teraing flips its matchups but won't immediately make it more threatening and will actually hurt its typechart.
Garganacl HAS to tera, but Teraing morphs it from annoying to incredibly powerful. You have to build around having to Tera Garg almost every time but it will for sure make your team much stronger, even more now that people don't run Covert Cloak any longer.

 

[Arc]

4/5 I have not played a lot on ladder ever since the gliscor ban however I still think Gholdengo should be looked at for the future of the tier. With the very limited options for hazard removal in SV OU currently, the spikespam balance archetype has remained strong for pretty much the entirety of SV thanks to Gholdengo's excellent ability to completely block status and most importantly defog, whilst making rapid spinning very difficult thanks to its ghost typing. With Gliscor's introduction I think its fair to say Gholdengo was one of the most polarising topics of the metagame, due to its oppressive hazard removal blocking ability which was further bolstered by how easy it was to set up spikes on Gliscor, thanks to the latter's incredible longevity from Poison Heal. I definitely support for a suspect test/action on the mon, considering the future of SV if defog is not reintroduced in the upcoming DLC, whilst avoiding a metagame as unfun and frankly atrocious as the OLT meta, where everyone was just spamming Ting-Lu + Tera Ghost Gholdengo (might make a resurgence due to Gliscor's ban).

5/5 From the ladder I have played I can confidently say that 50% of my games are up against an opposing grassy terrain Sneasler team. The issue however is now that Gliscor is banned there are very very limited options to counter this mon. From fishing for hax with dire claw to completely sweeping teams with a single Tera Flying, decimating Iron Defense anti-sweepers such as Zamazenta and Corviknight with the Tera Ghost SClaw set; the amount of sets that can be run on Sneasler is insane and the guessing aspects of "is this lash out/shadow claw" or "could this be acrobatics" etc. definitely makes me lean towards ban on this mon rn. Going back to my point about counterplay, there is very little right now, with the exception of Dondozo and Dragonite - which loses to the ghost set anyways KEKW

3 or 4/5. Very strong mon which decimates almost all balance/stall, it has gotten slightly worse due to the resurgence of grassy terrain teams and band Rillaboom being everywhere rn, as well as not being able to use heavy-duty boots which is a big drawback however power whipping in terrain has almost no switchins, not even resists (Rillaboom gets 2HKOd)

2/5 Personally haven't had huge issues right now but the guessing games with this mon is crazy - few minutes ago I saw one of my teammates in a cash tour almost singlehandedly win an impossible matchup with Kingambit itself just to lose to a Kingambit mind game ROFL - however right now I think it is good for the tier and should 100% stay.

1/5 Cheese, destroys balance but with the amount of grassy terrain and Rillaboom around, as well as wellspring, it is very hard to pilot this without expending tera, a large investment.

 

[YNM]

Here we go again:
4/5 - We've talked enough about this mon, it 100% deserves a suspect due to how ridiculously it warps the meta around it. The only reason I didn't vote 5/5 is because I'd like to see Sneasler go first (even with a quickban), and it kinda holds the whole tier together.
5/5 - Once again, this dude needs no further words. The SD Unburden set is too overwhelming and it is clearly unhealthy for the tier. The sooner it gtfo the better.
5/5 - I hate this mon (competitively at least, I actually love it), it's everywhere and it is such a poor excuse of a revenge-killer. It doesn't award good plays, quite the opposite, and it has no reason to be reverse sweeping teams so easily just because of its stupid ability + Sucker Punch. Furthermore, Tera makes this thing stupidly overpowered.
5/5 - Uncompetitive garbage.
3/5 - Waterpon is extremely strong, and I understand anyone that might want it banned, but of course when you have 10 other threats running around in the OU tier you're not gonna pay that much attention to threat number 5 or whatever. There are mons whose presence feels way more unhealthy, and despite Waterpon being pretty problematic itself, it isn't a priority in my mind right now.
Suggested mon: bad dog.

 

[veti]

5, needs to be quickbanned
1, not because they aren't suspect worthy but because they aren't quickban worthy and we can't really do suspects rn

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

5, needs to be quickbanned
1, not because they aren't suspect worthy but because they aren't quickban worthy and we can't really do suspects rn

i mean, if you consider any of them banworthy in any capacity you should be voting 5, because the only way we're going to get this meta balanced before dlc2 is by quickbanning at least 3 of these mons

as for my votes, i voted 5 on all of them. every one of these mons needs to go, and the more we can kick out before dlc2 drops the better. especially gambit and ghold, because those have the least chance of dropping back down, and sneasler, which is the dumbest shit on the planet right now

 

[Roshino]

4/5 - I didn't vote a 5/5 because I truly believe it doesn't require a quickban but yeah it does warp the meta around it and I to this day don't understand why it gets Recover.
5/5 - I voted low last survey but after reading and listening closely I am convinced it should go, and fast. It's a shame - I really like its design
5/5 - please get me out
3/5 - Cheesy and I have mentioned before I have a deep distaste for pokemon that can end the game in a single setup turn. It also skips much of setup sweepers regular counterplay (status)
4/5 - Same thing - threatens to end the game in a single setup turn, with the addendum of hitting much harder and faster, as well as getting a spdef buff making it harder to revenge kill. It is not a 5/5 simply because its sets are very predictable (though it may and probably will change as people explore it further).

 

[quacc]

Gholdengo, 5. This mon is hilariously broken and there's no reason to defend it by saying that it's the hazard setters' fault. Yes, say what you will about Gliscor, but that suspect test is over. Gholdengo not only blocks defog, rapid spin, and mortal spin, but is also a menace against balance teams. Gholdengo is one of the reasons balance as a playstyle is near unviable, and I'd love to see it go. Even if you argue that there are hazard removal options through Gholdengo, most hazard setters do... actually... beat Great Tusk anyways... so what the hell??? Besides, even if hazards make Gholdengo much stronger, tell me which is easier to do: ban every god damn hazard setter in existence until Forretress becomes a top tier mon, or just ban one of the major reasons why hazards actually ARE overpowered? Yes, hazard removal is less, but even natdex has it banned, a tier with every defogger you could ask for. The issue with having something that threatens Gholdengo is that you also have to do well into the common hazards setters as well as the fact that you cannot click defog when you want. Let's say you get in a Moltres or Landorus-T. You can't even freely defog because if you do, Gholdengo forces you out or gets big chip on your removal, then goes into your strong mons in order to give you even less opportunities to defog. Gholdengo doesn't get carried by hazards, hazards are carried by IT. For the love of the tier, I hope he gets quickbanned.

Sneasler, 5. Cheap mon, very few answers, and those few answers can get haxxed out of a 1v1 pretty commonly. I think Sneasler should get quickbanned as well; helps keep grass spam down.

Kingambit, 4. Definitely really strong and oppressive at times, but I don't think Kingambit is overpowered in the traditional sense. I am voting a 4 solely off the fact that it is unhealthy in forcing the opponent to play incredibly awkwardly and passively to preserve their counters until the end, which requires damn near perfect play or slotting in a hard counter on your team in some form. Encore sets? Those need help switching in. Great Tusk? Tera/chipping it down will do the trick. Your own low kick jolly Kingambit??? Uh huh... Will-o-wisp? If you miss/face lum berry, you can get screwed. Breloom? Please... Yes, you can technically beat it, but it's still an unfair and unhealthy mon at times.

Manaphy, 3. Yes, Manaphy can be really strong with either set, but it's not thaaat bad, at least not right now. Beatable using whatever you use to defeat stored power sets, such as encore. Tail glow is really just a "screw off" to balance structures, which are pretty hard to come by, especially in a metagame where balance has OTHER things to worry about.

Ogerpon-Wellspring, 5. This is the only 5 I am giving that I don't think should get quickbanned, but it definitely should be the first suspect tested mon. This thing is downright unwallable. Amoonguss? You better have the right moves to punish this, otherwise you would get smashed by this thing. Another thing is that I think that this mon is heavily underexpored. Taunt spikes sets are incredibly strong, pivot sets with knock off basically have no good answers (Amoonguss gets knocked off and now it's taking hazards), and swords dance sets are, well, swords dance. Yes, you can limit its play with hazards, but this mon only needs a couple of turns to make games really difficult to play, if not win games on the spot. Also, traditional answers like Amoonguss can still get dropped by coverage moves. Ivy cudgel being a 100 bp 100% accurate move is also incredible, and the increased crit rate is really just the icing on the cake. That crit doesn't happen too often? Well, it's a 1 in 8 chance. A mon to have a 1 in 8 chance per attack to straight up send you packing is, well, horrifying, but it's definitely not the main reason why I think it should get banned.

As someone that has played a lot of games after the Gliscor ban, this metagame is genuinely uncompetitive to me. I either match up against some Rilla spam team or some weird ass team a 1600 made because, let's face it, the ladder is pretty dead and you will get incredibly unbalanced matchmaking.

I would probably jab at the fact that a ton of people said that banning Gliscor would increase the variety in teams, and oh how much I am laughing right now. Rillaboom and Sneasler definitely feel like top 5 mons in usage right now, but for now, we need to focus on what we've got, and this is the way I see us salvaging the tier.

 

[RS25802580]

5/5: The Big Cheese needs to be gholdengone. As both a defog blocker and the best spinblocker in the meta, it contributes to the dominance of hazard stack and webs to an unreasonable level. Things got better with the Gliscor ban, now let’s finish the job.

5/5: Cheesler is a broken sweeper with insufficient checks; let’s get the weasel out of here.

5/5: I don’t believe that Gambit with tera is ever going to be balanced. People have gotten a bit desensitized to it, but I still think that it requires an unreasonable amount of prep and is too constraining on the builder.

/

3/5: I don’t consider either of these mons to be an immediate priority, but they are absolutely worth keeping on the radar.

 

[awyp]

- 5/5 yeah, as ive said b4 on this thread, finch says at least it soaks up toxic spikes, cus i prior said it does no good to the tier, i stand corrected that's the one good thing it benefits the tier which doesn't say much since we have a bunch of poison types in the tier so it's not severely lacking in needing an absorber. this mon is extremely brainless, tera dark / ghost to power through its checks / counters like gholdengo. if gholdengo did get banned this thing becomes more broken then it already is. i hate this mon and hopefully it doesn't get unbanned if it does get quick banned (with community support of course). dire claw is broken, i think if it didn't have dire claw it still makes it suspect / ban worthy but you cannot ignore dire claw when making an arguement of how shit this mon is to the meta.

5/5 - yeah its broken, i dont really care to suspect it though it we plan on reversing bans prior to dlc2, cus i want it to be permanently banned, this shit shouldn't get unbanned if does get banned, yeah meta warping, meta defining mon, is the reason entry hazards is so difficult to remove without a question, great typing, fantastic bulk, just an ez pokemon to abuse and u have to prepare for it on builder, too overwhelming

3/5 - yeah homie can wait in the backseat i don't care addressing it now

3/5 - same here don't really think its broken anymore i would give it a soft 3, probably lower if there was more convo about it

3/5 - still a problem but i think we should probably address it after dlc2, i think it deserves attention later on (prob next year)

 

[SandVeil10]

5, needs to be quickbanned
1, not because they aren't suspect worthy but because they aren't quickban worthy and we can't really do suspects rn

Finchinator mentioned in another thread that one last suspect was still possible before DLC2, there's enough leeway to fit in a 10-day period for reqs + 2 days for the vote.


I've voted 5 on both Sneasler and Gholdengo on the survey, but I'm not sure which one of these two is the biggest problem right now.

On the one hand, Gholdengo has got a ludicrously good combination of great stats, an amazing movepool and an ability that not only makes it harder to cripple, but also sensibly weakens the already less-than-optimal hazard removal we have in the tier.

On the other hand, Unburden Sneasler can be very difficult to stop when it's sent in at the right time during a match. Its coverage options + the help of Tera + the added Defense from Grassy Seed all limit the amount of solid counterplay against it. I dunno if this is the most relevant of stats, but in the SCL, Sneas has got a 66% winrate over the 7 weeks that have been played, which is much higher than the other top 8-usage mons in the tournament. It just sounds too oppressive of a mon to have in the tier right now.

I'd be happy to see either of these two get banned/suspected all in all.

 

[Pando067]

- 5

- 4
Annoying? Yeah definitely, but it can't touch curse resttalk dozo (specific but eh whatever).
- 3
Might feel more broken when new toy syndrome wears off
- 4
Kills stall/balance and bo. Manaphy get's cooked by ho
- 4
Crazy vs non-rilla. Basically playing 5-6 vs rilla

Too tired to elaborate

 

[ianlazerbeem]

tiering survey time! I voted pretty harshly for fun and balance this time, giving both only a 2. To me the metagame feels very centralized around Hyper Offense with very low viability for balance and stall teams, which is an fundamnetally unbalanced meta in my eyes, I believe a more balanced meta would feature several viable team styles, whereas we have now the so-called "Big 3" - Glimmora HO, Rillaboom HO, and Webs HO. Stall and Balance are still kicking but so much has to go so much better to make these styles work right now than in the case of HO archetypes

4/5 - I think I'm disappointing big stall by not giving man a 5 but I think the challenges it faces now and the fact that I believe its affect on the hazard meta is a bit overstated lower it a place. But my issues stem from how valuable of a spinblocker it is being combined with the offensive and support merits. Nasty Plot isn't AS bad as it was with Clodsire being a more reasonable pick now that Gliscor is dead, freeing up Blissey's set more, but it's still a lot to account for in the builder between needing to sack something to Trick and then having to defuse it like a bomb. Hex + status spam is also a pretty tough playstyle to face now that we're down a major status absorber. Overall I think removing this Mon would be a deserved blow to offense even though its affect on hazards is overstated. Requires an entire team slot to check in a lot of cases, sometimes multiple. Would like to see it explored via suspect.
5/5 - yeah no, get this guy out of here, complained about it enough on discord and here, possibly the dumbest Mon that's been a part of OU in a while, please quickban
3/5 - kind of middle of the road right now, wasn't an issue in the Gliscor era but it's lost a major defensive and offensive check, still a Pokémon that generally requires a dedicated answer, and Lum + Tera mean that dedicated answer cannot be reliable. Not the demon it's described as but will also very likely become more of an issue as the tier's power level decreases from bans. Losing Sneasler would be a big buff just like losing Gliscor was.
2/5 - stored power take heart makes it not a 1 but still pretty splashable reasonable and reliable counterplay. This Pokémon not requiring very specific counterplay means that it will likely become more balanced as more bans happen as counterplay will be easier to slot in. However Tera means that strain in the builder may always be an issue, and not being able to wear it down with status kinda sucks
5/5 - so how do I switch into Ivy + Grass + Knock Off? Absurd wallbreaker, requires a Tera to beat for stall and oftentimes that doesn't even work out, only reliable answer I can think of is Mandibuzz and it doesn't love losing the item. If its type ability and raw power make it borderline, getting knock off makes it unacceptable. Just hits too hard for the tier and is too much to account for both in the builder and on the field.

i also wrote in Rillaboom for Wood Hammer doing absurd damage to Pokémon that should check it, having knock off, and enabling at least 3 Pokémon (hatterene, Heatran, sneasler) that are all miserable to fight against

also Finchinator i accidentally answered "yes" to at least one of the questions at the end, please disregard this, I meant to put no, please account for this when you sort the data as I don't believe I can edit my response

 

[Elec-ant1234]

- 4
Annoying? Yeah definitely, but it can't touch curse resttalk dozo (specific but eh whatever).

Now i'm no OU expert or gameplay master, but if the one thing you bring up that counters sneasler is one specific dondozo set, then maybe there's a bigger issue here

Might feel more broken when new toy syndrome wears off

I can't tell if you mean new toy syndrome with other mons or kingambit, but given how it's been around 10 months or so since the DLC I can't imagine there being any new toy syndrome around

- 4
Kills stall/balance and bo. Manaphy get's cooked by ho
- 4
Crazy vs non-rilla. Basically playing 5-6 vs rilla

what i'm picking up here is that if Sneasler gets banned, then more issues will arise that will still keep down balance and stall, and that even after the probably inevitable sneasler ban the metagame won't be that better, but who knows, there's probably some aspect i missed

 

[Copland]

4/5 - would eventually like to see some tiering action on this for reasons we all know (breaks hazard meta, enables webs, makes balance and stall much more difficult to execute, etc.). i do think there's more ridiculous things in the meta post-gliscor tho

5/5 - now that rillaboom is not deadweight this mon's full potential has been unleashed. crazy power, speed, and coverage. can play hax roulette with dire claw to win matchups it shouldn't. it's a shame it gets unburden because poison touch pivot is a cool set.

5/5 - it's not like running gambit means you insta-win, but gambit introduces its own minigame into the battle that's absolutely not fun to play against. its variable tera types, coverage, and items combined with sucker punch 50/50s make this mon deeply uncompetitive and banworthy imo

4/5 - match-up fishy and largely enabled by offensive supports like alotales & ribombee (more on them below). tail glow + 3 attacks and double dance + stored power share one non-stall answer & that's encore ogerpon-w. i even saw sub/tail glow/scald/energy ball put in work in scl. kind of impossible to prepare for and has to be beaten by positioning, phasing, or sacrificing a mon to do enough damage for another mon to get a layup kill. however it's not something i think should be prioritized before dlc2

2/5 - yanno i really don't see the argument for this being banworthy atm. it's slow for an offensive mon and can only boost its speed with trailblaze (which eats a valuable moveslot). it's locked to one tera type, its stabs are resisted by a singular type (dragon), it's vulnerable to hazards and status. i really like the offensive utility it provides: decent bulk, water immunity, encore, spikes, healing, pivoting, knock off. a mon with a lot of depth that's rewarding to use. i never lose to this and think i couldn't have prevented it (besides ivy cudgel crits, why is that a thing)

other things not listed: after doing a bunch of building and laddering the past couple days i've started to think that light clay & sticky web/ribombee should get some discussion. these two team structures enable the kind of unstoppable set-up sweepers that gen 9 is known for. you're really stretched to account for them both--pult's choice between infiltrator and clear body is a great example of this. i'm not completely sold on suspecting them, but i think more conversation needs to be had about how these team structures create volatile offensive threats that would otherwise be more manageable

 

[Ctann]

It would be good if there’s enough support for a sneasler quickban.

it really got way too good, seemingly overnight with the Rillaboom grassy glide buff.

 

[quacc]

2/5 - yanno i really don't see the argument for this being banworthy atm. it's slow for an offensive mon and can only boost its speed with trailblaze (which eats a valuable moveslot). it's locked to one tera type, its stabs are resisted by a singular type (dragon), it's vulnerable to hazards and status. i really like the offensive utility it provides: decent bulk, water immunity, encore, spikes, healing, pivoting, knock off. a mon with a lot of depth that's rewarding to use. i never lose to this and think i couldn't have prevented it (besides ivy cudgel crits, why is that a thing)

"It's STABS are resisted by a singular type (dragon)"

Also the tier:

Okay fine, grass resists both STABS too, let's see those (oh wait)

So what we have here is effectively 2 things that actually beat Ogerpon-Wellspring in the current metagame; Dragonite and Rillaboom, and Dragonite hates knock off. Yes, there are lower tier options, but even those hate getting knocked off and can get blasted by coverage, as well as potentially hating pivot sets.

It's also not that slow, 110 speed for something that is unwallable is actually incredibly fast, especially since it isn't the frailest thing in the world either with its spdef boost and solid typing.

 

[Morkal]

Getting back on track...we have a brand new tiering survey!!! Fill it out now as it's our last chance to improve the DLC1 metagame

On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?

8

Definitely more fun now that Gliscor has gotten the proverbial Uberyeet - it doesn't feel like team comps are (as) suffocated as they were.

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?

7

Teambuilding still feels pretty pressured imo. I'm not sure whether it's Gholdengo or hazards as a whole, but we'll get into that later.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Gholdengo?

4

After being on the fence about Gholdengo for a while, I'm finally upping from a 3 to a 4. I feel that, while none of Gholdengo's sets themselves are overwhelming, it's the sheer variety and unpredictability of sets put way too much strain on team building in addition to enabling hazards in a really toxic way.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Sneasler?

3

Still on the fence about Sneasler - I think Sneasler's good, REALLY good, and Dire Claw matchups are aggressively annoying, but I'm not sure that it's broken.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Kingambit?

1

No - this mon is healthy imo. It's powerful but has plenty of common, easily slottable counterplay.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Manaphy?

3

Been doing the exact same tera things as earlier, still undecided about it - it's strong but not unbeatable.

On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring?

2

I don't feel this Pokemon's as broken as originally thought, if Sneasler goes it might become more of an issue however.

 

[1LDK]

Fun: 3, this tier is SHIT, where is the heat man
comp: 4, this tier is SHIT, man I love hstacking vs ho for the 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 time fuck yeah lets fucking gooooo

5, already explained
3, Man I like Philadelphia cheese
1, Nothing has changed, it's not broken, and still holds the tier together
3, Okay so Awyp told me Laughing Cow Cheese is better than Philadelphia Cheese, what do you guys think
4, got better with gliscor ban, still dangerous, but it has become more manageable due to meta adaptations (return of zapdos, moltres, grassy boom fucking with it, etc.) still, it's dangerous

anything else you wanna touch? No
Do you know how to play? No

 

[Copland]

"It's STABS are resisted by a singular type (dragon)"

Also the tier:
View attachment 571693

Okay fine, grass resists both STABS too, let's see those (oh wait)
View attachment 571694

So what we have here is effectively 2 things that actually beat Ogerpon-Wellspring in the current metagame; Dragonite and Rillaboom, and Dragonite hates knock off. Yes, there are lower tier options, but even those hate getting knocked off and can get blasted by coverage, as well as potentially hating pivot sets.

It's also not that slow, 110 speed for something that is unwallable is actually incredibly fast, especially since it isn't the frailest thing in the world either with its spdef boost and solid typing.

don't wanna get in a long convo and eat space for people sharing their survey responses, but to clarify my take on wogerpon: the dragon comment was mostly a reference to defensive teras. tera dragon's popped up as a viable option on defensive mons to cover fire, grass, water, and electric moves all in one slot, which is really valuable. wogerpon has few hardcore counters that don't require a tera, but it's got a lot of one-off checks that can cripple it, revenge it, or prevent it from making progress: clef (twave), cinderace, corv, pult, hatt (nuzzle), booster spe moth, valiant, gambit, alotales, rillaboom (if u don't want whip to 2shot, run some hp), glowking (twave, sludge), zama, zapdos. it's powerful for sure, but it's not on the level of sneasler, ghold, and gambit