Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Epicgamergod69]

THE STEADY RISE OF STALL...

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Some of you love it, some of you hate it, but if there is one thing we all believed is that stall is dead in gen9nd.... or is it?



Ever since generation 9 came, several game changes caused stall to take a drastic pitfall to the abyss. From the Heal move's PP nerf from 16 to 8, to the faster and stronger powercreep, to anti status mons like Gholdengo and Garganacl, to Terastalization making these already powerful monsters into behemoths. For a long while, stall was considered nothing more than a noobtrap, a low ladder terror, a joke. If fact, many players believed that stall was the absolute worse archetype in the metagame, right below other archetypes also considered not very good like Sand and Trick Room. However, very recently, stall has began to see a steady rise in usage. So, how did we got here? Usually whenever a new meta starts, people mostly looks for most broken and unstoppable forces in the meta, like Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon Ursaluna were previously before they were banned, but as the storm calms down, people then start looking for answers to said treads. This is where stall comes in, as it turns out, all stall needed to do is adapt. A popular stall core nowadays is the cloddozo core, which involves Clodsire and Dondozo, as having both Unaware mons that can sponge both sides of the attacking spentrum can allow stall teams to grab momentum and make their plays. Another aspect of stall's adaptment was the change of Blissey's moveset during the time Gholdengo was in the tier. Typically Blissey mainly just ran 1 attacking move, Seismic Toss, which does a set amount of damage, and then the other moves where softboiled, status + utility. However, the problem is that it couldn't hit Gholdengo, even if it can sponge its hits well, it doesn't matter if it couldn't do anything in return. But then people started experimenting with Calm Mind Blissey (myself included) allowing it to efforthlessly wall Gholdengo, and potentially even kill it. This version of Blissey was also able to withstand Bloodmoon Ursaluna with much greater ease, while it was allowed. But recently Gholdengo was banned, and few weeks later, Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon were also banned, which opened up the posibilities for stall to thrive even more. Now Blissey or Chansey can just go back to their standard sets and Clodsire no longer needs to run Amnesia for example. A pokemon that also deserves a mention for volunteering at stall rising from the abyss is Alomomola, which after the last dlc, it gained access to Flip Turn, which may not sound like much at first, but the ability of having a slow pivot wishpasser is invaluable for many teams, not just stall. This allows stall the ability to pivot around the opponent, and keep itself healing without the need to use healing moves, granting it insane longevity. Mons like Dondozo and Ting-Lu greatly appreciate Alomomola's wishpassing, allowing them to keep up with their gameplan. This also makes Alomomola great with a Regerator core, alongside mons like Toxapex or Galar Slowking. All of these factors combined and more, have gained the interesting of players to actually return to use stall once again. However it isn't without roadblocks of course, Gholdengo is gone sure, but there are still several behemoths to worry about, mons like Gliscor and Garganacl do very well against stall, and breakers like mixed Iron Valiant and Mega Gyarados can also cause issues. Other tactics like Taunt, Encore and tricking Choice items can ruin them as well. And with these new bans, the meta is currently also shifting. But if they're is one thing to be sure, is that stall is no longer dead.

Stall has risen from the ashes brothers thank the Lord that we have been given this gift. In all seriousness though stall was omega held back by the plethora of blatantly broken mons restricting what sets it had to run, this is not to say stall is the best of the best playstyles as it still struggles with a decent amount of mons, however it is no longer a "joke" and it is actually good at last.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I think, Just think... i'll do some tr stuff. Stall pokémon sure are low. But How well can they take ursaluna And the incredible wallbreaker mega ampharos? Sd ursaluna sees only Dondozo to answer it While this fish gets like, nO chance against ampharos. Clod is included in the long list of pokémon that particularly hate ursaluna, And surely the bear will rise again, stronger than ever in a meta where Stall is rising. Sure, skarm can harn it, But fire Punch And Sd are great tools for the bear. Take a Sd/facade/hrush/fire Punch set. welcome in hell. I worry about the fact that ursaluna is v strong. Not to speak about the guys i've been seeing completely destroy others with some bulletproof(no fblast And aura sphere) bulk up kind of dirt. The scariest surely is that Sd facade, But hell The Min has The large movepool of a gen2 mon here. I can search through The dex to find ursa counter, so I hope a steel Type with levitate And figjting immunity And fire resist And unaware And smthing to kill it. Sure it'll mostly be strong in TR, so RK is possible, But surely will gET a kill or tWO. when smthing can oneshot Most UBER mons you should keep it in track. It breaks my heart to say it, But I think ursaluna Is as broken as before. "Why Is It NDUU Then?" Well OU got what's called a "hatterene" And can very very efficiently put on tr with nO real counterplay.

 

[about15gals]

Stall has risen from the ashes brothers thank the Lord that we have been given this gift. In all seriousness though stall was omega held back by the plethora of blatantly broken mons restricting what sets it had to run, this is not to say stall is the best of the best playstyles as it still struggles with a decent amount of mons, however it is no longer a "joke" and it is actually good at last.

I also think that stall like alomomola is a great boon for stall teams, as it allows for the use of pokemon with good bulk that lack recovery options like mtar.
And again, to keep this from being a oneliner, I'm gonna talk about sneasler for a bit
I really hope sneasler goes, it's such a stupid pokemon for ho teams that it's basically the sole reason dondozo is even used on stall at all. It's a nightmare for offense to deal with because of its annoyingly consistent method of being just barely bulky enough to survive a neutral hit and fire back with a +2 cc or acrobatics, before even accounting for dire claw hax. I honestly think dire claw is the least problematic part about sneasler, because while it's annoying, it's not the most threatening part about its kit, since most ho sets are using gunk shot for power regardless. The main issue I have with sneasler is it's just too fast and hits too hard, base 130 attack is already quite good as far as ou goes, but since it's running an adamant nature it hits harder, but hitting a whopping 678 speed after unburden procs is just too much, 120 is already a good speed tier but when it gets that +2 from unburden it's always the fastest thing on the field, outspeeding most scarfers with ease. It's potent stab combo also hits a majority of the tier incredibly hard barring niche counters like aegislash, now that ghold's gone. I just think it's too much for the tier at this current moment and I hope that it gets banned in its upcoming suspect test

 

[red fintans]

really hoping to see a survey sometime soon so can score a 4.5 or something
also is really such a fun mon to play with, it enables so many random mons that are bulky but have little recovery and allows me to mess around with stuff like dragalge in the builder

 

[Chilli Dewd]

This is kind of a wild opinion but hear me out

View attachment 571316
(Idk why it's so big but I'm too lazy to fix it)

This is def not something for right now, when the metagame is healthier and all the controversial Pokemon have been dealt with (sneasler, Valiant, lele) so like maybe in a couple of months, if the metagame has gotten better could we have a mini unban wave of sorts where we see if this and something like Arceus-Bug should be allowed?

why unbanning/suspect testing Giratina-O could be a good idea:
- Dragon-Ghost is a typing we have seen before on Dragapult, which is a pretty frail offensive Pokemon. With Giratina's bulk it could use it to great effect, with some important notable resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, and Bug and a Fighting immunity, alongside a Fighting immunity and a Ground immunity as well thanks to Levitate.
- This typing alongside its 150/100/100 bulk allows it to check a lot of OU relevant Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard Y, Great Tusk, Dragonite, Gliscor, Mega Swampert, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Sneasler, Zamazenta, Volcarona, and Urshifu-R.
- Alongside such an outstanding defensive profile, it has a wide movepool including moves such as Defog (!!!), Will-O-Wisp, Roar, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, and Calm Mind.
- If it were allowed it would be a very flexible and versatile Pokemon capable of running many sets such as Offensive Defog, Bulky Calm Mind, 3 attacks Calm Mind, RestTalk, and Physically offensive.
- It lacks reliable recovery or even passive recovery thanks to having to run Griseous Orb and will likely have to go with RestTalk if it wants to stick around for longer, which is difficult to fit on its movepool and so it will likely not even run Rest most of the time.
- Its offensive stats are good but unlike most Uber Pokemon are not insane. 120 attack and 120 Special Attack is pretty good but not fantastic, however it has good and strong STAB moves to throw around like Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball/Poltergeist.
- In conclusion: all of these factors would make Giratina-O a clear cut S tier Pokemon, with its combination of versatility, offensive prowess, and incredible defensive utility. It has a great matchup into a ton of metagame threats and can use those matchups to make progress, whether it be by setting up, spreading burn, getting rid of hazards, or dealing damage. It is not immovable, as it lacks any sort of reliable or passive recovery and since it checks a lot of Pokemon and acts as a good pivot into a lot it could get worn down over time. Giratina-O if it were to be unbanned, would be a very splashable Pokemon and certainly one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in the metagame

Why unbanning it might not be the best idea
- I could definitely see this as kind of like a centralizing S tier Pokemon. You could fit it on like every team and it would work, and that could be a problem because the meta could potentially revolve around it to an unhealthy degree. It's kind of hard to explain but I guess you could liken it to SV Gliscor or Zygarde-50% in SM OU. They were too bulky and too effective for their respective metagames, it didn't matter that their offensive profile was rather lacking or that they had a 4x weakness. With Gliscor in SV it could come in and stick around for the whole game whilst setting up spikes and threatening switches with eq+Toxic, with zygarde it didn't have the same longevity but hits would just bounce off of it.

Why unbanning arceus bug would be an interesting idea:
- Like giratina o, it has very well rounded stats.
- Has recovery unlike Giratina however it has an awful defensive typing, giving it a proclivity to all hazards, especially rocks, and common weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Flying with some admittedly useful resistances to Ground, Fighting, and Grass.
- The most common set variant would likely be a special attacker, always carrying two of either Calm Mind, Recover, Judgement and then either Earth Power for Heatran and Toxapex, Flamethrower for Corviknight and Scizor, Ice Beam for Dragonite/Gliscor/Lando-T, or Taunt for easier set up.
- Would find use on offensive teams, under screens with HO or as a win condition/sweeper on bulky offense.
- I can't really think of why it would be broken other than with Tera potentially, but even then Tera won't solve all of its issues. It has four moveslot syndrome and would likely get worn down quickly and forced to burn recover pp. It certainly does check Great Tusk and something like Rillaboom too ig.
- Overall I think arceus bug would not break ou at all and be a healthy addition to the metagame. It has great qualities in its stats and movepool but some glaring flaws and I think it would be alright.

Tldr in like a couple of months if the metagame is healthier we should unban Giratina O and Arceus Bug to see if they could have a legitimate and balanced role in the tier. We could gain new Pokemon to play with and at worst we can just quickban them like a week or a couple of days later if they really are unhealthy, kind of like how a bunch of pokemon are freed from Ubers at the beginning of a generation.

I am not really advocating for a giratina or arceus-b unban, this is just food for thought for the future because this shit be lowkey interesting to think about sometimes. I hope I was able to coherently explain the positives and negatives of what this could do and provide legitimate arguments because ik alot of post like this aren't taken seriously for good reason. Like I said this is not somethingiit for right now but in the coming months when the metagame is stable enough to pull off these kinds of experiments without big enough consequences. Thanks for reading

Sorry to say this, but it aint April Fools yet buddy. Might as well ask for Darkrai to drop right? Also, Isnt Giratina O actually doing well in Ubers? But what we REALLY NEED (And I really wanna Advocate for this) is NDUUbers. Think about it? We have banned so many mons this generation and we have also so many mons in Ubers like Darkrai, Mega Kanghaskan and others completely stuck in limbo. The number is so big we can actually make a tier out of it. And yeah i know there are things to consider like staff and what have you, but i truly believe for this to be a possibility, and one that people would really like. (Plus if u need a staff member, you can always make me one...)

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

I have no idea why people in this thread are saying that stall was dead before the recent wave of bans when R8 has been spamming teams that dwarf the combined weight of all posters in this thread while putting on the pounds himself from all the ELO those teams fed him for almost the entirety of 2023.

Stall has been good for a long time, Gholdengo/M-Sableye stacks plagued the minds of many whenever they visited the builder, Garganacl superman teams had a period where they were incredibly annoying to face (and probably still are ) while my countrymen (shout out to chansey and lulu, Bilibili w and ThinkCalmly) have been experimenting with some Gliscor/Corv/Dondozo/Blissey/ground/filler structures that absolutely wrecked some of my Gholdengo suspect runs. The recent bans have made many more structures viable, but stall has always had a place in the upper echelons of the metagame.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

don't unban giratina-O cause like bro is bulkier physicallly than Dondozo and is equally bulky specially. IIrc giratina has roost, And has good offenses, And as u said it has a great typing

 

[R8]

This is kind of a wild opinion but hear me out

View attachment 571316
(Idk why it's so big but I'm too lazy to fix it)

This is def not something for right now, when the metagame is healthier and all the controversial Pokemon have been dealt with (sneasler, Valiant, lele) so like maybe in a couple of months, if the metagame has gotten better could we have a mini unban wave of sorts where we see if this and something like Arceus-Bug should be allowed?

why unbanning/suspect testing Giratina-O could be a good idea:
- Dragon-Ghost is a typing we have seen before on Dragapult, which is a pretty frail offensive Pokemon. With Giratina's bulk it could use it to great effect, with some important notable resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, and Bug and a Fighting immunity, alongside a Fighting immunity and a Ground immunity as well thanks to Levitate.
- This typing alongside its 150/100/100 bulk allows it to check a lot of OU relevant Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard Y, Great Tusk, Dragonite, Gliscor, Mega Swampert, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Sneasler, Zamazenta, Volcarona, and Urshifu-R.
- Alongside such an outstanding defensive profile, it has a wide movepool including moves such as Defog (!!!), Will-O-Wisp, Roar, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, and Calm Mind.
- If it were allowed it would be a very flexible and versatile Pokemon capable of running many sets such as Offensive Defog, Bulky Calm Mind, 3 attacks Calm Mind, RestTalk, and Physically offensive.
- It lacks reliable recovery or even passive recovery thanks to having to run Griseous Orb and will likely have to go with RestTalk if it wants to stick around for longer, which is difficult to fit on its movepool and so it will likely not even run Rest most of the time.
- Its offensive stats are good but unlike most Uber Pokemon are not insane. 120 attack and 120 Special Attack is pretty good but not fantastic, however it has good and strong STAB moves to throw around like Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball/Poltergeist.
- In conclusion: all of these factors would make Giratina-O a clear cut S tier Pokemon, with its combination of versatility, offensive prowess, and incredible defensive utility. It has a great matchup into a ton of metagame threats and can use those matchups to make progress, whether it be by setting up, spreading burn, getting rid of hazards, or dealing damage. It is not immovable, as it lacks any sort of reliable or passive recovery and since it checks a lot of Pokemon and acts as a good pivot into a lot it could get worn down over time. Giratina-O if it were to be unbanned, would be a very splashable Pokemon and certainly one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in the metagame

Why unbanning it might not be the best idea
- I could definitely see this as kind of like a centralizing S tier Pokemon. You could fit it on like every team and it would work, and that could be a problem because the meta could potentially revolve around it to an unhealthy degree. It's kind of hard to explain but I guess you could liken it to SV Gliscor or Zygarde-50% in SM OU. They were too bulky and too effective for their respective metagames, it didn't matter that their offensive profile was rather lacking or that they had a 4x weakness. With Gliscor in SV it could come in and stick around for the whole game whilst setting up spikes and threatening switches with eq+Toxic, with zygarde it didn't have the same longevity but hits would just bounce off of it.

Why unbanning arceus bug would be an interesting idea:
- Like giratina o, it has very well rounded stats.
- Has recovery unlike Giratina however it has an awful defensive typing, giving it a proclivity to all hazards, especially rocks, and common weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Flying with some admittedly useful resistances to Ground, Fighting, and Grass.
- The most common set variant would likely be a special attacker, always carrying two of either Calm Mind, Recover, Judgement and then either Earth Power for Heatran and Toxapex, Flamethrower for Corviknight and Scizor, Ice Beam for Dragonite/Gliscor/Lando-T, or Taunt for easier set up.
- Would find use on offensive teams, under screens with HO or as a win condition/sweeper on bulky offense.
- I can't really think of why it would be broken other than with Tera potentially, but even then Tera won't solve all of its issues. It has four moveslot syndrome and would likely get worn down quickly and forced to burn recover pp. It certainly does check Great Tusk and something like Rillaboom too ig.
- Overall I think arceus bug would not break ou at all and be a healthy addition to the metagame. It has great qualities in its stats and movepool but some glaring flaws and I think it would be alright.

Tldr in like a couple of months if the metagame is healthier we should unban Giratina O and Arceus Bug to see if they could have a legitimate and balanced role in the tier. We could gain new Pokemon to play with and at worst we can just quickban them like a week or a couple of days later if they really are unhealthy, kind of like how a bunch of pokemon are freed from Ubers at the beginning of a generation.

I am not really advocating for a giratina or arceus-b unban, this is just food for thought for the future because this shit be lowkey interesting to think about sometimes. I hope I was able to coherently explain the positives and negatives of what this could do and provide legitimate arguments because ik alot of post like this aren't taken seriously for good reason. Like I said this is not something for right now but in the coming months when the metagame is stable enough to pull off these kinds of experiments without big enough consequences. Thanks for reading

In my opinion, the most important thing that should be looked at when talking about a Pokemon is the counterplay available to it, and how reliable its is, and I kinda feel like this is what lacks to this post. I don't think you rly can make a good guess on whether or not an uber will be fine or not just by listing its potential positives, but rather by looking at how the tier can answer it.


Aside from Tera Fairy Garg, I can't think of any kind of good defensive answers to Gira-O: stab wisp+hex or poltergeist boosted by the griseous core on their own are already very strong (for ex 252+ SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage), and you can really run whatever in the last slots to make sure nothing is safe against you. CM turns you into a trade machine as it become for example able to avoid the KO from specs valiant after only one boost and no bulk investment (252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 294-348 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - of course you could invest in bulk to make this even better), EQ hits Heatran and M-TTar, and draco meteor, dragon claw and even dragon tail (Gira-O is already a good spikes abuser, especially since it is itself immune to spikes) as your dragon stab of choice to make sure being a ghost resist will not be enough. On top of this, it is extremely bulky for how strong it hits, and not a lot can threaten to OHKO it at all - and we didn't even talk about Tera yet.

I don't think the lack of recovery is a valid argument either, considering 1. how well it pairs defensively with Alomomola, which already is starting to prove to be a warping force in the tier (EDIT: act it's not that good lol) and 2. its immunity to Spikes.


Honestly this thing is much, much more broken than Gira-O and it's not even close. Yes, Arceus-Bug is worse than Gira-O in ubers, but ubers viability doesn't always translate to OU viability, especially when Arceus-B has to compete with the billion other other formes in ubers.

It is not possible to revenge kill this pokemon reliably: it has near toxapex bulk, which is obscene for a pokemon faster than Iron Valiant. There is no offensive checks for this pokemon, especially considering its ability to tera, and it pretty much walls scarfers (252 Atk Tera Flying Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Bug: 204-240 (53.5 - 62.9%), 252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Bug in Psychic Terrain: 163-193 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - and that's uninvested arceus lol). Making sure you are wallking every variant is near impossible too, unless you run like hardcore stall: barely anything checks tera ground CM + Earth Power + Ice Beam/Power Gem + Recover, and that's just one of the many sets you could run: this poke also gets swords dance and dragon dance, can very feasibly drop recover to slot taunt, and tera just allows you functionally run whatever arceus form you want, minus Judgement, and get a STAB on the move of your choice on top of getting rid of your bug typing.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

I've been playing only stall since day 1 of Gen 9 of NDOU. Up until recently, it felt like it had taken a serious hit from Gen 8. Now it feels like a more viable teamstyle again and it's a lot more fun.

This is kind of a wild opinion but hear me out

View attachment 571316
(Idk why it's so big but I'm too lazy to fix it)

This is def not something for right now, when the metagame is healthier and all the controversial Pokemon have been dealt with (sneasler, Valiant, lele) so like maybe in a couple of months, if the metagame has gotten better could we have a mini unban wave of sorts where we see if this and something like Arceus-Bug should be allowed?

why unbanning/suspect testing Giratina-O could be a good idea:
- Dragon-Ghost is a typing we have seen before on Dragapult, which is a pretty frail offensive Pokemon. With Giratina's bulk it could use it to great effect, with some important notable resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, and Bug and a Fighting immunity, alongside a Fighting immunity and a Ground immunity as well thanks to Levitate.
- This typing alongside its 150/100/100 bulk allows it to check a lot of OU relevant Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard Y, Great Tusk, Dragonite, Gliscor, Mega Swampert, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Sneasler, Zamazenta, Volcarona, and Urshifu-R.
- Alongside such an outstanding defensive profile, it has a wide movepool including moves such as Defog (!!!), Will-O-Wisp, Roar, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, and Calm Mind.
- If it were allowed it would be a very flexible and versatile Pokemon capable of running many sets such as Offensive Defog, Bulky Calm Mind, 3 attacks Calm Mind, RestTalk, and Physically offensive.
- It lacks reliable recovery or even passive recovery thanks to having to run Griseous Orb and will likely have to go with RestTalk if it wants to stick around for longer, which is difficult to fit on its movepool and so it will likely not even run Rest most of the time.
- Its offensive stats are good but unlike most Uber Pokemon are not insane. 120 attack and 120 Special Attack is pretty good but not fantastic, however it has good and strong STAB moves to throw around like Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball/Poltergeist.
- In conclusion: all of these factors would make Giratina-O a clear cut S tier Pokemon, with its combination of versatility, offensive prowess, and incredible defensive utility. It has a great matchup into a ton of metagame threats and can use those matchups to make progress, whether it be by setting up, spreading burn, getting rid of hazards, or dealing damage. It is not immovable, as it lacks any sort of reliable or passive recovery and since it checks a lot of Pokemon and acts as a good pivot into a lot it could get worn down over time. Giratina-O if it were to be unbanned, would be a very splashable Pokemon and certainly one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in the metagame

Why unbanning it might not be the best idea
- I could definitely see this as kind of like a centralizing S tier Pokemon. You could fit it on like every team and it would work, and that could be a problem because the meta could potentially revolve around it to an unhealthy degree. It's kind of hard to explain but I guess you could liken it to SV Gliscor or Zygarde-50% in SM OU. They were too bulky and too effective for their respective metagames, it didn't matter that their offensive profile was rather lacking or that they had a 4x weakness. With Gliscor in SV it could come in and stick around for the whole game whilst setting up spikes and threatening switches with eq+Toxic, with zygarde it didn't have the same longevity but hits would just bounce off of it.

Why unbanning arceus bug would be an interesting idea:
- Like giratina o, it has very well rounded stats.
- Has recovery unlike Giratina however it has an awful defensive typing, giving it a proclivity to all hazards, especially rocks, and common weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Flying with some admittedly useful resistances to Ground, Fighting, and Grass.
- The most common set variant would likely be a special attacker, always carrying two of either Calm Mind, Recover, Judgement and then either Earth Power for Heatran and Toxapex, Flamethrower for Corviknight and Scizor, Ice Beam for Dragonite/Gliscor/Lando-T, or Taunt for easier set up.
- Would find use on offensive teams, under screens with HO or as a win condition/sweeper on bulky offense.
- I can't really think of why it would be broken other than with Tera potentially, but even then Tera won't solve all of its issues. It has four moveslot syndrome and would likely get worn down quickly and forced to burn recover pp. It certainly does check Great Tusk and something like Rillaboom too ig.
- Overall I think arceus bug would not break ou at all and be a healthy addition to the metagame. It has great qualities in its stats and movepool but some glaring flaws and I think it would be alright.

Tldr in like a couple of months if the metagame is healthier we should unban Giratina O and Arceus Bug to see if they could have a legitimate and balanced role in the tier. We could gain new Pokemon to play with and at worst we can just quickban them like a week or a couple of days later if they really are unhealthy, kind of like how a bunch of pokemon are freed from Ubers at the beginning of a generation.

I am not really advocating for a giratina or arceus-b unban, this is just food for thought for the future because this shit be lowkey interesting to think about sometimes. I hope I was able to coherently explain the positives and negatives of what this could do and provide legitimate arguments because ik alot of post like this aren't taken seriously for good reason. Like I said this is not something for right now but in the coming months when the metagame is stable enough to pull off these kinds of experiments without big enough consequences. Thanks for reading

Well, unbanning Giratina-O is certainly one way to solve the lack of splashable ghosts that people complain about. Is it a good way? Probably not, but I wouldn't complain about getting access to a bulky wisp user for my stall teams.

Arceus-Bug would be too strong and we do NOT need that.

I don't think the lack of recovery is a valid argument either, considering 1. how well it pairs defensively with Alomomola, which already is starting to prove to be a warping force in the tier and 2. its immunity to Spikes.

I actually really like what Alomomola is doing in the meta right now. Someone earlier was talking about how it enabled bulky mons with no recovery (their example was Dragalgae), and I think that's a really good thing because it makes so many more Pokémon viable. I think Alomomola is changing the meta for the better.

Also, NDUUbers would be a wonderful idea, although I would not have enough time to even consider staffing it. Nor do I have the experience necessary to give that tier the leadership it deserves.

 

[vesp]

Also, NDUUbers would be a wonderful idea, although I would not have enough time to even consider staffing it. Nor do I have the experience necessary to give that tier the leadership it deserves.

Runo already made it. I haven't played it though, but I'm sure it's great.

This is kind of a wild opinion but hear me out

View attachment 571316
(Idk why it's so big but I'm too lazy to fix it)

This is def not something for right now, when the metagame is healthier and all the controversial Pokemon have been dealt with (sneasler, Valiant, lele) so like maybe in a couple of months, if the metagame has gotten better could we have a mini unban wave of sorts where we see if this and something like Arceus-Bug should be allowed?

why unbanning/suspect testing Giratina-O could be a good idea:
- Dragon-Ghost is a typing we have seen before on Dragapult, which is a pretty frail offensive Pokemon. With Giratina's bulk it could use it to great effect, with some important notable resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, and Bug and a Fighting immunity, alongside a Fighting immunity and a Ground immunity as well thanks to Levitate.
- This typing alongside its 150/100/100 bulk allows it to check a lot of OU relevant Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard Y, Great Tusk, Dragonite, Gliscor, Mega Swampert, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Sneasler, Zamazenta, Volcarona, and Urshifu-R.
- Alongside such an outstanding defensive profile, it has a wide movepool including moves such as Defog (!!!), Will-O-Wisp, Roar, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, and Calm Mind.
- If it were allowed it would be a very flexible and versatile Pokemon capable of running many sets such as Offensive Defog, Bulky Calm Mind, 3 attacks Calm Mind, RestTalk, and Physically offensive.
- It lacks reliable recovery or even passive recovery thanks to having to run Griseous Orb and will likely have to go with RestTalk if it wants to stick around for longer, which is difficult to fit on its movepool and so it will likely not even run Rest most of the time.
- Its offensive stats are good but unlike most Uber Pokemon are not insane. 120 attack and 120 Special Attack is pretty good but not fantastic, however it has good and strong STAB moves to throw around like Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball/Poltergeist.
- In conclusion: all of these factors would make Giratina-O a clear cut S tier Pokemon, with its combination of versatility, offensive prowess, and incredible defensive utility. It has a great matchup into a ton of metagame threats and can use those matchups to make progress, whether it be by setting up, spreading burn, getting rid of hazards, or dealing damage. It is not immovable, as it lacks any sort of reliable or passive recovery and since it checks a lot of Pokemon and acts as a good pivot into a lot it could get worn down over time. Giratina-O if it were to be unbanned, would be a very splashable Pokemon and certainly one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in the metagame

Why unbanning it might not be the best idea
- I could definitely see this as kind of like a centralizing S tier Pokemon. You could fit it on like every team and it would work, and that could be a problem because the meta could potentially revolve around it to an unhealthy degree. It's kind of hard to explain but I guess you could liken it to SV Gliscor or Zygarde-50% in SM OU. They were too bulky and too effective for their respective metagames, it didn't matter that their offensive profile was rather lacking or that they had a 4x weakness. With Gliscor in SV it could come in and stick around for the whole game whilst setting up spikes and threatening switches with eq+Toxic, with zygarde it didn't have the same longevity but hits would just bounce off of it.

Why unbanning arceus bug would be an interesting idea:
- Like giratina o, it has very well rounded stats.
- Has recovery unlike Giratina however it has an awful defensive typing, giving it a proclivity to all hazards, especially rocks, and common weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Flying with some admittedly useful resistances to Ground, Fighting, and Grass.
- The most common set variant would likely be a special attacker, always carrying two of either Calm Mind, Recover, Judgement and then either Earth Power for Heatran and Toxapex, Flamethrower for Corviknight and Scizor, Ice Beam for Dragonite/Gliscor/Lando-T, or Taunt for easier set up.
- Would find use on offensive teams, under screens with HO or as a win condition/sweeper on bulky offense.
- I can't really think of why it would be broken other than with Tera potentially, but even then Tera won't solve all of its issues. It has four moveslot syndrome and would likely get worn down quickly and forced to burn recover pp. It certainly does check Great Tusk and something like Rillaboom too ig.
- Overall I think arceus bug would not break ou at all and be a healthy addition to the metagame. It has great qualities in its stats and movepool but some glaring flaws and I think it would be alright.

Tldr in like a couple of months if the metagame is healthier we should unban Giratina O and Arceus Bug to see if they could have a legitimate and balanced role in the tier. We could gain new Pokemon to play with and at worst we can just quickban them like a week or a couple of days later if they really are unhealthy, kind of like how a bunch of pokemon are freed from Ubers at the beginning of a generation.

I am not really advocating for a giratina or arceus-b unban, this is just food for thought for the future because this shit be lowkey interesting to think about sometimes. I hope I was able to coherently explain the positives and negatives of what this could do and provide legitimate arguments because ik alot of post like this aren't taken seriously for good reason. Like I said this is not something for right now but in the coming months when the metagame is stable enough to pull off these kinds of experiments without big enough consequences. Thanks for reading

This mon would be absurd, it eats every hit in the tier and hits like a truck. It's good in NDubers anyways, it's not OUbl by any means. No reason for it to drop and it's 100% way too powerful.

 

[Zrp200]

This is kind of a wild opinion but hear me out

View attachment 571316
(Idk why it's so big but I'm too lazy to fix it)

This is def not something for right now, when the metagame is healthier and all the controversial Pokemon have been dealt with (sneasler, Valiant, lele) so like maybe in a couple of months, if the metagame has gotten better could we have a mini unban wave of sorts where we see if this and something like Arceus-Bug should be allowed?

why unbanning/suspect testing Giratina-O could be a good idea:
- Dragon-Ghost is a typing we have seen before on Dragapult, which is a pretty frail offensive Pokemon. With Giratina's bulk it could use it to great effect, with some important notable resistances to Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Poison, and Bug and a Fighting immunity, alongside a Fighting immunity and a Ground immunity as well thanks to Levitate.
- This typing alongside its 150/100/100 bulk allows it to check a lot of OU relevant Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard Y, Great Tusk, Dragonite, Gliscor, Mega Swampert, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Sneasler, Zamazenta, Volcarona, and Urshifu-R.
- Alongside such an outstanding defensive profile, it has a wide movepool including moves such as Defog (!!!), Will-O-Wisp, Roar, Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Shadow Sneak, and Calm Mind.
- If it were allowed it would be a very flexible and versatile Pokemon capable of running many sets such as Offensive Defog, Bulky Calm Mind, 3 attacks Calm Mind, RestTalk, and Physically offensive.
- It lacks reliable recovery or even passive recovery thanks to having to run Griseous Orb and will likely have to go with RestTalk if it wants to stick around for longer, which is difficult to fit on its movepool and so it will likely not even run Rest most of the time.
- Its offensive stats are good but unlike most Uber Pokemon are not insane. 120 attack and 120 Special Attack is pretty good but not fantastic, however it has good and strong STAB moves to throw around like Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball/Poltergeist.
- In conclusion: all of these factors would make Giratina-O a clear cut S tier Pokemon, with its combination of versatility, offensive prowess, and incredible defensive utility. It has a great matchup into a ton of metagame threats and can use those matchups to make progress, whether it be by setting up, spreading burn, getting rid of hazards, or dealing damage. It is not immovable, as it lacks any sort of reliable or passive recovery and since it checks a lot of Pokemon and acts as a good pivot into a lot it could get worn down over time. Giratina-O if it were to be unbanned, would be a very splashable Pokemon and certainly one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in the metagame

Why unbanning it might not be the best idea
- I could definitely see this as kind of like a centralizing S tier Pokemon. You could fit it on like every team and it would work, and that could be a problem because the meta could potentially revolve around it to an unhealthy degree. It's kind of hard to explain but I guess you could liken it to SV Gliscor or Zygarde-50% in SM OU. They were too bulky and too effective for their respective metagames, it didn't matter that their offensive profile was rather lacking or that they had a 4x weakness. With Gliscor in SV it could come in and stick around for the whole game whilst setting up spikes and threatening switches with eq+Toxic, with zygarde it didn't have the same longevity but hits would just bounce off of it.

Why unbanning arceus bug would be an interesting idea:
- Like giratina o, it has very well rounded stats.
- Has recovery unlike Giratina however it has an awful defensive typing, giving it a proclivity to all hazards, especially rocks, and common weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Flying with some admittedly useful resistances to Ground, Fighting, and Grass.
- The most common set variant would likely be a special attacker, always carrying two of either Calm Mind, Recover, Judgement and then either Earth Power for Heatran and Toxapex, Flamethrower for Corviknight and Scizor, Ice Beam for Dragonite/Gliscor/Lando-T, or Taunt for easier set up.
- Would find use on offensive teams, under screens with HO or as a win condition/sweeper on bulky offense.
- I can't really think of why it would be broken other than with Tera potentially, but even then Tera won't solve all of its issues. It has four moveslot syndrome and would likely get worn down quickly and forced to burn recover pp. It certainly does check Great Tusk and something like Rillaboom too ig.
- Overall I think arceus bug would not break ou at all and be a healthy addition to the metagame. It has great qualities in its stats and movepool but some glaring flaws and I think it would be alright.

Tldr in like a couple of months if the metagame is healthier we should unban Giratina O and Arceus Bug to see if they could have a legitimate and balanced role in the tier. We could gain new Pokemon to play with and at worst we can just quickban them like a week or a couple of days later if they really are unhealthy, kind of like how a bunch of pokemon are freed from Ubers at the beginning of a generation.

I am not really advocating for a giratina or arceus-b unban, this is just food for thought for the future because this shit be lowkey interesting to think about sometimes. I hope I was able to coherently explain the positives and negatives of what this could do and provide legitimate arguments because ik alot of post like this aren't taken seriously for good reason. Like I said this is not something for right now but in the coming months when the metagame is stable enough to pull off these kinds of experiments without big enough consequences. Thanks for reading

Runo already made it. I haven't played it though, but I'm sure it's great.


This mon would be absurd, it eats every hit in the tier and hits like a truck. It's good in NDubers anyways, it's not OUbl by any means. No reason for it to drop and it's 100% way too powerful.

If you really want to drop a ghost type, drop Necrozma-Dawn-Wings. I assume it would be an absolute terror given it's base necrozma on crack, but at least it's slow, has two 4x weaknesses that it can't feasibly do anything about (including one to knock off), and it doesn't get Tera Blast, fairy coverage, or special fighting moves.

It also doesn't get Physical Ghost STAB, so swords dance/dragon dance sets wouldn't even have ghost coverage (and if they do it won't be boosted).

That said, it's probably too much for the tier, since it has all the tools to succeed in multiple roles; It has CM + moonlight to be a bulky booster, it has stealth rock to set rocks while spinblocking, it has Photon Geyser as a reliable Psychic type STAB move that facilitates both physical and special boosting sets (especially considering 113 attack is perfectly usable), it has moongeist beam backed by STAB and 157 Special Attack (plus potential Z move) to hit like a truck even with minimal investment (or with!), and it has things like rock polish, cosmic power, stored power, and trick room to be a general hindrance.


But all that considered I would consider that before Giratina-O.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

It really is a shame there isn't a sort of "National Dex OU Sandbox" where potential changes like this could be tested before implementation.

When there aren't upcoming changes, it could be used for stuff like this. How much will Giratina-O mess up the metagame? It's unbanned this week in the sandbox, so go try it out!

I think it could really move discussion forward in a lot of ways as we'd be able to really see things like just how bad of an idea a Darkrai unban really is. And it would also just be really fun.

Probably a pipe dream, but it's a thought.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

One.

I've been playing only stall since day 1 of Gen 9 of NDOU. Up until recently, it felt like it had taken a serious hit from Gen 8. Now it feels like

Fun? Stall? Bro that's like saying "I like bread It's spicy".

If you really want to drop a ghost type, drop Necrozma-Dawn-Wings. I assume it would be an absolute terror given it's base necrozma on crack, but at least it's slow, has two 4x weaknesses that it can't feasibly do anything about (including one to knock off), and it doesn't get Tera Blast, fairy coverage, or special fighting moves.

What if We put a 157 spa very bulky mon that has a 100bp stab And has multiscale But Not technically, that can use z moves, that would legitimate the unban of gambit?

 

[vesp]

And has multiscale

Dawn Wings does not have Shadow Shield and is far worse of a Pokemon than Giratina-Origin. It's crazy to even insinuate that a Pokemon like would ever be allowed in OU, when Darkrai would already be too much for the format to handle. is incrediby strong, with Poltergeist able to 2hko SpDef for example.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Dawn Wings does not have Shadow Shield and is far worse of a Pokemon than Giratina-Origin. It's crazy to even insinuate that a Pokemon like would ever be allowed in OU, when Darkrai would already be too much for the format to handle. It's incrediby strong, with Poltergeist able to 2hko SpDef for example.

Ok mybad. Well sure the tier Cant handle darkrai when ival Is free. makes total sense to me! A pokemon that relies on hypnosis to be good Is toptier nowadays? And you are talking shit about power creep? Or you mean It's a no ability mon that gets nuked bY tapu Koko?.

 

[vesp]

Ok mybad. Well sure the tier Cant handle darkrai when ival Is free. makes total sense to me! A pokemon that relies on hypnosis to be good Is toptier nowadays? And you are talking shit about power creep? Or you mean It's a no ability mon that gets nuked bY tapu Koko?.

I'm not going to talk about this as it is blacklisted. If you would like info on why its broken go to around page 25 there's a discussion there.

 

[Oculars]

I'm not going to talk about this as it is blacklisted. If you would like info on why its broken go to around page 25 there's a discussion there.

darkrai talk reminds me of all the blaziken talk last gen natdex when everyone would swear up and down that its the most busted thing ever on paper and cause Z moves then we unbanned it from ubers and it went UU in like two months, thing was so bad we even suspected mega blaziken at that point after people claimed regular was clearly too powerful for the tier.

 

[Astral Regulator]

unbanning Giratina before Gta 6

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

Fun? Stall? Bro that's like saying "I like bread It's spicy"

I like methodical play and long-term planning is all. I actually have a really good time playing stall, since I have an objective I'm trying to complete over a long period of time, and it's satisfying to watch it come to fruition exactly as I predicted.

I agree that unbanning all these ubers is certainly a bad idea, especially while Sneasler is still here. But I stand by my other idea - National Dex Sandbox would do wonders for the tier.

 

[red fintans]

sandbox sounds so fun, instead of surveys we could just dump ideas into sandbox and see what happens (what if sneasler was already banned? is the tier better? what if we dropped darkrai for no reason? is the tier better?)

to avoid a one-liner: what are yalls thoughts on using gengar as a ghost instead? rather than dropping some OP ghost type (guys lets drop spectrier it cant beat blissey or clod anyway!!)

edit: expanding from just gengar to after slash's comment

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

sandbox sounds so fun, instead of surveys we could just dump ideas into sandbox and see what happens (what if sneasler was already banned? is the tier better? what if we dropped darkrai for no reason? is the tier better?)

to avoid a one-liner: what are yalls thoughts on using gengar as a ghost instead? rather than dropping some OP ghost type (guys lets drop spectrier it cant beat blissey or clod anyway!!)

Gengar isn't as bulky like the other ghosts unfortunately and doesn't have levitate anymore.
Also I feel like either ceru, sinistcha or blacephalon would fit better as a ghost replacement.(#bringbacklevitategengar)

 

[Aesiro13]

sandbox sounds so fun, instead of surveys we could just dump ideas into sandbox and see what happens (what if sneasler was already banned? is the tier better? what if we dropped darkrai for no reason? is the tier better?)

to avoid a one-liner: what are yalls thoughts on using gengar as a ghost instead? rather than dropping some OP ghost type (guys lets drop spectrier it cant beat blissey or clod anyway!!)

edit: expanding from just gengar to after slash's comment

I find most Ghost type Pokemon to provide a more offensive quality, with high attacking stats and strong moves. The bulkiest Ghost currently in OU is Sinistcha-Masterpiece, and even then it's a Calm Mind sweeper with regen and burn. If you are insistent on using Ghost for defense, it's best to use Tera Ghost on Garg or something.

 

[NightEmerald]

Im not sure if this is an opinion others have already expressed, but should there be action on stored power/z celebrate? I personally find the combination of the two to be really uncompetitive, due to just how easy it is to get off in exchange for the sheer power it gives any pokemon that uses it, made more obvious with the banning of kingambit and gholdengo, the two best steels in the tier

 

[Aesiro13]

Im not sure if this is an opinion others have already expressed, but should there be action on stored power/z celebrate? I personally find the combination of the two to be really uncompetitive, due to just how easy it is to get off in exchange for the sheer power it gives any pokemon that uses it, made more obvious with the banning of kingambit and gholdengo, the two best steels in the tier

Firstly, Stored Power is a Psychic type move, meaning any Dark type (either naturally or Tera) can completely bypass the threat Stored Power poses. Second, Unaware Pokemon like Clefable, Dondozo, and Skeledirge can ignore the stat omniboost and either Toxic stall them out or setup and sweep them. Third, Steel doesn't counter omniboost Stored Power, even not Kingambit and Gholdengo. So no, action is not required.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

Firstly, Stored Power is a Psychic type move, meaning any Dark type (either naturally or Tera) can completely bypass the threat Stored Power poses. Second, Unaware Pokemon like Clefable, Dondozo, and Skeledirge can ignore the stat omniboost and either Toxic stall them out or setup and sweep them. Third, Steel doesn't counter omniboost Stored Power, even not Kingambit and Gholdengo. So no, action is not required.

Stored Power's power boost still applies to Unaware mons, so they aren't necessarily safe.

With that being said I think there are many good answers to omniboost stored power. Phazing moves, toxic, anything that can force a switch, (tera) dark type mons, Blissey and Chansey, etc. The only omnibooster that I think is worth watching is Victini, because it can hit all of the Stored Power counters with a boosted V-Create. Granted, once you V-Create, your stored power is useless. So I don't think it's overpowered at all, but I can see it forcing weird trades.