Bloodmoon is offensively counterable yes but it has virtually no defensive counter thus severely limiting defensive playstyles
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter R8
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Honestly one of the funniest things I've read in awhile . One of the only real ways feraligatr could be good is an outright stat buff or some insane 150 bp no drawback move or something
Its not good.
Since ghold is gone, and bax, BM, Sneasler is a target for sus, I think we also need some defensive pokemon gone. I think garganacl should be watched if we QB those offensive threat. Tera Ghost+ Status immunity+ Salt cure is very difficult to break if metagame keeps banning offensive threats but ignoring the defensive mon. I think healthy meta requires a balance between too much defensive metagame and too much offensive metagame
Tldr: If we QB BM, bax, Sneasler, some defensive wall needs to be watched for "Healthy meta" that everyone desires
Tldr: If we QB BM, bax, Sneasler, some defensive wall needs to be watched for "Healthy meta" that everyone desires
Garganacl is not a problem at all compare to these threats. It has inherent flaws that makes it easy to exploit. Biggest one being that it has to tera for it to actually wall stuff.
There's also plenty of wall breakers (lele being one of the bigger ones now with gholdengo gone) and overall it needs a lot of support. So no, it shouldnt be watched on at all.
tl:dr: Garganacl won't be a problem to the meta and never will be.
Garg LIKES tera a lot and is one of the best users of it, but it doesn't HAVE to tera. It naturally has a good match up into TornT, Heatran, Zapdos, various Koko (protect garg styles on it beautifully), not to mention the wide range of passive pokemon it exploits. Protect garg in fact is a fantastic scout that can manipulate many choice locked mons well even without tera.
Garg also doesn't need a lot of support beyond hazard control and teammates to handle specific matchups. It dislikes taunt and encore which it wants help with for example.
There's a reason Garg balance was doing well pre dlc and still is strong post Ghold meta. While I don't think it needs action now, saying it won't ever be a problem is short sighted. Especially as most of the overpowered breakers leave.
While Garg tends to play very slowly, I would not say it's a "defensive" mon. Salt Cure is one of the single best moves to force progress in a game maybe to ever exist. It's spammable, forces switches through hazards, and deals double damage to two of the best defensive types in the game. While I'm aware the mon has excellent longevity with tera, banning Garg would make stall way, way better. We have a lot of great mons that can safely come in on and force out Garg, both offensively and defensively, and while it is a very good mon, I do not feel it is overpowered.
Between status immunity and salt cure, Garg is purpose-built to destroy my stall teams and it still doesn't feel oppressive to me.
How can you play stalls and lose to garg? Glisc and any regen cores and stall garg’s pp out easily
Nof how tiering works. Tiering isn't a law of equivalent exchange, ahere you ban 2 stallmons for every 3 wallbreakers you ban. You take stock of the metagame, ban what's broken. Let it settle and reaccess. Rinse repeat. If a defensive pokemon becomes shown to be broken in that cycle then so be it, but banning strong wallbreakers does not inherently mean that we must ban strong walls. That makes the assumption that no strong wallbreakers that have a healthier impact on the meta will not rise to take their place (they always do). Just wanted to leave my few cents because this is a common rhetoric that is behind the infamius "Smogon Loves Stall" argument.
That's my point - it's not overbearing in the slightest and can be handed by decent cores and smart play. It has the tools to force progress but it's not at all broken. The meta, both offensively and defensively, is definitely capable of handling Garg.
Yea it doesn't need to tera the same way as I don't have to wear my helmet when biking.
it's going to be needing it almost most of the time and while yes without tera it can still wall stuff, in practice you're still going to have to tera on garg anyways just to live thanks to the numerous weaknesses with rock type(man they really should buff it).
Now being reliant on tera isn't always a bad thing in fact if it was, garg probably wouldn't be seeing any play. But when using it on a team, it's something you're going to have to consider.
Also yea mb I was a bit shortsighted. I still do think though that it won't be a huge problem compared to bax, sneas and whatnot. Especially with the dlc coming around the corner aswell.
TL:DR: it still needs tera in practice to live through stuff anyways and its dependency on it is something you still have to consider while building with it(again not necessarily a bad thing)
While yes compared to Gods themselves it doesn't seem that broken but after they are gone there is a fairly considerable chance it becomes broken
GASPS IN HORROR.
I KNEW MY NEMESIS WHO HATED GHOLDENGO HAD AN ULTERIOR AGENDA.
HE'S A STALL LOVER(THE WORST CRIME EVER COMMITTED).
Anyway, after the dengo ban(which was sad as I didn't notice and if I voted we coulda tied), I think the mons that we need to look at are just Bax and Bloodmoon, both of which I explain here. As for Tera Psychic Lele, it happens to do this:
GIF
when I play this:
Anyway, toodles.
No real good reason. From what I've heard though,it might be because pokeaim made a video about mbanette and using it in ndou and ig that's what made it launch to ou
(Also its not good at all please treat yourself nicely and use something like mlop plz)
With general discussion for the On The Radar thread more or less concluded, I just feel like leaving some more general thoughts on pokemon in the tier and some weird oddities.
MZor feels better than it has in some time. Maybe it's just my imagination. But Gholdengo being gone makes it feel more effective, as while offensive sets could break past it, non set up Mscizor felt like it got stuck by Gholdengo too easily. I'm a fan of 3a with roost since it feels quite flexible. Knock off is nice, pursuit is useful to scatter chip on fleeing targets.
Ferro was always excellent even in a Ghold meta but it felt somewhat frustrating with how easy a switch in bulky Ghold could get into it. Now it has an easier time spreading hazards and residual damage, and generally being annoying as ever. SlowkingG similarly feels more effective now that a hard walk has left the tier. It also feels rife with potential exploration of sets.
Defog feels a lot more accessible as an anti hazard tool now and it makes building feel a lot more open as a result. We still have plenty of excellent setters of hazards, so it's hardly like they'll never go up or stay up for multiple turns, but the pressure is definitely lower.
Am I missing something with this one? It's hung around the tier since day one as I recall, and yet it has felt extremely underwhelming and poor as a hazard lead. It's easy to deny it more than one hazard and generally seems like a wasted slot. Yet it has remained high in usage, more than actually consistent and good pokemon. Can anyone explain this or is it a simple case of it being noobtrapped.
Speaking of which, it's also still hanging around despite being a mediocre pokemon once again (last gen wasn't any better for it) yet it remains higher in usage than actually good mons like ZardY, Volcarona and Glowking (who all amusingly shit on it). I don't get ladders obsession with this mon at all.
MZor feels better than it has in some time. Maybe it's just my imagination. But Gholdengo being gone makes it feel more effective, as while offensive sets could break past it, non set up Mscizor felt like it got stuck by Gholdengo too easily. I'm a fan of 3a with roost since it feels quite flexible. Knock off is nice, pursuit is useful to scatter chip on fleeing targets.
Ferro was always excellent even in a Ghold meta but it felt somewhat frustrating with how easy a switch in bulky Ghold could get into it. Now it has an easier time spreading hazards and residual damage, and generally being annoying as ever. SlowkingG similarly feels more effective now that a hard walk has left the tier. It also feels rife with potential exploration of sets.
Defog feels a lot more accessible as an anti hazard tool now and it makes building feel a lot more open as a result. We still have plenty of excellent setters of hazards, so it's hardly like they'll never go up or stay up for multiple turns, but the pressure is definitely lower.
Am I missing something with this one? It's hung around the tier since day one as I recall, and yet it has felt extremely underwhelming and poor as a hazard lead. It's easy to deny it more than one hazard and generally seems like a wasted slot. Yet it has remained high in usage, more than actually consistent and good pokemon. Can anyone explain this or is it a simple case of it being noobtrapped.
Speaking of which, it's also still hanging around despite being a mediocre pokemon once again (last gen wasn't any better for it) yet it remains higher in usage than actually good mons like ZardY, Volcarona and Glowking (who all amusingly shit on it). I don't get ladders obsession with this mon at all.
To be honest, I didnt tought that MScizor had that much of a struggle with Gholdengo (likely because i wasn't using it much) so my opinions for this one are not that valid, but i do believe what u say do.With general discussion for the On The Radar thread more or less concluded, I just feel like leaving some more general thoughts on pokemon in the tier and some weird oddities.
MZor feels better than it has in some time. Maybe it's just my imagination. But Gholdengo being gone makes it feel more effective, as while offensive sets could break past it, non set up Mscizor felt like it got stuck by Gholdengo too easily. I'm a fan of 3a with roost since it feels quite flexible. Knock off is nice, pursuit is useful to scatter chip on fleeing targets.
Ferro was always excellent even in a Ghold meta but it felt somewhat frustrating with how easy a switch in bulky Ghold could get into it. Now it has an easier time spreading hazards and residual damage, and generally being annoying as ever. SlowkingG similarly feels more effective now that a hard walk has left the tier. It also feels rife with potential exploration of sets.
Defog feels a lot more accessible as an anti hazard tool now and it makes building feel a lot more open as a result. We still have plenty of excellent setters of hazards, so it's hardly like they'll never go up or stay up for multiple turns, but the pressure is definitely lower.
Am I missing something with this one? It's hung around the tier since day one as I recall, and yet it has felt extremely underwhelming and poor as a hazard lead. It's easy to deny it more than one hazard and generally seems like a wasted slot. Yet it has remained high in usage, more than actually consistent and good pokemon. Can anyone explain this or is it a simple case of it being noobtrapped.
Speaking of which, it's also still hanging around despite being a mediocre pokemon once again (last gen wasn't any better for it) yet it remains higher in usage than actually good mons like ZardY, Volcarona and Glowking (who all amusingly shit on it). I don't get ladders obsession with this mon at all.
For Defog, i couldn't agree more how much dengo simply denied hazard removal. Theres a reason why Moltres rose up as Defogger, since it naturally had a positive matchup on dengo. I only find it funny how many people think that hazard stacking is dead. Just because they no longer are permanent doesn't mean u can't stack them up again or punish defog attempts. I can also see mons like Serperior and Galarian Zapdos start rising in usage because of said defog punishment.
Glimmora imo is a ladder appeal, having a suicide lead that can lay toxic spikes upon getting hit by a contact move on top of setting hazard does sound very appealing (almost as appealing as Mega Banette, who is also not supergood, ladder is just like that sometimes.) But it's just overall very easy to play around. It needs Sash since it's rather frail, and the T-Spikes aren't garanteed to stay. Even when Gholdengo was around, simply having a Poison type would usually do the job. And now that Dengo is gone, they are a breeze to get rid of, altough Defog Punishers and Ghost could help, theyre not garanteed to always work. Also, I found more mileage with Suicide Lead Lando instead. I did a standard Koko Dual Screens and had Glimmora, but it felt like it wasnt worth it, but then I added Lead Lando, and made a lot of difference. But yeah overall, Glimmora is just a noobtrap. But just imagine Toxic Debris on a bulky wall and how annoying that could be, eh?
Rillaboom, this one is interesting. I wouldn't say he is in the same category as Glimmora, that of a noobtrap, altough it does have quite the ladder appeal. Rillaboom does have some interesting niches. Mainly it's good mu vs Rain, altough it has high competition with Ogerpon-Wellspting for said role. It's Terrain can also enables Sneasler, and while perhaps not the best Terrain to abuse with Sneasler, it does have the benefit to fight the other terrains, and Rillaboom does tread both Lele and Koko if it switches in. This is still however, very niche, and very specific.
As an avid Glimmora user, the problem I see is that people see that SPA stat and decide to make it a frail sweeper with Focus Sash that sets hazards on the side, when really they should focus more on the defensive bulk and commit fully to the hazard setting. I, for example, use Mortal Spin/Spikes/Stealth Rock/Spiky Shield paired with Leftovers for passive healing. Of course, I do not care what people do with Glimm, they can use what they want, but if the focus is hazards, then Glimm is more often than not used wrong in my opinion.With general discussion for the On The Radar thread more or less concluded, I just feel like leaving some more general thoughts on pokemon in the
Am I missing something with this one? It's hung around the tier since day one as I recall, and yet it has felt extremely underwhelming and poor as a hazard lead. It's easy to deny it more than one hazard and generally seems like a wasted slot. Yet it has remained high in usage, more than actually consistent and good pokemon. Can anyone explain this or is it a simple case of it being noobtrapped.
The problem with the rain match up is any good rain team is naturally built to handle threats like Rilla so it isn't even effective there really. Ferro, Zapdos, TornadusT, and more. It's just a weird mon that really only preys on bad team building, which granted tends to be much of low mid ladder, but I dunno.
I actually have tried a specially defensive Glimmora with spin, stabs and spiky shield! It's alright, since it's good into Valiant and Zapdos, but it doesn't have much defensive use beyond that. I wonder if there is a niche it could fill
I actually liked Icezilla myself, excited for next Gen when Tera is no more and we need to retest everything, but I'm somewhat worried a lot of the newer mons get quickbanned anyway due to precedent rather than because they're overpowered in the new metagame (Gen 7 Blaziken moment).
For now though, it's exciting seeing the metagame develop without Gholdengod standing above it.
Wonderful news! A big thank you to the council for removing these menaces! Now it's time for us to do our part and vote Sneasler out. This next suspect test is going to be a question. Do we want a metagame based on good teambuilding and skilled play? Or do we want a metagame based on the whims of Javascript's Math.random() function? 
Why Earth Power on a Phys Kyurem? Change that to Iron Head for Fairy types.Copecalibur @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpA / 196 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Scale Shot
- Earth Power
Bax at home
It's to hit heatran since otherwise it would wall though at that point, sub would be better
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