Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Nish the Great]

On the contrary, I think looking into Ninetales-A as an unhealthy presence could be more justified than, say, a light clay suspect. Natdex is unique in that dragapult, the second-most reliable screens setter, isn't available. If other screens setters, let alone veil setters, aren't as much of a problem, I don't think it's unreasonable to point at Ninetales alone for enabling veil offense teams.

If the general sentiment is that if Ninetales was banned, an equally obnoxious setter would take its place, then I can see why people wouldn't want to take action on that. Personally, I don't see any other setter being nearly as effective as Ninetales atm, but I could be wrong about that.

Are people actually forgetting that koko is probably the single best screen setter in the format? It’s got every move a screen setter could want and electric terrain is fantastic utility.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

also, koko does not nake any mon broken (valiant can use booster energy and nuke you All w/o koko altho with koko it's very strong) while ninetakes makes baxcalibur broken. weather boosts defense, aurore veil up, baxcalibur has already 115/92/76 and therefore it is broken. Imo, baxcalibur qb was more urgent than gholdengo suspect, since baxcalibur forgot the notion of "wallable" alolatales ban would let What come in the meta? Abomasnow, vanilluxe, grimmsnarl at best, So a ban would not be bad. grimmsnarl must switch manually against dark types or face the many faites of the tier, vanilluxe would like aurore veil freeze dry taunt explosion which is not that "wow" and abomasnow woild gET nuked by Uh, everything having Even ember. Alolatales is not enjoyable and Well it's Still a way like another to nerf moonlight ursab, but without the historical quality of rain.

 

[hidin]

Yuh moonlight is Never a good recovery. Snow, very common these days, or Rain nerf that recovery af. I dont see a world where ursaluna is Top tier natdex. Hyper voice is better if you re running a bulky set since it's good and spammable, and infiltrates sub that are Too often used to counter it. BM is in no way broken. Plus, anyone may add that it can have many roles with a priority and/or fblast and moonblast but hell bro it is slow and Not tanky on special defense. It has no immunity to toxic, and Don't bring Tera as a toxic immunity every pokemon can Tera poison it's not an argument.

Also dewfew dont tell me that The "usually useful item" eviolite or aguav berry make samutott h look broken


also i think an alolatales ban would be nice, since if HO are broken rn it's mostly because of It. Speed, weather control, hypnosis, encore, freeze-dry, weather-buffed blizzard can make this pokemon a lil bit annoying. It meritates at least a suspect imo

I think the argument you’re making about Ursaluna-BM is just tip-toeing around the bear’s blatant issues, it’s easy as hell to trade throughout a game with it due to its sheer strength and bulk, even with low Special Defense it has CM to make it do better into stuff like Moltres and Zapdos, while also bolstering its overall bulk to surprising levels since 113 HP and 120 Defense isn’t some to laugh at. Moonlight being unreliable in matchups where Ursaluna wouldn’t even be used in much isn’t a good argument because no one is bringing it out against a rain team or out on a GlowBax team to recover. And yes, everything can Tera Poison but what does that even mean in its defense? Trying to make it seem like it’s ok by considering other Pokemon that don’t even do what it does? Also would like to say that you beat all the Pokemon that would Substitute on you unless its SubBU Corv which is obviously a counter and pretty much the only reliable check to it in the tier, and Corv itself isn’t that great in the first place. Focus Blast and Moonblast are unviable options that should genuinely not be used ever on it, so I don’t think that they should be brought up ever with this mon. Being slow for Pokemon like it isnt even a problem because we have plenty of Pokemon banned that have a poor Speed stat, but insane trading capabilities just like Ursaluna-BM. Feel like this take is very odd and seems like a bunch of alphabet soup trying to explain the “flaws” of the bear

Also no one uses Alolatales outside of Baxcalibur teams which aren’t really the forefront of the meta right now, Koko and even Grimmsnarl are more reliable options that do the same screening it does albeit not having Snow, Encore or Hypnosis. Definitely not a banworthy Pokemon at all; the abusers like Bax are truly the problem

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

With the discussion of Ninetales-A, I wish to simply ask the question: Is screens offense the problem, or is Baxcalibur the problem? I've heard zero about Ninetales-A until Baxcalibur started getting more usage, so it makes sense to ask this. If Baxcalibur were gone, would veil offense with Ninetales-A still be a problem, or would it be more manageable. I think Baxcalibur is the issue and Ninetales-A is fine.

BM is in no way broken. Plus, anyone may add that it can have many roles with a priority and/or fblast and moonblast but hell bro it is slow and Not tanky on special defense. It has no immunity to toxic, and Don't bring Tera as a toxic immunity every pokemon can Tera poison it's not an argument.

One of the reasons Kingambit had to go was that it could Tera to beat its counters - something every Pokémon can do. So this is absolutely an argument. Saying "every Pokémon can do it so it's not a problem" isn't right because different Pokémon interact with the same mechanic in different ways. If Ledian Teras Poison to beat Toxic, you laugh. If Ursaluna-BM Teras Poison to beat Toxic, you (may) lose the game.

I won't mince words about my opinion on Blood Moon - I don't think it's healthy. I think it hits too hard and is too fat.

I think the argument you’re making about Ursaluna-BM is just tip-toeing around the bear’s blatant issues, it’s easy as hell to trade throughout a game with it due to its sheer strength and bulk, even with low Special Defense it has CM to make it do better into stuff like Moltres and Zapdos, while also bolstering its overall bulk to surprising levels since 113 HP and 120 Defense isn’t some to laugh at.

I think hidin said it better than I could have here, and I absolutely agree with this. Being slow means a lot less when you have better physical bulk than Toxapex and hit harder than (special) Hoopa-U.

As for Gholdengo, I can't wait to see this thing go personally. I'm aware of the potential issues with Sneasler and Iron Valiant, but we can't be relying on "broken checks broken". To have to ban mons, knowing that others may have to be banned as well is the reality of National Dex. This tier has a lot going on and I wouldn't have it any other way, but the chaos brought by the full dex, Z-moves, and Tera means that tiering action naturally has to play a bigger role, since keeping a healthy meta involves controlling that chaos. We must keep this in mind when discussing the tiering action in meta.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

On the contrary, I think looking into Ninetales-A as an unhealthy presence could be more justified than, say, a light clay suspect. Natdex is unique in that dragapult, the second-most reliable screens setter, isn't available. If other screens setters, let alone veil setters, aren't as much of a problem, I don't think it's unreasonable to point at Ninetales alone for enabling veil offense teams.

If the general sentiment is that if Ninetales was banned, an equally obnoxious setter would take its place, then I can see why people wouldn't want to take action on that. Personally, I don't see any other setter being nearly as effective as Ninetales atm, but I could be wrong about that.

Oh really? Take away Baxcalibur and what do you have besides Arctozolt to abuse snow with? Alolan Ninetales by itself isnt broken, in fact i can confidently say that Alolan Ninetales is not OU in terms of power levels, its only niche due to Aurora Veil. Other teamstyles can do something similar to it and even counter it. Hyper Offense teams that use Tapu Koko or Grimmsnarl use Dual Screens and can Taunt Alolan Ninetales due to higher speed (and Prankster in case of Grimmsnarl). And while weather teams may not have veil, nor the time to spend on Dual Screens, they tend to have solid abusers (minus maybe Sand, pls buff Sand Gamefreak) and can interrupt Alolan Ninetale's veil attempts. So yeah, if there is a mon that isn't banworthy in this banhappy metagame its the snow fox.

 

[omarsgarciav]

With Gholdengo likely soon to be banned, I wanna adress Sneasler's place in the tier.

The only set worth using is unburden + electric seed, lele is a decent enabler too but usually worse at purely enabling than koko, since it can't set screens and +1 sdpef is worse than +1 def bc most prio is physical and you aren't hitting this thing with anything other than priority. Currently there are only a handful of devensive answers to this set, all of which are shaky at best. Gholdengo, being the best mon in the tier, is the most splashable, and while on paper it's a pretty good sneas answer, in practice it can lose scarily often, as +2 tera fly acro 2hkos most sets while not even max spatk modest mir is guaranteed to ko back from full, alternatively with ghold being the best mon in the tier a lure set with tera dark/ghost night slash/shadow claw is also a viable option to guarantee you beat it 1v1. Ofc you can use twave if you're scum and want to use the only bad ghold set in the game. Another popular answer is Landorus, which has the benefit of intimidate meaning it isn't necesarilly tasked with beating sneas 1v1, but pivoting in lando once also carries the risk of sneas getting to +3 and then the game is super over. This is all aleviated if lando comes in on acro and dies, after which smth like pex can come in and have an easier time dealing w sneas. If lando decides to stay in it has to win a 50/50 of toxic on tera fly or eq on stay regular and then sack a few mons and try to pivot around w helmet + toxic, at which point one of sneas' teammates can finish cleaning. Then you have Toxapex, which has exactly one chance to scald burn, assuming it's comming in as sneas clicks sd, and if it doesn't burn immideately it becomes a 50/50 of stay in on sd or sack for regen as it attacks, if pex tries to spam haze it can just acro a few times, force a recover, get an sd and go from there. Zapdos and Moltres are also sort of answers, unless sneas decides to run gunk shot in which case they just fall over at +2, even if it's just dire claw there's still at best a roughly 50% chance to get a status on it, excluding their attacks and assuming physdef sprerads at full. There's also dondozo/skeledirge/physdef unaclod but those are exclusive to stall, and skarm/id corvi can win the 1v1 if sneas hasn't boosted already. Tera reliant checks include ghost garg, which can lose to night slash or if it clicks +2 acro on tera ghost, tera electric idpress zama, which can lose if it decides to click cc first instead of acro or sleeps/gets lucky w paras from dire claw, and tera poison sinistchgod has to get the 20% burn immediately to win 1v1.

Offensively there is even fewer answers. Firstly there is double prio Lopunny, which usually needs to sack at least one teammate, depending on how low sneas is, ofc all of that becomes way harder if lele is the terrain setter of choice and sneas is not forced to tera fly. Weavile, urshifu and mscizorr all technically acomplish the same jop as lop but for obvious reasons are worse. Other than that there's your own sneasler and pray that you win the tie, or just run tera ghost and win, barring dire claw ofc. Tera steel ival can try to bait dclaw/acro but that's just another 50/50, and it also requires sneas to be chipped by at least 40% or forced to cc, granted neither of these are exactly hard to do but still worth noting. There's also barraskewda and jolly floatzel which do a pretty good job of revenge killing this thing, but rain in general is just kind of bad rn and they also let baxcalibur in which is something you absolutely do not want to do ever.

Please qb this thing, even if ghold stays but especially if it goes, we absolutely do not need any more time after ghold ban to know how horrible this mon is for the tier. Dedicating 2 weeks to this is just pointless when you have bax, bloona and val running around, all of which are far more deserving of a sus. This thing is just stupid and has been ever since ppl discovered how ridiculous of an unburden sweeper it is and it promptly became required on every single ho.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I'm assuming gholdngo ban. Let me see what we'll get After gholdengo is gone

Iron valiant

I had to start with it. Iron valiant, the top tier pokemon that in itself is the ultimate speed control. 116speed that can be boosted to the level of scarf by a single use item that lets the pokemon chose freely its moves. The major problem is its versatility: sd, close combat, moonblast, calm mind, encore, twave, spirit break, focus blast, tbolt, knock off Tera blast, bro's got The movepool. Now its stats are also a menace 74/130/90/120/60/116 which means it can run decently All The moves said above, and its usage and power Will only rise After gholdengo ban, and not much thing Will be able to answer, i can count one Other ghost steel pokemon, but aegislash dont have The recovery of gholdengo, more of it later. Then you see quark drive also activates on electric terrain which means valiant can also run another item and start to clean/sweep a team with Life orb, specs, or Even run a physical swords dance set with Z fairy and nuke the whole meta if coupled to knock off, in which case you can see Weezing galar as The only counter. After gholdengo ban, I fear the council won't stop having work.

Sneasler

it's Well known, Terrain is abusive and abused by sneasler. Terrain seeds make sneasler ways Too powerful, under the protection of dual screens by koko, with again aegislash as only real counter to resist both dire claw close combat and acrobatics. While pex and Other poison types(, ,etc) may look like the thing is sane, dire claw existe and haxx is Never your trusted ally it's cool to tank countless dire claw from sneasler, less cool when you fall asleep and sneasler sd and acro you to death, again, i Don't see any pokemon doing the Job bettter than aegislash, i'd Even argue that aegislash is better than dengo for sneasler but more of it later. You can't rely o. zapdos and moltres, you never know when gunk shot is arriving.

Tapu Lele

Who would've thought that we'd see so much pokemon broken because of smthing else than tera? Well not me. Lele hits hard, terrain setter and abuser, can use psy terrain very Well since prios is the only thibg you can hit it with, access to the best fairy stab and a set of moves not Too vast but not insufficient at All. Its psychic invalidates All fighting types in the tier and Its moonblast nukes dark types that dare do anything but forfeit. It only has 70 hp, so dont overestimate the 115 spdef, but dont underestimate either! Resisting through a lot of neutral moves, lele is nothing but pain to face if no valable counter is offered. Now, to counter It, We have: aegislash the pseudo sub to ghold, armarouge and victini tho they suffers if lele has somewhy shadow ball ( never assume It doesnt have It). Alas, lele has only 4 moveslots, and you can't fit psychic moonblast shadow ball focus blast a random hidden power AND tbolt in, since tbolt would be the necesarry toy to deal With steel-flying types. The very best thing to do is to make sure it's choiced and adapt to It, but it's Still a pain! Altho it's less broken than The Other above, it's Still a mon to consider After gholdengo ban.

Podium is closed for after-ghold broken mons, but give a participation medail to everyone. Little guy over here, come on!

Tapu Koko

Here It is. Koko. Koko always suffered from the lack of physical fairy stab so people quickly searched for Other options. yes it's a shame bulu and koko Don't have play rough but fini and lele do, but let me explain you why koko has earned a place in this post. Koko. Is. The best. Screen setter. In. The. Meta. And not only a Screen setter, any ho that has It Is valid! U-turn, stabed terrain boosted volt switch, electric stab, coverage, The thing Is armed. It can run many sets. Its versatility Is huge. Bro can easely run a physical attacker set With wild charge, U-turn, some brave burd shenaningan and filler move, can run With a higher quality a special set With tbolt voltturn dazzling gleam and grass knot, hidden power Ice if you prefer, It also runs dual Screen taunt aNd voltturn, can use defog altho It invalidates its own electric terrain, and you are never safe since It can run Light clay, boots, specs, scarf somewhy, electrium z, fairium z, and you Just can't control this thing. It Is only walled by, like 1 pokemon, excluding amoongus cause Even if amoongus can win The 1v1 against koko, electric terrain invalidates spore and koko, again, voltturns! So yeah only one viable pokemon would be able to wall it and win against most sets, being venusaur mega, and Even this Is menaced if The koko decides to brave bird, altho very rare, and getting rarer in High ladd. Its electric terrain, Screen and rapid voltturn itself
Is a big argument in sneasler being broken After gholdengo ban, has itself single handedly sent hawlucha in USUM OU, and With quark drive mons We can now Go Even further With quark drive mons(,,,, ,), With valiant being strong and All. An action taken on it would give The meta a break before dlc2 and its ban would invalidate valiant's and mainly sneasler's imo. Its presence is overwhelming offensively cause like i can't name a poke that resists All its attacks. I do think a venusaur mega walls most of em, and Still, koko can voltturn on it and simply let in a lb ally that has positive matchup against it.

Now that this is closed, let me talk about aegislash. Surely not as Good as ghold was, but Still can fill some important cases of What made ghold powerful. Not to forget that it has tools that ghold dont have.

aegislash, The review

aegislash, may I remember you, stayed in UBER for two gens, and since we're in natdex, it Still has most of The tools it had in The golden age. While its stats and sig move have been nerfed, it Still has The Good typing and the incedible versatility. Let me show you a comparison of it and ghold:

-typing, yes
-high offensive stats, yes, and better.
-useful stab, yes, tho shadow claw isn't optimal
-recovery, no
-fast setup, yes, tho physical
-valuable speed, no
-bulk, yes, and better
-versatility, yes, and better,
-coverage, yes
-immune to taunt/encore/disable, no
aegislash gets seven out of the ten most valable tools of ghold, and has tools ghold hasnt:
-A prio
-A very strong subtox set
-The possibility of running both physical and special sets
Well There you've got also the three missing parts of giving 10 very strong points of viability. aegislash is Not as Good or gold as ghold, but can conpress some roles of ghold While also having some ghold didn't. Of course, aegislash can't run a choiced set if you have a clear mind, but ghold wouldnt have a coverage move and recovery both at a time With nasty plot and stabs. again, aegislash is Not as Good a dengo but it has the quality of replacing it in some ways in some teams and We have to assume that aegi's got better matchups against some mons like blissey Even With shadow ball, against sneasler thanks to a higher bulk. Not to mention that king's shield is An excellent move ready to punish scizor mega, samurott-h and most physical attackers to ease the tanking of the next move. While ghold must rely on focus blast's accuracy, aegislash has close combat. aegislash walls pokemon almost as much as gholdengo did, and its quality of S rank in its actual tier's viability rankings (a tier that can deal With the beast kartana and even ursaluna, zama, melmetal lasted a month in the tier (except the former uber ursaluna, that stays here). i'm convinced that aegislash will find a place in the tier After gholdengo ban.

 

[Aesiro13]

On the contrary, I think looking into Ninetales-A as an unhealthy presence could be more justified than, say, a light clay suspect. Natdex is unique in that dragapult, the second-most reliable screens setter, isn't available. If other screens setters, let alone veil setters, aren't as much of a problem, I don't think it's unreasonable to point at Ninetales alone for enabling veil offense teams.

If the general sentiment is that if Ninetales was banned, an equally obnoxious setter would take its place, then I can see why people wouldn't want to take action on that. Personally, I don't see any other setter being nearly as effective as Ninetales atm, but I could be wrong about that.

You didn't address my defenses against the Ninetales ban. Hazard stacking is very prevalent in the current meta, and since Ninetales's main job is to set up Veil, it's going to be running Light Clay, meaning it gets 25% of it's health immediately taken by Stealth Rock. And as I've already said, it has to invest in speed to be able to set up Veil before it dies, so it's going to be pretty frail even with Veil set up.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

it's going to be pretty frail even with Veil set up.

Yes. Ofcourse, It's an ice type. Still, you can't take away 100spdef and the defense boost from snow. What can you even mean by "it's weak to hazard" it's a lead. Also, 109 speed is more than sufficient to set screens, and investing in hp will let it survive to most neutral moves. Freeze dry lets it hit water type s that too often wall ice types. 81 spa is bad, bit its moonblast is still a menace if it is super effective. Then, remember we're in singles which means Aurora veil halves the damages, and then I don't think alolatales can be qualified of "frail"

 

[gudwbs]

You didn't address my defenses against the Ninetales ban. Hazard stacking is very prevalent in the current meta, and since Ninetales's main job is to set up Veil, it's going to be running Light Clay, meaning it gets 25% of it's health immediately taken by Stealth Rock. And as I've already said, it has to invest in speed to be able to set up Veil before it dies, so it's going to be pretty frail even with Veil set up.

Hazard stacking won’t be a good strategy post ghold ban. Def boost from hail is just enough for surviving one hit. It is fast enough to set up second screen. I think ninetale doesn’t need a ban, but I don’t think ur point is valid

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

also i think an alolatales ban would be nice, since if HO are broken rn it's mostly because of It. Speed, weather control, hypnosis, encore, freeze-dry, weather-buffed blizzard can make this pokemon a lil bit annoying. It meritates at least a suspect imo

Why is this an argument? Alolan ninetales isn't going to be banned ever. All it does is enable mons like bax alot easier but isn't the sole reason why it's broken. Banning alolan ninetales or light clay wouldn't make bax or BM Luna any less broken. Baxcalibur will still be op regardless of there being screens or not and banning alolan ninetales won't be solving anything.

 

[dewfew]

Hazard stacking won’t be a good strategy post ghold ban

Hazard stacking will always be a good strategy, because hazards are objectively game-warping. Look at gen8, you still have ferro spikestack teams without Gholdengo around. Hsam is even better at getting up spikes, and hazard stacking will always be a good as long as that mf exists (it always will because it’s not banworthy)

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Hazard stacking won’t be a good strategy post ghold ban. Def boost from hail is just enough for surviving one hit. It is fast enough to set up second screen. I think ninetale doesn’t need a ban, but I don’t think ur point is valid

Hazards stacking is still far from unviable. It would simply not be a must have strat like it is now. In fact there are still plentiful ways to make Hazard stacking effective without the need of Gholdengo. I feel like Aegislash or other Ghost type (not sure which Ghost type would fit the bill the most) can be used as a fine spinblocker to replace dengo, or simply using Tera Ghost can do the trick too. And mons like Galar Zapdos, Serperior and Enamorus can punish Defog attempts. Now the one hazard playstyle that likely will take a hit in its viability will be Sticky Webs, as they heavily rely on Webs to be up in order to make the most of web abusers like Mega Medicham and Xurkitree. But even they can adapt these strats i mentioned just now as a solution, should Gholdengo be banned.

 

[Oculars]

Hazards stacking is still far from unviable. It would simply not be a must have strat like it is now. In fact there are still plentiful ways to make Hazard stacking effective without the need of Gholdengo. I feel like Aegislash or other Ghost type (not sure which Ghost type would fit the bill the most) can be used as a fine spinblocker to replace dengo, or simply using Tera Ghost can do the trick too. And mons like Galar Zapdos, Serperior and Enamorus can punish Defog attempts. Now the one hazard playstyle that likely will take a hit in its viability will be Sticky Webs, as they heavily rely on Webs to be up in order to make the most of web abusers like Mega Medicham and Xurkitree. But even they can adapt these strats i mentioned just now as a solution, should Gholdengo be banned.

Webs is definitely gonna have to adapt to ghol ban, building webs was very centralized with ghol around as you basically require ghol on every team, and every good team you fight will also have a ghol answer making it an annoying slot to contend with, it also made fitting other steels annoying given you really only have 5 slots to work with. Post ghol ban webs are going to begin running more serp and bisharp and enamorus for sure, along with stuff like ceruledge, mega bannette and gengar to spinblock.

 

[Aesiro13]

I would like to start a discussion. What mons do you believe are underrated and overrated in the current meta? As in, mons that aren't given enough credit for how good they are or mons that are highly praised despite having fallen off?

 

[Patar136]

Honestly, this could be my rain bias talking but I think Ferrothorn is actually underrated. Because I don't see it too often in matches, or at least, not as often as it should be. People seem to be preferring Glimmora, Clodsire, Toxapex, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Ting Lu or even Garchomp as their hazard setter of choice. But Ferrothorn has some truly amazing qualities that deserve mention.

For one, on rain teams it is definitely the preferred setter. Reducing its fire weakness and simultaneously being a good weapon AGAINST rain teams can help explain why. Spikes, Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Power Whip, Gyro Ball.... tons of options. I even like running Protect on Ferrothorn to scout moves and to help Leech Seed recovery antics, as well as punishing Leeched mons that don't switch out. It also has well, only two real weaknesses, fighting and fire. Both of which can be patched with terrastalization. I prefer ghost to keep my hazards on the field. Or even water to remove the fire weakness, although this makes you weak to electric attacks and opposing grass types which isn't ideal. Dragon can work too except now your dragon resistance disappears, obviously.

Maybe Ferrothorn isn't too popular now because it can't do much to Gholdengo besides Knock Off and is beaten by either Trick, Nasty Plot or even the rare Focus Blast. It also doesn't do good against sun, makes sense, and hail teams can beat with strong ice attacks it can't punish easily. It also suffers from four move syndrome to an extent, struggling to run all the tools it once. Ferrothorn seems best on bulkier teams and rain teams where its qualities are more desirable.

Also Kingdra on rain teams for life. I feel like the one Kingdra defender and will rock this seahorse until I die. Hehe.

 

[xTimeCrystal]

is actually underrated quite badly

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Underrated- gorebyss. 114 spatk and shell smash plus swift swim in Rain, Tera water/waterium z are very good options, and While Other Rain spatk lack the combo speed+attacking power (both 95(kingdra) and 103(greninja) are low), gorebyss has that stunning 359 spatk (252+) and shelll smash to increase speed bY A LOT. And If you feel like it, you can also kill pex (unlike the Other two) With psychic While having Ice beam coverage.
105 defense is actually good to tank some prios like aqua jet urshifu Even at 20% health -1 defense and kill urshifu at +2spatk surf /psychic

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

What is the next big thing? which one is more broken? Val, lele Or sneasler? imo lele, as Even With dengo a Tera psy specs could 2hko, and it has An insane coverage (literally All needed) in focus blast- tbolt-shadow ball

 

[peap]

great show of democracy in ND, and big thank you to our translators who also spread the vote to international and Chinese playerbase.

that being said this is a HUGE impact on the tier and Tapu Lele and Sneasler and Iron Valiant immediately stand out to me as much harder to handle, as the poster above agrees. I had voted no ban due to Gholdengo’s defensive utility facilitating teams against these three. Tornadus returns as a premier defogger while Zapdos gets even better with less of a need for Moltres (which still checks Volcarona, a separate problem). Webs teams and Glimstack HO fade. Garganacl surges on balance and Scizor can avoid Knock Off.

edit: corviknight is actually a good option against the above now, I expect that to skyrocket

also to clarify, poorly worded statement and taking deserved heat for writing it. I didn’t mean no ban only for gholds ability to check other threats. The holistic argument for not broken/no ban was ND SVOU has all of HSam, Volcarona, Iron Moth, Gliscor, Mega Charizard forms, Blood Moon Ursa, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor with Knock Off, Tera Urshifu etc in a higher-power level metagame that offered splashable ways to check and revenge Ghold, which in turn was comparable to USUM Magearna in holding a diverse set of team archetypes together

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

This is wonderful news for the tier. I think we're well on our way to a much healthier meta now, although there is more work to be done. Great job everyone!!!

I think Bax and Blood Moon are massive issues, but I am confident we can handle them quickly and move forward. Not much to discuss about those two, as we've already said most of what needs to be said for them. I will say, however, that I am in favor of a quickban for both, and that I feel stronger about Blood Moon than I do about Bax.

Seen a lot of discussion about Tapu Lele recently on here. Given that I'm a stall player, this thing feels awful to play against, but I'm aware that my persepctive is heavily skewed, so I'm interested in hearing what others think about it.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Dengo is OUTA HERE. After a very close suspect test dengo is banned. Now the next order of business is action on bloodmoon ursaluna for obvious reasons, baxcalibur due to incredible power and bulk on veil ho, and sneasler due to its potence on eseed dual screens

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

great show of democracy in ND, and big thank you to our translators who also spread the vote to international and Chinese playerbase.

that being said this is a HUGE impact on the tier and Tapu Lele and Sneasler and Iron Valiant immediately stand out to me as much harder to handle, as the poster above agrees. I had voted no ban due to Gholdengo’s defensive utility facilitating teams against these three. Tornadus returns as a premier defogger while Zapdos gets even better with less of a need for Moltres (which still checks Volcarona, a separate problem). Webs teams and Glimstack HO fade. Garganacl surges on balance and Scizor can avoid Knock Off.

With all due disrespect to the bolded:

As for the threats you mentioned, that is what tiering policy is for: we ban the broken presence in the tier and ban broken presences that arise from its absence until the tier is stable. Broken Pokemon checking broken threats does not help foster a healthy metagame

 

[Epicgamergod69]

With all due disrespect to the bolded:

As for the threats you mentioned, that is what tiering policy is for: we ban the broken presence in the tier and ban broken presences that arise from its absence until the tier is stable. Broken Pokemon checking broken threats does not help foster a healthy metagame

Some of what he said is true HOWEVER I believe that for the meta to truely stabilize tera is the issue for lack of stability.

 

[LBN]

I had voted no ban due to Gholdengo’s defensive utility facilitating teams against these three.

so you tellin me you voted to preserve a broken checks broken landscape...? I'm psure you are on council you should know better

Skipping past that, frankly both sneasler and lele are overrated and can simply wait. Lele can't do everything it wants between fightinium, scarf beating offensive and specs breaking fat, imo it's very good but its got flaws like pursuit prone vs mega tar if it ever claims w psychic (which you want to), common things like heatran etc still being around, aegislash likely getting a resurgence and more. Extremely overrated mon, while Sneasler usually has not enough things to win in time stopping it like M-Lop, Dnite, Zapdos, Skeledirge, Aegislash (soon), and others. Let's not jump the gun w this thing.

You know who can do it all? Iron Valiant. But first can we nuke baxcalibur please that mon is just annoying.

Anyway, the best thing to come out of this are the Pokémon who get better. Torn-T is a defogger again, Tapu fini can also defog more reliably and with how common Baxcal is this mons value is higher than ever. Slowbro also gets better, Serperior can also maybe see use as an offensive defogger etc. Other mons to get better include H-Lilligant, Mega Latias, Mega Latios, Buzzwole, Corviknight, Garg, Mega Medicham and more. I don't support suspecting anything aside from Baxcalibur at the moment. Gholdengos banishment changes the tier ALOT, more than any other mon we've seen go. Let's not act too hasty, only bloodmoon and Baxcalibur are worth being in discussion for the immediate future