Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

I know there are precedence of bad council decisions in the past, but context is key. I don't think Ursaluna and Ogerpon-Hearthflame are remotely comparable. One was overhyped to moon and quickly discovered to be pretty bad in OU (not even decent), whereas Ogerpon was ininitally underestimated, then found to be absurdly busted (upon discovering the mask boost).

I know Natdex isn't OU, but OU has a large and qualified playerbase with a mostly stable meta, and both Ogerpon/Ursaluna are relatively same in Natdex as compared to OU. Ogerpon is broken in both, Ursaluna is mid/bad in both.

Agreed with everything said there.

I think we really should just get rid of the more obvious one out of the way rather than doing a whole survey first. It's a waste of time and i dont think anyone wants firepon to stay any longer now.

 

[Giyu]

I have a solution. For Ogerpon-Hearthflame to obtain its Embody Aspect ability, it needs to go through terastallization. If we remove its ability to terastallize, it will no longer be broken!

TL;DR
Ban Tera

 

[Oculars]

I support council taking their time with ogerpon, I feel in general the effect it has is that its not easily blanket checked by the currently most spammed defensive cores that people are already using and fat/balance players are going to have to adapt with a specific counter/check or smart hazard management. Running an item to check just one mon and giving up lefties/boots longevity is not unheard of (see covert cloak and why anything runs it). Most offences can easily handle ogerpon and its not too insane bulk along with easily exploitable speed tier and predictable tera type and even with its hazard weaknesses and no way to run boots it makes it only really threatening as a breaker to fat teams (if your offence loses to trailblaze ogerpon its probably just not good). Every offensive archetype has something to easily handle ogerpon. Rain has zapdos which lives all coverage at +3 along with plenty of mons that outspeed and ohko, Sun has torkoal and venu which outspeed even +1 ogerpon, Webs up means ogerpon usually cant even get a hit off and Screens means you can check its +2/+3 neutral attacks with almost any bulky offensive mon, along with twave paras on ogerpon, Hstack teams easily put ogerpon in priority or revenge kill range with just rocks.

Theres 100s of ways to handle ogerpon on offence the mon only poses issues by breaking those trash unaware + garg cores fat and balance teams have been getting away with overrelying on due to other mold breaker mons being bad right now and chilling in RU/UU (mega gyarados and excadrill dont beat cancerous dondozo despite having mold breaker while ogerpon does).

Fat players are just gonna have to either run an item to deal with ogerpon (like us offence players have to for garg) or stop running passive slow crap and cope. Ogerpon's no diferent than other mons that are un-wallable with the right coverage like mixed Hoopa-U, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Heatran and Gengar which also destroys passive crap but are bad into any competent offence.

Worst case scenario give it a suspect to get the communities feedback on it but quickbanning should not be an option.

 

[R8]

Much like the SV OU council, they wanted to make sure of the community opinion before taking action, and I do not think we can blame Jho for wanting to be careful before banning something too hastily. I think the only real problem here is the time it took for the survey to come out, which yeah is a bit annoying but now at least we know that proper action will most likely be conducted very soon

 

[Nashrock]

Running an item to check just one mon and giving up lefties/boots longevity is not unheard of (see covert cloak and why anything runs it).

At least cloak has the niche in preventing effects other than salt cure, for example flinch from fake out/iron head, burn from scald, -def from crunch, etc. And most cloak users have access to recovery moves like ghold/pex/corv. However, tran’s ability shield only works for pon as its the only fire type mold breaker in the tier and tran doesn’t have reliable recovery options other than leftovers.

 

[KataphraktoiUntaken]

Just stopping by to say I appreciate seeing a council take their time to get the community involved without quickbanning. As for the panicky\hysterical demands for the ban to go through, I really dont see how taking a week or two to implement to fix it will have a negative impact. Lets let the hype cool down a bit then decide on banning.

 

[Danwithnoplan]

At least cloak has the niche in preventing effects other than salt cure, for example flinch from fake out/iron head, burn from scald, -def from crunch, etc. And most cloak users have access to recovery moves like ghold/pex/corv. However, tran’s ability shield only works for pon as its the only fire type mold breaker in the tier and tran doesn’t have reliable recovery options other than leftovers.

Not to mention stomping tantrum firepon can clown your ability shield heatran on the switch.

This pokemon is very over centralizing as hell in my opinion and i think not giving it the boot with a quick ban would be a bad decision.

 

[Moyashi]

Just stopping by to say I appreciate seeing a council take their time to get the community involved without quickbanning. As for the panicky\hysterical demands for the ban to go through, I really dont see how taking a week or two to implement to fix it will have a negative impact. Lets let the hype cool down a bit then decide on banning.

OgerH has already gotten to hang around for a couple weeks now and nothing has really made it less absurd of a presence. There's no hysterics, this is just an overpowered Pokemon that doesn't belong in an OU environment and it's better to remove it so the tier can improve.

On that note, survey stuff

I gave metagame enjoyment and balance a 6, if possible 6.5. Tier feels notably better compared to when Gambit and Pult were legal, but there's still a lot of dumb stuff running around (which I'll get to). It's playable very much, but not amazing.

I gave a 3, but would 3.5 if it were an option. It feels very strong right now and has been steadily growing in prominence last couple months as people realize how difficult it can be to answer. Defensive counterplay definitely exists with Ferro, Skarm, MScizor and fast scarfers to contain it, but the former three are not ironclad answers and the latter can be circumvented by tera. Scale shot is a big buff as it can threaten to sweep frailer teams with the speed boost, although MScizor and MLop are good at revenging tera notwithstanding. I think this has potential to be really problematic but may need more time.

is also a 3/3.5 for me. On the one hand, it brings crucial defensive importance in being one of the best checks to various threats like Scarf Lele, IV, Sneasler, Koko, Mega Medicham and more. On the other hand, it heavily dictates teambuilding as a result of Good as Gold blocking defog, and thanks to bulk investment is capable of shutting down most removal attempts, especially with tera to best Moltres. Tera also makes it dangerous offensively through Nasty Plot and I find it's somewhat troublesome for bulkier teams to get past because it is immune to many common anti set up tactics. I think this one may need a suspect down the road.

I gave a 4. Less because it's super oppressive, although the KokoSneasler core is very potent, but because its capacity to BS counterplay with Dire Claw is just dishonest and bad for the game. I hate playing or watching games where perfectly good counterplay is cheated by a sudden para into full paralysis, or sudden sleep which even lets it get extra set up, and the post unburden speed on top of its huge natural power is unreasonable to answer. It's possible to contain with Pokemon like Gliscor and Gholdengo as well as Toxapex and LandorusT, but tera is a tool to circumvent most of this too.

a top presence for sure but ATM I actually find it the least offensive presence of what's on this list so I gave it a 2. It mainly suffers from its own versatility which causes it to have moveslot problems no matter the set, which can cause inconsistency issues, and the fact that Booster sets get less threatening if they're chased out early which is far from unreasonable to accomplish. Again, super potent and the experimentation with Z sets make me eye it more warily as do Encore sets, but for now not a priority I think.

everyone has said what needs to about this Mon, and I feel stupid for nomming it so low for the VR (I think only A?) a while back. It's way too strong offensively with minimal defensive counterplay and more forces reactive defensive teras to contain which is never.s good sign. Offensive counterplay exists, but trailblaze variants can limit this and make it difficult even on that end. This is just an overpowered presence and has no business staying. Please get rid of this Pokemon.

I tentatively gave it a 3 but not sure whether I think it's broken. I'm mainly wary of how tera lets it get free set up on most counterplay and its immense natural strength makes it very difficult for bulkier teams to handle once boosted. Offensive counterplay exists, though it can still often trade 1v1 vs those teams so it hardly is deadweight. I think this one needs to be observed for a before deciding on anything.

less silly than I thought it'd be by quite a bit. It's still solid, and I think spdef Bulk Up sets are very fun options as a wincon or just a wall breaker, and there's probably more possibilities (I've seen a few AV sets with mola support to absorb status and wall break). TR sets are... weird. They work and don't at the same time. I don't think this is worth action right now. It just feels solid, and has to deal with opportunity cost of not using BM, but maybe down the road it'll get optimized better or TR teams will become optimized and be an issue (probably not).

I fully sympathize with wanting to test this given how early it was banned and had it not been for a certain buff, I would've probably been okay with one but the addition of knock off is really really big and I'm much less comfortable letting it run around now while we still have contentious Pokemon in the tier. It's worth testing eventually when the meta is in a stable place, but as of now I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[LBN]

Nuke hearthflame, the amount of tera dragons in my builder is going to drive me mad this Pokémon is so wickedly dishonest it makes chi yu feel free at least I could've chucked mega tyranitar at the problem and hope it went away but naw this thing disgusting.

Roaring moon is not remotely a priority in my opinion It's team utility is non existent and we have enough dumb wincons to prep for as of rn. Frankly, I think the plan should be as follows.

1: Nuke Hearthflame
2: Suspect one of Gholdengo/Baxcalibur
3: Iron Valiant/Stored Power memes
4:

Ok hear me out. With the advent of Kingambit being gone, Baxcalibur/Gholdengo likely to follow, I believe there's a solid chance the meta could adapt in a way where Mega meta gets naturally checked by enough threats to make it tolerable. Obviously, Mega metagross is incredible theres no way to spin it, but i think alot of it's natural checks (Scizor slowbro gliscor hippo etc) are either amazing or in for a glow up with the likely ban of Gholdengo. Additionally, other pains like Tapu lele would be given an additional very strong soft check / pursuit trapper to play around with. It's inability to Tera snowball also holds it back because it doesn't have much for things using tera to check it and handle it. Overall i think it has to potential to bring alot to the tier and it's worth giving a shot ideally in a post DLC2 world. Additionally the 4MSS where it doesn't beat everything and wants alot is stronger than ever.

Do I think Megagross would be balanced? Imma be honest probably not, but I think the world where it is is a world that should be tried. This tier is in a p bad spot and the root problem can't be dealt with, so it's in our best interest to give anything within reason a shot to make a great meta, and I believe Mega Meta is well within reason to have a shot down the road.

 

[Oculars]

ima keep it short n crispy with this one.

Ban:
Free:

 

[Astral Regulator]

ima keep it short n crispy with this one.

Ban:
Free:

Urshifu single strike should not get unbanned imo

 

[TCTphantom]

If we are just doing quick thoughts

Ban:

On the radar:

Free:

I think is probably the biggest concern in the tier rn. The way it warps the hazard meta just kind of...enables everything else. It kind of makes the tier feel more broken. It has its benefits, like how it does bring a lot to the tier defensively, but it feels so constraining in builder. I feel like if the hazards meta was more pallatable, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I think is silly and dumb, but tbh I think it is not that much of a priority. Its fat as hell and one of the best sweepers that got omega buffed in the DLC, but I feel the current meta handles it fine enough. I would be fine with letting it stew a bit more.

is a dumb mon, and if Gholdengo leaves it will be dumber. I would be fine with keeping an eye on this one especially if we choose to act on Gholdengo next.

 

[hidin]

Seeing a weird increase on the freeing Darkrai train when it's both something the tier doesn't need to handle and its just straight up broken. If you guys are going to keep on talking about it I'd like to see some reasoning because just saying to free Darkrai without any reasoning doesn't look intelligent nor very productive to discussion

Anyway, I'll follow the trend of posting how I want tiering decisions to be handled. Don't take this as set-in-stone decisions but moreso how I would like things to work for the meta

QB:
Suspect:
Test in OU:

I really dislike Baxcalibur, it's way too constricting in play and in the builder and with Tera, the new SD + Scale Shot sets, and even its standard Dragon Dance sets, it is an extreme headache to deal with even when you go out of your way to deal with it. No safe offensive or defensive check for this Pokemon exists; Tera with it invalidates revenge killers like Tapu Lele and Kartana, and defensive options are just completely out of the window with Baxcalibur, unless you use either Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor or Dondozo, and all of them are either passive in the case of Ferro and Dozo, or prone to hazard stack teams like Mega Scizor, which are very common in this tier. There's also Tera dependent checks like Iron Defense + Body Press Garganacl which does deal with it well but you're gonna have to stomach a boosted Glaive or Scale Shot first assuming you just brought it in and you're gonna die to the next attack shortly after. I genuinely don't see how people think Bax is okay and I want it gone ASAP.

Sneasler is an interesting one; there's no doubt that steam about it died down a little but its still pretty broken, I think using Dire Claw as an arguement to banning this is a bit oddish because a 16% to sleep or be paralyzed is quite not often more than people think but I absolutely agree in it being a factor in it being not balanced, albeit not a big one. I think Sneasler's broken is because of how insane it is with Unburden, revenge killing it is a chore and switching into a +2 Sneasler with a Tera Flying Acrobatics to smash its checks like Landorus-T and even Toxapex hurts, Gholdengo isn't safe either since Shadow Claw/Night Slash sets are just as good in my opinion though you get beat by the aforementioned checks better, though you shouldn't be sweeping with a SC/NS Sneasler when a Pex is alive anyway. I heard the idea of suspecting it but I don't think its worth the time and its better to just ban it ourselves and then go on with developing the tier.

Gholdengo has been a hot topic since the Tera suspect and I think I've had enough tangents in ND discussions in Discord about it; it's a very warping presence in the tier and the best Pokemon in it as well; though the defensive qualities it brings and how it is sort of not that hard to brute force through kind of makes some people hesistant about it, though I (keyword I) have only seen like 5 people ever say so. I'd rather let the community deal with it instead of a QB due to this but I'd vote Ban with the swiftness. Ursaluna-BM has very good trading power with Tera to the point where its honestly not ok to deal with and its extremely strong, should be looked at in the future as well and I think it's had enough time for us to know that there's pretty much 0 safe checks to it outside of revenge killing it, which you can do with any Pokemon ever

I think Knock Off singehandledly made Roaring Moon have a good chance of staying in Ubers prison, based off of my general experience with the Pokemon in SV Knock Off just invalidates so much that would try to deal with it and not to mention its already renowned strength with DD + Acrobatics sets. I think that testing it isn't that bad of an idea but I don't think it should be prioritized, if anything we need to have a bit more discussion about it to truly decide if its worth another chance down here.

Mega Metagross is absolutely busted at the moment and the Pokemon that people want to leave make that problem worse, you can say that it has it checks and such and how they'll get better with some Pokemon leaving but it doesn't have a hard time cracking through them or having support from a good teammate. Don't think we should really look at this and only talk about it in an emergency button-like tone.

Just know from the council that we are working on how things should play out in the future at an active pace, we're paying attention and listening to the community so as always remember to post your opinions on the metagame and such, one of us will always read it

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'm curious about the tier's stance on

in comparison to how it stands normal gen 9 OU, since I am not the most familiar with the tier.

In normal gen 9 OU, Sneasler is seen as a very potent threat, but even with Dire Claw RNG, it hasn't really been that much of a problem for the tier. There were eyes on it when it first came out at HOME, but such glares quickly dissipated afterwards.

In NatDex OU, I do recognize that there are now other powerful terrain setters not named Rillaboom in the tier, such as Koko and Lele, thus Unburden Sneasler is easier to slap on a team. However, I am interested in the difference of counterplay against this mon in this tier in comparison to gen 9 OU. Do the different terrain setters make counterplay against Sneasler more difficult to apply on a team, or are the natural checks to Sneasler seen in gen 9 OU not used as much in NatDex?

This post isn't really a counterargument to why Sneasler should be looked at in this tier; I am just more curious to why the perception of Sneasler seems to be noticeably different in this tier in comparison to gen 9 OU despite the mon itself being pretty much the exact same between the two tiers.

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

I'm curious about the tier's stance onView attachment 558113 in comparison to how it stands normal gen 9 OU, since I am not the most familiar with the tier.

In normal gen 9 OU, Sneasler is seen as a very potent threat, but even with Dire Claw RNG, it hasn't really been that much of a problem for the tier. There were eyes on it when it first came out at HOME, but such glares quickly dissipated afterwards.

In NatDex OU, I do recognize that there are now other powerful terrain setters not named Rillaboom in the tier, such as Koko and Lele, thus Unburden Sneasler is easier to slap on a team. However, I am interested in the difference of counterplay against this mon in this tier in comparison to gen 9 OU. Do the different terrain setters make counterplay against Sneasler more difficult to apply on a team, or are the natural checks to Sneasler seen in gen 9 OU not used as much in NatDex?

This post isn't really a counterargument to why Sneasler should be looked at in this tier; I am just more curious to why the perception of Sneasler seems to be noticeably different in this tier in comparison to gen 9 OU despite the mon itself being pretty much the exact same between the two tiers.

Like what you mentioned earlier, terrains is what makes sneas good. Mons like koko enable unburden much easier rather than using weird items like white herb. The said terrain mons also are good mons themselves(except fini and bulu we don't talk about them).

The problem though also has to do with natural checks. The tier has more balance/offensive oriented teams than fat/stall teams. This means that Sneasler has a easier time sweeping or picking off mons The counterplay is also limited as sneas checks that might be good or common in sv ou isn't as good or common in this one(like dondozo for example). While gholdengo does check sneas pretty well, Sneasler can just use tera dark night slash to get around it. Add this with rng dire claw cheese, it can become infuriating to play against.

tl:dr: more offensive teams + less counterplay= profit for sneasler

 

[Aesiro13]

In response to hidin:
I respect you and your opinions, and I agree with most of these votes. However, I feel that Sneasler isn't quite worthy of a QB, though a suspect is still probably needed. In my experience using it, I have discovered three sets, and each of them lack something that would make Sneasler truly broken. The Sash+SD set lacks reliability and is very weak to hazards, the Normal Gem+Fake Out set lacks power, and the Endure+Liechi Berry set lacks both. As for when Unburden is proc'd, Sneasler's low HP, DEF, and SPD stats make it very weak to any kind of priority, especially after a use of CC, and Corviknight and Gholdengo completely invalidate it.

 

[red fintans]

why exactly is even being tossed around? in an already messy meta why do we need something that relies/very heavily benefits from a 60% move and can also tera and nuke everything while being at a 125 base speed tier? can someone tell me cos none of the posts ive seen have any real explanation, its just "free darkrai & mmeta for fun cos they check each other" or something

 

[hidin]

In response to hidin:
I respect you and your opinions, and I agree with most of these votes. However, I feel that Sneasler isn't quite worthy of a QB, though a suspect is still probably needed. In my experience using it, I have discovered three sets, and each of them lack something that would make Sneasler truly broken. The Sash+SD set lacks reliability and is very weak to hazards, the Normal Gem+Fake Out set lacks power, and the Endure+Liechi Berry set lacks both. As for when Unburden is proc'd, Sneasler's low HP, DEF, and SPD stats make it very weak to any kind of priority, especially after a use of CC, and Corviknight and Gholdengo completely invalidate it.

All of those sets are extremely niche and are just outclassed by the better sets, that being Electric / Psychic / Grassy Seed sets with a falicitator like Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, and Rillaboom. These sets are way easier to use and pull off than stuff like Endure + Liechi and is the reason why many people dislike the Pokemonni the metagame. We've also sort of lacked strong priority since Kingambit's departure, having to rely on Mega Lopunny's Fake Out and Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch is sort of ok but the Pokemon won't get rid of it in one go and you'll have to do some risky trading when doing so. Corviknight is just a bad Pokemon and gets blown away by Close Combat boosted and Ghold can lose to Night Slash / Shadow Claw. I can see why people want to see a suspect, but its kind of obvious what the result will be and I think that it would be a waste of time for a suspect to be done on it.

 

[TCTphantom]

why exactly is even being tossed around? in an already messy meta why do we need something that relies/very heavily benefits from a 60% move and can also tera and nuke everything while being at a 125 base speed tier? can someone tell me cos none of the posts ive seen have any real explanation, its just "free darkrai & mmeta for fun cos they check each other" or something

I think Darkrai is a lot more broken on paper than it would be in practice. I’d honestly say it’s a safer drop than MMeta tbh.

Darkais Nasty Plot sets suffer from huge 4MSS. You obviously need Nasty Plot and Dark Pulse. Without Focus Blast or Ice Beam Tingu Lu can sit on you. Focus Blast helps more with other darks too. Without Sludge Bomb you have to deal with fairies checking you. Then you have Hypnosis. Honestly, I think hypnosis is a tinge overrated by people. Yes, sleep is cheesy. But 60% accuracy blows. Yet without Hypnosis getting that Nasty Plot is so much harder. Still, with the Nasty Plot sets, something will commonly be able to check Darkrai.

You can bleed the 4MSS into its other sets too. Specs for instance wants Trick, Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast, and Ice Beam on one set. Your coverage gets even worse when you factor in other sets like Substitute sets. I think in practice, most teams can handle Darkrai to a reasonable extent.

It’s also not that bulky. 70/90/90 is nothing to write home about and basically mandates Hypnosis. With how dumb the hazards meta is and how Mono Dark is not the best defensive type, it’s going to be hard to bring Darkrai in safely without it getting chunked. Bringing it after something dies is better but it has its own flaws. Unless you are dealing with something super passive or something Darkrai threatens itself, it’s gonna be hard for Darkrai to 1v1 without hypnosis luck. Also, it’s reasonably easy to revenge kill with a scarfer in a nightmare scenario. Speaking of nightmares, Bad Dreams is basically a non ability. You get some chip on hypnosis turns, but it’s still going to end up without an ability in most situations.

Despite all my statements, Darkrai would be a very good mon if it dropped. It’s basically Gengar on cocaine. 135 Spa is solid and its speed tier is fantastic. I just don’t think it’s as obviously broken as people think. Furthermore, National Dex hasn’t really tested Darkrai much at all, so I think it would be at worst good data for the future. Maybe we don’t test it right now, but I think it’s got more weight for a retest than anything that isn’t Roaring Moon.

 

[hidin]

NP + Dark Pulse + Focus Blast + Sludge Bomb (or something like Tera Blast Fairy) with either a Z Move, Chople Berry, or even a Life Orb is all that you need, Ice Beam hits nothing that you just break through and is a waste of a slot. Z Hypnosis sets also sound very threatening with Nasty Plot as you can both boost your Speed and put the opponent to sleep, albeit being unreliable but very uncompetitive especially with Bad Dreams and how easy it is for Darkrai to pull a sweep off compared to other Hypnosis + Psychium Z users like Xurkitree, who have a good bunch of problems compared to Darkrai. The only thing that would check this is either Clodsire, a Pokemon who's usage has near shrinked and which people dislike due to its passivity, or having an emergency Tera that is both unreliable and comes with opportunity cost. Specs sounds even more chaotic since Darkrai has some of the best coverage of all special attacks, and even Scarf sounds a bit worrisome as well. It also isn't hard to bring in a Pokemon like Darkrai in for a sweep, when you're using a Pokemon like it that cleans so fast mid- and late-game, and is easy to use when you play good, it should be putting in good work throughout a battle unless you play with it like a doll. Bad Dreams being near useless doesn't matter when the Pokemon its on is genuinely absurd. Really think we should do some more thinking when it comes to Darkrai because it really just has no reason to have a chance down here

 

[TCTphantom]

NP + Dark Pulse + Focus Blast + Sludge Bomb (or something like Tera Blast Fairy) with either a Z Move, Chople Berry, or even a Life Orb is all that you need, Ice Beam hits nothing that you just break through and is a waste of a slot. Z Hypnosis sets also sound very threatening with Nasty Plot as you can both boost your Speed and put the opponent to sleep, albeit being unreliable but very uncompetitive especially with Bad Dreams and how easy it is for Darkrai to pull a sweep off compared to other Hypnosis + Psychium Z users like Xurkitree, who have a good bunch of problems compared to Darkrai. The only thing that would check this is either Clodsire, a Pokemon who's usage has near shrinked and which people dislike due to its passivity, or having an emergency Tera that is both unreliable and comes with opportunity cost. Specs sounds even more chaotic since Darkrai has some of the best coverage of all special attacks, and even Scarf sounds a bit worrisome as well. It also isn't hard to bring in a Pokemon like Darkrai in for a sweep, when you're using a Pokemon like it that cleans so fast mid- and late-game, and is easy to use when you play good, it should be putting in good work throughout a battle unless you play with it like a doll. Bad Dreams being near useless doesn't matter when the Pokemon its on is genuinely absurd. Really think we should do some more thinking when it comes to Darkrai because it really just has no reason to have a chance down here

NP 3 attacks is going to be hard to set up. 70/90/90 bulk is frail and it does not have a defensive typing that is really doing it any favors. You are acting like Darkrai has free reign to set up a Nasty Plot and sweep. Looking at the VR, its going to be hard for Darkrai to set up 3 Attacks on anything that isnt hyper passive like Toxapex. Darkrai's defensive typing just doesn't do it many favors. Unless you are coming in on a Choice locked Lele (which would mean either something else already took a huge hit/died or you risked a 50/50) or a Gholdengo Shadow Ball, you are going to have a hard time setting up safely. It is very easy to post a wall of calcs that show that if Darkrai got its +2 boost its going to be a scary breaker. Most things if they get to set up are. The problem Darkrai has is that it just does not have as many opportunities to do that as it would appear on paper. Z Hypnosis honestly makes the issues even more difficult for it. Hypnosis does guarantee the set up, but it also makes that 4MSS even worse. You have to choose whether other Dark types like Ting Lu or bulky fairies are going to sit on you.

Choice sets are scary, but also are super prediction reliant. Just due to the way the tier is structured rn, we have answers to Dark spam. Darkrai is more or less forced to just spam Dark Pulse in most mus. Is that a bad thing? No, dark is one of the best offensive typings in the game. But it does make it more reasonable to switch into. Is switching into Specs Darkrai that much more debilitating than switching into Specs Lele? In my eyes, not really. Scarf is a great cleaner but it also has the issue of being a little on the weak side. For example, Darkrai will almost never 2HKO Defensive Landorus after rocks with its Scarf set.

Yes, Darkrai would be a good mon if it dropped. But it is far from the most obvious broken mon the tier could drop. It would shift things in the tier: so would any A- rank or higher mon being dropped into the meta. Darkrai would probably end up being a solid A rank at worst pokemon if we did drop it. It's obviously going to be good if a skilled pilot uses it. That applies to most other wallbreakers or frail sweepers. Scarf Lele can be backbreaking in the hands of a good player. Sneasler can clean up whole teams with a smart player piloting a team built to abuse it. If the mon is good, of course a good player could abuse it.

At the end of the day, Darkrai is a powerful offensive pokemon that offers little to no defensive utility and is relatively frail. It is always going to look scarier on paper. But being broken on paper does not automatically equal being broken in practice. It is even harder to gauge if Darkrai would be broken in practice because we havent messed with it at all this gen and it does not have a long history in National Dex. I honestly think a large part of the fear around Darkrai is the idea of how traditionally it has been overbearing in standard play, and we don't have a history of playing with it outside of Ubers. But honestly, this thing just looks like Cocaine Gengar. A scary, versatile breaker, but a clearly flawed one.

 

[red fintans]

At the end of the day, Darkrai is a powerful offensive pokemon that offers little to no defensive utility and is relatively frail.

Darkrai looks to me an HO mon or some sort of cleaner/breaker on other styles of offense, so why are we talking about its defenses? If anything it can come in on something it threatens, either after sacking something else like HO does or by slow pivot, and then it becomes a 50/50 if it kills or nplots and then we have a problem

Also this thing is quite crazy fast unless you compare it to stuff like mlop, it can reasonably clean even with a specs set

About 4MSS isnt that what teammates are for? You can bait out a reactive tera with something like Lele before you pop in Darkrai, and dont forget Darkrai does have tera blast so it can choose its coverage as it wishes

 

[Jho]

Alright thats far enough off topic, we aren't looking to unban Darkrai anytime soon, if ever. Metagame is in no fit state to start unbanning anything, let alone Darkrai. Anything more on it will be deleted and possibly lurk mored if its particularly egregious.

To steer us back on track, the three highest scoring Pokemon on the most recent survey were Baxcalibur, Sneasler, and Gholdengo. What are peoples thoughts on each of these and how do people want to see us handle them?

My current thoughts are that while Bax and Sneasler are really potent threats at the minute, Gholdengo seems to be a core issue in the metagame as it does so much. It keeps a vast portion of strong contenders at bay; things like Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, and even Sneasler itself to some degree are all kept under control by Gholdengo's existence. Gholdengo itself is also incredible at forcing progress vs a variety of teams, either via Tricking Scarf onto would-be checks or being able to easily set up on the vast majority of bulkier inclusions in the tier. None of this is to mention its ability to completely deny removal, which makes Spike Stacking so much harder to deal with especially with the quality of Spike setters we have in the tier now.

All of that being said, I'm still unsure if banning Gholdengo is the healthier move for the metagame, as all the aforementioned threats get exponentially better and it could lead to an avalanche effect where we have to get rid of a lot of Pokemon to re-stabilise. I think its a really interesting discussion and If Gholdengo does ever get a suspect test I think that will be the main conversation to have, similar to how the discussion always used to go around Lando-T in past generations; whether or not the almost incomparable compression is itself broken.

If you dont feel like diving into that then another question, how are people finding the DLC metagame post Hearthflame?

 

[about15gals]

Alright thats far enough off topic, we aren't looking to unban Darkrai anytime soon, if ever. Metagame is in no fit state to start unbanning anything, let alone Darkrai. Anything more on it will be deleted and possibly lurk mored if its particularly egregious.

To steer us back on track, the three highest scoring Pokemon on the most recent survey were Baxcalibur, Sneasler, and Gholdengo. What are peoples thoughts on each of these and how do people want to see us handle them?

My current thoughts are that while Bax and Sneasler are really potent threats at the minute, Gholdengo seems to be a core issue in the metagame as it does so much. It keeps a vast portion of strong contenders at bay; things like Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, and even Sneasler itself to some degree are all kept under control by Gholdengo's existence. Gholdengo itself is also incredible at forcing progress vs a variety of teams, either via Tricking Scarf onto would-be checks or being able to easily set up on the vast majority of bulkier inclusions in the tier. None of this is to mention its ability to completely deny removal, which makes Spike Stacking so much harder to deal with especially with the quality of Spike setters we have in the tier now.

All of that being said, I'm still unsure if banning Gholdengo is the healthier move for the metagame, as all the aforementioned threats get exponentially better and it could lead to an avalanche effect where we have to get rid of a lot of Pokemon to re-stabilise. I think its a really interesting discussion and If Gholdengo does ever get a suspect test I think that will be the main conversation to have, similar to how the discussion always used to go around Lando-T in past generations; whether or not the almost incomparable compression is itself broken.

If you dont feel like diving into that then another question, how are people finding the DLC metagame post Hearthflame?

hearthflame ban did a lot, and ive enjoyed experimenting a lot with some of the new pokemon, mainly sinistcha as its a really fun pokemon to use and I'm planning on making an mban team with it getting poltergeist

I can honestly see a suspect test for bax happening, its really strong and very versatile, scale shot makes it really potent on screens and on hail it's also got really good longlevity and tends to be annoying to deal with

Sneasler is doing sneasler things, just being a general asspain, probably banworthy but not priority number 1

Gholdengo is a really interesting scenario, I do think that it's broken and has heavily contributed to this really hazardspam based metagame, and its definitely stifling the amount of variance we have as viable foggers. I feel like banning it would open up the tier a but but would definitely require some heavy looking into for pokemon like ival (although I feel like glowking is a good pokemon that naturally beats it)

 

[red fintans]

bax rn is in feeling pretty busted since its incredibly hard to revenge and sets up so easily behind veil, and because of this it can also set up pretty much as much as it wants vs bulkier builds to break through everything not named dondozo

sneasler i feel is naturally defensively checked by enough stuff but the way it just invalidates most offense is kinda cringe (speed tiers go bye bye)

gholdengo... ehh i dont wanna think about it, too much will happen if we remove something so central to the meta rn