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Slightly related to hazards, I feel I am coming to the regrettable conclusion that the general best Chomp is bulky hazard Chomp if you don't have a team which can make use of the swords dance scale shot sweeping set. Some mons like Clefable and Enamorous are annoying as anything, but Dragon Tail feels like a really decent move with threats like formerly Sneasler, Zamazenta, Seed users, as well as Booster mons safe for Valiant. Given how much mons naturally get chipped by rough skin/rocky helmet combination and the general forced movement of Dragon Tail, I've found Chomp to not really be individually winning me games with one key play, but rather keeps momentum and prevents switch in win cons in his HO meta.
I wonder, if instead of getting dragon dance, if getting shore up or a similar recovery move would bolster garchomp's viability. It would be one of only a few pokemon with both spikes and instant recovery. Probably wouldn't but it would be cool to see a land shark shake off all the damage it took by soaking up sand.
Also would mean garchomp could be better on sand teams due to shore up recovering more in sandstorm.
if gholdengo is so easy to plan for and adapt to, why aren't more people doing it? why do so many people think that the best solution is banning the mon? is that big a portion of the playerbase too bad or lazy to adapt?
yeah and they’re working as intended, there needs to be some willingness to adapt a team slightly if the anti-hazard removal is performing well against it.
Ban dengo players would have you believe the metagame is in complete shambles and stuff just constantly litters the floor when Gliscor got banned, Hstack is going down and a rise in boots means that hazards themselves have less value in a match and mons like Cinder already incentivize that in the first place.
All im saying is that Dengo brings a ton into the tier and players just seem to hate centralization in a metagame apparently.
Ban dengo players would have you believe the metagame is in complete shambles and stuff just constantly litters the floor when Gliscor got banned, Hstack is going down and a rise in boots means that hazards themselves have less value in a match and mons like Cinder already incentivize that in the first place.
All im saying is that Dengo brings a ton into the tier and players just seem to hate centralization in a metagame apparently.
pro dengo players would have you believe that being forced to run boots on literally every mon if you're playing anything besides offense is normal and ok. sure, ghold brings a lot to the tier and i can't deny that. it's a great glue mon no matter what your team is—even stall appreciates a bulky ghost/steel defog blocker with recovery. but it also warps the tier around hazards and offense in a very unhealthy way that's been evident since close to the beginning of the meta. the fact that boots are so necessary on fatter playstyles directly affects their viability and diversity, which shifts things away from stall and balance, and that is a direct result of hazards being both more common than ever and more difficult to remove than ever. the difficulty of removal can be solved in one fell swoop by banning ghold, which should make the increased number of setters more bearable
I love being forced to run boots! I hate using Leftovers to give my Pokémon with no recovery a little longevity! I hate Choiced items and life orb giving my mons a boost in power! I feel so smart adapting to the meta by just actively trying to ignore the problem instead of addressing it!
you ever noticed how despite Ace, Tusk, and HDB having such high usage hazard stack/webs are still popular play styles?
75/75 special bulk for a typing that get's super-effective by two common special types
and this thing ain't even salamence or garchomp like to be considered overpowered
i mean...goldhengo stills laughing on their faces being able to block the things out of our faces
Look the points you're making are not wrong, just completely misdirectioned. I also spent lots of time arguing why Gliscor could successfully be killed and/or walled, tried things like Hex Drifblim and NG Air Balloon G-Weezing, but the problem with Gliscor was never that it was unkillable. The issue most people were seeing with it is that the way it could set up spikes unopposed and keep em on the field thanks to Ghold made for a centrified meta. If you manage to kill 4-5 mons in the opponents team and Gliscor is the last one, then yeah sure, you get to kill it relatively easily, but that was never the concern. I'm not 100% on board with the ban, I personally think it's more of a "flavour" issue if that makes sense, but people spoke and there's been tons of positive feedback. Plus DLC2 is around the corner and Gliscor is most likely going to be unbanned. However, there's no denying that its superiority in the current meta was a bit too much at times. And that's a superiority in the middle game, not in a way that Gliscor could never be killed.
pro dengo players would have you believe that being forced to run boots on literally every mon if you're playing anything besides offense is normal and ok. sure, ghold brings a lot to the tier and i can't deny that. it's a great glue mon no matter what your team is—even stall appreciates a bulky ghost/steel defog blocker with recovery. but it also warps the tier around hazards and offense in a very unhealthy way that's been evident since close to the beginning of the meta. the fact that boots are so necessary on fatter playstyles directly affects their viability and diversity, which shifts things away from stall and balance (and ain't it just the darndest thing that shifting the tier away from balance makes the tier unbalanced), and that is a direct result of hazards being both more common than ever and more difficult to remove than ever. the difficulty of removal can be solved in one fell swoop by banning ghold, which should make the increased number of setters more bearable
The viability of LO and choice items hasn’t been high for quite a while… I for one welcome the fluidity of being able to deal with choice items indirectly by hazards being prominent. Also, I appreciate that the booster energy threats all hate hazards.
Gholdengo is definitely strong, no denying it. But if the issue is with the hazards, then look at the cause for the problem - high powered threats that threaten to sweep in the few turns you have to remove the hazards - and not the symptom of the problem - people using gholdengo to block hazards and buy extra turns.
Okay, so hopefully it's clear that Hawlucha is inferior to Sneasler in... most if not all ways.
But with Sneasler gone, could Hawlucha find a niche partnered alongside Rillaboom?
Similarly, what about ? Can it be the we have at home?
Again, neither of these have the stats that Sneasler does, but maybe we can rebuild it- we have the technology!!
The thinking behind this is that Unburdened adamant Grafaiai can still outspeed a Jolly +1 Pult.
The speed is still there, and the Knock Off actually decently exciting as coverage over what Sneasler ran.
The difference is in the calcs:
252+ Atk Grafaiai Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 177-208 (46 - 54.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Grafaiai Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 352-415 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 220-259 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 438-516 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Grafaiai can still do a decent impression with a Gunk shot, although the KO isn't as guaranteed.
On To Great Tusk
+2 252+ Atk Grafaiai Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 252-298 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Grafaiai in Grassy Terrain: 132-156 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Grafaiai Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 334-394 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Grafaiai Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 500-590 (134.7 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Grafaiai: 374-444 (140 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Let's look at Kingambit next:
252+ Atk Tera Fighting Grafaiai Tera Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 400-472 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Grafaiai Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 332-392 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Grafaiai: 210-247 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Grafaiai: 92-108 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Fighting Grafaiai Tera Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 50-59 (12.5 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Tera Fighting Grafaiai Gunk Shot vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 296-350 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 736-868 (184 - 217%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasler: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 368-434 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
So... it looks like Grafaiai needs to tera fighting in order to beat Kingambit, or run Low Kick.
Now what about ?
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Grafaiai Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 390-460 (123.8 - 146%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Grafaiai: 261-307 (97.7 - 114.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
I know these are all a bunch of random calcs. I originally started this as a meme post, but now I'm actually wondering: Could Grafaiai do a decent job as a replacement Sneasler? It obviously won't be able to break Big Stall like Dozo... Or can it?
252+ Atk Grafaiai Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 114-135 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Unaware Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grafaiai: 130-154 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
No. It can't.
Anyways, I didn't do any sort of honest work investigating this, but I'm curious to hear what others think. Can Grafaiai pull the weight that Sneasler did? It's nowhere near the same stats, but I think it could have a niche if people wanted to work for it or refuse to give up on Rillaboosted ELO
The viability of LO and choice items hasn’t been high for quite a while… I for one welcome the fluidity of being able to deal with choice items indirectly by hazards being prominent. Also, I appreciate that the booster energy threats all hate hazards.
Gholdengo is definitely strong, no denying it. But if the issue is with the hazards, then look at the cause for the problem - high powered threats that threaten to sweep in the few turns you have to remove the hazards - and not the symptom of the problem - people using gholdengo to block hazards and buy extra turns.
Not only is the list of high powered threats endless. Let us not ignore the fact that Gholdengo isn’t just some passive spin blocker like Gen 4 Spiritomb/Dusknoir. Gholdengo IS a high powered threat in its own right! One of the best abilities in the game, 133 spattack, arguably the best type combo in the game, good bulk, recovery, utility, and set up! Gholdengo is easily an S ranked Pokemon on its merits alone.
factor in the effect Gholdengo has on team builder alone it becomes evident that, yeah, it kinda is the problem.
Not only is the list of high powered threats endless. Let us not ignore the fact that Gholdengo isn’t just some passive spin blocker like Gen 4 Spiritomb/Dusknoir. Gholdengo IS a high powered threat in its own right! One of the best abilities in the game, 133 spattack, arguably the best type combo in the game, good bulk, recovery, utility, and set up! Gholdengo is easily an S ranked Pokemon on its merits alone.
factor in the effect Gholdengo has on team builder alone it becomes evident that, yeah, it kinda is the problem.
The viability of LO and choice items hasn’t been high for quite a while… I for one welcome the fluidity of being able to deal with choice items indirectly by hazards being prominent. Also, I appreciate that the booster energy threats all hate hazards.
life orb i agree with, but choice items? really? there are plenty of mons that viably run choice items. i'm gonna go pull from the 1825 stats this time to see what mons run choice items at high ladder enough to mention, because high ladder tends to more accurately reflect what sets and mons are viable (as opposed to the 1695 stats, which reflect what's more common):
and sure, boots are a good item—one of the best even in a less hazard-filled meta, as we saw last gen—but the fact that they're necessary as opposed to merely good is a problem. the fact that almost all of these mons are running boots more than these choice items is a problem
The reason why Hawlucha was (and still is) good despite its low attack is because it had an incredibly powerful 120 + 110 base powere STAB combo that hits the majority of the metagame neutrally, and Unburden + its insane speed tier allowed it to run Adamant for free. Combine that with its speed being so insanely high it’s actually allowed to invest in HP which alongside seed boosts makes it surprisingly easy for it to set up Swords Dances, and Hawlucha actually hits pretty damn hard.
Then Sneasler also gets everything I just said and STILL has the attack stat of Urshifu to boot. It’s an insanely ridiculous Pokémon and it was really only waiting for a good terrain setter to enable it, and that setter was Grassy Glide Rillaboom. Spoiler: it’s gonna probably be even more broken in the DLC alongside the inevitable Tapu Koko who also enables stuff like Iron Valiant’s Quark Drive for free.
and sure, boots are a good item—one of the best even in a less hazard-filled meta, as we saw last gen—but the fact that they're necessary as opposed to merely good is a problem
This is the main thing. Boots being a top tier item is great! Awesome even! But soon as an item crosses from "Very good" to "necessary" due to the sheer abundance/counterplay required, it becomes a sign that something is wrong. All other items shouldn't shoot down in usage due to boots being so necessary, it not only cuts down variety in sets but goes to show one centralizing force is a little *too* centralizing.
If everyone had to run Lumberry due to a field affect that immediately applied burn once, it'd be ridiculous. Just like it's a bit ridiculous that everyone has to run boots due to the sheer hoops you gotta jump thru for hazard removal, and then Ghold removal, and then...
The reason why Hawlucha was (and still is) good despite its low attack is because it had an incredibly powerful 120 + 110 base powere STAB combo that hits the majority of the metagame neutrally, and Unburden + its insane speed tier allowed it to run Adamant for free. Combine that with easy Swords Dance due to defense boosts from seeds and Hawlucha actually hits pretty damn hard.
Then Sneasler also gets everything I just said and STILL has the attack stat of Urshifu to boot. It’s an insanely ridiculous Pokémon and it was really only waiting for a good terrain setter to enable it, and that setter was Grassy Glide Rillaboom. Spoiler: it’s gonna probably be even more broken in the DLC alongside the inevitable Tapu Koko who also enables stuff like Iron Valiant’s Quark Drive for free.
koko is absolutely not surviving the first radar if it ends up coming back. it breaks almost every future paradox mon and tera blast alone makes it a top-tier threat in its own right (and ice tera blast isn't even the only issue—it can get a physical fairy stab move now). screenshot this and pull it up in the dlc2 discussion thread when koko gets banned
Oh the Tapus are coming back? OOF, not looking forward to that ngl lmao
Though honestly it's mainly Koko that has me sweating bullets, unless they pull some Crown Tundra 2: Electric Boogaloo type beat and it's said they get all the busted terrain moves, (Rising Voltage, Expanding Force, etc.) even though that never came true. Though I sincerely hope Bulu gets some new tools to differentiate itself from Rillaboom, as there's not much reason to use Bulu over Rilla. If there's a time to get new moves, it's certainly now since they're handing out moves like candy.
oh, i was just saying if they come back. they're not in the leaked dex, but legendaries and mythicals from other regions tend to not be in the dex anyway, so we can't really tell whether the tapus or the ubs or the other regis or whatever are coming back
pro dengo players would have you believe that being forced to run boots on literally every mon if you're playing anything besides offense is normal and ok. sure, ghold brings a lot to the tier and i can't deny that. it's a great glue mon no matter what your team is—even stall appreciates a bulky ghost/steel defog blocker with recovery. but it also warps the tier around hazards and offense in a very unhealthy way that's been evident since close to the beginning of the meta. the fact that boots are so necessary on fatter playstyles directly affects their viability and diversity, which shifts things away from stall and balance, and that is a direct result of hazards being both more common than ever and more difficult to remove than ever. the difficulty of removal can be solved in one fell swoop by banning ghold, which should make the increased number of setters more bearable
Tbh this whole Gholdengo thing reminds me of something. Gholdengo is like that one villain that you very damn well know is evil asf, but tumblr users fell in love with him because he “looks cute” or something like that.
The most prominent leaker is hinting that every legendary is coming back, but not the Ultra Beasts this time. Which other Mythicals we might get though, if any, is anyone’s guess.
koko is absolutely not surviving the first radar if it ends up coming back. it breaks almost every future paradox mon and tera blast alone makes it a top-tier threat in its own right (and ice tera blast isn't even the only issue—it can get a physical fairy stab move now). screenshot this and pull it up in the dlc2 discussion thread when koko gets banned
The most prominent leaker is hinting that every legendary is coming back, but not the Ultra Beasts this time. Which other Mythicals we might get though, if any, is anyone’s guess.
That makes me sad. I love the Ultra Beasts and I was hoping they'd make a comeback so I could tera on my beautiful Jellyfish. Ah, my dreams of Tera Fairy Buzzswole is dead as well...[SPOILERS]
The most prominent leaker is hinting that every legendary is coming back, but not the Ultra Beasts this time. Which other Mythicals we might get though, if any, is anyone’s guess.
The most prominent leaker is hinting that every legendary is coming back, but not the Ultra Beasts this time. Which other Mythicals we might get though, if any, is anyone’s guess.
The most prominent leaker is hinting that every legendary is coming back, but not the Ultra Beasts this time. Which other Mythicals we might get though, if any, is anyone’s guess.
I was hoping ultra beasts could come back so that I could create Regieleki 3.0 (Jolteon was 2.0) from the massive special attack stat of Xurkitree. Also to see if they regifted it tail glow as they removed it from its level up moveset, but manaphy and volbeat are back in the game so we could have seen.
Tbh this whole Gholdengo thing reminds me of something. Gholdengo is like that one villain that you very damn well know is evil asf, but tumblr users fell in love with him because he “looks cute” or something like that.
"Ghlodengo is a Tumblr sexyman" was not on my bingo card today.
To prevent this from being a cursed one-liner shitpost: I am of the opinion that some sort of hazard blocking is a net positive to the game. The interplay between players trying to keep hazards up or remove them is an important part of the 6v6 Singles experience. I think the real issue is the things surrounding Gholdengo (e.g. powercreep, better Spikes setters, lack of options for removal) that bring the whole thing to its breaking point.
To prevent this from being a cursed one-liner shitpost: I am of the opinion that some sort of hazard blocking is a net positive to the game. The interplay between players trying to keep hazards up or remove them is an important part of the 6v6 Singles experience. I think the real issue is the things surrounding Gholdengo (e.g. powercreep, better Spikes setters, lack of options for removal) that bring the whole thing to its breaking point.
and to prevent this from being a cursed one-liner shitpost, i've added a second line
nah, i already used that joke. anyway, i partially agree that some hazard-removal blocking is an essential part of the game. spinblockers and defog punishers are necessary to good and healthy hazard play. however! blocking all common forms of hazard removal simultaneously in a single teamslot is not normal, necessary, or ok. if good as gold were on a non-ghost and ghold got a different ability, it'd be fine because then you would need to dedicate two slots to hazard-removal mitigation if you wanted to be 100% sure those things stayed up. also, blocking defog (instead of punishing it through things like defiant or contrary) is completely unprecedented, especially on a mon that is already immune to rapid spin and mortal spin—even if ghold had competitive instead, we wouldn't be in this spot because at least it couldn't completely negate defog simply by switching in. but as it is, we have a mon that can ensure hazards stay on the field simply by existing—you don't even have to switch it in because players won't even bother clicking hazard-removal moves if they see ghold. people are even ditching hazard removal altogether because of ghold and filling their moveslots with moves that actually do something, meaning that ghold is often affecting matches it isn't even in. that isn't healthy
To be honest gholdengo isn't super broken we still got cinderace with court change , we got taunt trap hetran , assault vest great tusk which is actually is really tanky and can ko gholdengo with ease i mean just look at this mind blowing tank (+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 132 HP / 232 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) also that's a +2 make it rain . Clearly there are many other niche counters like tidy up and neutralizing gas weezing galar defog , mold breaker hawlucha defog , also magic bounce hatterene does keep most hazards away except maybe ceaseless edge from hisui samurott . Gholdengo might be annoying but it isn't too broken for it do get banned .
None of these actually deal with the issue at hand aside from maybe assault vest Great Tusk, which is not a great mon in the current meta. Court change Cinderace? Cool, let me just get my hazards up again. My team has all boots, but yours doesn't, so you still get 6-0d by hazards. Taunt trap Heatran? No Gholdengo player is staying in against that, and that's okay; your team still gets 6-0d by hazards. Assault vest Great Tusk is not a great set in my opinion, as Great Tusk still does not actually beat a lot of hazard setters such as Glimmora, Greninja, Ribombee, and so on.
The issue with that saying that all these mons beat it is that, well, yeah, they beat it, but they have lasting impacts. Even if you have a bunch of Gholdengo "counters," you still need to account for hazards, and then account for what to do against mons that work in tandem to make those hazards work (i.e. a strong knock off user that can effortlessly force progress). It creates really similar structures all in all, and there really isn't a lot of diversity.
? Can it be the 
we have at home?
?
