It's so funny how gen 9 OU is SO FUCKIN TERRIBLE rn that we suddenly are talking about UUbers. Oh man that's gotta be the craziest thing I've seen all day
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Lol, people asking for something like this has been a thing for multiple gens and even tried multiple times (and failed because the way it was trying to be done those times was awful and too volitile to retain a playerbase). Trying to act like it's only because of Gen 9 is silly and just a perfect example of having 0 knowledge of anything aside from Gen 9 shit lol
Let's revive the gen 7 OU ladder. It's the current gen now gen 9 ou was never real. Here is why Thundurus Therian is actually underrated in the tier: zapdos but stronk.
You do realize that gen 9 OU is actually good right? Like, if people genuinely didn't like the tier, it wouldn't be played. Every gen's OU has similar problems, though it is potentially exacerbated this gen to power creep. Look at Gen 8, that was also 'terrible' in peoples eyes at the time. (Note, I don't think Gen 8 is terrible, just that similar issues that people have here are also in Gen 8 OU. Maybe one day we will look back and think that we were pathetic to be complaining when Gen 10 introduces a pokemon that has base 200 stats across the board.)
To get back on track to talk about OU, what pokemon do you believe is underrated, but probably never get into OU. My choice is meowscarada. It's fast and strong, while providing utility with spikes, but is sadly a bit overshadowed by other pokemon that do one of those roles better.
I'm a Thundurus-Therian disciple again. This boy is underrated and arguably not very good in the tier, but has a place as, to my mind, and probably among a few other things, a more offensively oriented zapdos. Thundy not having roost sucks BUT he makes up for that with just sheer strength. I genuinely think that if he had actually good fighting coverage and not focus blast, tera ice nasty plot thundy t would be worth using on screens teams because he's just that strong. Like thundy t works in gen 7 OU (at least to a degree) because it has a decent defensive profile, pretty good bulk behind screens, obscene strength, and, once per battle, the ability to nuke one (1) pokemon with z focus blast. Not to mention with HP ice he beats non-scarf lando and toxapex 100% of the time. Don't ask me how he handles assault vest magearna I haven't figured that out yet but regardless, I will propagandize about my boy until the day I die.
I'm pretty sure Specs Thundurus-T Tera Blast is nigh-unwallable in gen 9. I think the only thing in the tier that isn't 2hkod is Blissey, right? I can see it being used in a pivot-heavy team - get the toy-tail in front of a slower mon and absofuckinglutely murder it. If they switch into a faster mon it dies, and if they switch into a would-be wall it gets outspeed and 2hkod.
(then you die to stealth rock but hey big numbers)
My one issue with a choiced thundy is that they can very easily just switch tusk in and force you out while getting free hazards. Yeah you could predict that by clicking grass knot but it's a losing game because the grass knot probably isn't gonna do shit if they don't switch to tusk. I wanna cook with plot behind screens but ice is such a bad fucking type and I don't believe in tera flying on that set
I love you how are you so funny
according to last voting from qualified playerbase, gambit isn't https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2
it's in a very weird place, almost paired to manaphy and oger water. I am sure the council will do something if he gets more support. Until then pls stop saving an quoting little pieces of posts
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We’re basically in a lame duck phase of the meta and while action on gholdengo would be nice, if just for information sake we no formal way to remove him from the tier.
Also we have no actual idea if the information we get from banning gholdengo will actually be relevant in 3 weeks. It’s likely another 30-40 OU viable Pokémon coming into the tier as well as move tutors
Also we have no actual idea if the information we get from banning gholdengo will actually be relevant in 3 weeks. It’s likely another 30-40 OU viable Pokémon coming into the tier as well as move tutors
btw, now that UUbers is an actual ladder on Showdown, can we finally stop talking about dropping Darkrai down to OU? I get it, people wanna sweep with the funny 135 SpA / 125 Spe eldritch nightmare monster, but now it has its own tier to do that. It would also be better to focus on balancing out the tier by removing the rest of the overwhelming stuff instead of just dropping more potentially overwhelming stuff to complicate things.
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if you want to talk about UUbers or whatever other metagame, do it in the threads for those tiers -- not here. this is for discussion of OU
I bet someone out there will still think "oh yeah, this abomination that dominated ubers for 3 gens is alright to be in ou". Yes, it can't get semi reliable sleep, that still is not a good arguement dropping it. Even before, when I thought it would not be overpowered in OU, I didn't want it dropped because what benefit would it bring?
i agree that darkrai shouldn't be dropped, but dominating a meta in past gens doesn't mean much for present gens. tyranitar ruled ou from gens 3-5 and now it barely even has a niche in the tier. lando-t was omnipresent in gens 6-8 and he almost dropped to uu last month. hoopa-u ran roughshod over gen 6 to the point of a ban and has never made it back up above uu since. pex sat near the top of gens 7-8 and now it's struggling to keep its head above water. hell, let's go all the way back, snorlax was a dominant force in gen 1 and was the entire meta in gen 2 (not even figuratively), but now it's not even on the vr. past performance isn't a good indicator of future results in an environment this full of changes
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Okay yeah, that's a fair point. I probably should have said "oh yeah, this abomination that would wipe the floor of every OU mon and then dance on their graves is alright to be in OU." It's kinda crazy that garchomp was thought to be overpowered when it was introduced. The only pokemon that was introduced in Gen 4 that has not fallen out of OU is Gliscor, which is in Ubers. That's crazy right? I feel like I'm in a fever dream when I think about this situation.
agreed; never really subscribed to the mindset that it would be fine in the tier even after how much it fell off in gen 7 ubers just by virtue of it having a god-tier SpA stat and incredibly solid speed tier packed with all the coverage options it could ever ask for. i totally understand the novelty of it being in the tier and, on paper, it does have a rough matchup against some of the top threats in the meta due to how prevalent fighting/fairy/dark cores are, but i really do not want to account for a monster thats only barely different enough from spectrier in practice. honestly if it didnt have sludge bomb id be way more on board for testing it but the fact that its as easy as it is for it to work around its supposed answers is just a hard sell for me personally
i could be talking out of my ass and its actually way worse than im giving it credit for, but imo it shouldnt drop unless its part of the initial dlc2 unban wave, but thats just the two cents of a complete rando
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heatran only fell out of ou briefly and came right back up, and manaphy has remained ou since day 1 (though the damn thing's been trying its hardest to make it back to ubers, guess it misses kyogre)
this does seem like a compelling argument at first until you realize, oh wait a minute, it can just run hypnosis/np/dark pulse/fairy tera blast and eat the entire tier. this one isn't even entirely on-paper because gambit is doing the same thing right now with the same coverage—we have basically nothing for dark/fairy. it doesn't even need sludge bomb or ice beam or focus blast or any of the other million coverage moves it gets. i am firmly on board with you that darkrai should stay in ubers, and i think it should be on a survey (again) but absolutely not quickdropped without input
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apologies for the double post, but
ran a random calc out of curiosity and without any bulk investment it has a 94% chance to live an adamant +1 tera normal dragonite espeed which makes me feel an emotion that doesnt exist. i cant even call it a glass cannon, it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever
Some more darkrai calcs to show that this thing is bs.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai in Grassy Terrain: 205-243 (72.9 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 186-222 (66.1 - 79%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 217-256 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 211-249 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 169-199 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Like wtf are these calcs, this is bs and is in no way, shape or form, alright. 'Glass cannon' my ass.
a lot of people forget how vast the power difference between ou and ubers is. so i've made this handy chart to translate ubers-ese into ou-ish!
UBERS PHRASE | OU TRANSLATION |
| "frail" | "respectable bulk" |
| "only good for trick room or webs" | "base 90 speed" |
| "passive" | "overwhelming setup sweeper" |
| "setup bait" | "nothing does anything to it even at +6" |
| "glass cannon" | "oh shit, it lives +2 gambit sucker punch" |
| "easily worn down" | "can heal from any hit in the tier with one turn of leftovers" |
| "manageable" | "lmao no the fuck it isn't" |
| "good defogger" | [no phrase exists for this concept] |
| "only ubers by tiering and has no niche in the meta" | BROKEN |
Oh yeah I agree, if you play Nasty Plot, Tera Flying is kinda trash because if you can choose what to click multiple turns in a row bolt beam is unmatched. I don't like NP very much on Thundy-T though mostly because it doesn't have enough bulk, speed, or any means of longevity (by gen OU standards anyway) to make good use of a boost like that.
Tera Flying would be on specs sets, which I must entirely disagree on the Tusk thing:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-Therian Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 256-302 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is pre-terastallization and I've seen it being used as safe coverage pre-Tera. When it comes to Tusk, pre-tera it is much faster and scores the 2HKO with any unresisted moves. If you commit a Tera (which you often should if you slot in that particular specs set, kinda like Garganacl) it nukes Tusk into another dimension (and most other switch ins). Tusk can stop Volt Switch for sure but every time it goes in it risks getting splattered over the pavement. It leaves Tusk players in a very uncomfortable situation.
Now, the bad part is you have to build around Teraing it. The players getting top 10 on the ladder with Garganacl kinda expect to Tera on it every game so it's nothing out of this world.
Air Slash does get boosted by Sharpness
This allows Samurott-Hisui to counter back physical walls such as Dondozo and Great Tusk.
Sharpness Tera Flying Air Slash will 2HKO an 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo with Modest nature and Life Orb [308-363 (61.1 - 72%)]
Surf or Hydro Pump will destroy Great Tusk.
The Flying tera allow allows Samurott-Hisui to resist Body Press and other fighting type moves in addition of Ground type, Spikes and Sticky Web immunity.
However, it puts Samurott-Hisui at more disadvantage against a Specially defensive Ting-Lu, due to how Vessel of Ruin works useless if it has rain setter.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 218-260 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 268-320 (52.1 - 62.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rain calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Rain: 330-390 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Rain: 406-478 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This allows Samurott-Hisui to counter back physical walls such as Dondozo and Great Tusk.
Sharpness Tera Flying Air Slash will 2HKO an 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo with Modest nature and Life Orb [308-363 (61.1 - 72%)]
Surf or Hydro Pump will destroy Great Tusk.
The Flying tera allow allows Samurott-Hisui to resist Body Press and other fighting type moves in addition of Ground type, Spikes and Sticky Web immunity.
However, it puts Samurott-Hisui at more disadvantage against a Specially defensive Ting-Lu, due to how Vessel of Ruin works useless if it has rain setter.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 218-260 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 268-320 (52.1 - 62.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rain calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Rain: 330-390 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott-Hisui Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu in Rain: 406-478 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Speaking about weather such as the post above, thoughts on Scovillian in Sun? it seems to go into OU really well right now, and with Skeledirge not seeing as much usage it looks good as of right now, except two major problems.
Scovillain @ Expert Belt
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower
- Stomping Tantrum
i feel like this set could be nice, and ill explain all of it in detail. growth is standard, giga drain over energy ball/solar beam is to regain HP back against bulkier targers such as blissey and ting lu so it wont get run down easier. flamethrower is strong in sun, i dont think fire blast is necessary. stomping tantrum is for fire types and especially for heatran. +2 tantrum kills heatrean already but eith expert belt +2 tantrum guarentees the KO on bulky ace. life orb could be ran w good synergy w giga drain but i prefer expert belt for longevity, having a smaller chance of being revenge killed. tera fairy is a defensive tera which blocks certain priority like sucker punch from hsam/gambit/ace, and to help with valiant.
the reason why its helpful against valiant is because even at 252 +speed, it SPEED TIES with valiant (first major problem!) . you can run 252 +speed, but the 40 attack IVs help with cinderace. a valiant trying to revenge with a move such as close combat is now resisted due to tera fairy.
second major problem is dragonite as all of scovillians move are resistant against dnite, ans can easily revenge it. other than these two problems, i feel like scovillian have a niche in ou right now
Scovillain @ Expert Belt
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Naive Nature
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower
- Stomping Tantrum
i feel like this set could be nice, and ill explain all of it in detail. growth is standard, giga drain over energy ball/solar beam is to regain HP back against bulkier targers such as blissey and ting lu so it wont get run down easier. flamethrower is strong in sun, i dont think fire blast is necessary. stomping tantrum is for fire types and especially for heatran. +2 tantrum kills heatrean already but eith expert belt +2 tantrum guarentees the KO on bulky ace. life orb could be ran w good synergy w giga drain but i prefer expert belt for longevity, having a smaller chance of being revenge killed. tera fairy is a defensive tera which blocks certain priority like sucker punch from hsam/gambit/ace, and to help with valiant.
the reason why its helpful against valiant is because even at 252 +speed, it SPEED TIES with valiant (first major problem!) . you can run 252 +speed, but the 40 attack IVs help with cinderace. a valiant trying to revenge with a move such as close combat is now resisted due to tera fairy.
second major problem is dragonite as all of scovillians move are resistant against dnite, ans can easily revenge it. other than these two problems, i feel like scovillian have a niche in ou right now
if you want to be pedantic: since "kokoloko tiering" has come back up as a topic of discussion, we should recognize that Manaphy dropped to UU because of how stats were calculated in early XY, although it was banned asap
Okay, just wondering, but why are people sleeping on Enamorus? Seriously, this thing is still dangerous as all hell, and is basically a mini iron valiant. It can run three different sets that wildly change its counters. There is the contrary physical set, the mixed set (the one that I think is the hardest to counter) and the special set. Even these can have differences that make it more difficult to stop, such as the choice scarf set or the calm mind set. TBH, this thing is wild and should be talked about more often.
You answered your own question. It’s not a bad Pokémon at all, it just competes for a teamslot with one of the best Pokémon in the tier, and while it does still have some advantages over it and niches it doesn’t, Valiant is still overall a better pick most of the time. Doesn’t mean it’s not gonna put in work on most teams you put it on though.
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