Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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I know this is irrational, but Im worried for volcarona, im worried that the extreme power creep of the second dlc will hamper with its viability, im particularly concerned about what will happen to it if tera is banned because gamefreak is looking to make the 19th tera type broken, i doubt it will have a place in the meta without tera since ou will be so fast and hard hitting
 
Yesterday, despite it being Thanksgiving, I got up the survey and posted an unprecedented, long PR thread + post here to determine how to proceed because the council lacks consensus and there is no precedent. Do you want me to just ignore my council, ignore policy and common sense, and go rogue? I am going out of my way to get us to the optimal decision here -- if you want more, that is on you, not on me.

This is an awful comparison. Mega Sableye in ORAS was at the end of a generation when it was still perfectly playable and not about to reset and have the whole suspect undone. Old generation tiering is in the same boat. You are not thinking this through at all if you are comparing the two and I implore you to take a step back and think it through.

This is also untrue. We could've had more suspects before DLC1 or during last generation had resets not been impending. This larger discussion and the PR thread are a long time coming. UUTL Lily even cited a similar experience in UU, too. You really have ignored a lot of what we said in posts yesterday for the sake of your own specific agenda I feel.

This is literally the entire point of why I posted a thread about where and when to draw a line. I literally said this same thing in my posts yesterday paraphrased. You are entitled to weigh an opinion on it, but ignoring what we said and then spitting it out as criticism that is uninformed is baffling. Be better.
i apologize for my comments. i was out of line. i'm just upset that it looks like nothing will happen with gholdengo even after how hard so many people have fought to see something happen with it. i'm frustrated that we finally got enough votes for the thing and it's going to dodge action again because the clock ran out, and it's probably going to dodge the same bullet in dlc2 because we'll just forget about it. and i'm sad because no matter how much i post, nothing i do matters. i don't have enough skill or influence to enact change. i don't have the credentials to make people listen to me. i don't even have the manners to make people like me. i'm just an internet clown who happens to make more posts than anyone else. no one even wants me here, i hurt every time i try to help, and i'm lashing out in frustration because i realize that i can't be better. i will no longer be participating in tiering discourse until the dlc drops and i know my lack of contribution will not be missed
 
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Is there any interest in preserving the DLC1 Meta? Are there people playing the Pre-HOME meta? Are people playing RS200? If that is going to be a super deciding factor, then maybe yeah, let's suspect it for preservation.

However, I'm completely baffled at the blatant onesidedness of so many of you. Sometimes things are simple, this is not one of them. This is a complex issue with simplistic responses. If Gholdengo was on trial for tax evasion, you're basically saying let's throw him in prison before we select jurors. Your behaviour is completely guilty until proven innocent, but also it's a fallacy. It's a damn win-win for anti-Ghold. If Ghold stays you're going to keep complaining about its brokenness and if it goes you're going to point out how good the meta is without it and it doesn't need to return for DLC2.

Agree or not, but Finch and the council has made abundantly clear on multiple occasions that we do not tier based on how we like the tier in the absence of what we tier, but rather on how the tier currently is with it. You're literally asking to bend the rules we have for one mon. You're entitled to not want Ghold in the tier and you may be right in that it is broken, however it is incredibly childish, petty and immature to not give it and Gambit (as I've seen others clamor) their due processes when they're such complex questions. Please stop spewing misinformation, this is the damn bandwagon fallacy time and time again. It is extremely tiring.

edit to not double post:

i apologize for my comments. i was out of line. i'm just upset that it looks like nothing will happen with gholdengo even after how hard so many people have fought to see something happen with it. i'm frustrated that we finally got enough votes for the thing and it's going to dodge action again because the clock ran out, and it's probably going to dodge the same bullet in dlc2 because we'll just forget about it. and i'm sad because no matter how much i post, nothing i do matters. i don't have enough skill or influence to enact change. i don't have the credentials to make people listen to me. i don't even have the manners to make people like me. i'm just an internet clown who happens to make more posts than anyone else. no one even wants me here, i hurt every time i try to help, and i'm lashing out in frustration because i realize that i can't be better

Believe me when I say this, as I could have perfectly ignore this after how you responded yesterday to me and others: you are appreciated and liked and your passion shows in everything you post here. We are all complex people with complex problems and ideas. The slightest of tonal shifts on your end would help convey your points and motivation way better. Please don't stop posting but let's all be better.
 
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To be fully honest, if ghold got banned now, I'm not entirely convinced that it would be balanced enough come dlc2 to warrant a drop - much like my opinions on volc being too much for the tier even now. Unless we get confirmation of a defog tm that lets us have defoggers that can feasibly deal with gholdengo or just mons that can put a hard cap on the amount of hazards that can be set (the latter being impossible due to requiring trapping and the ability to be able to take out all of the current setters in only one to two turns) I don't see ghold co-existing with the tier at all.
 
I'm not sure if the Defog distribution theory would make me okay with Gholdengo staying (obviously pending what a scenario would be like in practice), since the Hazard strangling is one part for sure, but I also think this Pokemon alone is a one man Stall/Balance killer as a style since the only way to fight it is to directly KO a mon with Recovery and arguably the best typing in the game (Steel/Fairy is a contender defensively but this is hard to beat as an Offense/Defense package) on top of everything else it has like a stupid broad movepool and fairly well distributed stats..

Unrelated/Tiering Irrelevant Fun Fact: If Gholdengo gets banned (Steel), then Gen 9 "original" bans (So QB/Suspected for the first time this gen or at least being "free" in Gen 8 but not this one for returners, which excludes Magearna and Zama-C) will have encompassed every type except Rock (Steel and Rock are all we haven't seen yet under this criteria).
 
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I think the only two realistic options are quickban or nothing, and the people in power lean one way certainly. I think the quickban idea is a somewhat novel one, and maybe even a good one, but could set bad precedent and basically feels like what people ask for when they want a "suspect ladder" as itd be 3 or so weeks with it not around at the longest.

I personally think it leans excusable because it has been reiterated that, no matter what happens, Gholdengo WILL be back in DLC2, so even a theoretical quickban now can be pre and postfaced (is that a word) that this is temporary and primarily due to the time after a suspect test being inefficient to accurately guage the effect on no Gholdengo in our meta. (It has also been noted by someone in the last few pages that a suspect which would lead to only one potential week of a Gholdengoless meta would likely cause less players to try and req farm for something which is equally as time consuming as other suspects while having a foretold conclusion (returning to the tier in DLC2))

Once again, multiple council members are as community focused as they can be, and incredible Gholdengo support, assuming it were to stay in surveys post DLC2 launch, means that whether or not it's acted on quickly is entirely up to the qualified playerbase's opinion, so no action for the next few weeks isn't the worst thing in the world either.
 
i apologize for my comments. i was out of line. i'm just upset that it looks like nothing will happen with gholdengo even after how hard so many people have fought to see something happen with it. i'm frustrated that we finally got enough votes for the thing and it's going to dodge action again because the clock ran out, and it's probably going to dodge the same bullet in dlc2 because we'll just forget about it. and i'm sad because no matter how much i post, nothing i do matters. i don't have enough skill or influence to enact change. i don't have the credentials to make people listen to me. i don't even have the manners to make people like me. i'm just an internet clown who happens to make more posts than anyone else. no one even wants me here, i hurt every time i try to help, and i'm lashing out in frustration because i realize that i can't be better

All in all, remember that even though we're all passionate about OU, it is still just a game - it's not worth to attach your self-worth to this website

Moreover, as someone who works in education and research I can tell you for a fact that the first requirement toward improvement is the awareness of one's own lack. Cheer up, go play other games, and come back with your best shitpost when you feel better
 
i apologize for my comments. i was out of line. i'm just upset that it looks like nothing will happen with gholdengo even after how hard so many people have fought to see something happen with it. i'm frustrated that we finally got enough votes for the thing and it's going to dodge action again because the clock ran out, and it's probably going to dodge the same bullet in dlc2 because we'll just forget about it. and i'm sad because no matter how much i post, nothing i do matters. i don't have enough skill or influence to enact change. i don't have the credentials to make people listen to me. i don't even have the manners to make people like me. i'm just an internet clown who happens to make more posts than anyone else. no one even wants me here, i hurt every time i try to help, and i'm lashing out in frustration because i realize that i can't be better

Nah fam I appreciate your presence on the discussion thread, I do want you here. You bring discussions that need to be brought up like Gholdengos place in the meta. No need to attack anyone even if their opinions differ, it happens though.
 
:Ogerpon:
みどりあ (Ogerpon) (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Ivy Cudgel
- Rock Tomb / Low Kick

Been using Teal Mask lately, and while it hasn't been a standout performer, it also hasn't been too bad. In general, speed tiers in gen 9 are a bit wack, with staples like Gholdengo, Kingambit, and Great Tusk generally being slow, but the high end like Booster Moth, Booster Valiant, Dragapult, and Zamazenta being extremely fast. Teal Mask has the unique distinction of being incredibly fast - one of the fastest Pokemon in OU in fact - after Tera. The dynamic way Teal Mask's speed works only if you Tera is a double edge sword, but I'd say it works to its benefit more often then not, since you can pick and choose the teams you want to Tera against. I'd say in most games, I don't really Tera Teal Mask, but having the option is nice vs some offensive teams. I am running other strong Tera abusers with Teal Mask, namely Garganacl and Gholdengo, and I'd say Teraing them is more useful in most cases, but the moments when teal mask Teras can also feel impactful. Aside from that, Teal Mask still has much of the wide reaching coverage Ogerpon Wellspring has, but being able to run an item like CB does help a lot with its damage potential. U-Turn and Knock Off are always great utility moves to have, and Teal Mask's signature STAB attack is also fantastic due to being reliable and making no contact - great vs Cheapdos and Cheaptres. I've been running Rock Tomb in the last slot lately to catch the fliers off guard & 2HKO them on the switch, but Low Kick has been useful to get free KOes vs Gambit and Heatran that don't know better.

Overall, I'd say Teal Mask is fairly decent - much better than I gave it credit for - and I think it will a stronger niche in the tier with its main competition, Sneasler gone. Meowscarada is another Pokemon that I think will get much better now.
 
i apologize for my comments. i was out of line. i'm just upset that it looks like nothing will happen with gholdengo even after how hard so many people have fought to see something happen with it. i'm frustrated that we finally got enough votes for the thing and it's going to dodge action again because the clock ran out, and it's probably going to dodge the same bullet in dlc2 because we'll just forget about it. and i'm sad because no matter how much i post, nothing i do matters. i don't have enough skill or influence to enact change. i don't have the credentials to make people listen to me. i don't even have the manners to make people like me. i'm just an internet clown who happens to make more posts than anyone else. no one even wants me here, i hurt every time i try to help, and i'm lashing out in frustration because i realize that i can't be better. i will no longer be participating in tiering discourse until the dlc drops and i know my lack of contribution will not be missed
It happens to all of us don't worry, your presence in the thread is really appreciated even with all the discussions that happens. As some are saying, you don't really have to think about it but rather enjoy the final days of the metagame before DLC2 do a complete TKO on DLC1.
 
To not completely go against Mimikyu's sentiment before, it does indirectly ask a very interesting question imo. That being, if the amount of Pokemon which we could tow this line of both not ubers worthy but still sorta broken checks broken reaches the usual population of an OU tier, what IS wrong with these, let's say 30-40 Pokemon checking eachother in kinda toxic ways? Or I guess in other words, being the new standard of OU. Genuinely curious here as there is a sentiment that "this gens UU is last gens OU", and to that, why not embrace it? I can only see Gamefreak going harder on powercreep rather than pumping the breaks on it, so this will only become harder to deal with before it becomes easier.

I suppose this sort of depends on whether you view Ubers as a banlist or a tier of its own, but I think that history is only showing that more things proportionately end up in users each gen (roughly), so it being looked at as a banlist metagame may be something which is becoming outdated. Curious what anyone else thinks here.
 
To not completely go against Mimikyu's sentiment before, it does indirectly ask a very interesting question imo. That being, if the amount of Pokemon which we could tow this line of both not ubers worthy but still sorta broken checks broken reaches the usual population of an OU tier, what IS wrong with these, let's say 30-40 Pokemon checking eachother in kinda toxic ways? Or I guess in other words, being the new standard of OU. Genuinely curious here as there is a sentiment that "this gens UU is last gens OU", and to that, why not embrace it? I can only see Gamefreak going harder on powercreep rather than pumping the breaks on it, so this will only become harder to deal with before it becomes easier.

I suppose this sort of depends on whether you view Ubers as a banlist or a tier of its own, but I think that history is only showing that more things proportionately end up in users each gen (roughly), so it being looked at as a banlist metagame may be something which is becoming outdated. Curious what anyone else things here.
Ubers is a Banlist, simple as that

a Banlist with a metagame, but a Banlist none the less.

I really don’t see a problem with banning more things, and imo, we aren’t that far away from a good (not toxic) balance in the metagame (obviously DLC2 will change that) Like we only need to worry about Manaphy, Gold, Gambit, and maybe Woger and Valiant, then imo we have a solid balance. And that’s what the most recent survey told us. If you look at them
 
Ubers is a Banlist, simple as that

a Banlist with a metagame, but a Banlist none the less.

I really don’t see a problem with banning more things, and imo, we aren’t that far away from a good (not toxic) balance in the metagame (obviously DLC2 will change that) Like we only need to worry about Manaphy, Gold, Gambit, and maybe Woger and Valiant, then imo we have a solid balance. And that’s what the most recent survey told us. If you look at them
I'm not saying I'm a member of drop everything or to not ban. I'm just curious what it holds for the future, as we're 20 bans in and how many of them are this gens mons? Gen 9 makes Gen 5 powercreep look paltry, and I have to imagine the work cut out for a Gen 13 Council.

Edit: We live in a Garchompless OU, anything can happen.
 
To not completely go against Mimikyu's sentiment before, it does indirectly ask a very interesting question imo. That being, if the amount of Pokemon which we could tow this line of both not ubers worthy but still sorta broken checks broken reaches the usual population of an OU tier, what IS wrong with these, let's say 30-40 Pokemon checking eachother in kinda toxic ways? Or I guess in other words, being the new standard of OU. Genuinely curious here as there is a sentiment that "this gens UU is last gens OU", and to that, why not embrace it? I can only see Gamefreak going harder on powercreep rather than pumping the breaks on it, so this will only become harder to deal with before it becomes easier.

I suppose this sort of depends on whether you view Ubers as a banlist or a tier of its own, but I think that history is only showing that more things proportionately end up in users each gen (roughly), so it being looked at as a banlist metagame may be something which is becoming outdated. Curious what anyone else thinks here.

This encapsulates how I've been feeling for a long time, but lately I've begun to push back on it.

Let's say 20-30 mons get banned from OU, enough to form a tier. It would be just a matter of naming, UUbers and OU or a new OU and new UU (everything shifting down a peg). However, it is true that Ubers was initially conceived as a banlist, and while that doesnt mean it's not a meta of its own, I sorta agree with that spirit.

It's not the same balancing around Tusk and Dozo and Manaphy and Garg, who have different dynamics between each other, than to balance around Flutter Mane or Iron Bundle. In any tier FM is in, there's going to be sooo many speed tie wars. So many mons banned to Ubers have perfect coverage. Most mons are offensively oriented. Many mons are minmaxed. We talk a lot about "this beats that" but in the end it is a whole team which contributes in OU. With Flutter Mane and the like, I feel like it would be hard to justify not running it bc it is so much better than everything else.
 
I wouldn’t be opposed to the council imposing drastic action just to see what the tier would look like while we have the time. I’m talking about banning tera, implementing tera preview, banning ghold, or releasing darkrai. Not that I necessarily support any of these, but it’d be cool to get a glimpse into how the meta may change.

This is what I mean, in a few weeks everything is turning upside down, why not take advantage and be a bit more flexible and fast with the quickbans just to see how everything works out and give more excitement and change to the tier?

I mean, you cant go wrong by banning those two... they have quite a lot of support and have the meta in a chokehold.

On another note, i agree with the feeling that its just a matter of time, specially with this gens powercreep until UUbers solidifies as new tier, could be fun, pretty much OU + all the brokens but not sooo broken
 
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This encapsulates how I've been feeling for a long time, but lately I've begun to push back on it.

Let's say 20-30 mons get banned from OU, enough to form a tier. It would be just a matter of naming, UUbers and OU or a new OU and new UU (everything shifting down a peg). However, it is true that Ubers was initially conceived as a banlist, and while that doesnt mean it's not a meta of its own, I sorta agree with that spirit.

It's not the same balancing around Tusk and Dozo and Manaphy and Garg, who have different dynamics between each other, than to balance around Flutter Mane or Iron Bundle. In any tier FM is in, there's going to be sooo many speed tie wars. So many mons banned to Ubers have perfect coverage. Most mons are offensively oriented. Many mons are minmaxed. We talk a lot about "this beats that" but in the end it is a whole team which contributes in OU. With Flutter Mane and the like, I feel like it would be hard to justify not running it bc it is so much better than everything else.
That's pretty fair actually. I do hope UUBers becomes popular enough to gain some real traction, as I can see generations to come needing to ban a solid half tiers worth of new Pokemon each in their own right, to where the banlist makes up like 10% of our total monsters rather than 2/151. It feels like the best compromise between Gamefreaks intent to ramp things up, our intent to keep some semblance of balance, and the "overcrowding" of useless ubers.

Thinking on it, what's the smallest OU we've had since like ADV? We're hovering around 40ish right now, right?
 
That's pretty fair actually. I do hope UUBers becomes popular enough to gain some real traction, as I can see generations to come needing to ban a solid half tiers worth of new Pokemon each in their own right, to where the banlist makes up like 10% of our total monsters rather than 2/151. It feels like the best compromise between Gamefreaks intent to ramp things up, our intent to keep some semblance of balance, and the "overcrowding" of useless ubers.

Thinking on it, what's the smallest OU we've had since like ADV? We're hovering around 40ish right now, right?

I feel like it's sort of unevitable that UUbers becomes a real thing some day, just by popular demand. However, the tiering principles have to be vastly different from OU, as Ubers currently is. The focus in OU is and always should be balanced tiering, the guys above can have whatever they need.

I watched a UUbers vid some time ago and thought it seemed v interesting, dude said sth like there are barely any grounds in UUb so the Tusk of the tier is Mag, which sounds interesting to say the least
 
I Hope that UUBER will never exist, imo it’s a nonsense because it will be just a unbalanced OU, and remind that a tier need : a room on PS (except OM), a solid community, a council, a tier leader, a forum here, a tier leader, and codage on PS.

And for now, imo Gholdengo should have a action from the council only after DLC 2, the Second DLC is in only ~3 weeks, and a suspect + community survey, will not be good because the meta post cheeseboyban will be too short
And the only drop from Uber I would see is.. regielki, I’ll explain why later
 
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