Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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I think people are focusing too much on the "broken checks broken" part of Mimikyu's argument, but not the main crux, which is to slow down the rate of bans. Certain mons are gonna warp the tier the first week after x or y mon gets banned, but might not be an issue over time. The best examples are Garg and Walking Wake, which had meta warping effects early on, but became more managable after people began figuring out counterplay. And a good chunk of the banlist brings valuable qualities to the metagame. Baxcalibur IMO was pretty obviously broken, but its Ice STAB and priority Ice Shard was useful in keeping various Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Sneasler, etc. in check. Urshifu-RS kept Kingambit in check while not having an egregious speed tier. Volcarona kept the likes of Gholdengo and Kingambit in check, etc. Banning certain Pokemon will lead to other Pokemon getting better in the immediate aftermath and may make them seem obviously broken when they are in fact not.

Bear in mind that I'm not arguing that all the banned Pokemon had a positive impact. Its pretty difficult to defend a Pokemon like Ogerpon Heartflame, Chi-Yu, or Annihilape, which many teams had very limited to no options in dealing with. Most of the bans we have had are justified, but I'd argue some were not neccessary. Volcarona's ban stands to me as the clearest example of this, where yes, it would be annoying to deal with but it is arguably not overbearing, espicially now with Tera Water Waterpon further limiting it. Having it around would certainly be nice to deal with Pokemon that players are/were complaining about, like Iron Valiant, Rillaboom, and Gholdengo.

In fairness, this is a very delicate thing to manage & my opinion tends to flip-flop on this alot about how much time it should take for certain bans to take place. I personally didn't like how the Tera suspect took place while Annihilape and Chi-Yu were in the tier given how much they warped the metagame, and I was initially more positive of the Volcarona ban, so take this all with a grain of Salt.
 
I Hope that UUBER will never exist, imo it’s a nonsense because it will be just a unbalanced OU, and remind that a tier need : a room on PS (except OM), a solid community, a council, a tier leader, a forum here, a tier leader, and codage on PS.
highly doubt itll ever become adopted as an official format due to many factors at play but from what ive played and witnessed of the uubers solomod its not nearly as much as of an unplayable clusterfuck as youd expect and calling it just an "unbalanced ou" just by virtue of having mons too good for ou is kinda ignorant tbh.

edit: nvm lmao
 
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I feel like it's sort of unevitable that UUbers becomes a real thing some day, just by popular demand. However, the tiering principles have to be vastly different from OU, as Ubers currently is. The focus in OU is and always should be balanced tiering, the guys above can have whatever they need.
are we talking about uubers, or are we talking about oubl? the concepts are different and often get confused. oubl is "ou plus all the pokemon that were banned from ou", uubers is "a meta that only excludes everything above 4.whatever% usage in ubers". the main differences between them:

oubl can never be a thing because it's impossible to balance by nature. think about it: if you started with only the box legendaries banned (plus the obvious historical ubers like magearna and spectrier), you'd have to suffer through a meta with flutter mane, chi-yu, shed tail, palafin, three mons with last respects, all of the ludicrously broken stuff that almost everyone agrees should stay gone. it would be wildly unbalanced to the point of near-unplayability. so what do you do? if you ban one thing, there will still be a bunch of broken things popping up, and you'll have to ban those too, and then the next broken things that pop up after that and so on and so on until, whoops, turns out you just have the exact same banlist as ou and the meta no longer serves any purpose in existing. so what if you go the other route and ban nothing? well, we already saw the results with freedom cup: the meta hypercentralizes around the most broken things, stagnates, and dies within months. all right, what if we do ban things, but we take a less aggressive approach than regular ou and only ban the most obviously broken things? well, let's see, then you'd only have to ban flutter mane, last respects, palafin, iron bundle, chi-yu, shed tail, annihilape, espathra, chien-pao, baxcalibur, firepon, hey wait a minute we have 11 bans now, this is defeating the point of having a banlist tier and the tier is unbalanced, we have the worst of both worlds. ok, so maybe just ban tera? wait, now you've just created a completely separate meta with a different premise. no matter how you slice it, you just can't win with a tier like this

uubers, on the other hand, is a much more interesting concept. aside from most of the box-legendary ubers, some ou-level mons would be disallowed because of their high usage in ubers—based on last month's usage stats, :skeledirge::ting-lu::ribombee::clodsire::iron treads::glimmora::great tusk::toxapex::kingambit::corviknight::hatterene::dondozo: wouldn't be in this meta. we'd also have a lot of traditionally ubers-level pokemon allowed, like skymin, dialga and palkia (both their regular and origin forms), and a lot of arceus forms. now, i think this meta would likely be very heavily centralized around arceus forms, but i think it would be different enough from any existing meta to be worth trying out, especially because you could still, in theory, ban things from it if they turned out too strong. this is a meta i would be interested in seeing and would support if it were officially proposed, although discussing it here is still not relevant because it's an ubers-based tier so we should be asking the people in charge of ubers for it (which right now is fc, aberforth, koraidon, and miraidon)
 
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Mimikyu Stardust's argument has a few pieces to it -- some I agree with and some that I do not.

Mimikyu seems to indicate that we should take more time between surveys and suspects. Personally, I agree with this and think that the cadence of our process is dictated by circumstances, which will become more welcoming and lax in the future.

We have moved at a breakneck pace during the DLC metagame since we had limited time and made a commitment to do our best to balance the tier, but we only had a couple of months to do what we would like to do across a couple years throughout a generation. We will surely have more hurdles in the future, but with more time to navigate it, I am hopeful we can use a week or two extra between surveys and suspects to let things settle and let perception shift. The survey model was intended for every 4-6 weeks, not every 2, after all.

Mimikyu seems to indicate we should handle bans more cautiously and maybe even resconsider our approach to banlists/early bans. Personally, I am content with the status quo there.

I think the way we handle releases has mostly been good aside from the Volcarona moment, which we have since pivoted away from and adjusted our policy accordingly. When there is an influx of things going on, we are aggressive and data oriented, which allows for our metagames to at least become playable, even if not good, at a respectable pace. The metagame this Summer during WCOP, OLT, and the July-August period was regarded as good by most, surveys backed this, and this was only becuase we got through the initial phases while removing the biggest broken outliers (while letting things like Zama and Gambit go to suspect). I think that we will not have to worry as much about this once DLC2 clears, too, which is refreshing.
 
Here is my personal opinion on the ban/unban topics close to DLC2 drop :

I think whatever we want to do with Gholdengo /Kingambit does not matter in the slightest. What I mean is that whatever the support from community, council, whether we ban them, suspect them, let them as is, every single scenario is actually fine as it will have literally no impact (and I do not think it will set a precedent as it is a very specific situation).

I kind of understand Mimikyu point of view even if I wouldn't have said it this way. I think broken should definitely never check broken. However, Pokemon like Iron Hands were broken in UU, but shit in OU because OU pokemon (which are broken for UU) check it. In a sense, we could say that broken pokemon of OU check the broken pokemon of UU. I am aware this is not exactly the same because there is a difference between a banlist and tier by usage but the idea is here : there is no "broken pokemon" by definition (except maybe Mega Rayquaza? Lol), pokemon are only broken according to the environment it is in. "Broken checks broken" is always an invalid argument to prevent some broken things to be banned but I think it should not prevent a new environment to be tested. Even things like tera is actually creating a totally different environment and totally change the brokenness of many pokemon.

So in the logic I just stated, in my ideal world, I would love to see every single Pokemon that have been banned from SV OU return back in it, adding may be one or two more Uber that we think are fine like Darkrai.
I am aware that would lead to a monstruosity but DLC After DLC environment had been constantly changing and it will be the last time it will change (if I am correct ?) so it would be the best time to virtually "start from scratch" with tools that have been deemed broken in a pretty old environment. However I would still keep broken moves like shed tail and last respects banned because they are uncompetitive by essence (just like baton pass).

Then I would try to let this monstruosity settle for 1 month (yes I know this is huge for a meta like this with so much broken things) but I think it would benefit the tier to let things settle a little bit before taking actions (yes it will settle, probably around a really centralised meta but it will).
After 1 month there would be a Survey and every pokemon that would be higher than 4 on this survey should be voted for a quickban. If there is no 4 or higher, the pokemon highest on the survey with more than 3,5 would be suspect tested.

Once the result is on (either quickbans or suspect result), we should let the meta settle for a certain period of time :
- If more than 2 Pokémon were quickbanned (so at least 3), wait 1 month because it is close enough to a "new environment"
-If one or two Pokemon has been quickbanned or a suspect test has been conducted and no other Pokemon has received enough support for a suspect, wait 1 month before next survey
-If one or two Pokemon has been quickbanned or a suspect test has been conducted and at least 1 pokemon had received enough support for suspect (either through council vote or score higher than 3,5 on the survey), let the meta settle for 2 more weeks and then conduct a new survey
-If no pokemon has been quickbanned or received enough support to be suspect tested, congratulations you've certainly almost reached a stable metagame. You could may be start lowering the standard for a Pokemon to be suspected tested (personally I would never go lower than 3,25 but that is a totally subjective take).

You just have to repeat the previous planning as many times as needed (and as possible). This would make for metagame that is absolutely driven by community as this seems to be the master word of this gen, but not overreactive. People will always have things to complain about and being "too much" driven by community can sometimes come as a drawback and too rushed. This way you could always justify your position by being strictly sticking to the planning without having to justify yourself every time.
Of course numbers could be a little bit different but this is the main idea.

Now this is my ideal way of doing things but I know this will never happen because in a sense this would mean every thing we've done so far would have been for nothing. But sometimes that's how things goes. No matter the decision things will never be perfect and can only satisfy a certain vision of your ideal metagame and a certain vision of the timeline you envision.
 
I Hope that UUBER will never exist, imo it’s a nonsense because it will be just a unbalanced OU, and remind that a tier need : a room on PS (except OM), a solid community, a council, a tier leader, a forum here, a tier leader, and codage on PS.
This is a hilariously timed post given UUbers just became a recognized unofficial metagame on showdown along with ZU, NFE, etc.
 
I Hope that UUBER will never exist, imo it’s a nonsense because it will be just a unbalanced OU, and remind that a tier need : a room on PS (except OM), a solid community, a council, a tier leader, a forum here, a tier leader, and codage on PS.

And for now, imo Gholdengo should have a action from the council only after DLC 2, the Second DLC is in only ~3 weeks, and a suspect + community survey, will not be good because the meta post cheeseboyban will be too short
And the only drop from Uber I would see is.. regielki, I’ll explain why later
highly doubt itll ever become adopted as an official format due to many variables at play but from what ive played and witnessed of the uubers solomod its not nearly as much as of an unplayable clusterfuck as youd expect and calling it just an "unbalanced ou" just by virtue of having mons too good for ou is kinda ignorant tbh.
This is a hilariously timed post given UUbers just became a recognized unofficial metagame on showdown along with ZU, NFE, etc.
LOL..
for avoid a 1liner, this « metagame » will be a ou but unbalanced, won’t explain exactly why because I have others things to do. But seeing a tier with only broken check broken….. without me :)
Edit: I’m responding to somebodyuknow2
 
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Remember this tier now exists, remember now that we have a broken check broken only as a tier now…
 
are we talking about uubers, or are we talking about oubl? the concepts are different and often get confused. oubl is "ou plus all the pokemon that were banned from ou", uubers is "a meta that only excludes everything above 4.whatever% usage in ubers". the main differences between them:

oubl can never be a thing because it's impossible to balance by nature. think about it: if you started with only the box legendaries banned (plus the obvious historical ubers like magearna and spectrier), you'd have to suffer through a meta with flutter mane, chi-yu, shed tail, palafin, three mons with last respects, all of the ludicrously broken stuff that almost everyone agrees should stay gone. it would be wildly unbalanced to the point of near-unplayability. so what do you do? if you ban one thing, there will still be a bunch of broken things popping up, and you'll have to ban those too, and then the next broken things that pop up after that and so on and so on until, whoops, turns out you just have the exact same banlist as ou and the meta no longer serves any purpose in existing. so what if you go the other route and ban nothing? well, we already saw the results with freedom cup: the meta hypercentralizes around the most broken things, stagnates, and dies within months. all right, what if we do ban things, but we take a less aggressive approach than regular ou and only ban the most obviously broken things? well, let's see, then you'd only have to ban flutter mane, last respects, palafin, iron bundle, chi-yu, shed tail, annihilape, espathra, chien-pao, baxcalibur, firepon, hey wait a minute we have 11 bans now, this is defeating the point of having a banlist tier and the tier is unbalanced, we have the worst of both worlds. ok, so maybe just ban tera? wait, now you've just created a completely separate meta with a different premise. no matter how you slice it, you just can't win with a tier like this

uubers, on the other hand, is a much more interesting concept. aside from most of the box-legendary ubers, some ou-level mons would be disallowed because of their high usage in ubers—based on last month's usage stats, :skeledirge::ting-lu::ribombee::clodsire::iron treads::glimmora::great tusk::toxapex::kingambit::corviknight::hatterene::dondozo: wouldn't be in this meta. we'd also have a lot of traditionally ubers-level pokemon allowed, like skymin, dialga and palkia (both their regular and origin forms), and a lot of arceus forms. now, i think this meta would likely be very heavily centralized around arceus forms, but i think it would be different enough from any existing meta to be worth trying out, especially because you could still, in theory, ban things from it if they turned out too strong. this is a meta i would be interested in seeing and would support if it were officially proposed, although discussing it here is still not relevant because it's an ubers-based tier so we should be asking the people in charge of ubers for it (which right now is fc, aberforth, koraidon, and miraidon)

You bring some interesting points here, and after seeing some vids on the issue I feel like the second option is the way to go. Funnily enough Skymin is already banned so lol
 
I reached top 33 on the uubers ladder by trapping magearnas with my specially defensive iron press magnezone to get a free turn of set up if it got volt switch or use the magearna as set up fodder, also ursaluna bloodmoon with shed tail is pretty chill
Why the hell is that RU mon banned?
you mean nu, i saw a very small one on my enemies team while playing nu yesterday
 
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View attachment 573883 Remember this tier now exists, remember now that we have a broken check broken only as a tier now…
UUbers is a true utopia of a tier that OU could learn a thing or two from. Players such as myself can live out our wildest dreams of allowing Pokemon like Arceus-Bug and Giratina-A in an OU power level environment, all while cutting out the unhealthy defensive presences that limit creativity and freedom within the tier. There is no Dondozo, Corviknight, or Skeledirge infinetly walling your DD Dragonite, no more Toxapex to prevent your from making progress, no Ting-Lu to setup 50 hazards in your face and whirlwind you away, and no Great Tusk or Iron Treads to undo the hard work of laying out hazards. Sadly no Kingambit, but no tier is perfect. Widely popular mechanics that were unfortunately banned such as Shed tail + Shadow Tag, and old friends such as Baxcalibur and Volcarona can finally find a home where they are great again.

OU's player count may be in trouble if top level players begin picking this tier up...
 
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Why the hell is that RU mon banned?
uubers is based on usage which means a good chunk of ou mons arent allowed (funny side effect of that is ppl running cutiefly to replace ribombee). this is the ou thread and not a uubers thread so lets maybe shift the topic a bit lol
There is no Dondozo, Corviknight, or Skeledirge infinetly walling your DD Dragonite, no more Toxapex to prevent your from making progress, no Ting-Lu to setup 50 hazards in your face and whirlwind you away, and no Great Tusk or Iron Treads to undo the hard work of laying out hazards.
a world without stall...just like game freak envisioned
 
Funnily enough Skymin is already banned so lol
honestly, skymin is banworthy in any remotely balanced competitive environment because it's an rngmon and uncompetitive by nature. i probably shouldn't even have mentioned it lmao
Why the hell is that RU mon banned?
speaking of ru, ru serious? hatterene has been ou since release and for good reason
(funny side effect of that is ppl running cutiefly to replace ribombee)
that's actually fucking hilarious but i really have to wonder why they're not running, like, leavanny or something instead

anyway, as interesting as this conversation is, let's talk about ou
 
I'm a bit tired, but three things:

1) UUbers is a thriving tier due entirely to not trying to be OUBL, which is a concept that has been tried - and failed - repeatedly. Bravo to the folks who organized it, and anyone who wants to play with the bad Ubers should give it a spin.

2) Bad data is worse than no data, which is why I've supported a two week post-action minimum for 'ending' metagames like we have now. Banning Gholdengo via suspect will give us bad data, because Gholdengo especially is a cornerstone of the tier - not only will the assorted Defoggers get spammed, but it's the primary defensive steel and one of only three with instant recovery. Everything will be a clusterfluffle in that one week before DLC2.

3) I stan Maushold.

Maushold-Four @ Wide Lens
Ability: Friend Guard
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
- Tidy Up

Maushold brings three things to the table: hazard removal that Gholdengo can't block, a fast Encore, and a 300 BP STAB move to function as a sweeper once its checks are gone. It offers no defensive utility outside the fast Encore, which more splashable mons (most notably Iron Valiant) can also provide, and so despite being OU-viable its usage is very low.

That means teams aren't preparing for the family, especially if you're planning to be sneaky and underhanded as a Dark type. Introducing Sicilian Maushold, bringing the family into The Family.

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 320-378 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Backed by Tidy Up and Tera Dark, Maushold's Bite becomes an engine of ghost destruction, OHKOing every OU-viable ghost except Sinistcha and Skeledirge:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 204-242 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Maushold: 118-141 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Of course, Skeledirge is actually going to click Wisp, and if you stay in he'll alternate Slack Off and Torch Song. This is not a matchup where you're doing more than clearing hazards and forcing Skeledirge in.

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 230-272 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Maushold: 127-151 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

Sinistcha is just barely 2HKO'd on minimum damage Bite rolls and a maximum Matcha Gotcha roll.

That's not the only advantage to Tera Dark, however - if kept in surprise, it helps maul the other most common steel in the tier:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 210-260 (61.5 - 76.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Maushold: 129-153 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO

Comfortably surviving Kingambit's Sucker Punch, even if it switched into a three stack of Spikes and facing a last mon Kingambit, allows you to follow up with an Encore and bring something else in safely, or else Kingambit switches out and you can try to maul the next contender.

A +1 Maushold really needs to be fended off through priority or a normal resist; Population Bomb is simply too powerful for pure bulk to suffice:

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 310-370 (71.4 - 85.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 420-510 (81.7 - 99.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO (!!!)

So how do the other Normal resists fare? It varies:

Wall of Calcs said:
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 180-210 (45.1 - 52.6%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 222-262 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rocky Helmet is ~50% usage, Body Press is ~60%. This is one matchup where the normal Tera Ghost is vastly superior, since you can bypass Body Press and have much better odds.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 240-290 (74.3 - 89.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Maushold: 207-244 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage

Heatran wins, but takes enough damage in the process to lose most of its defensive value.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 300-360 (99.6 - 119.6%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Rock Ogerpon-Cornerstone-Tera: 200-240 (66.4 - 79.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Cornerstone Mask Ogerpon-Cornerstone Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 297-351 (102.7 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This comes down to whether the opponent has committed their tera elsewhere already.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 290-340 (77.9 - 91.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Empoleon Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Maushold: 135-159 (46.7 - 55%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

Empoleon doesn't do enough damage back to matter.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Goodra-Hisui: 250-300 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ SpA Goodra-Hisui Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Maushold: 262-309 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Goodra-H can eat a Population Bomb and kill back, but it's a setup opportunity for whatever you bring in next, and it's vanishingly rare in OU to begin with.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 220-270 (68.5 - 84.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 198-234 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 198-234 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes

Treads has a chance to kill if Maushold switched into full hazards, and will leave you extremely low otherwise.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 250-300 (73.5 - 88.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 253-298 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

You're going to be taking hazard damage, so banded Scizor can use U-turn to kill you, and any set will kill with Close Combat.

Ideal teammates would be Knock Off providers to remove Rocky Helmets and anything that appreciates shared checks being smashed in the face. Tidy Up leaves screens intact, so you can run the mice on a screens team and become an unholy sweeper, because +2 Maushold fears only Rocky Helmet, Skeledirge, and Moltres.
 
I'm a bit tired, but three things:

1) UUbers is a thriving tier due entirely to not trying to be OUBL, which is a concept that has been tried - and failed - repeatedly. Bravo to the folks who organized it, and anyone who wants to play with the bad Ubers should give it a spin.

2) Bad data is worse than no data, which is why I've supported a two week post-action minimum for 'ending' metagames like we have now. Banning Gholdengo via suspect will give us bad data, because Gholdengo especially is a cornerstone of the tier - not only will the assorted Defoggers get spammed, but it's the primary defensive steel and one of only three with instant recovery. Everything will be a clusterfluffle in that one week before DLC2.

3) I stan Maushold.

Maushold-Four @ Wide Lens
Ability: Friend Guard
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
- Tidy Up

Maushold brings three things to the table: hazard removal that Gholdengo can't block, a fast Encore, and a 300 BP STAB move to function as a sweeper once its checks are gone. It offers no defensive utility outside the fast Encore, which more splashable mons (most notably Iron Valiant) can also provide, and so despite being OU-viable its usage is very low.

That means teams aren't preparing for the family, especially if you're planning to be sneaky and underhanded as a Dark type. Introducing Sicilian Maushold, bringing the family into The Family.

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 320-378 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Backed by Tidy Up and Tera Dark, Maushold's Bite becomes an engine of ghost destruction, OHKOing every OU-viable ghost except Sinistcha and Skeledirge:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 204-242 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Maushold: 118-141 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Of course, Skeledirge is actually going to click Wisp, and if you stay in he'll alternate Slack Off and Torch Song. This is not a matchup where you're doing more than clearing hazards and forcing Skeledirge in.

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 230-272 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Maushold: 127-151 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

Sinistcha is just barely 2HKO'd on minimum damage Bite rolls and a maximum Matcha Gotcha roll.

That's not the only advantage to Tera Dark, however - if kept in surprise, it helps maul the other most common steel in the tier:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 210-260 (61.5 - 76.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Maushold: 129-153 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO

Comfortably surviving Kingambit's Sucker Punch, even if it switched into a three stack of Spikes and facing a last mon Kingambit, allows you to follow up with an Encore and bring something else in safely, or else Kingambit switches out and you can try to maul the next contender.

A +1 Maushold really needs to be fended off through priority or a normal resist; Population Bomb is simply too powerful for pure bulk to suffice:

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 310-370 (71.4 - 85.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 420-510 (81.7 - 99.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO (!!!)

So how do the other Normal resists fare? It varies:



Ideal teammates would be Knock Off providers to remove Rocky Helmets and anything that appreciates shared checks being smashed in the face. Tidy Up leaves screens intact, so you can run the mice on a screens team and become an unholy sweeper, because +2 Maushold fears only Rocky Helmet, Skeledirge, and Moltres.
maushold-3 is far superior, maushold-4 is overratted
EE300CBF-FEA5-4514-9E3B-E4EBC8C952AB.png

oh come on, i spent way too much time on this drawing for 3 reacts
 
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I'm a bit tired, but three things:

1) UUbers is a thriving tier due entirely to not trying to be OUBL, which is a concept that has been tried - and failed - repeatedly. Bravo to the folks who organized it, and anyone who wants to play with the bad Ubers should give it a spin.

2) Bad data is worse than no data, which is why I've supported a two week post-action minimum for 'ending' metagames like we have now. Banning Gholdengo via suspect will give us bad data, because Gholdengo especially is a cornerstone of the tier - not only will the assorted Defoggers get spammed, but it's the primary defensive steel and one of only three with instant recovery. Everything will be a clusterfluffle in that one week before DLC2.

3) I stan Maushold.

Maushold-Four @ Wide Lens
Ability: Friend Guard
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
- Tidy Up

Maushold brings three things to the table: hazard removal that Gholdengo can't block, a fast Encore, and a 300 BP STAB move to function as a sweeper once its checks are gone. It offers no defensive utility outside the fast Encore, which more splashable mons (most notably Iron Valiant) can also provide, and so despite being OU-viable its usage is very low.

That means teams aren't preparing for the family, especially if you're planning to be sneaky and underhanded as a Dark type. Introducing Sicilian Maushold, bringing the family into The Family.

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 320-378 (101.5 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Backed by Tidy Up and Tera Dark, Maushold's Bite becomes an engine of ghost destruction, OHKOing every OU-viable ghost except Sinistcha and Skeledirge:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 204-242 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Maushold: 118-141 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Of course, Skeledirge is actually going to click Wisp, and if you stay in he'll alternate Slack Off and Torch Song. This is not a matchup where you're doing more than clearing hazards and forcing Skeledirge in.

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Bite vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 230-272 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Sinistcha Matcha Gotcha vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Maushold: 127-151 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

Sinistcha is just barely 2HKO'd on minimum damage Bite rolls and a maximum Matcha Gotcha roll.

That's not the only advantage to Tera Dark, however - if kept in surprise, it helps maul the other most common steel in the tier:

+1 252 Atk Technician Tera Dark Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 210-260 (61.5 - 76.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Maushold: 129-153 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO

Comfortably surviving Kingambit's Sucker Punch, even if it switched into a three stack of Spikes and facing a last mon Kingambit, allows you to follow up with an Encore and bring something else in safely, or else Kingambit switches out and you can try to maul the next contender.

A +1 Maushold really needs to be fended off through priority or a normal resist; Population Bomb is simply too powerful for pure bulk to suffice:

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 310-370 (71.4 - 85.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 420-510 (81.7 - 99.2%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO (!!!)

So how do the other Normal resists fare? It varies:



Ideal teammates would be Knock Off providers to remove Rocky Helmets and anything that appreciates shared checks being smashed in the face. Tidy Up leaves screens intact, so you can run the mice on a screens team and become an unholy sweeper, because +2 Maushold fears only Rocky Helmet, Skeledirge, and Moltres.
Tera Dark seems nice, and I’ve saw a lot of Tera Ghost especially for dnite espeed, but what about Tera Fire?

First off, even though you are sacrificing the ability to kill Gholdengo in one hit, it wont matter much if Gholdengo cannot touch you to begin with. Gholdengo isnt going to click Shadow Ball against a normal type, so it will just click Make It Rain. With Tera Fire, you resist Make It Rain which allows you to 2HKO it with bite (or even set up again!)

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fire Maushold: 126-148 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

-1 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fire Maushold: 112-133 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Technician Tera Fire Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (90.1 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

With a bit of chip from spikes or whatnot, +2 is an OHKO. The same goes for tusk, in which Tera Fire worsens the matchup against it.

+2 252 Atk Technician Tera Fire Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 420-490 (96.7 - 112.9%) -- approx. 62.5% chance to OHKO

Also talking about one of your points mentioned before, Tera Fire blocks Will-O-Wisp from Skeledirge, allowing it to bite repeatedly without problem, fishing for a flinch/taking all of Skeledirge’s Slack Offs. Maushold is an extremely fun mon to work with, and Tidy Up is unironically a great tool in this meta
 
I have observed an increased trend mentioning Uubers in this thread. I request the council to forbid any Uubers related discussion here unless there is relevant meta trend that can be mentioned that's useful for OU. No more single line nonsen posts whining about
too many bans in OU, thus UUbers need to be official
If Uubers has to become an official meta, this forum thread is not the place for that discussion.

Not that this is a jab at people who like Uubers, it's a fun format but this is not the right place for its advocacy.
 
I have observed an increased trend mentioning Uubers in this thread. I request the council to forbid any Uubers related discussion here unless there is relevant meta trend that can be mentioned that's useful for OU. No more single line nonsen posts whining about If Uubers has to become an official meta, this forum thread is not the place for that discussion.

Not that this is a jab at people who like Uubers, it's a fun format but this is not the right place for its advocacy.

It's being talked about because the big news for the day is Smogon "officially" recognizing UUbers, and giving it an OM forum and associated Showdown ladder. It's no longer people advocating for it -- it's a thing that you can go and play, on showdown, right now! Given that this thread winds up being a general catch-all for things that involve OU pokemon, it's not surprising people are excited.

IMO, just give it a day, and enjoy a legitimately positive development in the future of tiering. Arceus willing, the day isn't far off where it'll be big enough for people to stop advocating for the release of C and D tier Ubers to OU, "just to see what will happen".
 
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