Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[NotDaProGamer]

So it was shit coz it was outclassed at what it wanted to do so badly it ended up in uu. lol.

yes, it was in UU. Read the one you literally quoted and you'll find the words 'by broken Baxcalibur'. Is it such a crime to be worse than a mon who is BROKEN, it literally says so in the thing you quoted, and which is an Ubers mon now? Is it a crime for being worse than uh, uh, I did a command random Uber and it came up with Kyruem-Black. Is it a crime for Baxcalibur to be outclassed by Kyruem-Black? Then why is Moon 'shit' for being worse then Bax?

Edit to reply to the above post, posted while I was writing this.

i was hopeful that weavile would be able to work in OU after getting triple axel back, but meowscarada got triple axel too and so now I don't really see what weavile could do that meow can't, 10 higher base attack and 2 higher base speed just doesn't seem like enough to compensate for the rocks weakness + lack of u-turn

Umm, STAB? 10 higher attack doesn't matter when 's Triple Axel is always going to be stronker, due to a 1.5x boost that needs to tera to accomplish while maintains STAB upon tera.

Triple edit! (funny to me cause I just talked about triple axel)

real talk, why did they not buff dark void back up now that sketch can't copy it anymore? it's no longer a threat to vgc at all since darkrai isn't legal there. seems like the only one really prejudiced against darkrai here is game freak itself

Game Freak gets PTSD every time restricted formats where all legendaries can play happen, even if it is still outclassed by the sussy shroom for sleep (and redirection) they have an attack of PTSD and begin to hyperventilate, muttering in their sleep: Dark void... ... Sleeping... Now I can't sleep...
What do they do when this happens? They see crying in the corner for not using its signature move or ability and perform the sign of warding against evil.

 

[YubelVT]

Umm, STAB? 10 higher attack doesn't matter when 's Triple Axel is always going to be stronker, due to a 1.5x boost that needs to tera to accomplish while maintains STAB upon tera.

Kid named Protean:

i was hopeful that weavile would be able to work in OU after getting triple axel back, but meowscarada got triple axel too and so now I don't really see what weavile could do that meow can't, 10 higher base attack and 2 higher base speed just doesn't seem like enough to compensate for the rocks weakness + lack of u-turn

ig it got upper hand to let it kinda check dragonite with 50/50s?

also adamant scarf meowscarada seems like it could be a decent answer to deoxys-s, but on that note another niche weavile may have over meowscarada is that adamant tera triple axel will ohko deoxys-s through sash 87.5% of the time, but is it really worth wasting tera and running an otherwise outclassed mon for one matchup?

I think Meowscarada and Weavile do different things, especially with a different stab combo (despite meowscarada effectively having stab on everything). Weavile having priority that isn't sucker punch is a big thing actually and it's not as easily read as a choiced attacker which is also a boon, because you can easily bluff band with it (if you somehow win the hazard war lmao)

 

[Pierpat]

Dude was so shit that at one point the guy ended up in UU.

Even while in UU it was still being used in actual tournaments and considered good by top players, ladder usage isn't everything.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Priority Utility Phaser Flygon

Flygon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression​

You had me at tera bug first impression

 

[MrE]

yes, it was in UU. Read the one you literally quoted and you'll find the words 'by broken Baxcalibur'. Is it such a crime to be worse than a mon who is BROKEN, it literally says so in the thing you quoted, and which is an Ubers mon now? Is it a crime for being worse than uh, uh, I did a command random Uber and it came up with Kyruem-Black. Is it a crime for Baxcalibur to be outclassed by Kyruem-Black? Then why is Moon 'shit' for being worse then Bax?

Edit to reply to the above post, posted while I was writing this.

Umm, STAB? 10 higher attack doesn't matter when 's Triple Axel is always going to be stronker, due to a 1.5x boost that needs to tera to accomplish while maintains STAB upon tera.

Triple edit! (funny to me cause I just talked about triple axel)

Game Freak gets PTSD every time restricted formats where all legendaries can play happen, even if it is still outclassed by the sussy shroom for sleep (and redirection) they have an attack of PTSD and begin to hyperventilate, muttering in their sleep: Dark void... ... Sleeping... Now I can't sleep...
What do they do when this happens? They see crying in the corner for not using its signature move or ability and perform the sign of warding against evil.

Bax wasn't broken before it got scale shot and Atales returned.

 

[Avira]

Baxcalibur absolutely was broken even before it got Scale Shot. The only reason it didn't get a suspect was because we ran out of time due to the Teal Mask being on the horizon.

 

[Heatranator]

Bax wasn't broken before it got scale shot and Atales returned.

Maybe not, but it was very close to being broken. Like, if we had 2 more months of the metagame, Bax would have gotten banned.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Bax wasn't broken before it got scale shot and Atales returned.

bax was 100% broken pre-dlc and i recall that finch even said it would have been the next focus after the gambit suspect if there'd been time. that's a large part of the reason that action was taken as quickly as it was

 

[Cuddly]

Hot Take: Bax didn’t need Scale Shot. Scale Shot only added more counterplay to Baxcalibur if you were using it as its speed control could be gimped with Fairies, your speed/attack boosts would be seperate, priority was made stronger against you, and Knock Off significantly weakened the power of your Dragon STAB when you had Glave Rush.
What really pushed Bax over the edge was Snow and Aurora Veil. You get x3 Def and x2 SpD for several turn to do what ever you want.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Bax wasn't broken before it got scale shot and Atales returned.

That's debatable, there were definitely discussions around Bax being had before those dropped, during the tail end of HOME a lot of players were pretty fed up with it. Those buffs definitely made it more cut and dry however

 

[pika pal]

Bax wasn't broken before it got scale shot and Atales returned.

Baxcalibur even before Scale Shot was still extremely powerful, what Glaive Rush and a Burn Immunity does to a Dragon Dancer. People were already heavily pushing for a Suspect. The DLC was just when it got buff enough that it became an immediate easy Quickban instead of just a subject for tiering action.

More to the point, Baxcalibur doesn't have to be Ubers banworthy in order to exert an influence on the OU tier and present competition to other Pokemon, and I definitely don't presume someone foolhardy enough to argue Baxcalibur wasn't GOOD throughout its time in OU (its only usage struggle was when Chien-Pao was in the tier, which is kind of a "no duh" effect for an Ice type vs another Ice type with the best speed and Physical Breaking in the roster). Baxcalibur would have competed with Roaring Moon through much higher power (more ATK and higher BP STABs), an arguably better ability (Burn Immunity > ATK Protosynthesis unless you ran a dedicated Sun Team which had Give and Take), higher bulk to generate set up opportunities, and priority to compensate its speed gap. Roaring Moon also always had to contend with potential weakness stacking when some of the best mons in the tier shared its weaknesses to Ice, Fighting, and Fairy (Great Tusk, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, other Dragons like Pult, Hamurott, Walking Wake, Ting Lu), all of which cut into its usage even if not into its efficacy.


Unrelated to the above, have people been finding any particular Tera Type useful for Weavile? Given it's made of Paper I assume Same-Type STABs are as effective as they sound, but I'd also be curious if any other types have proven effective. On paper, Poison looks pretty useful to it, dropping its Fairy and Fighting Weaknesses for resists to the point it can take Specs Enamorus or Valiant Moonblast to avert revenge kills and even grab a SD off the former (the latter is faster after Booster Energy so this would mostly benefit it to get an extra lick in after a Sac or if it already has a SD boost to 2HKO with Ice Shard after a hazard). It's not bulky by any means but Weavile's special bulk sits around the Darkrai territory people talked about of being JUST enough to take a neutral or strong-resisted attack, and for a SD user with Priority that can be enough to make a push. The type is Sneasler at home but Maker's-Brand Sneasler was kind of OP so there are worse points of comparison.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Hot Take: Bax didn’t need Scale Shot. Scale Shot only added more counterplay to Baxcalibur if you were using it as its speed control could be gimped with Fairies, your speed/attack boosts would be seperate, priority was made stronger against you, and Knock Off significantly weakened the power of your Dragon STAB when you had Glave Rush.
What really pushed Bax over the edge was Snow and Aurora Veil. You get x3 Def and x2 SpD for several turn to do what ever you want.

Aurora veil also helped banded sets. Glaive Rush makes Bax vulnerable to double damage next turn, but Aurora Veil makes it regular 1x damage. So it becomes easier to spam Glaive Rush in snow without being revenge killed.

 

[658Greninja]

I’m just gonna drop this personal VR of my thoughts on the meta.

If anyone wants to make one themselves, here’s the templete.

https://tiermaker.com/create/scarlet-and-violet-indigo-disk-ou-tier-list-929297

To sum up a few of my thoughts in words.

Skarm and Ting-Lu have solidified themselves as the premier defensive core of the tier. Covering several meta threats and shitting out hazards.

Hatt matches up well with Deo-S and Gliscor/Ting-Lu/Skarm Spike Stacking while having useful utility in CM, Nuzzle, Eject Button shenanigans, and Healing Wish on HO/Sun. Skeledirge is an excellent anti-meta pick that checks a bunch of threats while being annoying to switch into itself. The additions of Serp, Latias, Iron Crown, and Volcarona have improved its relevance in the tier. It helps that the Balance structures Dirge often finds itself in have risen in popularity.

Blaziken appreciates the absence of Fini. Its old checks in Pex, Slowbro, Lando, and Chomp got hit by power creep or movepool nerfs. It can snowball out of control and has several options to mess with like 3Atks Protect, SD + Protect, Tera Flying Acro, etc. Darkrai is excellent at breaking Balance cores with either 3Atks Hypnosis or LO, also boasting an impressive speed tier and being solid speed control with a Scarf set. Weavile has excellent matchups into most of the top threats while providing offensive utility with Knock + Ice Shard.

Despite the presence of Gliscor, Garganacl remains an excellent wincon with Curse or ID. It also checks the new Gouging Fire while doing many of its old tricks. Latias as shown by players like Pinkacross, is a deadly wincon on HO teams and could also run the old classic Scarf Healing Wish set. Wogre took a huge hit in DLC2. New dragons, Serp, and the overall power level increase has put this Top 5 mon into the waiting room. It still does sport excellent utility with Knock, Encore, Spikes, and U-Turn.

Grimm is high up because it is the ultimate anti-Deo-S. Being able to deny it from doing..anything is huge. Ttar and Sand in general got a boost with Drill. Either SpD sets, Band, or AV. It can blanket check several mons in the tier while providing utility with Knock, SR, T-Wave, and Roar. More offensive variants can crack open holes, even with Tusk/Ting-Lu/Valiant in the tier.

Mid as hell rn. Dirge stonks are on the rise. Volcarona is back. Moon means it has to run Dgleam again. Outsped by the new Iron Boulder. Things may get better for it in the future, but it just seems like a UUBL mon rn. A fall from grace.

Cinccino is a niche alternative to Maus. Trading Population Bomb and Encore for Technician boosted T-Axel and Knock. Pert’s unique typing and access to Knock, SR, and Flip Turn gives it a small but viable niche in the tier.

Hippo can soft check Boulder, offensive Tusk, Gambit, 4atks Zama, and Gouging Fire while clicking rocks. Viable if you wanna run sand but are Tyranitarophobic. If it wasn’t passive as shit, I’d be considered at least B material. As long as Gambit/Ghold exist, Incineroar will have a niche, small as it is. It also completely walls Skeledirge and threatens with Knock while being a slow effective pivot with Parting Shot.

 

[StompyStomps]

Aren't there gonna be new Tera forms for Koraidon and Miraidon too? Since Terapagos-Stellar was practically Mega Rayquaza + Zygarde-100% I wonder if it'll push those two to Anything Goes.

No, TyoudenkiHou was the charge state for Electroc Shot
Whimsical Laser was the all out version of Fickle Beam
and TerastuShell (or whatever) was the effect of Tera Shell turning a move Not Very Effective

 

[StompyStomps]

Kid named Protean:


I think Meowscarada and Weavile do different things, especially with a different stab combo (despite meowscarada effectively having stab on everything). Weavile having priority that isn't sucker punch is a big thing actually and it's not as easily read as a choiced attacker which is also a boon, because you can easily bluff band with it (if you somehow win the hazard war lmao)

Meow also has Sucker Punch

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

current meta is so balanced and perfect.

love doing chip damage to every single pokemon on the team with bridge dragon stealth rock + dragon tail + body press + iron head before they break through- putting enough stuff in CB grassy glide range before they can get out of hand.

 

[YubelVT]

Meow also has Sucker Punch

Please re-read what I said. The entire point is that weavile's priority is more reliable than sucker

 

[Heatranator]

current meta is so balanced and perfect.

Not really, something like Deo-S is potentially banworthy, but even if it is balanced in our eyes now, it would be too early to say so. We just came off the ban of one of the most bullshit pokemon that has ever graced OU, of course it is going to be balanced compared to that. Something could show itself to be broken in the near future. The metagame is only about a week old, we shouldn't be thinking that and keep out an eye for potential broken mons.

 

[Napoli Burns]

rmoon, volcarona and dengo are stronger than ever

kyurem even without roost can hit so many things

 

[Cuddly]

rmoon, volcarona and dengo are stronger than ever

Yo Samurott-H ONLY B rank? In THIS meta?
With Doexys-S in the tier it’s actually really great.

 

[Heatranator]

Yo Samurott-H ONLY B rank? In THIS meta?
With Doexys-S in the tier it’s actually really great.

I mean, they put glimmora in D rank, below cinccino... I love cinccino so much, but come on. That's just not right. Next to I might allow, but not below. I might be competing with Deo-S, but it has things like mortal spin, toxic debris and stealth rocks over Deo-S

 

[arnimacarni]

I’m just gonna drop this personal VR of my thoughts on the meta.
View attachment 582096

If anyone wants to make one themselves, here’s the templete.

https://tiermaker.com/create/scarlet-and-violet-indigo-disk-ou-tier-list-929297

To sum up a few of my thoughts in words.
View attachment 582079View attachment 582080
Skarm and Ting-Lu have solidified themselves as the premier defensive core of the tier. Covering several meta threats and shitting out hazards.

View attachment 582081View attachment 582082
Hatt matches up well with Deo-S and Gliscor/Ting-Lu/Skarm Spike Stacking while having useful utility in CM, Nuzzle, Eject Button shenanigans, and Healing Wish on HO/Sun. Skeledirge is an excellent anti-meta pick that checks a bunch of threats while being annoying to switch into itself. The additions of Serp, Latias, Iron Crown, and Volcarona have improved its relevance in the tier. It helps that the Balance structures Dirge often finds itself in have risen in popularity.

View attachment 582083View attachment 582084View attachment 582085
Blaziken appreciates the absence of Fini. Its old checks in Pex, Slowbro, Lando, and Chomp got hit by power creep or movepool nerfs. It can snowball out of control and has several options to mess with like 3Atks Protect, SD + Protect, Tera Flying Acro, etc. Darkrai is excellent at breaking Balance cores with either 3Atks Hypnosis or LO, also boasting an impressive speed tier and being solid speed control with a Scarf set. Weavile has excellent matchups into most of the top threats while providing offensive utility with Knock + Ice Shard.

View attachment 582086View attachment 582087View attachment 582088
Despite the presence of Gliscor, Garganacl remains an excellent wincon with Curse or ID. It also checks the new Gouging Fire while doing many of its old tricks. Latias as shown by players like Pinkacross, is a deadly wincon on HO teams and could also run the old classic Scarf Healing Wish set. Wogre took a huge hit in DLC2. New dragons, Serp, and the overall power level increase has put this Top 5 mon into the waiting room. It still does sport excellent utility with Knock, Encore, Spikes, and U-Turn.

View attachment 582089View attachment 582090
Grimm is high up because it is the ultimate anti-Deo-S. Being able to deny it from doing..anything is huge. Ttar and Sand in general got a boost with Drill. Either SpD sets, Band, or AV. It can blanket check several mons in the tier while providing utility with Knock, SR, T-Wave, and Roar. More offensive variants can crack open holes, even with Tusk/Ting-Lu/Valiant in the tier.

View attachment 582099
Mid as hell rn. Dirge stonks are on the rise. Volcarona is back. Moon means it has to run Dgleam again. Outsped by the new Iron Boulder. Things may get better for it in the future, but it just seems like a UUBL mon rn. A fall from grace.

View attachment 582100View attachment 582101
Cinccino is a niche alternative to Maus. Trading Population Bomb and Encore for Technician boosted T-Axel and Knock. Pert’s unique typing and access to Knock, SR, and Flip Turn gives it a small but viable niche in the tier.

View attachment 582102View attachment 582103
Hippo can soft check Boulder, offensive Tusk, Gambit, 4atks Zama, and Gouging Fire while clicking rocks. Viable if you wanna run sand but are Tyranitarophobic. If it wasn’t passive as shit, I’d be considered at least B material. As long as Gambit/Ghold exist, Incineroar will have a niche, small as it is. It also completely walls Skeledirge and threatens with Knock while being a slow effective pivot with Parting Shot.

I'm sorry bc this has possibly been discussed to death but now I can't find any posts. How come Skarm is so relevant/appreciated/viable/powerful in the new meta, specially when Corv is there and Corv has Defog? Is it just bc now we get SkarmTing like SkarmBliss? Or what niche does it get over Corviknight?

 

[Cuddly]

I'm sorry bc this has possibly been discussed to death but now I can't find any posts. How come Skarm is so relevant/appreciated/viable/powerful in the new meta, specially when Corv is there and Corv has Defog? Is it just bc now we get SkarmTing like SkarmBliss? Or what niche does it get over Corviknight?

It’s niche is being like combination of Gliscor and Corviknight. Honestly it’s usually better to run Gliscor imo if you want a Spikes Setter that’s bulky. Poison Heal is too strong to pass up imo.

 

[Heatranator]

I'm sorry bc this has possibly been discussed to death but now I can't find any posts. How come Skarm is so relevant/appreciated/viable/powerful in the new meta, specially when Corv is there and Corv has Defog? Is it just bc now we get SkarmTing like SkarmBliss? Or what niche does it get over Corviknight?

Corv struggles to defog immensly in this meta, which other than u-turn, is it's main advantage over skarm. And u-turn can be a struggle to fit on sets because you want to run other moves like i-defense, body press, defog, brave bird and roost. Skarm has better physical defense than corv and spikes, which is huge in this hazard infected metagame. The extra special defensive capabilites of corv is not enough in this high power metagame, so you have to choose phys. defense walling, which skarm does better.
TLDR, corv's advantages are not as impactful in this metagame, so skarm's advantages' really shine.

 

[TCTphantom]

I’m just gonna drop this personal VR of my thoughts on the meta.
View attachment 582096

If anyone wants to make one themselves, here’s the templete.

https://tiermaker.com/create/scarlet-and-violet-indigo-disk-ou-tier-list-929297

To sum up a few of my thoughts in words.
View attachment 582079View attachment 582080
Skarm and Ting-Lu have solidified themselves as the premier defensive core of the tier. Covering several meta threats and shitting out hazards.

View attachment 582081View attachment 582082
Hatt matches up well with Deo-S and Gliscor/Ting-Lu/Skarm Spike Stacking while having useful utility in CM, Nuzzle, Eject Button shenanigans, and Healing Wish on HO/Sun. Skeledirge is an excellent anti-meta pick that checks a bunch of threats while being annoying to switch into itself. The additions of Serp, Latias, Iron Crown, and Volcarona have improved its relevance in the tier. It helps that the Balance structures Dirge often finds itself in have risen in popularity.

View attachment 582083View attachment 582084View attachment 582085
Blaziken appreciates the absence of Fini. Its old checks in Pex, Slowbro, Lando, and Chomp got hit by power creep or movepool nerfs. It can snowball out of control and has several options to mess with like 3Atks Protect, SD + Protect, Tera Flying Acro, etc. Darkrai is excellent at breaking Balance cores with either 3Atks Hypnosis or LO, also boasting an impressive speed tier and being solid speed control with a Scarf set. Weavile has excellent matchups into most of the top threats while providing offensive utility with Knock + Ice Shard.

View attachment 582086View attachment 582087View attachment 582088
Despite the presence of Gliscor, Garganacl remains an excellent wincon with Curse or ID. It also checks the new Gouging Fire while doing many of its old tricks. Latias as shown by players like Pinkacross, is a deadly wincon on HO teams and could also run the old classic Scarf Healing Wish set. Wogre took a huge hit in DLC2. New dragons, Serp, and the overall power level increase has put this Top 5 mon into the waiting room. It still does sport excellent utility with Knock, Encore, Spikes, and U-Turn.

View attachment 582089View attachment 582090
Grimm is high up because it is the ultimate anti-Deo-S. Being able to deny it from doing..anything is huge. Ttar and Sand in general got a boost with Drill. Either SpD sets, Band, or AV. It can blanket check several mons in the tier while providing utility with Knock, SR, T-Wave, and Roar. More offensive variants can crack open holes, even with Tusk/Ting-Lu/Valiant in the tier.

View attachment 582099
Mid as hell rn. Dirge stonks are on the rise. Volcarona is back. Moon means it has to run Dgleam again. Outsped by the new Iron Boulder. Things may get better for it in the future, but it just seems like a UUBL mon rn. A fall from grace.

View attachment 582100View attachment 582101
Cinccino is a niche alternative to Maus. Trading Population Bomb and Encore for Technician boosted T-Axel and Knock. Pert’s unique typing and access to Knock, SR, and Flip Turn gives it a small but viable niche in the tier.

View attachment 582102View attachment 582103
Hippo can soft check Boulder, offensive Tusk, Gambit, 4atks Zama, and Gouging Fire while clicking rocks. Viable if you wanna run sand but are Tyranitarophobic. If it wasn’t passive as shit, I’d be considered at least B material. As long as Gambit/Ghold exist, Incineroar will have a niche, small as it is. It also completely walls Skeledirge and threatens with Knock while being a slow effective pivot with Parting Shot.

Where is Torkaol?

Here's my rough one from another template. No I do not want to rank anything below B- right now or split hairs over that.