Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )

[YubelVT]

yes i would just expect more open mindedness and less assertive, dismissive language afterwards. opinions are one thing but I think some thoughts about Urshifu-R and even though less convincing, Lugia were well voiced and not 'utterly deranged'.

again we would be out nothing by running a 2 week suspect on something like this and deciding we were wrong. I'm not necessarily a huge advocate for either but the attitude is perplexing.

+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss in Rain on a critical hit: 450-531 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain on a critical hit: 321-378 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper in Rain on a critical hit: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain on a critical hit: 255-300 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Urshifu-R is not a thing we want backing up rain teams.

I think that without Hidden Power in the arsenal, Shaymin-S could be tested in OU... without Tera allowed. This is another Mon that maybe could be balanced, even with Serene Grace, but Tera makes that chance 0%. So, I wouldn,t waste time even discussing it.

No??? Serene Grace Air Slash on a pokemon with base 127 speed is fucking absurd. What is wrong with you people that you even think skymin is ok to test

 

[Some random freak]

I have too much PTSD from D/P/P Togekiss and Jirachi to ever want Shaymin-S in the tier.

 

[1234hjkl]

No??? Serene Grace Air Slash on a pokemon with base 127 speed is fucking absurd. What is wrong with you people that you even think skymin is ok to test

Look, while I will die on the hill until proven wrong than Lugia is fine in OU and believe Shaymin-S is not fine here I think the guy below:

Who is veeeeeery invested in the communtity might have some takes we should at the very least try to hear out.

 

[Bakugames]

Eeveeto has controversial takes and hes based for that imo. If you read this my man keep posting, unironically not a joke. Its always good to have someone who'll push back on this forums echo chamber and nature of following whoever sounds more convincing, especially when they're very experienced. You can disagree with him but eeveetos like a cornerstone species in this ecosystem

 

[TheTraininator]

I… wouldn’t be opposed to an eventual Lugia test. Eventual is the operative keyword here, though. Even if the meta is surprisingly decent right now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t a few Pokémon that raise eyebrows which need to be addressed first. If after a long while in the meta there’s enough community support for it, I could see it happening. It’s definitely got a much worse typing and offensive presence than Solgaleo, but I still don’t see Calm Mind being healthy for OU with that bulk and speed tier, and Pressure Lugia would be a MASSIVE weapon for stall. Honestly the only reason I think it’s even considerable is the fact that it doesn’t learn Stored Power, which would definitely make it significantly less passive if it did with some Grassy Terrain + Grassy Seed support. But recovery is still a huge deal and separates it from the likes of Zam-H.

TL;DR: Better to free Lugia than Solgaleo, I guess? Eh. Another day.

I think that without Hidden Power in the arsenal, Shaymin-S could be tested in OU... without Tera allowed. This is another Mon that maybe could be balanced, even with Serene Grace, but Tera makes that chance 0%. So, I wouldn,t waste time even discussing it.

Even without Tera, Earth Power is a thing it gets, and there’s very few Pokémon that can switch into Seed Flare, get the -2, and take either another Seed Flare, Air Slash, or Earth Power afterwards. Anything that can, like the metal birds, is often one extra 60% flinch away from death anyways. Booster Energy mons definitely help keep it in check offensively, but balance and defensive teams usually lose to it hard with no need for setup whatsoever, unlike Darkrai who needs Nasty Plot to get anything done vs them. I understand where you’re coming from, but personally I’m on team “never ever” for Skymin.

 

[TCTphantom]

Personally, I’d say now would be a good time to answer the Tera question for the foreseeable future. Mons like Deoxys Speed, Enamorus, Roaring Moon, or Kyurem all are strong, but nothing right now strikes me as both strong enough and has enough community drive behind it for a test right now. Maybe a survey would point things in the right direction, but right now the meta feels good so I wouldn’t be shocked if nothing ranks that high at the end of the day.

I know we have discussed touching Tera in the Indigo Disk or at least having a discussion on it, and with the meta in a pretty good spot this might be a good time to do it. Obviously, the council has the final say on the matter. Personally, I don’t really have any strong opinions on Tera, though if I had to push a consensus compromise I’d look into Tera Blast. Part of why I’d like it looked at now is just to ensure we won’t have dozens of pages of salt fueled discourse going forward too on both sides. Cynical, I know. But I felt it was worth mentioning.

I feel like now is a relatively reasonable time to look into Tera since we are in a stable meta people seem to enjoy. I don’t even know how i would vote, but this feels like a good time to toss Tera onto the survey.

 

[StompyStomps]

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

Pult feels kinda mid rn, I don't know why

Bulky Balance

Gouging Fire and Reuniclus respectively

 

[CobsonYaoi]

Unban everything I just want to watch the meta burn

 

[MegaScizor32]

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

1. I think is a top 3 mon in the meta rn despite all the new mons
2. I’m really liking Balance rn. I’ve also used alot of Bulky Offense as well.
3. My favorite physical attacker rn is and my favorite special attacker is

 

[powergo1]

I think that without Hidden Power in the arsenal, Shaymin-S could be tested in OU... without Tera allowed. This is another Mon that maybe could be balanced, even with Serene Grace, but Tera makes that chance 0%. So, I wouldn,t waste time even discussing it.

Bro Tera isn't what makes it busted, Serene Grace+ 127 speed+airslash+seed flare is

 

[Bakugames]

I know the council is probably going to go with a pokémon ban, but I kinda want to push again the option of having the final promised tera suspect right now, before any future bans happen.

While some people can argue (with fair points) that mons like deo-s and moon are too much, this is probably the most stable meta we've had in a bit. Banning deo-s, moon or whatever else will probably bring instability again and result in a few needed cascade bans, and after that we have no clue how long it'll take for the meta to get balanced again.

Its not too early but not too late, almost the perfect spot to discuss the mechanic again, rip the bandaid and finally concreticize what we'll be working
with for the rest of gen 9. I think dragging it out for too long will make the discussion even more complicated and bring back the whole "oh its too late now" arguments etc. Might as well get it over with.

 

[June Heat]

Darkrai really opened the door for nonsense talk. Can we please focus on the now, and not make a million posts about hypotheticals when we don’t even have a solved metagame?

As far as Kyurem goes, idk. It’s strong for sure, but just gets eaten away by hazards, and its DD set at least has some solid checks/counters. Choice Specs I can see being a problem, but it’s still too early to really say.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

yes i would just expect more open mindedness and less assertive, dismissive language afterwards. opinions are one thing but I think some thoughts about Urshifu-R and even though less convincing, Lugia were well voiced and not 'utterly deranged'.

open-mindedness has a limit. i'm not going to sit here and pretend like "we should drop solgaleo/lugia/skymin" are arguments worth entertaining, no matter how many badges the people bringing them up have or how well-voiced the arguments are. every single council member could type a separate 5-paragraph essay on why they would support a lugia test, the idea would still be wrong and i wouldn't hesitate a damn second saying so. christ himself could come down from heaven and decree that solgaleo should drop and i'd still be first in line to call bullshit

again we would be out nothing by running a 2 week suspect on something like this and deciding we were wrong. I'm not necessarily a huge advocate for either but the attitude is perplexing.

we would be out 2 weeks where we could have been doing something infinitely more productive like dealing with what's going on in the present instead of trying to solve imaginary problems by creating very real ones

 

[Napoli Burns]

it always makes me sad reading posts with so much anger and frustation made by people who lives 24/7 on smogon.

About suspecting tera makes no sense anymore, most banlist is based on pokemon with tera. Demolish a tier and built it again for maybe get a slight, better meta than this is not worth.

For me suspecting dengo makes a lot more sense, if he does not get the ban suspect deo-s and gliscor. Tusk learning a fire move and be able to mindgame with dengo does not make the ghost less broken. I am totally sick of hazards, not our fault if gf forgot defog.

Specs Kyurem is stopped easily by blissey and get destroyed by hazards. Sub variant lost roost, biggest tool and the set is pretty dead even if usable, i tried it with endeavor. DDancer can't really pass dozo, outspeeded by every booster energy user.

 

[Bakugames]

About suspecting tera makes no sense anymore, most banlist is based on pokemon with tera. Demolish a tier and built it again for maybe get a slight, better meta than this is not worth.

The suspect was pretty much promised, so unless council decides that it's better to go back on that (i don't mean judgementally, it was a promise made before we knew what dlc2 would look like), it's going to happen. I don't personally think it'll be productive, but I do think the people who wanted a test before and who were told to wait for dlc2 should be thrown a bone

 

[Cuddly]

People really didn’t learn their lesson with Terapagos did they?
A Pokemon with over 600 BST is only fine in OU if they have a massive serious flaw. You have 5 Pokemon over 600 BST that are legal.
has Howl and Iron Defense as its best boosting moves while having only 120 Atk.
might be banned again pulling Baxcalibur shit to a lesser degree, but is an Ice type where a ton if its BST is used in one or other offense. Also no burn immunity.
is strong but also has one of the worst defensive profiles in the game.
And these 2 have the 2 worst abilities in the game.
all of these guys DO NOT have such major flaws.

 

[CodeFour]

would still be wrong and i wouldn't hesitate a damn second saying so

We know.

we would be out 2 weeks where we could have been doing something infinitely more productive like dealing with what's going on in the present instead of trying to solve imaginary problems by creating very real ones

There's literally nothing glaringly going on in the present. That is the obvious majority opinion. In a limited test, no problems are created that can't revert back to the balanced place we have now- while everyone acknowledges that trying to ban something now will likely have a cascading effect- which sounds more to me like solving imaginary problems and creating very real ones. So there's no reason to continue with the same attitude you had about midrai.

Regardless I don't think we need to rush into any action- but the current game is a pretty big argument that our thoughts on how to move forward don't need to be absolutely one direction. Let's let a few weeks play out but with how the game is looking now I don't see any reason to rule out all current bans getting a new test entirely. Shouting down like Darkrai is a mistake- and we should allow this discussion to play out respectfully.

2 months ago "I dont think it's in the cards" is not a definitive never going to happen DaddyBuzzwole
To your additional edit: I do think Urshifu-r is the most likely contender, which is what my first post had said....... I just don't like the dismissive overall attitude towards unbans in general.

 

[Napoli Burns]

The suspect was pretty much promised,

i know our beloved beautiful handsome tier leader Finchinator made that promise but "don't fix what is broken". I have no idea how was possible to fix a meta by introducing more broken things but apparently, it worked. The biggest issue is defog right now, i think is only time to see dengo adapt to the new tusk's fire move or simply start using another ghost (pult, the new legendary coming in january or simply use tera ghost on gliscor).

Using hazards is so much profitable, now we got even more koffer so dedicanting 2 slots or 1 tera is acceptable if your opponent can't, virtually clear them. Also, with more fast and bulky threats cinderace isn't effective like in dlc 1 as hazard control.

 

[Roshino]

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

1. Dragapult is still strong. It got some competition now, but I'm fairly certain its specs sets are still top-notch. Once the overly mentioned new toy syndrome settles down people will use it more, albeit less than before the DLC since now there are other options.

2. I'm always a fan of heavy-pivot strategies. Flip turn, U-turn, Parting shot, Volt Switch - hmmmmmmmmmmhm. Delicious. I have mentioned before that Scizor is really strong right now - VoltTurn cores are fun and feel very powerful to play.

3. I'm a huge fan of Banded Meowscarada. The cat does very similar stuff to Weavile, but trades a (small) smidge of power and speed for not being vulnerable to SR, and having access to both Protean U-Turn and Flower Trick. Flower Trick is a fucking tactical nuke intro screens compositions. If we're talking about DLC2 (re)additions, I'm having a ton of fun with CM Magic Guard Reuniclus. The little vibedude is a great middle finger to stall, whilst still functioning as a great wincon.

Darkrai really opened the door for nonsense talk. Can we please focus on the now, and not make a million posts about hypotheticals when we don’t even have a solved metagame?

As far as Kyurem goes, idk. It’s strong for sure, but just gets eaten away by hazards, and its DD set at least has some solid checks/counters. Choice Specs I can see being a problem, but it’s still too early to really say.

Yeah I hope dropping Ubers doesn't become a constant because it will most likely exponentiate power creep and constant "OU discussions" regarding stuff that isn't OU.

Now, to Kyurem: I can see Choice Specs sets with Ice Beam, Freeze-Dry and Earth Power being very oppressive. Dragapult's specs sets are (barely) held back by resists and its middling 100 base spatk. Kyurem trades in Dragapult's flagship speed for a hell of a lot of damage AND Ice Beam+Freeze-Dry+Earth Power coverage. It has virtually no resists and can only be safely intercepted by dedicated special walls, and even then it is kinda shaky.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


That's fucked up

 

[Srn]

I know the council is probably going to go with a pokémon ban, but I kinda want to push again the option of having the final promised tera suspect right now, before any future bans happen.

While some people can argue (with fair points) that mons like deo-s and moon are too much, this is probably the most stable meta we've had in a bit. Banning deo-s, moon or whatever else will probably bring instability again and result in a few needed cascade bans, and after that we have no clue how long it'll take for the meta to get balanced again.

Its not too early but not too late, almost the perfect spot to discuss the mechanic again, rip the bandaid and finally concreticize what we'll be working
with for the rest of gen 9. I think dragging it out for too long will make the discussion even more complicated and bring back the whole "oh its too late now" arguments etc. Might as well get it over with.

As the self-proclaimed #1 tera hater, I actually do not want a tera suspect anytime soon. Ideally we try the most popular half-measure first, which would be to suspect tera blast, and then see if tera is still a problem with a cut and dry ban/no ban vote. I want to see if the meta can develop in a healthy manner with tera first, to give it a fair chance, and I would like to treat a tera suspect as a last resort after several efforts of balancing the meta have failed, rather than some chore to "get it over with."

Quite frankly, if I'm seeing several surveys with 7.5+ scores in competitiveness and enjoyment, there might not ever be a need to suspect tera and I'll gladly shut up about it.

 

[Morkal]

i know our beloved beautiful handsome tier leader Finchinator made that promise but "don't fix what is broken". I have no idea how was possible to fix a meta by introducing more broken things but apparently, it worked. The biggest issue is defog right now, i think is only time to see dengo adapt to the new tusk's fire move or simply start using another ghost (pult, the new legendary coming in january or simply use tera ghost on gliscor).

Regarding Tera, I agree with Napoli Burns here that Tera feels a lot more manageable in this meta than it does in DLC1 or even pre-DLC. I think the problem was that we were straddling a line trying to keep the tier levels in check with previous generations unknowingly, and as soon as we lifted the cap a little bit things started to feel a lot more fresh and open. I'm still not necessarily convinced that Dhengo will be a problem as I feel there's a LOT more counterplay to its various sets now so there isn't as much teambuilding pressure, but I suppose time will tell.

As the self-proclaimed #1 tera hater, I actually do not want a tera suspect anytime soon. Ideally we try the most popular half-measure first, which would be to suspect tera blast, and then see if tera is still a problem with a cut and dry ban/no ban vote. I want to see if the meta can develop in a healthy manner with tera first, to give it a fair chance, and I would like to treat a tera suspect as a last resort after several efforts of balancing the meta have failed, rather than some chore to "get it over with."

As the self-proclaimed #1 tera simp, I completely agree with this. I love Tera, I love what it has done for creativity and variety in this metagame in addition to giving many old mons a new lease on life. If it does become a problem down the line, we should suspect Tera Blast first and see how it is with that half-measure as you mentioned.

 

[YubelVT]

Unrelated to the shitshow above, I swear to god showdown fucked up the accuracy calculations for sub 100% accurate moves when they added DLC2 mons. They probably didn't but good god dracos have been missing way more often than normal and I just want someone to either check and make sure or tell me I'm just getting unlucky (but be nice please)

 

[Roshino]

Unrelated to the shitshow above, I swear to god showdown fucked up the accuracy calculations for sub 100% accurate moves when they added DLC2 mons. They probably didn't but good god dracos have been missing way more often than normal and I just want someone to either check and make sure or tell me I'm just getting unlucky (but be nice please)

Pyro Ball 20% accuracy is the sole reason I don't use Cinderace anymore

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

We know.


There's literally nothing glaringly going on in the present. That is the obvious majority opinion. In a limited test, no problems are created that can't revert back to the balanced place we have now- while everyone acknowledges that trying to ban something now will likely have a cascading effect- which sounds more to me like solving imaginary problems and creating very real ones. So there's no reason to continue with the same attitude you had about midrai.

Regardless I don't think we need to rush into any action- but the current game is a pretty big argument that our thoughts on how to move forward don't need to be absolutely one direction. Let's let a few weeks play out but with how the game is looking now I don't see any reason to rule out all current bans getting a new test entirely. Shouting down like Darkrai is a mistake- and we should allow this discussion to play out respectfully.

not to be rude, but:
solgaleo will not be unbanned. lugia will not be unbanned. skymin will especially not be unbanned. arguments to the contrary are largely based on theorymonning, memes, misunderstanding of why those mons are where they are, and occasionally willful ignorance. why are we continuing to discuss questions that have already been definitively answered and aren't at all relevant to ou? this is supposed to be a meta discussion thread, not a "haha drop this box legendary so it can carry me on ladder and all my favorite poketubers can make funny videos about it" discussion thread. i'd very much appreciate it if we put a permanent stop to the "drop box legendaries/skymin" argument because it's causing me actual psychological distress now. we can continue discussing urshifu-r in the future because there are actually a surprising number of new tools against it (even though i'd personally be against a retest of it, there are legitimate arguments for that one), but as for everything else, no, absolutely not

 

[MellowBusiness]

I think that without Hidden Power in the arsenal, Shaymin-S could be tested in OU... without Tera allowed. This is another Mon that maybe could be balanced, even with Serene Grace, but Tera makes that chance 0%. So, I wouldn,t waste time even discussing it.

Shaymin-S is one of three Pokemon(?) to ever receive a 100% ban rate throughout Smogon's entire history.
No one ever wants to deal with 60% flinch chance and a 100% chance to drop your special defense by 2 stages off of base 127 sp. attack.