Actually, why not run Raging Fury instead? Wouldn't it be better to opt for over Flare Blitz thanks to the lack of recoil?
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
The moderators of this forum are Finchinator, Ruft, 658Greninja, kd458, ausma, FayaWizard, Heatranator, Setsu, Shaymin Sky and TPP.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Actually, why not run Raging Fury instead? Wouldn't it be better to opt for over Flare Blitz thanks to the lack of recoil?
I've been laddering a lot with sun recently, and honestly, I've been having a really successful time running both, since you're clicking the big damage move most of the time whenever you get in, it's usually nice having the option to choose wether you'll get chipped for 40% of stay locked into the move, there's a ton of matchups where you'd rather take the recoil, while there's others that you'd want to get locked in and just claim a bunch of kills.
Try it out, it's fun :)
I think a major difference is that Chi-Yu was broken outside of Sun. Even if Chi-Yu is not under the Sun, you still get ridiculous calcs like these, specially with Tera.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat over 2 turns vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 560-660 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
Plus not being chipped by Flare Blitz recoil helps with its survivability.
, which I feel is utterly bonked right now. Not much can handle Proto Booster Energy Ddance set with Knock, Earthquake, and Acrobatics. Taunt is also an option to slot in here that allows Roaring Moon to break through a lot of would-be checks as well.Band Dragonite is the set that I've seen put in the most consistent work - while the best Dragon Dancer in the tier could arguably be Gouging Fire (Kyurem wants to run Mixed or Specs more than DD tbh).
Okay, wow, these calcs kind of scared me at first ngl. Being able to 2HKO fully invested physical dozo + mola in the sun with a resisted hit is insane. But it's also quite weather-reliant and prone to wear down via hazards - additionally, if you don't predict a mon like Heatran switching in and blanking it with Flash Fire, you're up a creek without a paddle. Gouging Fire is bonkers strong though and that power output is no joke at all, Sun is proving to be the most dominant weather in OU right now by a wide margin.
Last edited:
Oh, cool!
Oh no!
Tidy Up also on a Ferret, for some reason
Actually, what are people's thoughts on Heatran? I don't see it too much and it may be overlooked by power creep.
you know what, considering that the set never needs to click any other move to 2hko any relevant thing in the tier, you've got a very compelling point here. the only real threats to it being able to one-shot or two-shot everything are weather setters and faster things, so if you take out pelipper/atales/sand first and have a partner with twave you can just paralyze everything and ggez from there a lot of the time. and stall can't really do anything at all to it
i'm also thinking i should maybe pack heat crash in the back so i have the option to switch out against some things if i need to
also, i have to wonder if i wouldn't be better off investing into bulk instead of speed. gouging fire's got great natural bulk and 91 is a kinda awkward speed tier, so maybe leaning into the bulk is a better way to avoid revenge kills, especially since i kinda need to get tusk out of the picture first either way. thoughts?
Last edited:
Gouging Fire hits a 309 Speed Tier at most, assuming no boosts and a Jolly nature. Enough to speed tie you with Lando-T (RIP) and enough to outrun Jolly Excadrill (also RIP). Foregoing Jolly for Adamant means you get outran by Zapdos, but Raging Fury actually doesn't even make contact. You wouldn't need to fret about Static. Personally, I'd like to at least hit 294 to outrun Gholdengo, but I would generally recommend taking a look at the Speed Tier forums to see what you'd like to outpace before committing.
Well, for the bulk thing, you only need 224 ev's with jolly to outspeed tusk, otherwise there doesn't seem much other than excadrill which you need 232 ev's. With jolly and no evs, you hit 239. I would reccommend running full speed ev's because it really isn't worth it. Unless of course you want your fire to be a pure wallbreaker, which 200 ev's and jolly outspeeds jolly ghold.
TLDR, full ev's if outspeeding, 200 if outspeed ghold, none if pure wallbreaking.
When the next survey is here, I won't be giving that many mons above a 3 aside from Roaring Moon (5), Gouging Fire (4) and Serperior (4). None of the DLC 2 additions strikes me as being as broken as Ursaluna-Bloodmoon or Ogerpon-Hearthflame. Roaring Moon is disgusting though, and not much has changed for it aside from Archaludon being a good check to it under Grassy Terrain. Ogerpon-Wellspring is just not broken anymore with the new additions to the tier, and it will likely stay OU for the rest of the generation or even fall to UU and get banned there since Ogerpon-Cornerstone is better than it now.
I agree that roaring moon and serperior are problematic, though only moon is banworthy, but gouging fire I don't think is. Sure, it is powerful but it can be stuffed very easily by some pokemon. It struggles against clefable, tusk, gliscor, garg, heatran, lando, skeledirge, ting lu and zamazenta. Not all of these are amazing answers, but it also has a bit of 4mss. It needs stabs and dd, but wants e-quake, morning sun and burning bulwark. Definetely a top mon, but not broken.
Speaking of Burning Bulwark, would it be wise to run a Physically Defensive set using that, Roar, Heat Crash and Morning Sun? I probably should be running this thing Specially Defensive over Torkoal, but I just really like using Phys Def Goug. It feels satisfying. It feels right.
I've used a set with dual stabs, morning sun and burning burning bulwark and full defensive investment. It can be amazing against certain physical attackers who sometimes just can't hit it very hard, but other times it can be dead weight. Still does great damage, but it is specific.
What do you opt for with your STABs? Currently running Heat Crash and Roar, just to get rid of Serp's Sub.
I currently run heat crash and dragon claw. Without dragon claw, some heavy mons use you as set up fodder, though I can see the reason why you would run roar. I just prefer the consistent damage of claw instead.
have you tried dragon tail to split the difference? you still get damage, but you also get most of the phazing capabilities that roar provides. can't phaze through a serperior sub like roar can, but you can still stop plenty of stuff that thinks it can set up in your face
Considering Serperior is a top threat in the meta, I would consider it pretty important to be able to get it off the field, so having Roar makes a lot of sense. And unlucky Dragon Tail misses are often cringe-inducing moments.
I didn't think of that, that's actually a good idea. I do prefer claw but that's a potential variance on the set I could use.
this is true, but i think you're kinda fucked either way if serp turns out to be tera ground, right? unless you're packing a skarmory in the back, which… actually synergizes really well type-wise with gouging fire… and has phazing capabilities of its own… hmmmmm…
Something I've tried before and liked was investing in Def, but then using both Burning Bulwark and Dragon Dance to turn the opponent's physical attackers into an opportunity to setup sweep. Gouging Fire's stats are good enough without investment, so you really just need to get one or two Speed increases to be as fast as you'll ever need to be. The limited attacking coverage can hurt, but you just need to be careful about what moves you bring. I probably would use HDB or Leftovers here instead of Booster Energy so you can come in more than once and keep trying to do this.
Edit: Theoretical set.
Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 72 HP / 156 Atk / 128 Def / 152 Spe
Impish Nature
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Claw
- Burning Bulwark
- Dragon Dance
Outspeeds Timid Darkrai after one DDance, but you can invest further in bulk/damage as you see fit. I am by no means an expert EV Spread Guy so this is all just hitting numbers I think are important.
Last edited:
Its funny that Ogerpon-Wellspring went from borderline broken in DLC1 to arguably not even being a radar threat in DLC2. TBH, its not hard to see why either. DLC1 had very few defensive Dragons and Grass-types, leading to Ogerpon being able to run SD / Encore / dual stab sets which compressed high utility and virtually unwallable coverage in one slot. In DLC2, we got multiple new checks to Ogerpon-W. Roaring Moon, Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Hydrapple, Kyurem, and Serperior are all decent meta Pokemon in their own right, and will naturally check Ogerpon-W. Latios and Latias IMO are both decent Pokemon in the OU metagame as well due to there being less defensive Fairy-types and they give Ogerpon a rough time for similar reasons. Faster Pokemon like Darkrai, Iron Boulder, and Deoxys-Speed can also naturally check Ogerpon-W in the 1v1 due to their higher speed, with Darkrai being able to cripple Ogerpon with its fast Wisp and Iron Boulder and Deoxy's speed dealing a high amount of damage with Mighty Cleave and Psycho Boost.
Ogerpon-W can run Play Rough to get around most of the Dragons, but that typically requires sacrificing Encore, which will hinder its MUs vs other Pokemon like Kingambit & still leaves holes in its coverage vs Archaludon. For this reason, I think Cornerstone is arguably more threatening offensively, as Rock is a noticably better neutral attacking type in this metagame vs the Dragons and it can run both Knock Off and Low Kick for other switch-ins like Archaludon, Kingambit, and Gholdengo. Sturdy is also a high key useful ability vs offensive structures.
This isn't to say Wellspring is bad, but I think its a much more managable presence now, which is good. I think Wellspring brings a lot of positive qualities to the metagame and more counterplay options being availible should hopefully alleviate players complaints about it and let it stay in the tier longer. Though, with a fair few checks like Kyurem and Roaring Moon being radar candidates themselves, I am worried that it will eventually be too much for the tier to handle should those Pokemon get banned.
Ogerpon-W can run Play Rough to get around most of the Dragons, but that typically requires sacrificing Encore, which will hinder its MUs vs other Pokemon like Kingambit & still leaves holes in its coverage vs Archaludon. For this reason, I think Cornerstone is arguably more threatening offensively, as Rock is a noticably better neutral attacking type in this metagame vs the Dragons and it can run both Knock Off and Low Kick for other switch-ins like Archaludon, Kingambit, and Gholdengo. Sturdy is also a high key useful ability vs offensive structures.
This isn't to say Wellspring is bad, but I think its a much more managable presence now, which is good. I think Wellspring brings a lot of positive qualities to the metagame and more counterplay options being availible should hopefully alleviate players complaints about it and let it stay in the tier longer. Though, with a fair few checks like Kyurem and Roaring Moon being radar candidates themselves, I am worried that it will eventually be too much for the tier to handle should those Pokemon get banned.
Grassy Terrain is good and Heatran is nearly a staple on Grassy Terrain teams, even without Sneasler existing.
That mon is criminally underused and should not be. This might be Heatran at its best this gen.
I've really really liked Gouging Fire + Skarm as a slightly more offensive alternative to Skarm + Ting Lu.
Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 212 HP / 128 SpD / 168 Spe
Careful Nature
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Tail
168 Spe outspeeds Adamant Dragonite, SpD investment since Skarm has the physical side of things covered -- 128 EVs gives you a SpD boost in opposing sun. I've run those two with SpD Swampert (ht/Morkal) to round out a defensive balance core to solid results.
After reading it here have people tried more Raging Fury? The fact that it is a non contact move is crazy and if someone can confirm that it works I am going to try it on Paradox Entei.
------
I do not see Heatran often, is there a good Non-Magma Storm Set?
------
I do not see Heatran often, is there a good Non-Magma Storm Set?
it's been a week since the tier has been released and i think its very safe to say, that its the most balanced and fun SV has been.
One thing i always want from a tier is variety, fun factor and balance. Trying to keep the banlist as low as possible as long as the meta isn't broken is always a good thing, and that is what this meta is right now. Every playstyle is very fun to use, there are tons of room for creative picks like primarina, G-weezing, salamence. So i really would like to keep the meta as is.
The one thing i hated about DLC 1 meta was the reliance on Zapdos + Ting-Lu which makes for quite a boring meta of spamming paralysis and getting lucky, most game is about spamming thunder wave with glowking, dragapult and zapdos, and then having the endgame be enamorus or zamazenta 1v1. Its really hard to be creative since the top mons check eachother so well, and not using them is really shooting yourself in the foot.
With the release of stuff like gliscor and new moveset changes, the amount of viable pokemon has significantly increase and the barrier between the best pokemon and just great pokemon in general is very thin letting you build with more variety. For example, Gliscor no longer hogs the spiking role from ting-lu since whirlwind and the dark/ground spdef tank is really useful vs stuff like latios, raging bolt and roaring moon. Hex dragapult and Zamazenta no longer hogs the spot for the fast cleaner on more balance teams with the release of triple axel, Meowscarada and Weavile are now really good in these spots, hell even darkrai or deoxys-s can sometime do these roles. Every single playstyle have more variety to work with and they don't really overlap with eachother, every OU caliber mon have their uses and have their own niche. With that being said i do want to comment on some pokemon i find interesting.
Deoxys-Speed is definetly an amazing pokemon, from its lead set, to trick scarf, to boots 4a, life orb. I've mainly seen it as a speed control on BO and more balanced teams where it knocks off and revenge kills pokemon. Its Nasty Plot life orb set is also nice on HO especially PsyTerrain, however its still a deoxys-speed so its damage is very middling, and against bulkier teams or even offensive pokemon like rillaboom, gholdengo and walking wake. Since it struggles againts arguably the best style at the moment, Balance i wouldn't say its at all OP, even as a lead, other stuff that i thought would get phased out by it like glimmora, great tusk or ribombee are still excellent.
Uhhh yeah, this pokemon is not THAT good. Its still a great threat, one of the best scarfers, but the fact that it can easily be argued to be the 6th or 7th best dark type in ou (Kingambit (king of ou), Meowscarada (triple axel made it OP), Weavile (same as meow), Ting-Lu (spikes are broken, it also matches up vs new mons), Samurott-Hisui (spikes + knock broken), Roaring-Moon (HO Staple)) is kinda sad. However its still good and i doubt it will drop to UU, but its not getting banned.
great on HO as a sidegrade to iron-valiant where its the main speed control, it has amazing speed but somewhat middling attack. It's quite balanced since realistically you will never sweep with it againt a bulkier team. One thing about SV pokemon that i love but also find weird is how its physical attackers have really high special defense but its special attackers have high defense.
Oh yea this mon is really good. The addition of triple axel turned this mon from good to amazing, tons of balance team get carried by this pokemon's ability to knock off items and threaten gliscor and roaring moon. seriously you need to try this pokemon now.
Considering the meta is very balanced right now, for the Anti-Tera group, this would be a good time to start discussing it again and maybe have a second test roll around the midseasons of spl
One thing i always want from a tier is variety, fun factor and balance. Trying to keep the banlist as low as possible as long as the meta isn't broken is always a good thing, and that is what this meta is right now. Every playstyle is very fun to use, there are tons of room for creative picks like primarina, G-weezing, salamence. So i really would like to keep the meta as is.
The one thing i hated about DLC 1 meta was the reliance on Zapdos + Ting-Lu which makes for quite a boring meta of spamming paralysis and getting lucky, most game is about spamming thunder wave with glowking, dragapult and zapdos, and then having the endgame be enamorus or zamazenta 1v1. Its really hard to be creative since the top mons check eachother so well, and not using them is really shooting yourself in the foot.
With the release of stuff like gliscor and new moveset changes, the amount of viable pokemon has significantly increase and the barrier between the best pokemon and just great pokemon in general is very thin letting you build with more variety. For example, Gliscor no longer hogs the spiking role from ting-lu since whirlwind and the dark/ground spdef tank is really useful vs stuff like latios, raging bolt and roaring moon. Hex dragapult and Zamazenta no longer hogs the spot for the fast cleaner on more balance teams with the release of triple axel, Meowscarada and Weavile are now really good in these spots, hell even darkrai or deoxys-s can sometime do these roles. Every single playstyle have more variety to work with and they don't really overlap with eachother, every OU caliber mon have their uses and have their own niche. With that being said i do want to comment on some pokemon i find interesting.
Deoxys-Speed is definetly an amazing pokemon, from its lead set, to trick scarf, to boots 4a, life orb. I've mainly seen it as a speed control on BO and more balanced teams where it knocks off and revenge kills pokemon. Its Nasty Plot life orb set is also nice on HO especially PsyTerrain, however its still a deoxys-speed so its damage is very middling, and against bulkier teams or even offensive pokemon like rillaboom, gholdengo and walking wake. Since it struggles againts arguably the best style at the moment, Balance i wouldn't say its at all OP, even as a lead, other stuff that i thought would get phased out by it like glimmora, great tusk or ribombee are still excellent. Uhhh yeah, this pokemon is not THAT good. Its still a great threat, one of the best scarfers, but the fact that it can easily be argued to be the 6th or 7th best dark type in ou (Kingambit (king of ou), Meowscarada (triple axel made it OP), Weavile (same as meow), Ting-Lu (spikes are broken, it also matches up vs new mons), Samurott-Hisui (spikes + knock broken), Roaring-Moon (HO Staple)) is kinda sad. However its still good and i doubt it will drop to UU, but its not getting banned. great on HO as a sidegrade to iron-valiant where its the main speed control, it has amazing speed but somewhat middling attack. It's quite balanced since realistically you will never sweep with it againt a bulkier team. One thing about SV pokemon that i love but also find weird is how its physical attackers have really high special defense but its special attackers have high defense. Oh yea this mon is really good. The addition of triple axel turned this mon from good to amazing, tons of balance team get carried by this pokemon's ability to knock off items and threaten gliscor and roaring moon. seriously you need to try this pokemon now.Considering the meta is very balanced right now, for the Anti-Tera group, this would be a good time to start discussing it again and maybe have a second test roll around the midseasons of spl
Last edited: