Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Actually, what are people's thoughts on Heatran? I don't see it too much and it may be overlooked by power creep.

Alot of mons in the tier run Ground or Fighting coverage, which can make it difficult to splash Tran on teams. I’ve found success with Balloon Tran which lets it hardwall non-Dragon STAB Gfire and check Volc slightly better. You could also opt for Flame Body since it punishes the plethora of physical attackers in the tier, especially the T-Axel mashers.

it's been a week since the tier has been released and i think its very safe to say, that its the most balanced and fun SV has been.

One thing i always want from a tier is variety, fun factor and balance. Trying to keep the banlist as low as possible as long as the meta isn't broken is always a good thing, and that is what this meta is right now. Every playstyle is very fun to use, there are tons of room for creative picks like primarina, G-weezing, salamence. So i really would like to keep the meta as is.

The one thing i hated about DLC 1 meta was the reliance on Zapdos + Ting-Lu which makes for quite a boring meta of spamming paralysis and getting lucky, most game is about spamming thunder wave with glowking, dragapult and zapdos, and then having the endgame be enamorus or zamazenta 1v1. Its really hard to be creative since the top mons check eachother so well, and not using them is really shooting yourself in the foot.

With the release of stuff like gliscor and new moveset changes, the amount of viable pokemon has significantly increase and the barrier between the best pokemon and just great pokemon in general is very thin letting you build with more variety. For example, Gliscor no longer hogs the spiking role from ting-lu since whirlwind and the dark/ground spdef tank is really useful vs stuff like latios, raging bolt and roaring moon. Hex dragapult and Zamazenta no longer hogs the spot for the fast cleaner on more balance teams with the release of triple axel, Meowscarada and Weavile are now really good in these spots, hell even darkrai or deoxys-s can sometime do these roles. Every single playstyle have more variety to work with and they don't really overlap with eachother, every OU caliber mon have their uses and have their own niche. With that being said i do want to comment on some pokemon i find interesting.

While I wouldn't say the meta isn’t completely balanced. Moon is still busted, Deo-S is too effective at it’s job, and Kyu might end up broken in the future, I have to agree that the new additions help balance out the meta and it makes the SV OU feel fresh again. There are two mons that I’ve come to really love in this metagame that contribute to teambuilding.

Raging Bolt is fucking awesome. A bulky wallbreaker with priority. Having that Electric/Dragon typing with that bulk is just really nice to have for that Water resistance. You have no idea how much role compression that fills. Previously the role of priority was filled by mostly Gambit, Rilla, and Dnite. Electric priority is also incredibly useful to have with all the Tera Flyings in the world. Also it could just end games with a CM sweep outright.

Hydrapple has my favorite design but also has so much to offer in the builder. A bulky Regen pivot with the ability to break holes. Balance teams, especially Boots spam, longed for something like this. As a problem with Boots spam was that it is hard to slot in ways of making progress, since stuff like Band or Specs are off the table. Most Balance structures went with Pult, but it sometimes lacked that raw power in certain matchups. Hydrapple can not only check Boulder, Rilla, and Hamu in one slot, it could break. I’ve also messed around with AV and RH NP. Fantastic mon that will get better after tier shifts.

There is just a ton of off-meta picks that have resurfaced like you said. Keldeo, Primarina, G-Weez, Ttar. Hell I would argue Hippo has a niche in the meta, as it checks Gfire, Boulder, and can Whirlwind away pesky Booster mons. The meta isn’t perfect, but I never wanna go back to the bland broken mess of the previous metas.
 
While lugia is too powerful for ou due to its bulk with multiscale and access to calm mind to make psychically defensive sets capable of ending games, at least lugia has been overlooked and outclasseed to the point where it has barely any usage, where as lunala tended to have 7-5% usage in higher ladder ubers and was ranked A- and B+ in both ubers metagames it was usable in for an extended amount of time, evne if it falls off this generation theres a home for it, UUbers, so apart from the two best pokemon in the tier hitting it for 4x super effective damage, dropping lunala to ou isn’t logical

i don’t mean to bring back the whole “unbanning debate” so early into a new age of ou, but i keep hearing “unban lunala” of all things
 
Yo not to keep harping on this, but every time I see people’s lists of the most threatening mons in the meta I’m reminded tinkaton is such a solid counter to almost all of them. Meow darkrai and weavile get hard walled, even moon if you run balloon. It’s the perfect check to all the new dark/dragons running around, deo-s. And 95 base speed + encore/twave means this thing is far from setup fodder. Overall I’m liking this meta a lot and pre-dlc honestly was not the biggest fan, the disparity is massive. I’m really liking tink and scizor for anti-meta picks, and gouging fire/meow with axel have been putting in work.
 
Yo not to keep harping on this, but every time I see people’s lists of the most threatening mons in the meta I’m reminded tinkaton is such a solid counter to almost all of them. Meow darkrai and weavile get hard walled, even moon if you run balloon. It’s the perfect check to all the new dark/dragons running around, deo-s. And 95 base speed + encore/twave means this thing is far from setup fodder. Overall I’m liking this meta a lot and pre-dlc honestly was not the biggest fan, the disparity is massive. I’m really liking tink and scizor for anti-meta picks, and gouging fire/meow with axel have been putting in work.

Breaking my lurking streak here to encourage you to harp on because you can never champion Tinkaton enough, that mon is so much fun. Used to enjoy running Pickpocket sets to troll as showcased in some top RMTs but Mold Breaker is too good to pass up imo rn. I like to run both Encore + Twave to shut down a plethora of threats both proactively and on the switch. It can't be used recklessly but Steel / Fairy typing will never not be good.

Gouging Fire is absolutely cracked, would not be surprised if it got suspected eventually. That being said I echo others sentiments that are appreciating this meta a lot - there are some mons to keep an eye on and consider for future suspects, but I'm not clamoring for a ban on anything right now.
 
I've really really liked Gouging Fire + Skarm as a slightly more offensive alternative to Skarm + Ting Lu.


Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 212 HP / 128 SpD / 168 Spe
Careful Nature
- Burning Bulwark
- Morning Sun
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Tail

168 Spe outspeeds Adamant Dragonite, SpD investment since Skarm has the physical side of things covered -- 128 EVs gives you a SpD boost in opposing sun. I've run those two with SpD Swampert (ht/Morkal) to round out a defensive balance core to solid results.
I can see the benefit if outspeeding Adamant Dragonite, but not with those moves. Unless they Tera, Heat Crash doesn’t do much and you have two moves affected by priority.
I think you could aim for neutral nature Rillaboom.
EVs: 172 HP / 128 SpD / 208 Spe
Careful Nature
Or alternatively have enough speed to outspeed Jolly Kingambit like defensive Landorus-T does.
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 188 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
For comparison
Old
252 SpA Minior Meteor Beam vs. 212 HP / 128+ SpD Gouging Fire: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Minior Meteor Beam vs. 212 HP / 128+ SpD Protosynthesis Gouging Fire: 216-254 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

New
252 SpA Minior Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Gouging Fire: 264-312 (63.7 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Minior Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Protosynthesis Gouging Fire: 204-240 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Gouging Fire: 218-260 (52.6 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another speed tier you could technically run is 76 Spe to outspeed uninvested base 100s
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 152 SpD / 76 Spe
Careful Nature
New
252 SpA Minior Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Gouging Fire: 270-320 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Minior Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Protosynthesis Gouging Fire: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Gouging Fire: 228-270 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are other speed tiers you can get, and honestly outspeeding Rillaboom one sounds the best as Rillaboom is pretty relevant and you can always click Heat Crash instead of predicting U-turn or hard switch. Yeah do lose 41 or 23 Speed with other EV spreads, but there really isn’t anything relevant for anyways. Either rare Pokemon or Pokemon who will usually win with your moves like Raging Bolt or Pelipper.
 
Sun is proving to be the most dominant weather in OU right now by a wide margin.
I'm high key convinced that from release until DLC1, Sun HO was the best team style in the format by a wide margin and was just not played because people
A. Wanted to do other things
B. Didn't catch on to how cracked it was (for the most part)
C. Got bored of it whenever they did realize it

Also morkal please tell me that image wasn't ai generated I'm begging you
 
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I'm high key convinced that from release until DLC1, Sun HO was the best team style in the format by a wide margin and was just not played because people
A. Wanted to do other things
B. Didn't catch on to how cracked it was (for the most part)
C. Got bored of it whenever they did realize it
I concur. I have my fun with this silly little team. I like to test my team building skills and ability to account for the meta, even if it keeps my elo low. Don't mean to meme, but it's not too hard to make even a Vileplume put in work in this meta. Those Morkal posts are popular because those low leaugers manage to accomplish enough that they'll at least break the monotony without outright throwing (Morkepo here I go).

Then there's Sun, and I remember that, no, I need much more to play around it, this silly team wot be enough. Gouging F. is the last thing sun needed to push it into sheer dominance. It was always the best, but every other weather feels like a gimmick compared to it. The only solace is that most people I face either aren't skilled enough, meaning I can out-manuver, or haven't realized how scary Bulwark is.
 
I concur. I have my fun with this silly little team. I like to test my team building skills and ability to account for the meta, even if it keeps my elo low. Don't mean to meme, but it's not too hard to make even a Vileplume put in work in this meta. Those Morkal posts are popular because those low leaugers manage to accomplish enough that they'll at least break the monotony without outright throwing (Morkepo here I go).

Then there's Sun, and I remember that, no, I need much more to play around it, this silly team wot be enough. Gouging F. is the last thing sun needed to push it into sheer dominance. It was always the best, but every other weather feels like a gimmick compared to it. The only solace is that most people I face either aren't skilled enough, meaning I can out-manuver, or haven't realized how scary Bulwark is.
I think in DLC1 rain was the best weather but sun was by no means bad, there was just a lot more that could deal with it. Sun is definitely back to being the best weather tho
 
I think in DLC1 rain was the best weather but sun was by no means bad, there was just a lot more that could deal with it. Sun is definitely back to being the best weather tho
I agree with you as well. As I typed that, I was thinking about how I was able to simply slap a Water Tera Hatterene and go to town. Thats all I need to do to handle Sun then, but now we have more dinosaurs and shit and I can't keep up.

I'm so glad Torkal is getting so much respect, I never would have guessed back in Sapphire.
 
I've decided to play OU again and you people are so fucking wrong about gambit. I cannot believe that this thing is allowed in the tier. On paper it's easier to manage but in practice literally everything that handles gambit is tasked with handling other things so they don't handle gambit as well. You people are insane. Ban this thing yesterday.
 
I've decided to play OU again and you people are so fucking wrong about gambit. I cannot believe that this thing is allowed in the tier. On paper it's easier to manage but in practice literally everything that handles gambit is tasked with handling other things so they don't handle gambit as well. You people are insane. Ban this thing yesterday.
What are you using to counter Gambit?
 
After reading it here have people tried more Raging Fury? The fact that it is a non contact move is crazy and if someone can confirm that it works I am going to try it on Paradox Entei.

------
I do not see Heatran often, is there a good Non-Magma Storm Set?
On CB sets you should have both Flare Blitz and Raging Bull imo. The power under sun is quite unreasonable, resists don't mean much to it. Scale Shot lets it outspeed Pult at +1 even with adamant so it has cleaning potential too.

Specs Wake + Band Fire in sun with a hat is a free pass to the serious elos.
 
I've decided to play OU again and you people are so fucking wrong about gambit. I cannot believe that this thing is allowed in the tier. On paper it's easier to manage but in practice literally everything that handles gambit is tasked with handling other things so they don't handle gambit as well. You people are insane. Ban this thing yesterday.
I've been personally running a lot of Alomomola + Great Tusk, so I don't really notice Gambit much.
 
Tusk, Heatran with a 200 speed stat and will o wisp, fucking keldeo, tera dark on basically any psychic type I expect to be alive in the mid-late game.

Either your Tran got worn down or Wisp missed/Gambit was Lum. I assume this also happened to your Keldeo.

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 338-398 (104.6 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gambit is goofy as shit.

All that said, I do think that checking Gambit has become more consistent due to the new additions. ID Skarm being the most consistent one outside of the rare Tera Ghost. Volcarona can threaten with burns or let Flame Body do the job. The tier also gained a new strong priority user via Raging Bolt which discourages Tera Flying attempts, thus making it easier for fighting types like Tusk or Zama to check it. Does this mean Gambit is healthy? I don’t know. Due to Skarm and other meta trends, the meta seems to be managing Gambit well, but Gambit always finds a way to be busted. Even with Mola, Cinder, Tusk, and Encore spam in the last meta, Gambit was dumb as shit. At least this time we have a splashable one size fits all check to Gambit that can make progress via Spikes.
 
Tusk, Heatran with a 200 speed stat and will o wisp, fucking keldeo, tera dark on basically any psychic type I expect to be alive in the mid-late game.
My advice, use Cobalion with a set of Calm Mind, Flash Cannon, Aura Sphere, and Tera Blast with Tera Electric. This covers Tera Fairy and Flying. It has fantastic Physical Bulk, allowing it to devour the hits of Gambit, but just in case, run Leftovers. Also, run 56 speed, with 200 Attack, and max HP. This is what netted me the best results,
 
It's funny how much of a difference using am actually good team does to your SR. I was fuzting about in the 1400s using trick room. Why? Firstly because Deoxys-D :deoxys-defense: is a neat trick room setter due to trick room, teleport, and hazards for role compression. And secondly because :ursaluna: Ursaluna OHKO-ing stuff with no setup gives me those endorphins I need to keep living.

Then I built a whole new team with Tusk, Heatran, Rillaboom, Darkrai, with the twist of a setup Latias :latias: with grassy seed and suddenly I'm up to the 1800s. Shout outs to Banded Scizor :scizor: who has been a fantastic addition. Catching a Tusk on the switch with a terrain boosted, technician boosted trailblaze doesn't quite give me the same endorphins as Ursaluna, but it's close.

Roaring Moon :roaring-moon: is the only mon I'd vote ban on right now. Volcarona :volcarona: has been a problem too, but it feels more matchup-fishy depending on what moves it has. It was funny being able to completely wall one with Latias since tera ground is the most common tera and a lot of them don't run bug buzz. On the flip side, Heatran is just not a counter to it anymore. Can't even toxic it, and some of them even setup in your face.

Speaking of Heatran :heatran:, I love having flame body on this thing. Burning everything from Meowscarada, Cinderace, even stuff like Tusk and Lando if you're ballsy enough to switch in on a u-turn or stay in on a rapid spin. What's great is, unlike Moltres, people don't play around you having it, so you get so many cheap-ass burns off doing the unexpected. No fire immunity hardly matters when nobody wants to shoot off a fire move into a Heatran in the first place.

Deoxys-Speed :deoxys-speed: is absolutely not banworthy in the slightest. It's not even the best hazard setter when you have auto-setting Samurott and immortal Ting-Lu and Gliscor. What is neat about it is the variety, since you're never sure if it's screens or scarf trick or life orb or hazards on preview, but that doesn't make it broken.

Hazards are kinda broken though. I don't really know what the answer is, as I'm simply not convinced banning Gholdengo :gholdengo: will solve the issue. There's too many incredible hazard setters and too few removers. The only defoggers worth even considering in OU are Corv and Mandibuzz, both of whom get shut down by taunt on Gliscor or Samurott. It's not like there aren't other great spinblocker options with Dragapult, or even more niche options like Ceruledge or Matcha Gatcha. I guess boots-spam is our only saviour.

Anyways, fun meta. Will now tune out until the UU drops
 
:sv/Alomomola:

This Mon is where it’s at. Great Archaludon support, and walls stuff like Kingambit, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder, Dragonite and Great Tusk.The usual Wish passer with Flip Turn and Scald is just so great. Regenerator makes fish here nearly impossible to get rid of, and it can swap into nearly any unboosted Physical Attack, then Flip Turn off the damage and bring a threatening Mon in safety. Especially great Kingambit diffuse via Scald.

> 252 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 256-303 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

> 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-231 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Crazy.
 
do you think that ability shield would be a viable item on hatterene?
both deoxys speed and ribombee are running skill swap specifically for hatterene after all.
another option: put skill swap on hatterene, predict their skill swap, and take your magic bounce back on the same turn. ability shield is way more dependable, but saying "oh no you don't, give that back" is infinitely funnier. bonus points: you can screw over gliscor sometimes in an equally funny way
:sv/Alomomola:

This Mon is where it’s at. Great Archaludon support, and walls stuff like Kingambit, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder, Dragonite and Great Tusk.The usual Wish passer with Flip Turn and Scald is just so great. Regenerator makes fish here nearly impossible to get rid of, and it can swap into nearly any unboosted Physical Attack, then Flip Turn off the damage and bring a threatening Mon in safety. Especially great Kingambit diffuse via Scald.

> 252 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 256-303 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

> 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-231 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Crazy.
there's only one kind of react that's appropriate for this post and it's the one i would have done anyway
 
It's probably the era with the most viable playstyles in SV. Not all of them are consistent all the time, but they are USABLE.
In technical terms, we can say that although variety is not exactly balance, but we have an "enjoyable" meta.
That said, discounting a Deoxys-S here and a Paradox or two there, it seems like a good time to reevaluate Terastal, before a late ban sets back all future development in the tier.
We can still play around and establish what is "standard" and how Terastal will be used to break it, but now is the time, imo. Merry Christmas.
 
I have sacrificed elo for the greater good to tell my fellow Smogonites that; Porygon-Z is mid and Landorus-T is also mid. Porygon-Z was "fun" to use being able to threaten Great Tusk, and get a surprise KO with Tera + Adaptability was fun when it worked. Just too many high speed, hard hitting threats for Porygon-Z to really do anything. Lando-T I also gave a fair chance, and it was... eh. Like it wasn't bad, it did what it needed to do most games, but just felt super mid alot of the times. Boy really misses Knock, Defog, and Toxic.

And Yes before anyone says "well duh!" I wanted to channel my inner Morkal, and try something different. It didn't work, probably bad at team building lol.
 
I have sacrificed elo for the greater good to tell my fellow Smogonites that; Porygon-Z is mid and Landorus-T is also mid. Porygon-Z was "fun" to use being able to threaten Great Tusk, and get a surprise KO with Tera + Adaptability was fun when it worked. Just too many high speed, hard hitting threats for Porygon-Z to really do anything. Lando-T I also gave a fair chance, and it was... eh. Like it wasn't bad, it did what it needed to do most games, but just felt super mid alot of the times. Boy really misses Knock, Defog, and Toxic.

And Yes before anyone says "well duh!" I wanted to channel my inner Morkal, and try something different. It didn't work, probably bad at team building lol.
Trying to find a safe setup opportunity with PorgyZ can be rough. Middling Speed tier, awful bulk, basically no resistances. You're very reliant on trying to threaten out something with your power. In the case of something like Tusk, you'd want to make sure they wouldn't have anything to wall PorgyZ after it sets up and ensure they'd still want to keep their Tusk healthy (e.g. you have a Kingambit in the back). This guy still struggles as a result of these faults though.
 
Trying to find a safe setup opportunity with PorgyZ can be rough. Middling Speed tier, awful bulk, basically no resistances. You're very reliant on trying to threaten out something with your power. In the case of something like Tusk, you'd want to make sure they wouldn't have anything to wall PorgyZ after it sets up and ensure they'd still want to keep their Tusk healthy (e.g. you have a Kingambit in the back). This guy still struggles as a result of these faults though.
Would choice scarf porygon-z work? It would solve the speed issue and it did work on a Gen 4 team I used. Granted that is Gen 4, where Garchomp is banned so that isn't much. I don't know if the power loss would be too much, so you could maybe use download and hope for a sp.A boost, while losing a bit of power on stab.
 
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