Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Conflux123 said:
I don’t agree with you about chess. There are so many viable openings in chess, that it is literally up to what opening you like the best. (Within reason don’t go off playing the grob lol.) The reason Anand and Magnus keep playing the Berlin is that is what they are comfortable with and have the most experience with. Furthermore I also disagree with you about overcentralizing metagames being normal. There are more examples of wide open metagames, like in the Pokémon tcg there have been formats where there were so many good decks that you just chose the one you were comfortable with and stick with it. I think it really comes down to what overcentralizing means. For me, it’s when only a couple mons are good and viable. That’s definitely not healthy. My take is that there is a wide variety of mons that can do well in this format: so the meta isn’t even overcentralized in the first place.
Click to expand...
And people use meow + kyurem because it’s what they’re comfortable with. There are many other Pokémon/team structures that are viable now as well, and just because people are gravitating towards meow + kyurem right now does not imply a healthy meta game. The same was the Berlin being used a dozen times on top play didn’t imply chess is broken. That is the main point I’m trying to make, let me give you an example through.

would you agree, that Ttar in Adv Is over centralizing? I certainly would, however you still don’t see Ttar on every single team and the meta is still healthy so what’s the issue? This meta is certainly centralized to an extent if tusk or gambit sits at %40 usage, I’m just saying that’s not a big deal and it will always end up this way. I think the priority should be making a meta that is skill based and not purely reliant on matchup.

if all Pokémon tcg decks are equally viable and you can “pick whatever you want” then how come they have a tiering system like we do where certain decks are S rank? Like what you said just isn’t true tbh.
 
ok I'm gonna post some sauce I've been working with to mild success (back in the 1400s baby!)
Deoxys-Speed @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psycho Boost
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off

To answer some preliminary questions:

1. Why Choice Band?
Because it's, at least in my experience, the choice item that is the least useful on the most amount of pokemon. Scarf Deo-S is a fucking meme and I really hate giving things scarf in general and specs, while boosting psycho boost, does kinda just boost a bunch of special attackers too which can be an issue.

2. Why Tera Psychic?
Psychoboost go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

3. If you're using it with the heatran set you mentioned earlier, why rocks?
Because I'm a gen 7 player at heart and I respect stealth rocks the most out of any hazard in the game

4. Why Knock Off?
It's the best move in the game lmao

This set unironically works well, it can even gimp trick room (meme playstyle I know) rather effectively by just forcing their hatt or cress into being banded as they set up room. No momentum for u!
 
Munchkin Marvin said:

Choice Item Triple Dinosaur Sun is the most fun I've had in this silly game in a long time. I'm blindly clicking buttons and for some reason almost at 1900. There's very little thought required behind this team. Defensive backbone? Opposing Resists? What are those?

Just get a dino in where there are no immunities, click tera, and then fire away. It's really BS and your opponents have every right to be mad about it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 290-342 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 393-463 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:gouging fire:
Fire Move (Gouging Fire) @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Heat Crash
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Just absurd power. everyone panic switches because Dragon Dance sets are so scary. Then something just dies. Go faster than Monke

:walking wake:
Water Move (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flip Turn
- Flamethrower

Nothing new. Click the water button.

:raging bolt:
Electric Move (Raging Bolt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Weather Ball
- Thunderclap

Specs Draco is so juiced up. It's really crazy. There is room to explore the Tera Type, 4th move, and EVs. I think you need weather ball, since goofy guys will try try to use Iron Treads. Tera Grass Solar Beam destroys Ting-Lu. Magnet + Calm Mind is a great bluff and sweeper. Tera Fairy to 1v1 opposing dragons. This thing also unfairly fat.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Tera Electric Raging Bolt: 351-414 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO wtf

:Great Tusk: spicy set
Rapid Spin Hog (Great Tusk) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat
- Temper Flare
- Headlong Rush

4 Atk Tera Fire Great Tusk Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 350-414 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO. One tweak you can consider is putting Sunny Day on Great Tusk. This is a great way to control the weather.

vs: :Dondozo::Blissey::Landorus-therian::Sinistcha::Weezing Galar::Cinderace:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023195689?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023236917?p2​

In place of :Great Tusk: and :Kingambit:, I've toyed with things. like :Roaring Moon:+:Iron Treads:. :Archaludon:+:Rillaboom:, :Venusaur:, and even :Brute Bonnet:. The biggest challenge can be strong late game priority coming from a :dragonite:or the obvious fairy and ice weaknesses that emerge with this many dragon types. Maybe fat :volcarona: would be cool.

Has anyone else had success making a team around all three of these absolute behemoths in Sun? How do you support them?
Click to expand...

Ive also been testing Dyno sun teams and they are great but sometimes the triples Dragon weaknesses and also some ground weakness shows up.

Imo this type of teams need some levitate/flying type 100% of the time. They also really enjoy having some steel/fairy.

Imo one of the best Tera types for both Raging Bolt and Gougin Fire is Tera fairy, as it removes the ground weakness and usualy grants them inmunity to the RK draco meteor attemps. It also can add offensive value in Gouging Fire with Tera Blast, helping deal with Tusks and few others thanks to the extra coverage.

Personally ive been testing in the 1700 some Aurora Veil + Webs with Gouging Fire and few other set up mons and its going quite well, only game I lost so far was because hax critted to death 3 times lmao

Tldr: Gouging fire is amazing and lots of fun, specially under sun. It offers so much flexibility and power in building
 
Munchkin Marvin said:

Choice Item Triple Dinosaur Sun is the most fun I've had in this silly game in a long time. I'm blindly clicking buttons and for some reason almost at 1900. There's very little thought required behind this team. Defensive backbone? Opposing Resists? What are those?

Just get a dino in where there are no immunities, click tera, and then fire away. It's really BS and your opponents have every right to be mad about it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 290-342 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Fire Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Sun: 252-297 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 393-463 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:gouging fire:
Fire Move (Gouging Fire) @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Heat Crash
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Just absurd power. everyone panic switches because Dragon Dance sets are so scary. Then something just dies. Go faster than Monke

:walking wake:
Water Move (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Flip Turn
- Flamethrower

Nothing new. Click the water button.

:raging bolt:
Electric Move (Raging Bolt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Weather Ball
- Thunderclap

Specs Draco is so juiced up. It's really crazy. There is room to explore the Tera Type, 4th move, and EVs. I think you need weather ball, since goofy guys will try try to use Iron Treads. Tera Grass Solar Beam destroys Ting-Lu. Magnet + Calm Mind is a great bluff and sweeper. Tera Fairy to 1v1 opposing dragons. This thing also unfairly fat.

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Tera Electric Raging Bolt: 351-414 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO wtf

:Great Tusk: spicy set
Rapid Spin Hog (Great Tusk) @ Eject Pack
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat
- Temper Flare
- Headlong Rush

4 Atk Tera Fire Great Tusk Temper Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 350-414 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO. One tweak you can consider is putting Sunny Day on Great Tusk. This is a great way to control the weather.

vs: :Dondozo::Blissey::Landorus-therian::Sinistcha::Weezing Galar::Cinderace:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023195689?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2023236917?p2​

In place of :Great Tusk: and :Kingambit:, I've toyed with things. like :Roaring Moon:+:Iron Treads:. :Archaludon:+:Rillaboom:, :Venusaur:, and even :Brute Bonnet:. The biggest challenge can be strong late game priority coming from a :dragonite:or the obvious fairy and ice weaknesses that emerge with this many dragon types. Maybe fat :volcarona: would be cool.

Has anyone else had success making a team around all three of these absolute behemoths in Sun? How do you support them?
Click to expand...
have you considered slotting in raging fury on gouging fire? it's got the disadvantage of trapping you, but if your opponent doesn't have an immediate offensive answer to gouging it straight-up doesn't matter, and no recoil gives you a lot more longevity than flare blitz. probably works best against stall teams because they literally have zero answers against sun band gouging besides "wait for it to die from recoil". maybe slot it in over heat crash? i dunno.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
have you considered slotting in raging fury on gouging fire? it's got the disadvantage of trapping you, but if your opponent doesn't have an immediate offensive answer to gouging it straight-up doesn't matter, and no recoil gives you a lot more longevity than flare blitz. probably works best against stall teams because they literally have zero answers against sun band gouging besides "wait for it to die from recoil". maybe slot it in over heat crash? i dunno.
Click to expand...
That’s fair, getting locked into a fire move is way better than a dragon move, especially since the only real fire answers are heatran, walking wake, and opposing gouging flame. This isn’t even that bad if sun is up: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Gouging Fire Raging Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gouging Fire: 84-99 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Not half bad for a bulky 4x resist lmfao
 
EpicGuy321 said:
I took Incineroar to top 500. RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...1741-and-still-climbing.3733372/#post-9912027
Click to expand...
Honestly? Very happy to be proven wrong on this. Wanting your favorites to be good is one of the best mindsets to have. I'm pretty happy that, when I played the villain and told you it was a bad idea, you proved me wrong and got that far. With the exact same set I criticized too, damn.

I concede. Incineroar is cool and better than I thought. Good job.
 
EpicGuy321 said:
I took Incineroar to top 500. RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...1741-and-still-climbing.3733372/#post-9912027
Click to expand...
It's great to see people use their favourites to climb high on the ladder. You were able to shore up incineroar's weaknesses with your teamates to get the best out of incineroar's positives. Technically, any mon can work, you just need to find their niche and support them with relevant teammates. I will also concede I was wrong about Incineroar.
 
Heatranator said:
It's great to see people use their favourites to climb high on the ladder. You were able to shore up incineroar's weaknesses with your teamates to get the best out of incineroar's positives. Technically, any mon can work, you just need to find their niche and support them with relevant teammates. I will also concede I was wrong about Incineroar.
Click to expand...
Someone needs to hit top 500 with luvdisc to prove this theory correct
 
Gondre19Wedj said:
But for now, I'm sorry, you aren't going to win many people over to getting Incin to high ladder. If you or someone else does to spite me, all the power to you, but I highly highly doubt that'll happen.
Click to expand...
EpicGuy321 said:
I took Incineroar to top 500. RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...1741-and-still-climbing.3733372/#post-9912027
Click to expand...
IMG_1182.jpeg
 
If Urshifu and Volcarona were both incorrectly handled by the Council as they admit, are we getting a retest of them anytime soon? Especially considering how the power level of the tier has risen significantly since then.
 
Ayman said:
If Urshifu and Volcarona were both incorrectly handled by the Council as they admit, are we getting a retest of them anytime soon? Especially considering how the power level of the tier has risen significantly since then.
Click to expand...
I mean, volcarona is OU, so that has been handled. As for urshifu, I don't believe they were mishandled? Despite that, I haven't seen many people clammering for their unban. Simply put, urshifu-RS destroys all forms of counterplay against physical users, besides burn which most will-o-wisp mons not named dragapult can never come into urshifu, plus having a good speed tier with insane power pushed even further by swords dance. That's not even including unseen fists, which ignores protect. Urshifu-RS is too strong for OU, it does too much damage. Urshifu-S is not even up for debate, that was broken in Gen 8, it would be even more broken now with swords dance.
 
Ayman said:
If Urshifu and Volcarona were both incorrectly handled by the Council as they admit, are we getting a retest of them anytime soon? Especially considering how the power level of the tier has risen significantly since then.
Click to expand...
I would not consider Urshifu mishandled, nor would I want either of them in OU. Rain is very fun and varied right now, it doesn't need Urshifu-Rapid Strike to make a mess of things by polarizing everything around who can handle it. And it's pretty obvious that Urshifu-Single Strike is too good for OU without some additional huge powercreep.
 
Ayman said:
If Urshifu and Volcarona were both incorrectly handled by the Council as they admit, are we getting a retest of them anytime soon? Especially considering how the power level of the tier has risen significantly since then.
Click to expand...
the handling may have been done incorrectly according to some (i think urshifu was handled correctly), but the result was absolutely correct both times. volc got multiple opportunities to be voted back down and was successful, and urshifu-rs got an opportunity during the pre-dlc2 survey. i wouldn't be averse to retesting urshifu-rs if the meta has no bans within the next several months, because i do think a lot of the new mons have neutral-to-positive matchups against it, but we still have yet to figure out if this is meta is stable or whether it's just metastable
 
Schpoonman said:
Scarf Ditto is a very classic revenge killer thanks to it being able to copy Speed Boosts and then apply a Scarf atop that. That being said, it's only as good as your opponent's team, and loses to Substitute very hard. I'm not sure how Imposter interacts with ProtoDrive, either
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure that it copies protodrive boosts. It’s really good against things that have coverage against themselves like dragapult and iron valiant.
 
Lethargic said:
And people use meow + kyurem because it’s what they’re comfortable with. There are many other Pokémon/team structures that are viable now as well, and just because people are gravitating towards meow + kyurem right now does not imply a healthy meta game. The same was the Berlin being used a dozen times on top play didn’t imply chess is broken. That is the main point I’m trying to make, let me give you an example through.

would you agree, that Ttar in Adv Is over centralizing? I certainly would, however you still don’t see Ttar on every single team and the meta is still healthy so what’s the issue? This meta is certainly centralized to an extent if tusk or gambit sits at %40 usage, I’m just saying that’s not a big deal and it will always end up this way. I think the priority should be making a meta that is skill based and not purely reliant on matchup.

if all Pokémon tcg decks are equally viable and you can “pick whatever you want” then how come they have a tiering system like we do where certain decks are S rank? Like what you said just isn’t true tbh.
Click to expand...
I meant the top tier decks were all equally viable in some formats. There was so much variety that most top players picked a top deck they liked and only played it throughout a format, making tweaks to it for certain metagames. Also I was literally saying that the meta was not overcentralised strictly because a lot of mons are viable now. I reread the original reply and realized it might not have been clear so sorry.
 
whats the current deal with Zapdos rn? Heard some folks in the OU chat on showdown say that it's probably gonna drop but I always ignore what they say completely out of principle. But overall I'm really not seeing it as much, Zapdos can't drop on us, he's him! Japes aside, he really isn't around as much, what are y'all's thoughts on it?
 
Hey everybody, just poppin' in quick with a demonic Gholdengo set that 1LDK and I cooked up.

250px-1000Gholdengo.png


G H O L D E N G O I S D A T B O I

:gholdengo:
Gholdengo @ Salac Berry
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast/Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
​
Gholdengo has pretty decent natural bulk, so this set (especially with Endure) allows Gholdengo to speed past some otherwise problematic threats such as Great Tusk by using a Salac Berry (+1 Speed Boost). If you predict carefully, you can have a +2 SpA +1 Speed Gholdengo in a single turn which can completely clean games. Endure for the Speed buff + to survive otherwise KOing hits, Shadow Ball for good STAB, Nasty Plot to boost, and for the Fighting move you have two options - Tera Blast Fighting is more accurate but less powerful and costs you a tera slot while Focus Blast frees up your tera slot to utilize more defensive typings for additional survivability and gives you more raw power with a SpDef drop chance, but you've got a very shaky 70% accuracy that could lose you games. I personally like Tera Blast while 1LDK likes Focus Blast, he's a better team builder than I am so Focus Blast is likely the most optimal choice for that slot, but I dig 100% accuracy's safety here which is why I run Tera Blast. Tera Fighting is already a good typing for Dhengo because of the Dark-type resistance, so I feel pretty happy with it.
 
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