Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Now that we're nearing the 3 week mark with no QBs or suspects imminently approaching, I wanted to share my thoughts on the metagame and the Pokemon that have everyone's attention. These are my thoughts, not those of the council!!

:deoxys-speed:
Shockingly positive!

I was very averse to Deoxys-Speed's presence in the metagame at first, especially with how potent of a lead it could be and its insane set variety, but some conversations with the council regarding the lead metagame and some direct application of said sets (and offensive sets) have led me to see it as a top tier presence, but one that is able to be checked quite well. Its defensive profile is paltry and priority smites it in general, which gives offense a ton of flexibility in handling it. Nasty Plot has the potential to be really dangerous and is the closest thing to broken at its disposal, especially with good support. That being said, that's really the case with any top tier, especially ones whose potency comes from more dedicated archetypes (like the Psychic Terrain teams you also see DeoS on). But with all that in mind, I've frankly enjoyed its utility and Speed tier in this metagame and with everything all said and done, it has a generally positive influence. I've really liked using offensive hazard-setting and all-out attacking variants, even if they are a bit rough to fit. I encourage you to give it a try if you haven't already.

:darkrai:
Outclassed..

I'm gonna be honest Darkrai bros, Darkrai... kind of sucks?? I feel like this metagame is chock full of Dark-types that are at each others' throats competing for a teamslot, and Darkrai isn't even in the top 5 of them imo. Hisuian Samurott, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Weavile, Ting Lu just to name a few. Each of these Pokemon provide something consistently desirable and applicable to teams, with their secondary typings admittedly playing a pretty big role in it and their gameplan. Darkrai's main niche over them is Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf, but even the former feels generally outclassed by Weavile/Roaring Moon as a boosting sweeper since Triple Axel is a nutty wincon with Tera Ice Shard to boot and Roaring Moon go brrnt respectively. This leaves Choice Scarf as an unoccupied niche within its competition, which is probably where it shines the most thanks to Trick access and a truly elite Speed tier. This set isn't bad at all, and is really nice as an anti-offense tool, but it's far from packing the utility and consistent progress-making I crave from other fast offensive Dark-types like Weavile and Meowscarada.

:iron-boulder:
Potent; keep an eye on, but not pressing

Iron Boulder plays a similar kind of role to Deoxys-Speed as the offensive check to end all offensive checks, but one that sets up easier and has a more consistent click in Mighty Cleave to make it more terrifying comparatively. Especially with Roaring Moon around, Iron Boulder rounds off offense extremely well by being an elite win condition and offensive check to much of the metagame. It brutally mauls offense but struggles into bulkier structures and balances featuring Ting Lu that have recently defined high ladder, which have formed naturally to combat many of the powerful new additions, including Iron Boulder itself. For offense players like myself it can feel oppressive (and I even thought it was at one point) but the metagame doesn't favor it to a point of top priority at the moment. I personally am keeping a close eye on it though; I've been seeing a lot of set innovations taking advantage of Tera and moves like Taunt and Substitute to flip the script on some bulkier teams.

:gouging-fire:
Help I do not know what I'm doing

Despite being the most standout target for a lot of the council I personally have no idea how to feel about it. On paper it is a monster that is extremely hard to stop with its bulk, Burn immunity, and access to recovery making it a win condition that can be very hard to break past and stop from running you down. But in practice I'm not quite sure if it's achieved the game warping result I've been hearing so much about, at least when I personally used it. I've also been really unlucky and been crit what feels like every time I set up with it, so maybe I'm just losing my mind and I'm running into bad Gouging Fire users to round my confusion off. I also believe I'm not running the cream of the crop of its sets; I'd be curious to know what sets you guys are running so I can take a more conclusive stance on it!

:raging-bolt:
Really, really good

This Pokemon is a fucking menace; Thunderclap aside, its bulk and raw power are truly asinine, and are what really make it stand out. Furthermore they are augmented by Booster Energy and access to Calm Mind. Even with a STAB combination that doesn't illicit the most fear compared to others, it very much so gets the job done given its bulk and ability to stack boosts and use Tera (Blast). However, the fact it can't boost its Speed without making some kind of major sacrifice unlike Gouging Fire plays a pretty major role in responding to it and gives Ground-types the ability to check it in most cases, which either requires it to sustain a hard hit or use Tera. I don't believe it is an unreasonable Pokemon to check since its Achilles heel really is Speed, which becomes very noticeable when your main checks (including offensive ones) are immune to your priority move, and when many offensive checks resist it (offensive Dragon-types).

:volcarona:
Potent; keep an eye on, but not pressing

Volcarona is... strange. I feel like in general it is not a pressing presence compared to its cohorts, as it does have considerably more stringent setup conditions compared to when it could freely run down teams earlier in the generation. It's one of those Pokemon that reads to me as something that is waiting for the correct development to truly achieve its earlier caliber of success; stresh's Tera Dragon idea is the one I've found the most success with alongside Water. That being said, it is still a behemoth win condition with much appreciated defensive utility to bat and demands your respect, lest it runs away with the game. Much like Iron Boulder it's something that I think needs time to be fully and effectively evaluated.

:gholdengo:
Overrated

DLC2 is a far more hostile environment to it and I think damages the argument many advocated for in DLC1. The fact of the matter is that Good as Gold is the core of its value, and while that cannot be understated, the whole package of Gholdengo is meeting far more pressure to be the effective removal immunity it was earlier in the generation. That aside, I don't think Gholdengo is really the core catalyst of Gen 9's hazard problem and removing it won't magically fix it, as other council members have already said. That being said, I do think Good as Gold and being a bulky Ghost-type makes it a Pokemon added to teams as a more dedicated answer to removal, which does include Rapid Spin, so removing Gholdengo from the tier would move the needle a bit imo but definitely not fix things due to the insane Spikes and Knock Off distribution. Of course though once things are more stable I am very happy to look into it more, but compared to the rest of the metagame I am not a fan of prioritizing it at all.

:kyurem:
My top candidate

If there's a Pokemon I personally am the most wary of, it is Kyurem. While losing Roost is an extreme blow to it, access to Loaded Dice and Tera (Blast) lets it ditch the bulky Dragon Dance shenanigans it got up to last generation and go full throttle, while still being a Pokemon that rips everything apart with its Special attacks and adding a layer of unpredictability to complicate counterplay. Both sets are warping in their own right and apply pressure in a way I personally don't see as healthy, especially when you factor in its Speed tier, Dragon-type, and natural bulk. It detests hazard stacking against it as HDB are rough to fit on it given what you want to use it for, but two things: 1: Cinderace is an amazing partner for it and 2: HDB AoA is still very potent even without a damage boosting item. I personally feel as though Kyurem would be my personal choice for what we target first, but I am still open to being convinced otherwise.

:roaring-moon:
Potent; keep an eye on

Roaring Moon is really rough to navigate, but as potent as I think it is, I also think it has its share of checks to help you bring it down. When you factor in its disliking of priority, hazards, status, and a good amount of physically bulky options to pressure it (since it can't hit a ton super effectively), the many high ladder balances we are seeing very clearly have their share of options to contain it. Though, I would say it being contained is more relative to a card castle or a late stage Jenga game. It is undoubtedly a top tier Pokemon and I do think it is treading very close to being something that is worth a suspect as it reaps upon stability imo, but while we continue to figure out this metagame and determine what the problems of it actually are, I don't quite see this as a broken checking broken situation; it's more complicated than that. If it isn't naturally prioritized then I don't really think I would clamor to see it removed ASAP, but if it's removed I'm not really gonna complain.

:kingambit:
Really good, but not broken

I never really thought Kingambit was on the level of broken as others have; maybe it was troll of me to say it took skill to use early on, but I do think it's a bit of a rougher climate for Kingambit than it was before and does make it more complicated to use to its fullest. This metagame is being dominated hardcore by bulky Sucker Punch resistances and disruptive Teras that impede its gameplan. But despite that, its healthy qualities do stand out more than they have before with the broken elements being a bit suppressed, so I'm honestly pretty chill with its place in the current metagame.

:enamorus:
Ban Tera Blast

This speaks for itself, lol. Enamorus is fine without Stellar Tera Blast.

____

If I had to rank things based on how pressing/broken I see them, my top five would rank as follows:

1: Kyurem
2: Enamorus/Tera Blast
3: Roaring Moon
4: Volcarona
5: Iron Boulder

(I'm not rating Gouging Fire yet because I don't know what I'm doing with it LOL. tentatively above roaring moon ig)

Hope this was informative!
 
Now that we're nearing the 3 week mark with no QBs or suspects imminently approaching, I wanted to share my thoughts on the metagame and the Pokemon that have everyone's attention. These are my thoughts, not those of the council!!

:deoxys-speed:
Shockingly positive!

I was very averse to Deoxys-Speed's presence in the metagame at first, especially with how potent of a lead it could be and its insane set variety, but some conversations with the council regarding the lead metagame and some direct application of said sets (and offensive sets) have led me to see it as a top tier presence, but one that is able to be checked quite well. Its defensive profile is paltry and priority smites it in general, which gives offense a ton of flexibility in handling it. Nasty Plot has the potential to be really dangerous and is the closest thing to broken at its disposal, especially with good support. That being said, that's really the case with any top tier, especially ones whose potency comes from more dedicated archetypes (like the Psychic Terrain teams you also see DeoS on). But with all that in mind, I've frankly enjoyed its utility and Speed tier in this metagame and with everything all said and done, it has a generally positive influence. I've really liked using offensive hazard-setting and all-out attacking variants, even if they are a bit rough to fit. I encourage you to give it a try if you haven't already.

:darkrai:
Outclassed..

I'm gonna be honest Darkrai bros, Darkrai... kind of sucks?? I feel like this metagame is chock full of Dark-types that are at each others' throats competing for a teamslot, and Darkrai isn't even in the top 5 of them imo. Hisuian Samurott, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Weavile, Ting Lu just to name a few. Each of these Pokemon provide something consistently desirable and applicable to teams, with their secondary typings admittedly playing a pretty big role in it and their gameplan. Darkrai's main niche over them is Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf, but even the former feels generally outclassed by Weavile as a boosting sweeper since Triple Axel is a nutty wincon with Tera Ice Shard to boot. This leaves Choice Scarf as an unoccupied niche within its competition, which is probably where it shines the most thanks to Trick access and a truly elite Speed tier. This set isn't bad at all, and is really nice as an anti-offense tool, but it's far from packing the utility and consistent progress-making I crave from other fast offensive Dark-types like Weavile and Meowscarada.

:iron-boulder:
Potent; keep an eye on, but not pressing

Iron Boulder plays a similar kind of role to Deoxys-Speed as the offensive check to end all offensive checks, but one that sets up easier and has a more consistent click in Mighty Cleave to make it more terrifying comparatively. Especially with Roaring Moon around, Iron Boulder rounds off offense extremely well by being an elite win condition and offensive check to much of the metagame. It brutally mauls offense but struggles into bulkier structures and balances featuring Ting Lu that have recently defined high ladder, which have formed naturally to combat many of the powerful new additions, including Iron Boulder itself. For offense players like myself it can feel oppressive (and I even thought it was at one point) but the metagame doesn't favor it to a point of top priority at the moment. I personally am keeping a close eye on it though; I've been seeing a lot of set innovations taking advantage of Tera and moves like Taunt and Substitute to flip the script on some bulkier teams.

:gouging-fire:
Help I do not know what I'm doing

Despite being the most standout target for a lot of the council I personally have no idea how to feel about it. On paper it is a monster that is extremely hard to stop with its bulk, Burn immunity, and access to recovery making it a win condition that can be very hard to break past and stop from running you down. But in practice I'm not quite sure if it's achieved the game warping result I've been hearing so much about, at least when I personally used it. I've also been really unlucky and been crit what feels like every time I set up with it, so maybe I'm just losing my mind and I'm running into bad Gouging Fire users to round my confusion off. I also believe I'm not running the cream of the crop of its sets; I'd be curious to know what sets you guys are running so I can take a more conclusive stance on it!

:raging-bolt:
Really, really good

This Pokemon is a fucking menace; Thunderclap aside, its bulk and raw power are truly asinine, and are what really make it stand out. Furthermore they are augmented by Booster Energy and access to Calm Mind. Even with a STAB combination that doesn't illicit the most fear compared to others, it very much so gets the job done given its bulk and ability to stack boosts and use Tera (Blast). However, the fact it can't boost its Speed without making some kind of major sacrifice unlike Gouging Fire plays a pretty major role in responding to it and gives Ground-types the ability to check it in most cases, which either requires it to sustain a hard hit or use Tera. I don't believe it is an unreasonable Pokemon to check since its Achilles heel really is Speed, which becomes very noticeable when your main checks (including offensive ones) are immune to your priority move, and when many offensive checks resist it (offensive Dragon-types).

:volcarona:
Potent; keep an eye on, but not pressing

Volcarona is... strange. I feel like in general it is not a pressing presence compared to its cohorts, as it does have considerably more stringent setup conditions compared to when it could freely run down teams earlier in the generation. It's one of those Pokemon that reads to me as something that is waiting for the correct development to truly achieve its earlier caliber of success; stresh's Tera Dragon idea is the one I've found the most success with alongside Water. That being said, it is still a behemoth win condition with much appreciated defensive utility to bat and demands your respect, lest it runs away with the game. Much like Iron Boulder it's something that I think needs time to be fully and effectively evaluated.

:gholdengo:
Overrated

DLC2 is a far more hostile environment to it and I think damages the argument many advocated for in DLC1. The fact of the matter is that Good as Gold is the core of its value, and while that cannot be understated, the whole package of Gholdengo is meeting far more pressure to be the effective removal immunity it was earlier in the generation. That aside, I don't think Gholdengo is really the core catalyst of Gen 9's hazard problem and removing it won't magically fix it, as other council members have already said. That being said, I do think Good as Gold and being a bulky Ghost-type makes it a Pokemon added to teams as a more dedicated answer to removal, which does include Rapid Spin, so removing Gholdengo from the tier would move the needle a bit imo but definitely not fix things due to the insane Spikes and Knock Off distribution. Of course though once things are more stable I am very happy to look into it more, but compared to the rest of the metagame I am not a fan of prioritizing it at all.

:kyurem:
My top candidate

If there's a Pokemon I personally am the most wary of, it is Kyurem. While losing Roost is an extreme blow to it, access to Loaded Dice and Tera (Blast) lets it ditch the bulky Dragon Dance shenanigans it got up to last generation and go full throttle, while still being a Pokemon that rips everything apart with its Special attacks and adding a layer of unpredictability to complicate counterplay. Both sets are warping in their own right and apply pressure in a way I personally don't see as healthy, especially when you factor in its Speed tier, Dragon-type, and natural bulk. It detests hazard stacking against it as HDB are rough to fit on it given what you want to use it for, but two things: 1: Cinderace is an amazing partner for it and 2: HDB AoA is still very potent even without a damage boosting item. I personally feel as though Kyurem would be my personal choice for what we target first, but I am still open to being convinced otherwise.

:roaring-moon:
Potent; keep an eye on

Roaring Moon is really rough to navigate, but as potent as I think it is, I also think it has its share of checks to help you bring it down. When you factor in its disliking of priority, hazards, status, and a good amount of physically bulky options to pressure it (since it can't hit a ton super effectively), the many high ladder balances we are seeing very clearly have their share of options to contain it. Though, I would say it being contained is more relative to a card castle or a late stage Jenga game. It is undoubtedly a top tier Pokemon and I do think it is treading very close to being something that is worth a suspect as it reaps upon stability imo, but while we continue to figure out this metagame and determine what the problems of it actually are, I don't quite see this as a broken checking broken situation; it's more complicated than that. If it isn't naturally prioritized then I don't really think I would clamor to see it removed ASAP, but if it's removed I'm not really gonna complain.

:kingambit:
Really good, but not broken

I never really thought Kingambit was on the level of broken as others have; maybe it was troll of me to say it took skill to use early on, but I do think it's a bit of a rougher climate for Kingambit than it was before and does make it more complicated to use to its fullest. This metagame is being dominated hardcore by bulky Sucker Punch resistances and disruptive Teras that impede its gameplan. But despite that, its healthy qualities do stand out more than they have before with the broken elements being a bit suppressed, so I'm honestly pretty chill with its place in the current metagame.

:enamorus:
Ban Tera Blast

This speaks for itself, lol. Enamorus is fine without Stellar Tera Blast.

____

If I had to rank things based on how pressing/broken I see them, my top five would rank as follows:

1: Kyurem
2: Enamorus/Tera Blast
3: Roaring Moon
4: Volcarona
5: Iron Boulder

(I'm not rating Gouging Fire yet because I don't know what I'm doing with it LOL. tentatively above roaring moon ig)

Hope this was informative!
This is just an idea but maybe we should ban the Stellar Type instead of Tera Blast. I mean the only two mons using Stellar are Serp and Enamorus and Tera Blast is used by a bunch of Pokemon.


Edit: I've said a bunch of dumb things but this is by far my most stupid idea.
 
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This is just an idea but maybe we should ban the Stellar Type instead of Tera Blast. I mean the only two mons using Stellar are Serp and Enamorus and Tera Blast is used by a bunch of Pokemon.

Stellar Tera has only been broken on Terapagos (we banned it) and with a quirk of a move that I already see as problematic anyway and can be tiered independently. If anything it's been really lackluster. I think Tera Blast would be the target here personally
 
:darkrai:
Outclassed..

I'm gonna be honest Darkrai bros, Darkrai... kind of sucks?? I feel like this metagame is chock full of Dark-types that are at each others' throats competing for a teamslot, and Darkrai isn't even in the top 5 of them imo. Hisuian Samurott, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Weavile, Ting Lu just to name a few. Each of these Pokemon provide something consistently desirable and applicable to teams, with their secondary typings admittedly playing a pretty big role in it and their gameplan. Darkrai's main niche over them is Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf, but even the former feels generally outclassed by Weavile/Roaring Moon as a boosting sweeper since Triple Axel is a nutty wincon with Tera Ice Shard to boot and Roaring Moon go brrnt respectively. This leaves Choice Scarf as an unoccupied niche within its competition, which is probably where it shines the most thanks to Trick access and a truly elite Speed tier. This set isn't bad at all, and is really nice as an anti-offense tool, but it's far from packing the utility and consistent progress-making I crave from other fast offensive Dark-types like Weavile and Meowscarada.
No mention of Hypnosis... interesting.
 
This is just an idea but maybe we should ban the Stellar Type instead of Tera Blast. I mean the only two mons using Stellar are Serp and Enamorus and Tera Blast is used by a bunch of Pokemon.
they're the only two mons using stellar tera blast. the type outside of tera blast has seen some usage on all-out attacker sets and in my opinion is a very interesting and underexplored offensive option for mons that really like keeping their typing or cleaners that might prefer having the extra one-time damage boost to everything instead of having a consistent boost to one thing. off the top of my head, iron boulder, iron valiant, and darkrai could potentially make use of the type, and i've witnessed offensive deo-s using it to great effect. just because it hasn't gained traction in the first couple weeks of the meta doesn't mean it has no presence here
 
Isn’t that… more reason to ban Tera Blast?
i think the three main reasons to ban tera blast are:
  1. it's not broken
  2. we shouldn't ban it
  3. very few of the banned mons were banned specifically because of their tera blast usage (exactly three out of twenty-one, one of which is back down now). all of the other bans still would likely have happened with tera blast gone, even with volc providing defensive utility and eleki providing… uh… whatever eleki provides
 
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I will say, what's the real difference between a call for a Tera Blast ban, and say a Booster Energy ban? In both cases only a handful of Pokemon are problematic with the move/item while other mons that can utilize the move/item and completely fine with it. Why in one case your called a Bozo for suggesting it while the other is seen as a perfectly fine way to bring the power level of the tier down. Doesn't really make much sense to be. In fact a Tera Blast ban seems way more disastrous for not only OU, but just every tier than a Booster Energy ban. Your just cutting a creative aspect of teambuilding that an option Tera Blast gives.
 
:Gliscor: does 80% to :iron boulder: with EQ/HH and only takes 60% from +2 Mighty Cleave, meaning it's a 3HKO after Poison Heal.

Your claim is actually off somewhat in the sense that Poison Heals a lot less than you think it does. A +2 Mighty Cleave is a roll to 2HKO Gliscor.

+2 252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

I'm not disputing your claim that Iron Boulder isn't broken, but Gliscor is 100% not an answer to Iron Boulder. Defensive Landorus-Therian being able to OHKO Iron Boulder if it doesn't Tera is one reason to use Lando over Gliscor, and I suspect that's the main reason Lando-T didn't drop to UU this time around.

Edit: Sorry about the wrong calc earlier. For some reason, the calc automatically gave an Attack boost even though it was set to a Jolly nature. I had to take Booster Energy off for it to calc properly.
 
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No mention of Hypnosis... interesting.
Remember that most of my argument against Darkrai was competition, and in a metagame like this consistency is incredibly important. Not only is Hypnosis a fish but you only get one coverage option which means you're pretty reliant on Bad Dreams, Hypnosis landing, Sleep turns going in your favor, and brute force to beat whatever checks your coverage option of choice. I did forget to mention it and it is a reason to consider it for NP sets ig but it's not even close to being a major niche for Darkrai.

very few of the banned mons were banned specifically because of their tera blast usage (exactly three out of twenty-one, one of which is back down now)

Even if this is so, there are more Pokemon than ever using Tera Blast to augment their coverage and it has been genuinely pushing several Pokemon to the edge imo. Kyurem, Volcarona, Enamorus, Serperior, Raging Bolt all have made noteworthy use of it of the currently legal mons and there are even more like Kingambit, Iron Moth, and Excadrill. I'd argue Tera Blast is a reason several of these Pokemon have even been elevated in the way they have.
 
Now that we're nearing the 3 week mark with no QBs or suspects imminently approaching, I wanted to share my thoughts on the metagame and the Pokemon that have everyone's attention. These are my thoughts, not those of the council!!

:deoxys-speed:
Shockingly positive!

I was very averse to Deoxys-Speed's presence in the metagame at first, especially with how potent of a lead it could be and its insane set variety, but some conversations with the council regarding the lead metagame and some direct application of said sets (and offensive sets) have led me to see it as a top tier presence, but one that is able to be checked quite well. Its defensive profile is paltry and priority smites it in general, which gives offense a ton of flexibility in handling it. Nasty Plot has the potential to be really dangerous and is the closest thing to broken at its disposal, especially with good support. That being said, that's really the case with any top tier, especially ones whose potency comes from more dedicated archetypes (like the Psychic Terrain teams you also see DeoS on). But with all that in mind, I've frankly enjoyed its utility and Speed tier in this metagame and with everything all said and done, it has a generally positive influence. I've really liked using offensive hazard-setting and all-out attacking variants, even if they are a bit rough to fit. I encourage you to give it a try if you haven't already.

:darkrai:
Outclassed..

I'm gonna be honest Darkrai bros, Darkrai... kind of sucks?? I feel like this metagame is chock full of Dark-types that are at each others' throats competing for a teamslot, and Darkrai isn't even in the top 5 of them imo. Hisuian Samurott, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Weavile, Ting Lu just to name a few. Each of these Pokemon provide something consistently desirable and applicable to teams, with their secondary typings admittedly playing a pretty big role in it and their gameplan. Darkrai's main niche over them is Nasty Plot and Choice Scarf, but even the former feels generally outclassed by Weavile/Roaring Moon as a boosting sweeper since Triple Axel is a nutty wincon with Tera Ice Shard to boot and Roaring Moon go brrnt respectively. This leaves Choice Scarf as an unoccupied niche within its competition, which is probably where it shines the most thanks to Trick access and a truly elite Speed tier. This set isn't bad at all, and is really nice as an anti-offense tool, but it's far from packing the utility and consistent progress-making I crave from other fast offensive Dark-types like Weavile and Meowscarada.

:iron-boulder:
Potent; keep an eye on, but not pressing

Iron Boulder plays a similar kind of role to Deoxys-Speed as the offensive check to end all offensive checks, but one that sets up easier and has a more consistent click in Mighty Cleave to make it more terrifying comparatively. Especially with Roaring Moon around, Iron Boulder rounds off offense extremely well by being an elite win condition and offensive check to much of the metagame. It brutally mauls offense but struggles into bulkier structures and balances featuring Ting Lu that have recently defined high ladder, which have formed naturally to combat many of the powerful new additions, including Iron Boulder itself. For offense players like myself it can feel oppressive (and I even thought it was at one point) but the metagame doesn't favor it to a point of top priority at the moment. I personally am keeping a close eye on it though; I've been seeing a lot of set innovations taking advantage of Tera and moves like Taunt and Substitute to flip the script on some bulkier teams.

:gouging-fire:
Help I do not know what I'm doing

Despite being the most standout target for a lot of the council I personally have no idea how to feel about it. On paper it is a monster that is extremely hard to stop with its bulk, Burn immunity, and access to recovery making it a win condition that can be very hard to break past and stop from running you down. But in practice I'm not quite sure if it's achieved the game warping result I've been hearing so much about, at least when I personally used it. I've also been really unlucky and been crit what feels like every time I set up with it, so maybe I'm just losing my mind and I'm running into bad Gouging Fire users to round my confusion off. I also believe I'm not running the cream of the crop of its sets; I'd be curious to know what sets you guys are running so I can take a more conclusive stance on it!

:raging-bolt:
Really, really good

This Pokemon is a fucking menace; Thunderclap aside, its bulk and raw power are truly asinine, and are what really make it stand out. Furthermore they are augmented by Booster Energy and access to Calm Mind. Even with a STAB combination that doesn't illicit the most fear compared to others, it very much so gets the job done given its bulk and ability to stack boosts and use Tera (Blast). However, the fact it can't boost its Speed without making some kind of major sacrifice unlike Gouging Fire plays a pretty major role in responding to it and gives Ground-types the ability to check it in most cases, which either requires it to sustain a hard hit or use Tera. I don't believe it is an unreasonable Pokemon to check since its Achilles heel really is Speed, which becomes very noticeable when your main checks (including offensive ones) are immune to your priority move, and when many offensive checks resist it (offensive Dragon-types).

:volcarona:
Potent; keep an eye on, but not pressing

Volcarona is... strange. I feel like in general it is not a pressing presence compared to its cohorts, as it does have considerably more stringent setup conditions compared to when it could freely run down teams earlier in the generation. It's one of those Pokemon that reads to me as something that is waiting for the correct development to truly achieve its earlier caliber of success; stresh's Tera Dragon idea is the one I've found the most success with alongside Water. That being said, it is still a behemoth win condition with much appreciated defensive utility to bat and demands your respect, lest it runs away with the game. Much like Iron Boulder it's something that I think needs time to be fully and effectively evaluated.

:gholdengo:
Overrated

DLC2 is a far more hostile environment to it and I think damages the argument many advocated for in DLC1. The fact of the matter is that Good as Gold is the core of its value, and while that cannot be understated, the whole package of Gholdengo is meeting far more pressure to be the effective removal immunity it was earlier in the generation. That aside, I don't think Gholdengo is really the core catalyst of Gen 9's hazard problem and removing it won't magically fix it, as other council members have already said. That being said, I do think Good as Gold and being a bulky Ghost-type makes it a Pokemon added to teams as a more dedicated answer to removal, which does include Rapid Spin, so removing Gholdengo from the tier would move the needle a bit imo but definitely not fix things due to the insane Spikes and Knock Off distribution. Of course though once things are more stable I am very happy to look into it more, but compared to the rest of the metagame I am not a fan of prioritizing it at all.

:kyurem:
My top candidate

If there's a Pokemon I personally am the most wary of, it is Kyurem. While losing Roost is an extreme blow to it, access to Loaded Dice and Tera (Blast) lets it ditch the bulky Dragon Dance shenanigans it got up to last generation and go full throttle, while still being a Pokemon that rips everything apart with its Special attacks and adding a layer of unpredictability to complicate counterplay. Both sets are warping in their own right and apply pressure in a way I personally don't see as healthy, especially when you factor in its Speed tier, Dragon-type, and natural bulk. It detests hazard stacking against it as HDB are rough to fit on it given what you want to use it for, but two things: 1: Cinderace is an amazing partner for it and 2: HDB AoA is still very potent even without a damage boosting item. I personally feel as though Kyurem would be my personal choice for what we target first, but I am still open to being convinced otherwise.

:roaring-moon:
Potent; keep an eye on

Roaring Moon is really rough to navigate, but as potent as I think it is, I also think it has its share of checks to help you bring it down. When you factor in its disliking of priority, hazards, status, and a good amount of physically bulky options to pressure it (since it can't hit a ton super effectively), the many high ladder balances we are seeing very clearly have their share of options to contain it. Though, I would say it being contained is more relative to a card castle or a late stage Jenga game. It is undoubtedly a top tier Pokemon and I do think it is treading very close to being something that is worth a suspect as it reaps upon stability imo, but while we continue to figure out this metagame and determine what the problems of it actually are, I don't quite see this as a broken checking broken situation; it's more complicated than that. If it isn't naturally prioritized then I don't really think I would clamor to see it removed ASAP, but if it's removed I'm not really gonna complain.

:kingambit:
Really good, but not broken

I never really thought Kingambit was on the level of broken as others have; maybe it was troll of me to say it took skill to use early on, but I do think it's a bit of a rougher climate for Kingambit than it was before and does make it more complicated to use to its fullest. This metagame is being dominated hardcore by bulky Sucker Punch resistances and disruptive Teras that impede its gameplan. But despite that, its healthy qualities do stand out more than they have before with the broken elements being a bit suppressed, so I'm honestly pretty chill with its place in the current metagame.

:enamorus:
Ban Tera Blast

This speaks for itself, lol. Enamorus is fine without Stellar Tera Blast.

____

If I had to rank things based on how pressing/broken I see them, my top five would rank as follows:

1: Kyurem
2: Enamorus/Tera Blast
3: Roaring Moon
4: Volcarona
5: Iron Boulder

(I'm not rating Gouging Fire yet because I don't know what I'm doing with it LOL. tentatively above roaring moon ig)

Hope this was informative!
I do really hope that the OU Council agrees on your Kyurem Take. Kyurem is fun to use but way to strong for OU. It should be at least suspected.
 
Remember that most of my argument against Darkrai was competition, and in a metagame like this consistency is incredibly important. Not only is Hypnosis a fish but you only get one coverage option which means you're pretty reliant on Bad Dreams, Hypnosis landing, Sleep turns going in your favor, and brute force to beat whatever checks your coverage option of choice. I did forget to mention it and it is a reason to consider it for NP sets ig but it's not even close to being a major niche for Darkrai.
I wasn't even talking about Hypnosis + NP. In my experience, admittedly not high ladder or a tournament setting, Hypnosis 3 attacks is pretty killer. With Darkrai's natural speed tier, and the threat of NP/ChoiceS people often switch out to their checks/"counters" giving you plenty of opportunities to fish safely for Hypnosis hits. It's unreal seeing a Pokemon like Darkrai 1v1 a Ting-Lu a Pokemon that by all rights should beat Darkrai everytime, but you only have to get lucky once. Bad Dreams is such a good ability that I feel like not utilizing it in some way is kinda wasting Darkrai's potential. IDK, maybe I'm just a peabrained Bad, but I think Hypnosis Darkrai is defintely strong enough to look further into.
 
I will say, what's the real difference between a call for a Tera Blast ban, and say a Booster Energy ban? In both cases only a handful of Pokemon are problematic with the move/item while other mons that can utilize the move/item and completely fine with it. Why in one case your called a Bozo for suggesting it while the other is seen as a perfectly fine way to bring the power level of the tier down. Doesn't really make much sense to be. In fact a Tera Blast ban seems way more disastrous for not only OU, but just every tier than a Booster Energy ban. Your just cutting a creative aspect of teambuilding that an option Tera Blast gives.
the difference is that one has very limited community support, seems a bit arbitrary, and would likely cause more problems than it solves. meanwhile, the other one has quite a lot of community opposition, feels a little inconsistent, and would probably result in more issues arising than being put to rest
 
I'm honestly slightly worried that the council did not mentioned Terastalization once during the last survey.
Isn't it considered one of the biggest reasons this gen can feel matchup-fishy at times? I feel the main issue is Tera Blast; they removed Hidden Power for a reason, and a lot of pokémon were banned in the past or became banworthy due to tera blast patching its weaknesses.

Also, I'm quite sure they promised a suspect test after the meta became more stable, and considering no other pokémon is banworthy right now somehow (It somehow feels like early crown tundra OU, but might just be me), It seems like a good opportunity window to tackle this controversial mechanic, hopefully now with actual resolution instead of an obnoxious cliffhanger due to awful communication from both sides.

By the way...

Your calc is actually way off. A +2 Mighty Cleave is a guaranteed 2HKO on Gliscor.

+2 252 Atk Quark Drive Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 235-277 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Isn't Quark drive supposed to boost speed on Iron Boulder, not power? Here's the ACTUAL damage calc when I forced it to boost speed.

+2 252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

It was YOUR CALC the one way off. The reason it considered such scenario to begin with is because debuffs can alter where the boost goes to (Learned it the bad way in a sticky web mirror, causing me to be swept by a Gholdengo). Your guaranteed 2HKO will only happen with said sticky web support.
With that being said that 3-Turn KO exposes the fact Gliscor can be quite passive at times, never getting the KO, while Landorus-T will always do it.
 
I feel the main issue is Tera Blast; they removed Hidden Power for a reason,
i don't think that's the reason they removed hidden power, otherwise they wouldn't have introduced tera blast at all. you're putting way too much faith in game freak by suggesting that they actually did something for the sake of balance. it probably just kept fucking up when interacting with dynamax because of the way the move type "changes" but doesn't actually change, so they decided to remove the move altogether instead of fixing it. masuda's razor: never attribute to competence that which can adequately be explained by laziness
 
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I'm honestly slightly worried that the council did not mentioned Terastalization once during the last survey.
Isn't it considered one of the biggest reasons this gen can feel matchup-fishy at times? I feel the main issue is Tera Blast; they removed Hidden Power for a reason, and a lot of pokémon were banned in the past or became banworthy due to tera blast patching its weaknesses.
They said they would look into tera later down the line. It's been done to death and it is a core mechanic, so it should be done later. Even still, tera has technically not been as problematic now as before (big emphasis on the technically), so it should be something done later.
I also think the tera blast thing is a bit dumb, it only even breaks enam, serp, regieleki and potentially volc and gambit in my opinion. Every other tera abuser doesn't use tera blast. It's a cool thought, and maybe I'm wrong, but we should go for the full ban. That's probably part of the reason the first tera suspect failed, there were too many options. It should be a simple yes or no.
 
They said they would look into tera later down the line. It's been done to death and it is a core mechanic, so it should be done later. Even still, tera has technically not been as problematic now as before (big emphasis on the technically), so it should be something done later.
I also think the tera blast thing is a bit dumb, it only even breaks enam, serp, regieleki and potentially volc and gambit in my opinion. Every other tera abuser doesn't use tera blast. It's a cool thought, and maybe I'm wrong, but we should go for the full ban. That's probably part of the reason the first tera suspect failed, there were too many options. It should be a simple yes or no.

I agree. Tera blast is just a part of the bigger problem/conundrum. Stuff like Tera Flying Roaring Moon or Tera Ground Earth Power Kyurem become very overbearing because of the sudden change in type matchup and STAB.
 
If you want to wall boulder it’s very possible.

it can’t even OHKO 0/4 Garchomp at +2. It can’t OHKO Keldeo at +0

how is this even in contention for broken.

there are pokemon where you can use something to block its progress, and this is especially noteworthy on boulder, which has a 1 time booster.

and there are pokemon like vokcarona where you can usually block its progress, and then you get surprised by a Tera blast. Eg water blast against skeledirge. For those situations you pair your wall with a plan B, like Rillaboom.

and then there are pokemon where you need 3-4 ways to block its progress. Although fortunately they can be suppressed in a high-aggression meta, but still ridiculous when the meta stabilises. That’s the gambit, as you probably guessed.
 
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Your claim is actually off somewhat in the sense that Poison Heals a lot less than you think it does. A +2 Mighty Cleave is a roll to 2HKO Gliscor.

+2 252 Atk Iron Boulder Mighty Cleave vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 181-214 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

I'm not disputing your claim that Iron Boulder isn't broken, but Gliscor is 100% not an answer to Iron Boulder. Defensive Landorus-Therian being able to OHKO Iron Boulder if it doesn't Tera is one reason to use Lando over Gliscor, and I suspect that's the main reason Lando-T didn't drop to UU this time around.

Edit: Sorry about the wrong calc earlier. For some reason, the calc automatically gave an Attack boost even though it was set to a Jolly nature. I had to take Booster Energy off for it to calc properly.
ok so what I was thinking was 60-12=48, 48x2 = not a 2HKO. I forgor to multiply 60 by 2 first
 
If you want to wall boulder it’s very possible.

it can’t even OHKO 0/4 Garchomp at +2. It can’t OHKO Keldeo at +0

how is this even in contention for broken.

there are pokemon where you can use something to block its progress, and this is especially noteworthy on boulder, which has a 1 time booster.

and there are pokemon like vokcarona where you can usually block its progress, and then you get surprised by a Tera blast. Eg water blast against skeledirge. For those situations you pair your wall with a plan B, like Rillaboom.

and then there are pokemon where you need 3-4 ways to block its progress. Although fortunately they can be suppressed in a high-aggression meta, but still ridiculous when the meta stabilises. That’s the gambit, as you probably guessed.
the fact that there's viable and consistent offensive and defensive counterplay to iron boulder immediately puts it below, like, three or four other things that we should absolutely be worrying about instead. maybe we should focus on something like gouging fire, which is able to basically choose between having no offensive counterplay or no defensive counterplay based on what set you run
 
the fact that there's viable and consistent offensive and defensive counterplay to iron boulder immediately puts it below, like, three or four other things that we should absolutely be worrying about instead. maybe we should focus on something like gouging fire, which is able to basically choose between having no offensive counterplay or no defensive counterplay based on what set you run
Gouging fire is so weird. I think ausma highlighted it but it should be the most bonkers mon ever, but whenever I run into it, it doesn't seem really broken. I think part of the reason for me is that I'm running rain or offense teams that fire struggles against, but that's what I think is the problem with it. It has to choose its matchups. Choosing between jolly and adamant is difficult for most physical mons, but this is especially true for gouging. It will either outrun a decent amount of mons but lose a lot of power, or get lots of power but lose to speedier mons. It can't do both things at once. It may be broken in the future, but I think something like moon or kyurem should be the main focus, as they can destroy either speedy or slow teams.
 
Has anyone been having success with Venu on Sun? I’ve been using it with Dino Suicune and Entei as a FWG core but I’ve found it hard to switch in on much. Thinking about swapping for the third Dino

I found that with two dragons, there are definitely some moments where you can switch Venusaur in a fairy move. Of course yawn on torkoal also creates nice opportunities to switch, but by far the biggest game changer to sun for me has been Scizor, which can switch in a lot of stuff and pivot savely to one of the dinos or Venusaur. Definitely an underrated mon right now.
 
I put several Mons at 5 in last survey. Boulder was not one of them. Would totally vote Ban if Suspected, but there is some counterplay. The usual Dondozo is right there, bulky grounds are right there, Balloon Gholdengo exists, Bullet Punch or Sucker Punch from the Gambit destroy it unless it Teras... and it somehow has 4 slots syndrome unless using CB. It needs the Rock move and SD, but then has to choose between EQ, CC and Psychic STAB and no matter which it chooses, something common will wall it.

Its a very powerful and dominating Mon, but there are even more powerful and dominating Mons that look way more unhealthy to the Tier than him.
 
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