Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

kstiemsma said:
I have not played much since DLC2 dropped so please correct me if something has changed, but for those opposed to at least trying to take action on Gold what is your alternative to improve the hazard metagame? To me the options seem to be 1) look at gold, 2) look at 3-4 premier spikes setters that get them up way too easily (samuh, ting lu, maybe gliscor/skarm), 3) look at spikes as a move (won't happen).

Or are ppl generally satisfied with the state of the hazard metagame and i'm just in the minority?
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Fully suppport this comment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Hazards are and have always been the single biggest problem of Gen 9; more than Tera or even Power Creep.
I defended Gholdengo's banning since day 1 of the meta due to what it did to Defog. But after seeing DLC2 bring literally ZERO defoggers, and a meta that is more hostile to Gholdengo that still suffers from hazards, I am not so sure that banning him is gonna help much.

But I still gave it a 4 in the survey and support its banning because I don't see any alternatives. So please, PLEASE, do talk about what alternatives exist within tiering rules to tackle this issue when arguing against banning Gholdengo. You can't tell me "shouldn't ban Gholdengo cause banning it wouldn't magically fix hazards", then say nothing on any alternatives to treat the problem. Specially when the line is "FIX hazards", implying an agreement that they are a problem that requires fixing. I, for one, don't consider resignation an alternative.
 
NotDaProGamer said:
THE HAZARD WAR: A HELPFUL INFOGRAPHIC (NOT REALLY)
FOR HAZARDSANTI HAZARDS
General: GholdengoGeneral/Spy: Great Tusk
Vice-General: Sinistcha (spinblock)The Wild Card/The Uno Reverse: Hatterene
Corporal and Defector: SkarmoryGuy-With-A-Grudge-Against-Gholdengo: Corviknight
Tank: GliscorGeneral's Brother: Iron Treads
Kamikaze Bomber 1: Samurott-HisuiGeneral's Son: Donphan
Kamikaze Bomber 2: GlimmoraDaddyBuzzwole Endorsement: Cryogonal (DLC1 discussion)
Spy Mole: SmeargleTyranitar's Brother: Excadrill
Sticky Situation: RibombeeSunny Personality: Torkoal
Speedy Bruv: Deoxys-SpeedTidy Freaks: Maushold and Cinccino (and Furret ig)
Enemy Agent: Great Tusk (sets rocks)Enemy Agent: Smeargle (it spins)
Artifact of Utmost Importance: Focus SashArtifact of Utmost Importance: Heavy-Duty Boots
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How does this affect boots Volcaronas legacy ⁉️
 
YubelVT said:
This is how it works but it literally only matters when webs are on the field (or the pledge combo I guess) because that's the only thing that can affect a stat stage before booster energy procs. The calc is acting as intended but as intended only happens with literally one or two interactions in the entire game.

I guess it could also happen with baton pass but like, I am a "normal" person who does not think about baton pass when I'm not playing gen 3 OU
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Correct. But it is annoying to have +2 Atk on a set assuming you have speed, only to get Atk boost despite paradox boosts only changing with Field Effects changing.
kstiemsma said:
I have not played much since DLC2 dropped so please correct me if something has changed, but for those opposed to at least trying to take action on Gold what is your alternative to improve the hazard metagame? To me the options seem to be 1) look at gold, 2) look at 3-4 premier spikes setters that get them up way too easily (samuh, ting lu, maybe gliscor/skarm), 3) look at spikes as a move (won't happen).

Or are ppl generally satisfied with the state of the hazard metagame and i'm just in the minority?
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I'd say it's the fact that there are more rapid spinners in the tier that also threaten Gholdengo too. Namely the reintroduction of Excadrill. You also have Great Tusk being buffed with Temper Flare being able to KO Gholdengos that switch into Rapid Spin. A lot of things are also bigger threats to Gholdengo now as well.
Also I'd honestly rather deal with hazards currently than deal with many Pokemon who would break the meta without Gholdengo being there to check them and to force them to use certain coverage moves.
 
NotDaProGamer said:
THE HAZARD WAR: A HELPFUL INFOGRAPHIC (NOT REALLY)
FOR HAZARDSANTI HAZARDS
General: GholdengoGeneral/Spy: Great Tusk
Vice-General: Ting-LuThe Wild Card/The Uno Reverse: Hatterene
Corporal and Defector: SkarmoryGuy-With-A-Grudge-Against-Gholdengo: Corviknight
Tank: GliscorGeneral's Brother: Iron Treads
Kamikaze Bomber 1: Samurott-HisuiGeneral's Son: Donphan
Kamikaze Bomber 2: GlimmoraDaddyBuzzwole Endorsement: Cryogonal (DLC1 discussion)
Spy Mole: SmeargleTyranitar's Brother: Excadrill
Sticky Situation: RibombeeSunny Personality: Torkoal
Speedy Bruv: Deoxys-SpeedTidy Freaks: Maushold and Cinccino (and Furret ig)
Seemingly Unaware: ClodsireGrudge Against Dwayne Johnson (rocks): Volcarona
Enemy Agent: Great Tusk (sets rocks)Enemy Agent: Smeargle (it spins)
Artifact of Utmost Importance: Focus SashArtifact of Utmost Importance: Heavy-Duty Boots
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How can you miss my boy Ace out of this?:psycry:
 
JunkoAJ said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this point, that more Ubers need to be re-tested or that the power level is high or we simply should stop saying we have Ubers in OU?
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He’s saying that we shouldn’t be so adverse to test Ubers in OU, as it is simply the ban list for OU. Ubers is not a usage based tier, so things don’t drop out organically, the have to be let free by the OU council, which leads to this weird issue with Pokémon like darkrai and deoxys-d (Ubers which are verifiably not anywhere close to broken) being stuck in a tier they do not belong in. There’s this argument that always pops up, that Ubers need to “add/bring value” to OU to drop, when I believe the standard should simply be that they’re not broken in OU. Darkrai has proven to actually be a really cool speed control option for teams, even though it was initially thought that it would only be used as a broken sweeper.

point being, we should be less afraid to hold suspect tests for things we think might be ok in OU, instead of freaking out about it being an Uber, within reason of course. There is a big difference between a weak Uber and a Pokémon that should drop into OU. These tests should also only be done in stable meta environments imho, as banning broken things should take precedence over dropping non broken things
 
turd2 said:
Another Darkrai 6-0 at 1950+ rating: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026271928-o756fs8p7fwqnxjbn8rtapwjfdtr6abpw

Followed by another 6-0 against the exact same team 2 games later: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026277113-fuc4jfxtqtvte9ukzevmh0ri3pqc1bcpw

Defensive teams have no answer for this. Isn't that why Annihilape got banned?
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I mean, if your sample size only has 2 replays vs the exactly same team, it does look broken.

But defensive teams can definetely adapt. Blissey + Unaware Closdire stop pretty much every set. Something like Slither Wing has a good defensive profile and is only weak to Fairy Tera Blast. Tinkaton is a good defensive Mon whose only problem is not having recovery, Zamazenta is something that can be used in defensive teams with Iron Defense + Rest + Heavy Slam (in case the set is like the one you used) to revenge kill stuff and be a win condition, etc. there are many options.
Moreover, Annihilape needed just Bulk Up, Drain Punch, Rage Fist and either Taunt or Rest to destroy every single defensive core (except Hisuian Zoroark). Meanwhile, Darkrai needs like 8 different moves to do the same and in practice is way better vs offensive teams than defensive ones. You yourself used it with Tera Blast as only coverage, in most matches that would mean a big oportunity cost, since Darkrai will most likely be forced to Tera in order to break something.
 
turd2 said:
Another Darkrai 6-0 at 1950+ rating: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026271928-o756fs8p7fwqnxjbn8rtapwjfdtr6abpw

Followed by another 6-0 against the exact same team 2 games later: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026277113-fuc4jfxtqtvte9ukzevmh0ri3pqc1bcpw

Defensive teams have no answer for this. Isn't that why Annihilape got banned?
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Before anyone comes screaming to the defense of precious Darkrai I wonder what exactly these defensive teams are doing wrong (outside of not running clod) I mean hell weavile loses the tie twice in both games and blissey coming in tossing then getting put to sleep when no other mon can handle Krai doesn't seem like "counterplay".
 
turd2 said:
Another Darkrai 6-0 at 1950+ rating: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026271928-o756fs8p7fwqnxjbn8rtapwjfdtr6abpw

Followed by another 6-0 against the exact same team 2 games later: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026277113-fuc4jfxtqtvte9ukzevmh0ri3pqc1bcpw

Defensive teams have no answer for this. Isn't that why Annihilape got banned?
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To be fair I feel like everything went as favorable for you as possible in that game, hypnosis hitting, rest sleep talk dozo, speed ties with weavile, a crit, etc.

But if fairy tera blast really does 60%+ to unaware(?) clefable that is truly eye opening.

Edit: ran the calc. Its 37-44% on unaware. So they had magic guard. I am not unaware you could use sludge bomb.
 
Eeveeto said:
I mean, if your sample size only has 2 replays vs the exactly same team, it does look broken.

But defensive teams can definetely adapt. Blissey + Unaware Closdire stop pretty much every set.
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If Hypnosis lands on Blissey or Clodsire, they lose. Need both on the same team to actually counter Darkrai. One eats Hypnosis, the other kills Darkrai.

Something like Slither Wing has a good defensive profile and is only weak to Fairy Tera Blast.
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Bruh

peepeepoopoo722 said:
To be fair I feel like everything went as favorable for you as possible in that game, hypnosis hitting
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Yes, Hypnosis needs to hit to break most teams. It's a 60% chance.

You know what other mon has a 60% chance to BS its way past its checks? Shaymin-Sky. Ask this thread if they would like that mon unbanned.
 
turd2 said:
If Hypnosis lands on Blissey or Clodsire, they lose. Need both on the same team to actually counter Darkrai. One eats Hypnosis, the other kills Darkrai.



Bruh


Yes, Hypnosis needs to hit to break most teams. It's a 60% chance.

You know what other mon has a 60% chance to BS its way past its checks? Shaymin-Sky. Ask this thread if they would like that mon unbanned.
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Show me your hypnosis misses, also air slash is a way more bs move than hypnosis since it's nearly guaranteed to deal damage
 
BolTingBlazie said:
Show me your hypnosis misses, also air slash is a way more bs move than hypnosis since it's nearly guaranteed to deal damage
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I'm playing 5v6 when Hypnosis misses. I don't hide that. It's not a secret.

But the odds are in my favor. Especially with Leftovers, I almost always get multiple chances for it to land.

Do we really want high variance mons like this that can BS their way past their checks? The hatred for Shaymin-Sky tells me we don't.
 
turd2 said:
I'm playing 5v6 when Hypnosis misses. I don't hide that. It's not a secret.

But the odds are in my favor. Especially with Leftovers, I almost always get multiple chances for it to land.

Do we really want high variance mons like this that can BS their way past their checks? The hatred for Shaymin-Sky tells me we don't.
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At least with hypnosis you have a sizable 40% chance to not do anything, with air slash you have a 95% chance to make progress with a chance to flinch on top of that
 
turd2 said:
Bruh
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List of Mons Slither Wing defensively checks (without either of the Mons using Tera, which changes some match-ups):
-Great Tusk
-Kingambit
-Zamazenta
-Darkrai
-Hydrapple
-Rillaboom
-Landorus-T
-Meowscarada
-Weavile
-Hisuian Samurott
-Excadrill
-Hisuian Lilligant
-Ogerpon
-Mamoswine
-Iron Treads
-Iron Hands

Its not a counter and some of those match-ups are very iffy and not too reliable. But its not crazy enough to just say "Bruh" without even giving a proper argument. Defensive teams won,t be always having the same 6 defensive Mons, they can also adapt.
 
turd2 said:
I'm playing 5v6 when Hypnosis misses. I don't hide that. It's not a secret.

But the odds are in my favor. Especially with Leftovers, I almost always get multiple chances for it to land.

Do we really want high variance mons like this that can BS their way past their checks? The hatred for Shaymin-Sky tells me we don't.
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Maybe in time we'll be shown that your darkrai set is the most optimal- it will get abused and reach a higher usage and we will all see were wrong.

Those two replays vs the same team that don't appear prepared for midrai and things go favorably aren't really selling it for me but please do continue to share!

I think many of us are more overly prepared for darkrai despite its low usage.
 
turd2 said:
If Hypnosis lands on Blissey or Clodsire, they lose. Need both on the same team to actually counter Darkrai. One eats Hypnosis, the other kills Darkrai.
Bruh
Yes, Hypnosis needs to hit to break most teams. It's a 60% chance.
You know what other mon has a 60% chance to BS its way past its checks? Shaymin-Sky. Ask this thread if they would like that mon unbanned.
Click to expand...
turd2 said:
I'm playing 5v6 when Hypnosis misses. I don't hide that. It's not a secret.

But the odds are in my favor. Especially with Leftovers, I almost always get multiple chances for it to land.

Do we really want high variance mons like this that can BS their way past their checks? The hatred for Shaymin-Sky tells me we don't.
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Don't underestimate the slithery wing. It is somehow on the updated role compendium as a physical wall and :Archaludon: isn't.
Also, you can make this argument about AMOONGUUS on the Hypnosis/sleep.
Shaymin-Sky does DAMAGE.
D'ya know, most people are reluctant to use focus blast? 'The odds are in your favour' so you are fine with playing a 5v6 40% of the time?
No multiple chances against HO lol. Fighting is common (enough) in OU, and anyway a good amount of hits will kill Darkrai.
Anyway, do what you want. Nobody is forcing you to play 40% of games in a 5v6, especially when they can get one turn sleep making it closer to 50%. You want to gamble? Go right ahead.
 
peepeepoopoo722 said:
Maybe in time we'll be shown that your darkrai set is the most optimal- it will get abused and reach a higher usage and we will all see were wrong.

Those two replays vs the same team that don't appear prepared for midrai and things go favorably aren't really selling it for me but please do continue to share!
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Name one other mon in this meta that can 6-0 teams at 2k+ rating. Even when things go well.
 
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