Also, can you please give me a template for this I want to make some.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I have replays of my friend 6-0'ing teams at very high ladder with my Kricketune set + Specs Archaludon, does that mean Kricketune + Specs Archaludon is broken? No, it means that matches were played and won. Replays are unreliable without written evidence giving them context and explaining teambuilding pressures. All a replay says is "This Pokemon can function in this situation." Rampardos can slam through entire unresisted cores, does that mean Rampardos is banworthy? No, not even close. Darkrai is a solid mon, but there's nothing here that puts him even close to banworthy. Imo Darkrai is actually quite healthy for the tier.
This is a competitive forum where the idea is to make a balanced metagame; so when you make claims about a Pokemon being broken, those claims need to be backed up with evidence. An essay would add validity to your claims and that's why I like typing them. Do you think anyone here would take my viewpoints about Pokemon like OU base Calyrex seriously if I didn't put in the time to constantly test, then record my findings via an essay + details of their niche? They wouldn't. When you post something controversial or something that goes against common understanding, the burden of proof is on you to show why you feel your viewpoint is correct. Going off with condescending remarks like "I'm not here for a PhD" only makes people less willing to take your stance with anything other than a grain of salt.
this is the site i used
to make this not a one-liner, i do think slither wing is heavily underrated right now, especially with how strong sun is as a playstyle. i might actually slot that on with triple dinos because the team's kinda lacking in terms of tusk/zama switch-ins
I think using multiple mons to beat someone is a lil bit different than leading with Darkrai and winning the game right then and there, without ever switching. Which happens regularly when you use Darkrai against defensive teams.
Any team without Booster Energy speed or multiple priority users risks being 6-0'd by Darkrai. I think that is a problem.
carkol is fighting hazard stack from the inside (she gets spikes so they ignored her being a flithy spinner)
Honchkrow and furret bludgeoning alolan golem with ground type attacks and knock off spam after whiscash died early game to a tera grass lumieon (hes the leader of hazard stack‘s ZU branch)
Any team without Booster Energy speed or priority users also risks being 6-0'd by Pokemon like Kingambit, Gholdengo, Serperior, Volcarona, Gouging Fire, Iron Boulder, or Kyurem. Darkrai does not hit hard without a boost, and it's incredibly easy to slot mons in that handle it. Darkrai's one STAB move only has 80 BP, while its strongest move Focus Blast hits about as often as my voice hits when I'm doing drunk karaoke, even moreso the case with Hypnosis. Sure, Darkrai can be threatening if you get boosts up, just like 75% of the rest of the OU tier. Having a chance to win games with +2 is not an indicator of an unhealthy mon, otherwise half the tier would be banworthy.
Unaware.
Gholdengo is not even a little bit fast either, at 87 speed with no priority.
Serperior is naturally outsped by many mons in OU. Unaware also handles him well.
Have you heard of Ting-Lu? Blissey? Clodsire? Volcarona can not break special walls.
Gouging Fire has been discussed as banworthy in this thread becauase he has no defensive switch-ins.
You can not outrun Iron Boulder. He is the fastest mon in OU after Booster Energy. Defensive mons are actually his only counterplay, not Booster Energy...
Unaware.
I distinctly remember Turd esquire here arguing that H-Zoroark's presence would be enough to balance Annihilape for OU some time ago. I'd advise the rest of you not to waste your time genuinely arguing with someone who's this...
Also, Slither Wing is absolutely a super cool off-meta pick. Sun teams are common right now, yeah? Consider adding the funny bug.
you, uh… you do realize that there are not one but two mons in the tier right now capable of viably running unaware and walling tera fairy darkrai once you sack something else to sleep, right? i could even argue three if i count "a well-played tera fairy dirge"
Boosting Darkrai is also folded by Unaware, like Ghold and King. Ghold can run a scarf while King has priority via Sucker Punch that, let me tell ya, hits a lot harder than Darkrai, especially with Supreme Overlord boosts. King doesn't need LO +2, it primarily runs Leftovers for a reason.
Ting-Lu, you mean the Pokemon that can handle +2 Darkrai and phase it out. Volcarona wins matchups and has actual bulk, and is by far a better OU Pokemon than Darkrai.
The point I'm trying to make to you is that the main thing that Darkrai has going for it IS its speed; in all other departments, it's overwhelmed by a lot of OU - its power is overshadowed and it requires boosts to hit properly, and Life Orb is needed to hit certain damage benchmarks which takes Darkrai's paltry bulk and limits it even further (Darkrai cannot take a hit to save its life without serious investment).
Except no, because Hypnosis.
You need a sleep sacrifice first, then switch in the Unaware mon. Which is extremely easy to play around for the Darkrai user (they know to save sleep for your Unaware mon).
bruv you have 6 mons
'they know to save sleep for your Unaware mon' THEN YOU CAN BEAT IT WITH ITS NORMAL CHECKS AND NOT WORRY ABOUT THE SLEEP
I'd also like to point to DaddyBuzzwole's quote
Cherry picking things to respond to now?
Finally, hey what's your plan for the 40% chance that happens in a decent amount of games that your unaware
is unaware of the hypnosis and it misses, so you get toxic. What do you do?
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you can also just switch out of the unaware mon to bait hypnosis. hell, you can switch out into hatterene and then you have the hypnosis. darkrai has to play better than you think it does to end up in these sort of positions
and i happen to have a degree in game design, and i'm telling you to sit down and listen to morkal, 1ldk, and the countless other people who know what they're talking about
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Good stuff right there. I would add on the Holy Hazard Empire the following things in strength: Focus Sash and Kingambit. Meanwhile Hazard Control Union should have Multi-hit Moves (to counter Focus Sash), Air Balloon and Kingambit (as a evil Dark type, he plays for both sides).
Forgot to say this, but saving sleep for your Unaware mon doesn't work, because there is something called RESTTALK DOZO. do you know what sleep talk does? it allows you to hit Darkrai while you're sleeping. Darkrai ain't living a wave crash or a body press.
I think that the most pressing Dark-type in OU is Roaring Moon, and I think that's the only Dark-type that I'd personally consider anywhere near broken. 
can break through multiple archetypes thanks to its movepool, multiple boosting options, Taunt, great stats, great typing, and being one of the best Tera abusers in the meta. Kingambit, Ting-Lu, and Meowscarada are also all better Dark-type mons than Darkrai.
Darkrai is not busted in any way shape or form, it's a solid A- rank mon that has great qualities and great meta synergy.
can break through multiple archetypes thanks to its movepool, multiple boosting options, Taunt, great stats, great typing, and being one of the best Tera abusers in the meta. Kingambit, Ting-Lu, and Meowscarada are also all better Dark-type mons than Darkrai.Darkrai is not busted in any way shape or form, it's a solid A- rank mon that has great qualities and great meta synergy.
this is true. my reasoning behind not wanting darkrai back was that i didn't consider iron valiant fine for the tier in dlc1. of course, that opinion has changed now that several new forms of speed control exist that can serve as reliable offensive answers to darkrai and valiant. suffice it to say that i didn't see a base 124 speed mon with booster energy in the crystal ball i use to make meta predictions
Gholdengo is one of the most resilient Mons with a Boosting move in the game, and frequently relies on Thunder Wave for Speed Control (which is what Priority is used to Circumvent)
Kingambit is only hard stopped by Dondozo among the Unaware users, given Skeledirge and Clefable are weak to one of its STABs, while Clodsire is a Special Wall that can't take KO-boosted Kowtows well.
As gets brought up multiple times as well, the Unaware mons are equally valid answers to Darkrai as to other set-up sweepers unless they eat paste on a Hypnosis set.
Unaware is team specific while offensive teams have to watch for Glare as always. No more widespread or universal than using them as Darkrai answers
Depending on the coverage choices neither can Darkrai (especially with the restriction Hypnosis puts on Attack options), and Volcarona is known for being very polarized in its match-ups anyway.
Survey literally says otherwise from the player base, and Gouging Fire is strong but only as Nuclear as those posts while Sun is working for him
Why do you think Priority (something Boulder is weak to some of the most prominent forms of without Tera) was mentioned at the start of the list?
Last I was aware Kyurem is equally if not more radar worthy for its Specs sets because of the absurd coverage Freeze Dry and Earth Power/Tera Blast give it unboosted. At the very least, Unaware is not a catch-all answer to Kyurem, at best to one of its set types.
Citing Hypnosis every single time a Darkrai answer comes up is to assume that teams make absolutely no prep for a fast Special Breaker and have no out to it beyond maybe 1 slot on the team, in a tier that has to deal with the previous mentioned Kyurem, Serperior, Enamorus, Offensive Gholdengo, Raging Bolt, Volcarona, and some less prominent but still relevant stuff like Walking Wake, Greninja, Iron Crown, and Iron Valiant. If a defensive team (against which his speed isn't a strict advantage) folds to Darkrai after one member is slept, then it's not a well built team. Have you considered why Darkrai considers Hypnosis but the oft-compared-before Iron Valiant doesn't? It's because he heavily lacks for options to break through defensive teams unless you carry exactly the coverage for that match and/or your opponent REALLY drops the ball on giving him free turns while having few responses to a mid-high Special attacker in terms of output: one STAB with only-okay BP moves in general bring his power down quite a bit from what those teams already need to watch for. He gambles on it because it gives him a 60% chance to not be useless into certain cores (while being 100% useless in others where he wants that 3rd coverage move).
To also bring a question of my own right now in case this topic gets quashed, how are people finding Rain teams? Archaludon is the main new toy it received, but did the playstyle itself increase in prominence, or did it mainly improve thanks to a Sun-Heavy Meta for all the Paradoxes that it counters both directly and passively?
Darkrai is a good mon that can have some difficulties with being splashed.
Darkrai lacks a good defensive typing like Valiant or decent bulk like Boulder. Hence it has a difficult time actually setting up. Not to mention STAB Dpulse is surprisingly weak coming off its 135 SpA. Dark Pulse isn’t as spammable as Sball despite having the same BP, because Ghost’s only relevant resists/immunities are Dark types, Garg, and Blissey. Darkrai can’t really force OHKOs on most of the meta. If you run Life Orb to boost your raw dmg, congrats, you’re using a bad item.
There are other mons that can do Darkrai’s job while being more consistent.
Specs Pult is faster and has more immediate power via Draco and Sball. Ghold has much better defensive utility and longevity despite being much slower. As a fast Dark type that can force progress, there are two cats that are more consistent at it while offering more to a team.
Meowscarada (Stronger Knock, U-Turn, Protean)
Weavile (Stronger STABs, Priority)
Darkrai has some neat utility and wallbreaking potential, but its roles could be done by other picks.
If you are struggling with Rai, here’s some checks.
Clod, SpD Corv, AV Prim, Zama, Iron Hands, and Pex just to name a few.
Also if you’re complaining about a 60% acc sleep move breaking Darkrai, I hope you don’t learn about Gengar.
Edit: For a better comparison, Hypnosis Valiant.
Darkrai lacks a good defensive typing like Valiant or decent bulk like Boulder. Hence it has a difficult time actually setting up. Not to mention STAB Dpulse is surprisingly weak coming off its 135 SpA. Dark Pulse isn’t as spammable as Sball despite having the same BP, because Ghost’s only relevant resists/immunities are Dark types, Garg, and Blissey. Darkrai can’t really force OHKOs on most of the meta. If you run Life Orb to boost your raw dmg, congrats, you’re using a bad item.
There are other mons that can do Darkrai’s job while being more consistent.
Specs Pult is faster and has more immediate power via Draco and Sball. Ghold has much better defensive utility and longevity despite being much slower. As a fast Dark type that can force progress, there are two cats that are more consistent at it while offering more to a team.
Meowscarada (Stronger Knock, U-Turn, Protean)
Weavile (Stronger STABs, Priority)
Darkrai has some neat utility and wallbreaking potential, but its roles could be done by other picks.
If you are struggling with Rai, here’s some checks.
Clod, SpD Corv, AV Prim, Zama, Iron Hands, and Pex just to name a few.
Also if you’re complaining about a 60% acc sleep move breaking Darkrai, I hope you don’t learn about Gengar.
Edit: For a better comparison, Hypnosis Valiant.
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all right but that's not really an apt comparison because base 110 speed is trivial compared to base 125. also, hypnosis was an actual factor in the mega gengar ban because sleep synergizes obscenely well with the already-broken shadow tag (and with trapping in general—y'all better watch out for yawn fire spin torkoal, it sounds like a meme but it'll get you when you least expect). iron valiant is a much better example
Darkrai 6-0's another stall team at 1900 rating, this time with 2 Unaware users AND Blissey: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026379945
It's really not hard. Boost up, sleep something threatening, then click Dark Pulse until you get a flinch. Defensive teams can't do a damn thing unless they get lucky.
It's really not hard. Boost up, sleep something threatening, then click Dark Pulse until you get a flinch. Defensive teams can't do a damn thing unless they get lucky.
speaking of iron valiant, i think you might be facing an encore set because you keep saying the same thing over and over again
ogerpon hearthflame required everone to run tera dragon dondozo youre crazy for wanting that backidk why people are clowning you here
sub-CM darkrai with hypnosis is another set that can 6-0 on lead
that said, I don't think the fact that darkrai can 6-0 fat teams from turn 1 is a bad thing, nor do I think it's "broken". NP Hypnosis Gengar has been able to do this since gen-whatever. Hypnosis valiant is more OU-viable cheese. If anything, it's all the more reason to bring backand
. The ladder is offense-oriented and very antagonistic to pokemon like this, so to say they should be banned b/c they're restrictive to stall or whatever seems pretty stupid to me when stuff like Tera Dondozo invalidates 90% of physical attackers by existing.
Sleep is stupid, yeah, but so is paralysis and anything with less than like 80% accuracy. The game is just not very competitive at its core...
Ban Tera
Your comment is misleading and I wish you wouldn't spread false information like that. I watched your replay - first off, the opponent forfeited very early, you didn't "6-0" with Darkrai. Your match went right because the following things happened - you predicted that Gliscor would use Protect and got in a Nasty Plot, landed a 60% Hypnosis on Clefable first shot, burned your Tera to use Tera Blast Fairy, then got a critical hit + a flinch with +2 Dark Pulse on Blissey. This does not happen in most games, there's a reason the concept of "risk/reward" exists.
Should Calm Mind Raging Bolt get a ban because at +2 it can break through most of OU with its combination of Tera Blast Fairy/D Meteor/Thunderclap? No, because, like Darkrai, there's plenty of counterplay. As was said earlier in the thread, having a series of good matches at 1869 ELO doesn't mean a mon is busted - it means you took a risk and the risk paid off.