as far as i understand, poison only works the first time you get poisoned by this thing. Sounds like an inconvenience to be sure, but not game-breaking, we have worse.so like... swagger is banned for being heavily luck-based and, therefore, uncompetitive. what is the basis behind the notion thatwont just get banned for the same reason? a mon with not only a 100% accurate confusion+bad poison move in toxic, but also a 100 base power move with a 50% additional chance to confuse+badly poison, sounds like unreasonable abuse of the confusion mechanic and i dont see how that would be welcome in a competitive environment that tries to maximise the importance of skill and minimise the importance of random chance. its not that its "too strong", but just too reliant on an uncompetitive mechanic. am i crazy? is this thing just going to get banned no questions asked, or am i wrong and theres actually a case to be made in its defense?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
swagger hasn't been banned in years. they nerfed its accuracy to 85% and the chance to hit yourself in confusion to 33% instead of 50%, which makes it a lot riskier to use compared to the reward it offers. besides that, stuff like confuse ray has existed forever and that's never been a problem, the issue with swagger was always the +2 attack. pecharunt doesn't do any of that. i can almost guarantee the mon is not gonna be brokenso like... swagger is banned for being heavily luck-based and, therefore, uncompetitive. what is the basis behind the notion that
If that's the case, then this thing will be amazing on hazard stack teams. It can easily threaten out switches with confuse chance, meaning another round of hazards the opposing team has to face. Looks like the hazard metagame has gotten worse lmao. Though mons can only get poisoned once, so it could be niche.
I wonder if theres a move that removes the targets status condition, that could be cool with this mon.
Anyone else confused about which way Darkrai can go?
Alright as someone that plays a lot of stall let me clue you in on a thesis called "Stall does not run shit ideas, it runs shit solutions when solving an issue in prep."
Lets' see if Stall finds any solutions worth running with this shit thing.
Typing and base stats: Ghost typing is surprisingly clutch as stall, the base stat total in general is god awful but awful enough to where Stall might sincerely run it.
That poison typing as the caveat is not good though; It can't spinblock reliably since you're weak to Earthquake and adds a weakness without any net end positive. This solves nothing.
Ability: Funny ability. Completely useless on stall. If its' not regenerator, contact punishment, anti setup or anti- status Stall does not give a shit. This does nothing for a stall player. This solves nothing.
Movepool: A barren hole. When the best things I can say about this thing is that it presses Toxic and Recovers without regenerator it makes me think of Clodsire without any of the benefits of being Clodsire. This solves nothing.
Finally, the special move; "Malignant Chain". 100 base power, 100% accuracy, 50% chance to badly poison the target.
Just press toxic! Solves nothing, in fact it adds a problem by having such a low PP total on an archetype that can't afford low PP low reward tech.
This mon has been presented and vetted with the Stall Eye and let me tell you; Its nothing but non-solutions. Stall will not use it. It is just Shit. You'll see two-three good stall players fuck around with it type "lol this thing is ass" then forget its' even in the dex.
Thank you for coming to my presentation! Now kindly actually play the archetype in question before you make assumptions on it.
well that sure sounds interesting
very impractical, but annoying if it does ever happen
a council member expressed concern about it, which is why i included it on the bingo card. there's a lot of stuff on here that i don't expect to drop or be banned but has a non-zero chance of it
I have faced a non contrary serperior, a gouging fire with body slam and fire blast, a blizzard darkrai, heavy slam iron crown and dragon breath dragapult. All on the same team. I should be writing this shit down in a journal cause this is golden.
Speaking of Pecharunt, here are some pre-release sets I came up with
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Parting Shot
- Malignant Chain
- Hex/Night Shade
- Recover
Probably most standard if standard sets you can get for this Pokemon. 0 Spe IVs so it can Parting Shot as slow as possible. Malignant Chain for Badly Poisoning targets while also confusing them. Hex to combo with Toxic spreading and to hit Gliscor hard. Night Shade also being an option for Steel or Poison types it can’t status. Recover to keep itself healthy while it pivots.
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 180 SpA / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Malignant Chain
- Hex
- Recover
Same exact moves and Tera, but you outspeed no investment Gliscor and hit way harder. 16 Def and Bold is the first stat bump you. Rest is poured into SpA to make Malignant Chain and Hex stronger.
Pecharunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Fighting/Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tera Blast/Foul Play
- Gunk Shot
- Poltergeist
- Parting Shot
More meme than something threatening in OU. It has 2 really good physical STAB options but those are really it’s only good physical options. Luckily still can fill 2 spots with Tera Blast Fighting or Foul Play (which can work somewhat as it has great Def bulk and CB works on Foul Play), and Parting Shot to pivot out.
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Parting Shot
- Malignant Chain
- Hex/Night Shade
- Recover
Probably most standard if standard sets you can get for this Pokemon. 0 Spe IVs so it can Parting Shot as slow as possible. Malignant Chain for Badly Poisoning targets while also confusing them. Hex to combo with Toxic spreading and to hit Gliscor hard. Night Shade also being an option for Steel or Poison types it can’t status. Recover to keep itself healthy while it pivots.
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 180 SpA / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Malignant Chain
- Hex
- Recover
Same exact moves and Tera, but you outspeed no investment Gliscor and hit way harder. 16 Def and Bold is the first stat bump you. Rest is poured into SpA to make Malignant Chain and Hex stronger.
Pecharunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Fighting/Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tera Blast/Foul Play
- Gunk Shot
- Poltergeist
- Parting Shot
More meme than something threatening in OU. It has 2 really good physical STAB options but those are really it’s only good physical options. Luckily still can fill 2 spots with Tera Blast Fighting or Foul Play (which can work somewhat as it has great Def bulk and CB works on Foul Play), and Parting Shot to pivot out.
I very much doubt it. Not only was Confusion nerfed like in Gen 7, but you only confuse the target if you poison them, so only 1 time and can’t be used against Steel/Poison types.so like... swagger is banned for being heavily luck-based and, therefore, uncompetitive. what is the basis behind the notion that
Things are crazy in this generation, Tyranitar was already in RU, Garchomp UU, Terrakion PU, Deoxys-D UU, Manaphy was considered a suspect in DLC1 for UU, etc.
Darkrai only has one 80 base power STAB, dependent on accuracy, and as long as there are Zamazenta, Dragapult, Deoxys-Speed and Booster Energy Speed abusers its speed won't be surprising, if the new toy syndrome passes and UU knocks on the door I won't be surprised .
I hate ladder, I just lost 300 ELO in two days
edit: I think I have to give up on Incineroar guys, 1778 ELO is as far as I could take him
edit: I think I have to give up on Incineroar guys, 1778 ELO is as far as I could take him
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I mean, there might be a KO that Blizzard secures for Darkrai which Ice Beam doesn't. And Snow is decent this gen so it'll be 100% accurate a fair amount of the time. That seems like the least shitty part of your list tbh.
There was no snow, it was raw blizzard. I do agree with you, but the team was full of crazy moves, I don't think they were thinking about that.
Well Darkrai is a free space thankfully since its already been tested down here, Now we just need Lugia and Roaring moon and its the freest bingo ever. (Roaring Moon is the most broken thing in the tier right now besides Kyurem so I'm gonna go bold and say top row bingo is the most likely here to actually happen since Darkrai has already been tested, and Roaring Moon is very likely to be tested out of the tier.)
Anyway as much as the topic of testing Ubers down has been beaten to death already, I do hope the council considers the idea of letting Lugia be used in some OUPL tournaments like Darkrai was or at least give it a fair shake in OU once things settle down a bit, because Lugia's flaws of being exploitable by knock off/trick/status, as well as setup fodder against some physical sweepers like Kingambit and Trick Darkrai, could end up being exploitable enough to stay in OU, and Lugia could bring some decent defensive utility into the tier due to how fat it is. (Even if its Psychic/Flying type is a huge burden for it in that department, and well the bulk being obnoxious.)
Also fun to mention not that this necessarily gives merit to testing Lugia, but Lugia is just not good at all really in Ubers UU, a format in between OU and Ubers power levels as we all know, where even some stronger OU pokemon are viable or able to thrive. its not just outclassed by Necrozma Dawn Wings and Solgaleo as defensive pokemon, but its still too passive for the tier and not good on its own merits. Which is even worse than a pokemon like Reshiram, who is mainly bad up there because its just very outclassed by Chi Yu and Kyurem White, not that it couldn't be good necessarily without those two not being in the tier. Not that this is relevant but it just shows how weak Lugia is as a box legendary if its worse off than Reshiram and potentially gonna place even lower than the two Zamazentas and Reshiram on the Ubers UU vr.
Heres the thing. It is BULKY, with 90 attacking stats, it is not going to be too passive. It's weak by those standards because again, Ubers and UUbers power level is much higher. At least you suggested a test, otherwise that would be too crazy of an idea. It does have an exploitable typing, but it can hit back with shadow ball or earthquake/earth power. Combine that with a great 110 speed, and this thing would be deadly. It simply is too much of a stat check.
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Lugia: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 151-178 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Lugia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 128-152 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
These are the strongest moves of two of the best mons, now about darkrai.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 242-285 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lugia even with zero bulk is so tanky, and it hits back hard, with no investment it can at least 3 hit ko them back. Lugia is too much for OU, but hey, Deo-D was underwhelming so maybe, but I think it is a lost cause.
Note that these calcs don't include rocks damage, which is very likely to chip away at it in practice with the amount of knock off in the meta, so those calcs are a little bit misleading.
Yes, it doesn't take a genius to know how bulky Lugia is, but honestly a 2hko from the likes of Darkrai and a 2hko from specs Ghold just goes to show how far powercreep has come, because with rocks a lot of these rolls to 3hko or 2hko would be rolls to OKHO or guaranteed 2HKOs, which really limits the items it can run, along with the fact it really cannot always fit the moves it wants to to hit everything without sacrificing setup moves or roost in its set, so there is notable 4MSS. I feel like with Lugia its something that we would have to see in practice before we would know if it would end up being broken or not. Either way it would be obnoxious though, even if it's not really a good reason to not test something since obnoxious does not always equal broken as we know. Either way I hope the council considers a test for it, as it feels like a pokemon that would be reasonable to test down here.
I forgot about rocks lol because I forgot to mention that you could run HDB, which would be great for longevity. My main point was that even without investment, these hits still are 2 hit ko's. With investment, these could become 3 hit ko's, meaning lugia can recover off some of the damage and get a damage in.
Lugia @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Recover
- Earth Power
- Dragon Tail
- Future Sight
Sample set, reminder that tera is still in the picture, so lugia can easily get out of its typing. While that is a lot of commitment, a pokemon with those stats would be worthy of using your tera. It does have 4mss, but you can go two routes which don't have this issue. Either set up, which you would probably not use recovery moves because your initial speed is so great, or bulky, which doesn't want set up moves as that compromises it's walling capabilities. I get where your coming from, lugia does have those issues you've outlined, but I think they are small in comparison to what lugia can do. It can't do everything in it's moveset, but if it focuses on one aspect, it will do that with surgical precision.
I have finally gotten to the 1100s with my gimmick account. Thoughts on getting to 1200s?
apparently it does, because very few people here seem to be able to grasp how bonkers in fucking yonkers its bulk is. 106/130/154 with an effective +2 in both defenses as long as it stays healthy (which it's absolutely capable of doing thanks to recover) is absurd. did you not notice that those calcs were done with no investment? here's how things go if we actually do put some evs into lugia:
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 94-112 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- 41.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 151-178 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 239-282 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
see that? that's a supereffective kowtow cleave that isn't even guaranteed to break substitute (if you can get one up and heal beforehand, which is a shockingly plausible task). keep in mind that these are if lugia doesn't tera. if it teras into a neutral type, these are the calcs without multiscale. and this is just the ev spread i went with off the top of my head—i'm certain there are way better optimized spreads out there. what i'm getting at is, lugia does not die, and it's not even setup bait because it's got decent attacking stats and phazing capability. this is not a mon that should exist in ou in any capacity
I think the bigger issue with swagger was the sheer distribution of it. If only a few pokemon got it idk if it would be banned in older gens but fucking everything gets it so you can actually build a "Swagger Team"
we will be running swagger mirror herb entei
Btw let’s compare Lugia to Ting-Lu in terms of bulk.
Ting-Lu:
252+ Atk Kyurem Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 266-314 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 246-290 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
Lugia with Multiscale:
252+ Atk Kyurem Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 129-153 (31 - 36.7%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Lugia: 105-124 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lugia after Multiscale is broken:
252+ Atk Kyurem Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 258-306 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyurem Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lugia: 210-248 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
We can see that Lugia is massively bulkier than Ting-Lu with Multiscale up and only marginally frailer without it. Keep in mind that Lugia also has set up moves, reliable recovery, better speed, way more coverage, and tons of utility options too.
I actually fucking ran into that once it's not even funny
it claimed my Raging Bolt but that was about it
It's bulkier but so what? All those calcs are showing is Lugia as a glorified punch-bag, at least Ting can set hazards, phaze or cripple those mons with Ruination, what's Lugia doing back other than waste their PP before it dies? People are ignoring the many other dowsides of Lugia like bad typing, helpless to every status condition, low power, hazard weak, Huge 4MSS, loss of Toxic which allowed it to break through bulky mons which made it set-up bait and loss of T-Wave and Defog which made it a better support mon.. Like the previous calcs between Ghambit, Dhengo and Darkrai, yes Lugia can stomach a hit but what's is it doing back to any of those mons which you can't even 2HKO when they univested in bulk? Let's use a previous post as an example and assume your Lugia has two slots reserved for Roost and Substitute, now let's assume you have Earth Power what else are you packing? Ice for bulky grounds and dragons? TeraBlast for a possible for darks who don't care about EP? Calm Mind? You still lose to every Unaware mon in the tier, Ting/Hamurott still use you as set-up for Hazards, you're too weak to win CM wars, too many mons in the tier make it a momentum drain, etc. I get it, it's BST+Multiscale makes it look like it doesn't die but every decent archetype has no-niche tools to combat it. I'm not saying to drop it now especially since DLC2 got released in less than a month but I ask people to consider just how much it has changed for it in the generation shift, like the Recovery nerf, massive Hazard influx than any other generation, loss of key moves to diminish it's passivity, etc.
Apples to oranges. Terapagos got even fatter than Lugia post-tera and unlike Lugia wasn't a momentum drain, it packed a great 130 SpA, an Unresisted attack with 120 power, bigger coverage and Stored Power for maximum cheese.