Sorry
Just A Shroom God I wanted to let the sleep conversation stand as I too was thinking it was getting repetitive. But here we are. I'd like to just respond to a few new arguments I haven't heard before.
ant4456 said:Because no one has made a good replacement!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know why this is so hard to get! The ideas presented to replace Sleep Mod Clause, that are not just ban sleep moves, are terrible!
"Grey out the moves" you can literally still have scenarios where you are forced into Sleep move again, and thus this is not a viable solution.
ESPECIALLY adding a second win condition by making your opponent sleep two Pokemon. That is a TERRIBLE idea. The reason we have Sleep Mod Clause in the first place is because of this exact mentality: "We want to preserve Sleep, what is the best way to do it." None of the "clever" clause ideas have been good. None of them work. You are not clever for thinking "lol just make it work like on cart, it ends the game," we literally made a mod for it because that scenario is dogshit and makes the game worse!
The best way to fix Sleep is just to mod the game. Which is an unacceptable decision.
First argument I've heard like this (aside from Cuddly's post which I read at the same time as this; I'm responding to this cuz its a bit more fleshed out) so the "idk whats so hard to get" is hard to say when its an argument not being made (to me at least). Really I haven't seen enough discussion on MeepBard's implementation of Sleep (greying out) at all, it seems largely ignored from what I can tell. As far as I am aware, they have proposed solutions to the issues people suggest. Choice Trick or Encore into spamming sleep moves only works in a scenario where they cannot switch, if they can just switch they would in that scenario. In cases where they are trapped or they are the last mon, MeepBard's suggestion of just allowing the second sleep to get off does not seem to break anything at all. If the opponent is going out of their way almost to force them to spam sleep moves, than they should have to deal with multiple pokemon asleep. The only realistic scenario this would happen in would be in cases where the sleep user is the last mon, in which case why would they encore them into a sleep move?
Srn said:The proposal of having a gentleman's agreement to not click the Sleep Move doesn't take away these artificial gamestates. If you get Encored or Tricked a Choice Scarf, you may still want to Spore something, but once somebody is asleep, then what? The proposal would artificially create a forced switch on the Spore user, even if the optimal play is to stay in and keep Sporing. Should the simulator just gray out all your moves for you in this scenario, where a cartridge would not?
This scenario defeats the purpose of the 'gentleman's agreement'. "The optimal play is to keep Sporing" does not really matter in cases where you already agreed at the top of the battle to not sleep more than one pokemon. By the same logic, the 'optimal' play is to bring Flutter Mane and just click buttons. If youre saying the optimal play is to break the gentleman's agreement, youre not really talking about OU anymore.
Srn said:By this logic, should we have banned the multiple problematic users of baton pass after attempting complex bans on baton pass itself and seeing baton pass chains still be potent? After we limited baton pass to 1 per team, do you think the correct tiering action would be to ban smeargle, espeon, scolipede, etc? At some point, you have to call out the common thread and act on that instead, rather than waiting to see if people can still find ways to make sleep/baton pass uncompetitive with different mons.
To use the Baton Pass example again, when it was being discussed for tiering action, it was obviously done so with the most potent abusers in mind. It was still Baton Pass that got axed, not scolipede/espeon/smeargle/etc, and the baton pass abusers went on to be perfectly healthy (and arguably bad) parts of the meta. I think it would have been silly to ban the above 3 mons and just cross our fingers to see if baton pass found a way to be broken again. Likewise, if we discard the most potent abusers of sleep, I really don't want to waste more time finding out if new ones crop up. I would rather axe the uncompetitive mechanic at hand, axe the complex nerf that is now failing to keep it under control, and cleanly reduce variance and RNG fishing in OU today.
Baton pass is a similar situation but not exactly the same. In this case, you're phrasing it as 'we only knew three pokemon were uncompetitive with Baton Pass'. But if you go back and look at past threads around the banning of baton pass, you'll realize it was far more than just Scolipede, Espeon, and Smeargle being talked about. There were other pokemon that were causing problematic scenarios and even additional pokemon you could mention in the way of: "If we ban Scolipede, don't we still have a similar problematic issue in Ninjask/Yanmega". There were
far more than three pokemon that were broken with Baton Pass at the time. In the sleep discussion, it really is just three anyone is talking about. You might not want to waste more time finding out if new ones crop up, but there is no one even close to the horizon of popping up. And who would it be? Unova Lilligant? Vivillon? Are we still debating Amoonguss? I really don't feel the list of broken pokemon is that high, and the ones that do exist don't seem to add as much to the metagame as every possible Baton Pass user did (like 20% of the meta at the time, including necessary walls, so it really made no sense to ban pokemon specifically and not baton pass.)
I actually like debating why this doesn't work much more than the repetitive sleep conversations we've been having. Hopefully we can continue to have a productive conversation on this.
