Unpopular opinions

Worldie said:
To the "type moves above"...
This is all fine and dandy but did you forget what happened that one time they made a move that flips one of its type affinities?

No? Let me tell you, Freeze Dry broke or almost broke several of the pokemon that learn it, specifically because one the typical switch ins of ice type, water types, suddently aren't safe anymore (and in fact, with how many water + iceweak pokemon there are, the amount of stuff Freeze Dry hits supereffectively is quite insane).

So please no, we don't need moves that "change the type chart". Messing with the game systems often proves problematic, expecially longterm, unless balanced by very heavy negatives, see Freeze Dry or also Urshifu basically breaking the entire game by virtue of negating one of the most important aspects of the game ("clicking protect is always safe the first time").
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I mean, this is why I said "a few" and not "all" - I think there is also much merit in it being one Pokemon's gimmick too (I have to admit I'd forgotten Corrosion's existence when I wrote that).

Re the example you cited, Ice is already a pretty strong offensive type so yes, Freeze-Dry did end up being rather overpowered

But going with the Acid example... Poison is quite a weak offensive type and if Acid were given a Steel-punishing effect while keeping its current 40 BP there's no way that'd be broken.

It doesn't literally have to be the types I cited either, they were just examples. I am not a master of game design but there are definitely ways to do this and not make it completely broken. And hey, if it is, they'll just remove the move in question in the next game anyhow.

AztecCroc said:
They didn't change up teams in the main story, only rematches.
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...I didn't say they did? I said they could have done, which is not the same thing.

Also you're not quite right about that in any case, Clair's team was changed and they altered the levels of some of the others.
 
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Antihaxxer said:
Freeze Dry did work well.
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You could say Freeze Dry works *too well* in OU as it was a heavy contributor to Iron Bundle's ban (since water + freeze dry is perfect coverage) and also to Kyurem's previous (and potentially incoming) ban.
Part of it is also due to how specifically the types weak to ice are often paired with water type (we have a lot of flying/water and ground/water pokemon nowadays) making it actually more oppressive than it already is, and the freeze chance is just a icing on the cake, where even if you switch in a actual resist it's still at risk of a freeze.

Antihaxxer said:
Flying Press was just bad because it's almost never very effective in OU :D and it's hard to explain to use it vs Brave Bird / Close Combat
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The main issue Flying Press has is that it's not really a upgrade and not even a sidegrade over the two stabs. Not only it has both lower BP and accuracy, but ultimately the resulting type chart efficiency is actually worse than just having the two stabs. Even before Hawlucha got the amazing BB + CC combo (it needs a AA now ngl), you'd often just not run one of the two stabs or run a suboptimal option like Acrobatics (which sinergized with Unburden anyway) or High Jump Kick.

Flying Press is honestly the one type of "type chart fuckery" I wouldn't mind them repeating since "mixing two types" doesn't really result in overbearing coverage and rather mostly results in a spammable neutral hit. One can make the point that "spammable neutral hits" can also get out of hands (as shown by Blood Moon Ursaluna and ghostspam) but if they are gated by lower BP it's a ok trade.
 
CPU said:
Considering half of the reason Steel exists was to nerf Psychic... I doubt they'd do this.

Now, if they want to retool the move Kinesis to have an effect like this, or introduce an entirely new move in the same vein as Freeze-Dry, that could be reasonable.

Psychic is unfortunately "balanced" by having a rather disproportionate amount of legendary Pokémon with the typing, which tends to make the weaker Psychic types struggle.

...I'm also realizing that a good number of Psychic Pokémon have extremely good Abilities/signature moves to buff them up. Maybe I'm just having tunnel vision, but there aren't a lot of truly bad Psychic lines.
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I feel like something they could stand to do to help psychic types is via better moves. We’ve been using Zen headbutt/Psychic/psyshock for so long that we could reasonably do so like what Fighting has had happen comparing gen 1 to 3 or even 4.
Stuff like a Fire Blast equivalent, or the aforementioned Freeze dry equivalent, would allow better balancing as well unlike a type change, where stronger Pokémon get way more stronger then weaker Mons. Like you could give a Freeze dry equivalent to almost all psychic types except for particularly broken ones like Lele.
 
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Worldie said:
The main issue Flying Press has is that it's not really a upgrade and not even a sidegrade over the two stabs. Not only it has both lower BP and accuracy, but ultimately the resulting type chart efficiency is actually worse than just having the two stabs. Even before Hawlucha got the amazing BB + CC combo (it needs a AA now ngl), you'd often just not run one of the two stabs or run a suboptimal option like Acrobatics (which synergized with Unburden anyway) or High Jump Kick.
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There's the issue of Fighting being involved, meaning that it has no way to hit Ghosts. Even beyond that, Fighting and Flying also have a weird relationship with each other, they're not particularly similar or different. Something like Fire/Dark would interact with a lot of the type chart, Ice/Water would be severe moveslot compression, or Dark/Ghost would just be funny. I don't know if any of those would be good/useless/broken, but they all seem like they'd at least answer questions that the uselessness of Flying Press didn't help with.

I feel like GF isn't really exploiting Dexit. If they're going to go through with eliminating mons/moves* from the game, then own it. Make a bunch of experimental stuff, release it with the second DLC, and then delete anything that doesn't work from the next game. Try stuff out. They're willing to release broken stuff, but that's not what I mean. Release stuff that's weird, stuff which maybe a creative player can break with edge case interactions, or stuff where it's truly unclear if it will be broken or useless. If it's broken or trash, get rid of it, if it's good, double down.

*but not items for some reason
 
Valoo said:
Did it not? Hail isn’t in the game any more.
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Not sure what Hail the move does in Gen 9, or if hail the weather is still coded in the game (probably is, Desolate Land comes up occasionally in the mechanics research thread) but Snowscape is a new move separate from Hail. It's not like Feint Attack or Thunder Punch or Vise Grip where the move's name changed, it's a whole new move with its own ID and everything.
 
Castersvarog said:
I feel like something they could stand to do to help psychic types is via better moves. We’ve been using Zen headbutt/Psychic/psyshock for so long that we could reasonably do so like what Fighting has had happen comparing gen 1 to 3 or even 4.
Stuff like a Fire Blast equivalent, or the aforementioned Freeze dry equivalent, would allow better balancing as well unlike a type change, where stronger Pokémon get way more stronger then weaker Mons. Like you could give a Freeze dry equivalent to almost all psychic types except for particularly broken ones like Lele.
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This is actually a really good point, and something I feel Psychic is long overdue for. Psychic is supposed to be a very strong special type, but so far when it comes to actual attacks it lacks a lot of really high BP moves. Zen Headbutt, Psyshock, and Psychic are all in the 90 BP range, and Psychic while good is still more or less just a "good" move akin to Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt, but I feel Psychic is definitely deserving of a 110-120 BP STAB that a lot of Psychic-types can use to hit with raw power akin to Fire Blast, Snow/Hail-induced Blizzard, and whatnot.

Fighting in particular became powerful over the years from its introduction of extremely high BP moves for its Pokemon to use, namely Close Combat which has been a staple STAB for a long time, and we also have stuff like High Jump Kick being buffed to 130 BP as other examples. The closest Psychic has to a super strong STAB is Psychic Terrain-induced Expanding Force, which is extremely deadly on the Pokemon that can use it: look at Armarouge and Indeedee for instance. Those Pokemon manage to be really great offensive Psychic-types because they have such a powerful weapon at their disposal there. Or historically Deoxys with Psycho Boost in Ubers. Those are rare instances of Psychic Pokemon having really good STAB at their disposal.

I feel giving Psychic more powerful STAB options on both sides, but especially the special side, would help them a lot there, especially since most are primarily offensively oriented and want to be wallbreakers/sweepers. It would also be a good way to help Psychic differentiate from Ghost, which has similar offensive interactions, but better defensive properties, but as far as moves is intentionally stripped of particularly powerful ones, instead getting moves like Shadow Ball and Phantom Force which have more utility instead of sheer power. Psychic getting more raw power moves would help differentiate from that and also help Psychic-types capitalize on the more offensively oriented nature of their own type.
 
Castersvarog said:
I feel like something they could stand to do to help psychic types is via better moves. We’ve been using Zen headbutt/Psychic/psyshock for so long that we could reasonably do so like what Fighting has had happen comparing gen 1 to 3 or even 4.
Stuff like a Fire Blast equivalent, or the aforementioned Freeze dry equivalent, would allow better balancing as well unlike a type change, where stronger Pokémon get way more stronger then weaker Mons. Like you could give a Freeze dry equivalent to almost all psychic types except for particularly broken ones like Lele.
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I don't agree because the problem with Psychic moves is not power, it's that there are so many amazing Dark and Steel types. Your 120 BP Psychic move is still doing 0% to Kingambit, and that means you are still relying on dual types (which are usually only made worse with Psychic defensively. For instance, Hatterene would probably be a lot better as mono Fairy to resist Dark and Bug, not be weak to Ghost), or coverage which is usually bleh. Focus Blast, anyone?
 
I think Psychic needs Physical moves more than Special on that particular front of "weakness," simply because the best Physical Psychic moves are frequently around or even slightly weaker than the middle-ground moves of other types. The most commonly distributed one is Zen Headbutt, which takes an accuracy Penalty like it thinks it's a Rock attack while having an 80 BP on the level of Iron Head or Waterfall, which shares the same Flinch Chance (the latter having Wave Crash as a strong STAB distributed upgrade) or Poison Jab with the comparably decent-but-mild regular Poison proc (which goes up to Gunk Shot).

I think the big hurdle is that the ideas I'd attribute to Psychic would also work for Fighting (stuff like mind-rattling or striking nerves in the head), so it'd have to b a decision on GF's part AND particular to the Mons receiving it compared to the more generic nature of Psychic/Psyshock or Zen/Psycho Cut.

ant4456 said:
I don't agree because the problem with Psychic moves is not power, it's that there are so many amazing Dark and Steel types. Your 120 BP Psychic move is still doing 0% to Kingambit, and that means you are still relying on dual types (which are usually only made worse with Psychic defensively. For instance, Hatterene would probably be a lot better as mono Fairy to resist Dark and Bug, not be weak to Ghost), or coverage which is usually bleh. Focus Blast, anyone?
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True to an extent, but on the old "Types aren't designed equal for mons" talk like we had with Bugs, Psychic's niche over Fairy could theoretically be access to those higher BP moves. Gardevoir for example chooses between a 90 BP Moonblast that will have fewer stops (no Immunities and the resistance it has vs Psychic in Fire is less commonly used for such) or a 120 BP STAB that requires more carefully watching for Dark switch-ins. One might help more against offensive teams that crumble more easily to strong neutral output, while the other can break more defensive opponents that have raw bulk but typings with some notable weaknesses (Clodsire and Galarian Slowking for example fear one much more than the other thanks to their Poison sub-type).

Fairy they seem to consciously avoid giving a generally-distributed 100 BP+ move (Moonblast caps at 95 and any other is a Signature or has a drawback like Misty Explosion), so it's probably not MEANT to come across as a hugely powerful type vs the users. This could b Psychic's main point of design distinction instead of "Fairy but less useful" as it's felt since the type's introduction.
 
pika pal said:
I think Psychic needs Physical moves more than Special on that particular front of "weakness," simply because the best Physical Psychic moves are frequently around or even slightly weaker than the middle-ground moves of other types. The most commonly distributed one is Zen Headbutt, which takes an accuracy Penalty like it thinks it's a Rock attack while having an 80 BP on the level of Iron Head or Waterfall, which shares the same Flinch Chance (the latter having Wave Crash as a strong STAB distributed upgrade) or Poison Jab with the comparably decent-but-mild regular Poison proc (which goes up to Gunk Shot).

I think the big hurdle is that the ideas I'd attribute to Psychic would also work for Fighting (stuff like mind-rattling or striking nerves in the head), so it'd have to b a decision on GF's part AND particular to the Mons receiving it compared to the more generic nature of Psychic/Psyshock or Zen/Psycho Cut.


True to an extent, but on the old "Types aren't designed equal for mons" talk like we had with Bugs, Psychic's niche over Fairy could theoretically be access to those higher BP moves. Gardevoir for example chooses between a 90 BP Moonblast that will have fewer stops (no Immunities and the resistance it has vs Psychic in Fire is less commonly used for such) or a 120 BP STAB that requires more carefully watching for Dark switch-ins. One might help more against offensive teams that crumble more easily to strong neutral output, while the other can break more defensive opponents that have raw bulk but typings with some notable weaknesses (Clodsire and Galarian Slowking for example fear one much more than the other thanks to their Poison sub-type).

Fairy they seem to consciously avoid giving a generally-distributed 100 BP+ move (Moonblast caps at 95 and any other is a Signature or has a drawback like Misty Explosion), so it's probably not MEANT to come across as a hugely powerful type vs the users. This could b Psychic's main point of design distinction instead of "Fairy but less useful" as it's felt since the type's introduction.
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If you say that dual types being required is fine, then I just don't agree. Because if you view it through the lens of dualtyping, then Psychic is not a problem. Mons like Tapu Lele show that Psychic can still work with a good dualtype. I just don't think that is how you should view it at all. IMO you should value it by monotypes and dualtypes, not just one.

Sure Grass Type is not some crazy top tier type, but plenty of mono Grass types have been viable even in OU. Off the top of my head is Rillaboom and Tangrowth. Mega Alakazam and Reuniclus are the only two Psychic types I can think of and they're also a bit of an exception. Mega Alakazam has the coveted Focus Blast that a lot of Psychics don't have, and also is just kinda busted stats. Reuniclus was crazy in Gen 5 OU but ever since then has been basically entirely replaced my Clefable, a Fairy Type. Hmmmm.

I don't want Psychic to only be good if it's next to a way better secondary type, or if it has crazy stat distribution. I've seen some claim Dragons are only so good due to stat distribution on average, and I disagree. In older gens especially it was pretty customary for every tier below OU to just try and have its own slice of the limited Dragon type pie, since it's just a good defensive typing, with a lot of key resistances. That's what Psychic lacks. It doesn't have anything it adds to your team defensively, and offensively it's stifled by Dark and Steel types. You have to fix one of those problems.

High BST moves fixes neither. You need to justify running a Pokemon by "what problem does this solve". Psychic types would still not solve any problem, they'd just be in a vacuum strong. In practice, they'd still die and get owned by many Knock Off, U-Turn and be murdered by Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon, etc. etc. etc.
 
ant4456 said:
If you say that dual types being required is fine, then I just don't agree. Because if you view it through the lens of dualtyping, then Psychic is not a problem. Mons like Tapu Lele show that Psychic can still work with a good dualtype. I just don't think that is how you should view it at all. IMO you should value it by monotypes and dualtypes, not just one.

Sure Grass Type is not some crazy top tier type, but plenty of mono Grass types have been viable even in OU. Off the top of my head is Rillaboom and Tangrowth. Mega Alakazam and Reuniclus are the only two Psychic types I can think of and they're also a bit of an exception. Mega Alakazam has the coveted Focus Blast that a lot of Psychics don't have, and also is just kinda busted stats. Reuniclus was crazy in Gen 5 OU but ever since then has been basically entirely replaced my Clefable, a Fairy Type. Hmmmm.

I don't want Psychic to only be good if it's next to a way better secondary type, or if it has crazy stat distribution. I've seen some claim Dragons are only so good due to stat distribution on average, and I disagree. In older gens especially it was pretty customary for every tier below OU to just try and have its own slice of the limited Dragon type pie, since it's just a good defensive typing, with a lot of key resistances. That's what Psychic lacks. It doesn't have anything it adds to your team defensively, and offensively it's stifled by Dark and Steel types. You have to fix one of those problems.

High BST moves fixes neither. You need to justify running a Pokemon by "what problem does this solve". Psychic types would still not solve any problem, they'd just be in a vacuum strong. In practice, they'd still die and get owned by many Knock Off, U-Turn and be murdered by Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon, etc. etc. etc.
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There is a VERY significant reason Tapu Lele wants its Psychic STAB that isn't inherent to the Average Psychic type here. The problem for Psychic is that it's supplanted by dual types that do what it does BETTER, because it doesn't do anything unique from those direct comparisons (see the raw power point I made with the Gardevoir example) nor is it strong enough to compensate when it's going up against them: See Lele in your example running its Psychic STAB despite the offensive problems with Steel BECAUSE it's strong enough to break through the type even resisted. The type shouldn't stop dead into any Steel Type (which the low BP moves cause), but into the type on users meant to take blows.
 
ant4456 said:
as a psychic type fan, please literally just make us neutral to steel

like holy shit dude we have a theme of bending metal spoons, we do not need to be resisted by the best type in the game. Then there is 20,000 Dark Types, and the offensive prowess is fucking mid. SE against Fighting Types which have Knock Off and U-Turn, and Poison. Poison is interesting but then a lot of Poison types have dualtypes that make it not matter.
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Problem with that is the whole point of Steel balance Psychic in Gen 2.
 
the balancing of psychic types in gen2 (which weren't a serious problem to begin with in gen1, i wouldn't even call them the best type) was probably excessive in hindsight, and I have no problem peeling back some of those changes if doing so makes sense
 
Even then, the Type Chart is a lot more delicate than even I myself thought. The most allowed is up to three changes, or else it’ll cause a domino effect to the point it became too distinct from what we’ve been used to.

18 types is also plentiful in the type chart as-is, so the new type must interact with types that could use a buff or to keep the top-tier types in check like Fairy did to Dragon and Fighting, otherwise they’ll be redundant at best.
 
very unpopular, but i wouldn't mind if they did big changes to the type table that would take time to get used to, as long as a) it improved the competitiveness and b) the decisions made sense with regards to flavour/lore. of course, a) is very hard to be sure of without extensive testing, so i get that this hasn't and won't ever be done, but i like the thought.
 
imo i would rather some of the better types get nerfed a bit than buffing the worse ones. it makes the game more interesting when types have clearly defined roles like how ice is great offensively and awful defensively. i like the idea of a type like water being good at offense and defense but in practice its like, one of the best defensive types while also being so good offensively that spamming water moves is a playstyle. it feels like a big failure in game design since the type is just kinda good at everything.
 
ant4456 said:
It was a bad idea. You don't have to commit to the bit for 30 years.
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No it wasn’t. Back in RBY, Psychic only resisted itself and was only weak to Bug, which was only the pathetically weak Twineedle at 15 BP. It was more broken than Dragon in Gens 4 to 5. Dark and Steel existing also gave Fighting types more useful since Psychic’s dominance made them useless in Gen 1. Also worth noting that Dragon/Psychic were originally designed to be “boss” types, which is why they were intentionally designed to be better than the other types. It’s also the motive for why so many Legendary Pokémon ended with Psychic and Dragon types; GF have officially stated why Lugia was Psychic as opposed to water is because they wanted to create a stronger “impression”. Similar logic was applied to Latios/Latias as well: They were debating between Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Psychic but ultimately decided Dragon/Psychic for that stronger impression- levitate was given to make up for the fact that they weren’t flying types but were still “ flying “.
 
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