I think we should be discussing Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire a lot right now. Perhaps in that order.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
It’s just not updated. But you wanna hear my conspiracy theory? I think the person in charge of updating Showdown wants Archaludon in OU, so is delaying it so that Magcargo and Co. can secretly overthrow the council, turn the site to a dictatorship, and reverse the Arch decision.
so what I'm hearing is Scarlet fans stay winning
I'd put Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire above Raging Bolt in that order respectively.
It only takes a single turn for Roaring Moon to steal games, which is helped by the fact that its bulk and Typing is just enough to squeeze in a Dragon Dance and it can flip almost any bad MUs on its head with a single Tera. Roaring Moon greatly appreciates the decreased usage of Iron Boulder too.
Gouging Fire is in a similar boat to Roaring Moon, but it instead accumulates numerous Dragon Dance boosts and heals up with Morning Sun before blasting apart entire teams. It's even less prone to priority than Roaring Moon was because of its phenomenal bulk, physical and special. Again, being able to Tera against threats that it would otherwise lose to and accumulate many Dragon Dance boosts goes a long way.
I ultimately think Tera as a whole should go. We have so many volatile setup sweepers that you really can't afford to second guess them before they run away with games after their second boost and they have the ability to cheat past whatever checks and counters they would normally have. It's evident to me though that the community (judging from the past forum forms) does not want a Tera ban, so unfortunately we'll just have to make do with suspecting the problematic abusers. Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, Kingambit and Volcarona.
I've been having decent success with gouging fire on sticky web teams, with sunny day ribombee to activate proto and get the attack boost. You combine the sun team boost while having more flexibility with teamates. Still think it is not banworthy at the moment, but that could change. It needs adamant to get full power, but is then outsped by tusk and drill.
Raging bolt I'm a bit split on because it can be super powerful, but also feels limited by its electric typing. If we were to hold a vote, I would ban it as while it can be stopped, it can feel oppresive at times.
Roaring Moon is the most banworthy to me atm, it only needs to get get off one dd and it can then sweep the game, and unlike other mons it has the coverage neccesary and power to break through mons.
220 Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 198-234 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If that ain't crazy, idk what is. Ban this immediately, at least the others have weaknesses, but moon doesn't. It isn't even frail as 105/71/101 is great bulk.
TLDR, Moon is most broken, then bolt, then fire.
(Quick note, serperior can be disgusting at times, I beat a volcarona with it, and I only had leaf storm as an attack. Wtf is that)
Samurott-Hisui (F) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Aqua Cutter
- Focus Energy
- Tera Blast
It's been kinda heat. Ribombee seems to bring out a lot of things that this can set up on- especially ghould. Once it's out I'll sometimes hit focus energy which does pretty good damage to a lot of things that like to come in. Webs lets me outspeed a lot of things so I'd maybe run adamant but I don't get webs up enough to give up the speed the rest of the time. Crit Tera Elec nearly OHKOs corv and skarm, kills primarina, Tera elec turns thunderclap into a negligible enough move to 2hko raging bolt.
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Aqua Cutter
- Focus Energy
- Tera Blast
It's been kinda heat. Ribombee seems to bring out a lot of things that this can set up on- especially ghould. Once it's out I'll sometimes hit focus energy which does pretty good damage to a lot of things that like to come in. Webs lets me outspeed a lot of things so I'd maybe run adamant but I don't get webs up enough to give up the speed the rest of the time. Crit Tera Elec nearly OHKOs corv and skarm, kills primarina, Tera elec turns thunderclap into a negligible enough move to 2hko raging bolt.
Agree on Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire, especially Roaring Moon. Disagree on Raging Bolt at the moment.
I know Bolt has gotten a lot of attention lately. It's quite slow, doesn't speed boost much with Dragon Dance like Gouging can, and has a priority move that nearly every team has a common immunity to on it. It can be hard to switch into. But I feel it basically acts as a Wallbreaker with a priority move. And even most opposing priority mons will out priority it because of the Speed tier. The Dragon typing does resist Grassy Glide and Aqua Jet, but likely not if it Teras to live your team's ground type. Although I guess something like Tera grass is maybe an option, it opens you up to other weaknesses. Raging Bolt is also kind of a Tera hog. If it Tera's to live a hit, that means its teammates can't utilize it. This may or may not be enough value out of the Tera to secure the win. But often it isn't since Bolt isn't really a sweeper.
It is splashable on a lot of playstyles and I think a vital glue mon for the current meta. With Arch gone, rain should be more manageable but still good. With both Arch and Bolt gone, rain will be back in the pits. Even though Bolt is far from exclusive to rain, I do think rain should be allowed some bulky glue mons. I would also like to see Gouging Fire go before we see another rain nerf. Sun is likely to be too strong over rain in the short term because of the Arch nerf to rain and Gouging Fire destroying every defensive core like a physical Chi Yu. Meanwhile, Bolt is good on both weather styles. But a Bolt ban would be far more detrimental to rain at this point. I would argue to take away the Sun exclusive mon first and see where we are at.
I also believe a Bolt ban would be bad for Balance since it is such a good glue mon. There are a lot of potential threats with speed that can tear apart a balance core too easily. The threat of a Thunderclap mitigates this somewhat. In gen 9, you basically can't run a viable non-stall team with no priority moves. There are simply too many threats to account for everything. And you can't run a balance core or bulky offense with no viable bulky cores.
There has been a lot said about Kingambit and whether or not that should be banned. Raging Bolt is kinda like a special Gambit, except it only gets one free special attack boost as opposed to Gambit's Supreme Overloard, which adds up over the game and is valid on every switch in. If you force Raging Bolt out, the Protosynthesis Boost is over except on Sun. The difference in typing on the priority moves is also huge. Not only does nearly every team run an electric immunity as a matter of course, but the Electric typing in general is way easier to resist than Dark type STAB. I would argue that if we are going to ban Raging Bolt, we should look at Kingambit again first. And if I had to choose only one to keep in the tier, I would keep Bolt in the tier. Not Gambit. Folks can disagree with that, but I really think Bolt is easier to deal with of the two.
Speaking of Dark type STAB being very hard to switch into, Roaring Moon has already been rightfully banned before. It has a way better speed tier than the other mentioned mons and Dragon Dance on it is just silly. The only ways to really counter it are unaware mons and priority, but booster attack still hits Unaware mons and the priority can be potentially countered by Tera if a certain move gets too common. However, Tera Flying is by far Roaring Moon's most common set. Raging Bolt counters this with Thunderclap. Yes, they could just not Tera. But if they don't Tera, they are easier to deal with. Keeping Bolt in the back can keep a lot of potential threats at bay. Now I'm not saying we should keep Bolt because broken checks broken or anything. Like Moon should just flat be banned regardless. However, there are a lot of threats that Thunderclap is just plain nice insurance for. I would argue that this destresses the teambuilder more than Bolt itself stresses the teambuilder.
Agree on the roaring moon claim, disagree with the gouging fire take but I can see where you are coming from. The take that I disagree with the most heavily is raging bolt.
You underestimate how bulky it is, as tusk's e-quake only has a 6.3% chance to ohko it. One of gambit's greatest weaknesses is that it has a 4x weakness. Sure, that means it is incredibly weakened, but koing tusk is massive for the team. Also, it is not a tera hog as you can tera into a type which it's weaknesses are scared by thunderclap. You would also bring out bolt endgame when other things do not want to tera, thus alleviating the issue. Thunderclap in itself is big for bolt as it can take the hits from mons that are resistant to electric and ko them.
I think in terms of banability, bolt and gambit are on the same level. Gambit has more raw power, while bolt is better defensively.
Here is a shortlist of the premium performance tier, ie Pokémon’s that are an order of magnitude better than what’s in the tier underneath them.
the specific word is “performance” here, not “utility”. The viability rankings has to judge for utility as well as performance. That’s why great tusk and gholdengo might often be seen in S tier even tho they don’t perform on the level of Archie boy et. all
Volcarona isn’t in the list because it can lose to so many 2 combo checks, such as a gouging fire + rilla boom, or sacrifices too much to get there, like needing a Tera dragon + Tera blast in the aforementioned scenario.
Gliscor isn’t in the list but might need to be, it’s pivot set, spikes set and fringe sets are all top class. But it tends to lose to itself and metal birds with hazards, and fails to do much against itself and regenerators with the pivot sets.
what’s the next best performer after the ones at the very top… whatever it is isn’t quite on their level at just hacking apart teams of almost all types.
the specific word is “performance” here, not “utility”. The viability rankings has to judge for utility as well as performance. That’s why great tusk and gholdengo might often be seen in S tier even tho they don’t perform on the level of Archie boy et. all
one DD position away from getting at least 1-2 KOs
three sets that can pull heavy weight, guessing wrong often means 1-2 KOs, dealing with the sets is constrained
one freeze away from pulling down at least 1-2 in most matchups.
just overall very good, difficult to deal with as OHKOing it is hard as it is, with a Tera you often get favorable trades
it’s still stupid, you need lots of end game counterplay techniques for the privilege of having a chance to beat it
mostly reactionary sets right now, because of the dominant play-setters above and still needing to check more fringe things
Volcarona isn’t in the list because it can lose to so many 2 combo checks, such as a gouging fire + rilla boom, or sacrifices too much to get there, like needing a Tera dragon + Tera blast in the aforementioned scenario.
Gliscor isn’t in the list but might need to be, it’s pivot set, spikes set and fringe sets are all top class. But it tends to lose to itself and metal birds with hazards, and fails to do much against itself and regenerators with the pivot sets.
what’s the next best performer after the ones at the very top… whatever it is isn’t quite on their level at just hacking apart teams of almost all types.
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Oh wait Rmoon mention time to lock in.
Actually, I already hate moon enough let me move onto bolt, uhh yeah a while back I was silently watching a OU room discussion where it was bolt vs gambit, who's better overall. The main point that seemed to stick with me was "gambit offers actual defensive utility while being an annoying late game sweeper, bolt doesn't." Now originally I didn't really think much of it but as the convo went on people started talking about how gambit should be banned and bolt shouldn't. Now at that point I was kinda wondering "what's the logic behind this lol?". It got me wondering so I scrolled down and realized... Bolt doesn't really do much for the tier else from be a annoying reverse sweeper. Dark/steel is a fantastic typing pairing defensively, shown by pawniard in LC, bisharp in past gens and gambit this gen (dark resist, poison immune, GHOST RESIST, dragon resist, rock resists, steel resist, flying resist, stored power immunity, etc...) meanwhile dragon/electric gives you... A quad electric Resistance (we beating eleki with this one), grass resist (screw waterpon- oh it has PR), water resist (screw wake- oh it has dragon stab.) Fire resist (You know the drill.) Steel resist (Ok??? Like WHO???) And uh... Flying. So now looking at most of the tier's mons who have those offensives typings, bolt doesn't really stop them stop them all that well cause they either A: have coverage to kill it naturally (knock, quake, fairy, dragon stab, hyperpowered sun moves) or B: Bullshit tera.
Where am I going to with all this yapping? Bolt doesn't defensively do nearly as much to justify it's presence, meanwhile offensively it's a terror to deal with since it hits so hard for no reason. A few very good mons get screwed over sideways cause of it as well. Gambit has to deal with burn, ting, tusk, dozo, ival, Rona, corv, skarm, etc... Bolt has... Clodsire, blissey and ting.
I wouldn't mind seeing a bolt ban, may make actual arguments for a ban later I'm dead rn tho.
Actually, I already hate moon enough let me move onto bolt, uhh yeah a while back I was silently watching a OU room discussion where it was bolt vs gambit, who's better overall. The main point that seemed to stick with me was "gambit offers actual defensive utility while being an annoying late game sweeper, bolt doesn't." Now originally I didn't really think much of it but as the convo went on people started talking about how gambit should be banned and bolt shouldn't. Now at that point I was kinda wondering "what's the logic behind this lol?". It got me wondering so I scrolled down and realized... Bolt doesn't really do much for the tier else from be a annoying reverse sweeper. Dark/steel is a fantastic typing pairing defensively, shown by pawniard in LC, bisharp in past gens and gambit this gen (dark resist, poison immune, GHOST RESIST, dragon resist, rock resists, steel resist, flying resist, stored power immunity, etc...) meanwhile dragon/electric gives you... A quad electric Resistance (we beating eleki with this one), grass resist (screw waterpon- oh it has PR), water resist (screw wake- oh it has dragon stab.) Fire resist (You know the drill.) Steel resist (Ok??? Like WHO???) And uh... Flying. So now looking at most of the tier's mons who have those offensives typings, bolt doesn't really stop them stop them all that well cause they either A: have coverage to kill it naturally (knock, quake, fairy, dragon stab, hyperpowered sun moves) or B: Bullshit tera.
Where am I going to with all this yapping? Bolt doesn't defensively do nearly as much to justify it's presence, meanwhile offensively it's a terror to deal with since it hits so hard for no reason. A few very good mons get screwed over sideways cause of it as well. Gambit has to deal with burn, ting, tusk, dozo, ival, Rona, corv, skarm, etc... Bolt has... Clodsire, blissey and ting.
I wouldn't mind seeing a bolt ban, may make actual arguments for a ban later I'm dead rn tho.
Banning pokemon for not bringing enough defensive utility to the tier sounds like a weird argument. Raging Bolt is a banworthy power level, but if it was even stronger with extra defences then it wouldn't be banworthy?
Bolt defensively has some useful applications, namely wiping Zapdos off the map & making Manaphy less common. It is also one of few Waterpon checks in the tier & offers additional priority, all useful traits.
That being said, Arch provided most of the above and more while offering rocks Utility, checking Gambit / Moon, punishing multi-hitters, etc. yet we still banned it. Sure it was busted in rain, but Raging Bolt is equally broken in rain and significantly more broken outside of it. This mon has Kyurem level bulk on top of a better typing, CM, Booster Energy, priority, all the works. In general, you are forced to run Ting-Lu / Clodsire / Treads on every team in order to not get owned by this guy, but that doesn't even work because Raging Bolt can run Weather ball and beat them anyways.
This mon's one flaw is that it has 4MSS, as it cannot run all of Thunderbolt / Dragon Pulse / Weather Ball / Calm Mind and Thunderclap on the same set, so it will struggle in specific MUs vs stuff like Primarina, Iron Treads, etc. depending on what it runs.
This Pokemon might be more managable in a Tera-less environment since part of what makes it OP is that Tusk / Lando-T can't easily revenge kill it, but like, even then, it basically still has no defensive checks. Get Great Neck outta here!
That being said, Arch provided most of the above and more while offering rocks Utility, checking Gambit / Moon, punishing multi-hitters, etc. yet we still banned it. Sure it was busted in rain, but Raging Bolt is equally broken in rain and significantly more broken outside of it. This mon has Kyurem level bulk on top of a better typing, CM, Booster Energy, priority, all the works. In general, you are forced to run Ting-Lu / Clodsire / Treads on every team in order to not get owned by this guy, but that doesn't even work because Raging Bolt can run Weather ball and beat them anyways.
This mon's one flaw is that it has 4MSS, as it cannot run all of Thunderbolt / Dragon Pulse / Weather Ball / Calm Mind and Thunderclap on the same set, so it will struggle in specific MUs vs stuff like Primarina, Iron Treads, etc. depending on what it runs.
This Pokemon might be more managable in a Tera-less environment since part of what makes it OP is that Tusk / Lando-T can't easily revenge kill it, but like, even then, it basically still has no defensive checks. Get Great Neck outta here!
In my opinion, Gouging Fire is the most overpowered Pokemon in OU right now. Then Roaring Moon. Everyone talks about the sun sets that OHKO everything, but the Breaking Swipe set is also insane. Being able to 1v1 your "checks" (
) and even "counters" (
) is unreal. I feel that Rain teams won't die down that much due to Arch getting banned just to keep Gouging Fire in check. The EQ/Flare Blitz set having a different list of checks than the Breaking Swipe set is just crazy
) and even "counters" () is unreal. I feel that Rain teams won't die down that much due to Arch getting banned just to keep Gouging Fire in check. The EQ/Flare Blitz set having a different list of checks than the Breaking Swipe set is just crazyMy impression was that you had defensive ground types like Clodsire and Ting-Lu that could switch into it defensively and the faster ground types like Lando-T, Great Tusk, Iron Treads, and Excadrill that could threaten it out. I'm not sure about Gliscor, which tends to have low special defense while bring faster. Then again, I kinda like that Gliscor is pressured by it.
Anyways, I admit that I don't know all the calcs I probably need to here. When I run Tusk, I tend to run more offensive sets with Headlong Rush. I haven't run a defensive EQ set since before the first DLC. It's possible that I overestimate the effect of faster ground types, but I really don't think I am that much.
Well if you Tera Bolt to avoid the KO or at least heavy damage from the faster ground type, that means that other mons can't do it. And if you are waiting until end game to do that, this means you didn't use Tera anywhere else. That possibly puts you at a disadvantage for most of the game before you even get to the end. All this makes it a Tera hog, no? In order to get past most of the counterplay, it usually has to rely on Tera.
This is an interesting point that was completely opposite the point below it. Not to take you out of context as I realize you were more talking in general and yomaalt was more talking about typing. However, the typing argument seems to favor Gambit besides the 4x weakness that Tera counters.
This begs the question just where do people think Raging Bolt lies defensively? Personally, I feel like it has good natural bulk but is balanced in this respect.
Ok, so one person suggests that Bolt is better than Kingambit defensively and the next person says that Raging Bolt doesn't really do much defensively. Again, I realize this argument was more about the typing. Yet in this same argument, there is a decent case made for Kingambit's defensive typing being far more useful for many of the pokemon we deal with. Right after Heatranator said that Bolt was better defensively than Gambit.
The reason why I am harping on this so hard is because I really want to know what people in the tier think about this. Do we even have a rough consensus on exactly how good Raging Bolt is defensively?
I still think Moon is the most pressing issue in the tier currently, but I would not complain about a Raging Bolt or Gouging Fire suspect. I just hope it is Moon first, because this thing can be extremely difficult to respond to with it's Taunt sets, while on Sun teams it can be extremely hard to wall and revenge kill. Beyond that, all it really needs is one turn to set up a DD and it can run away with one or two kills or even the game very easily.
I don't think this is particularly true--most Bolt sets I've seen are simply Tbolt / Draco or Pulse / Thunderclap / Calm Mind. Weather Ball will only ever be used on weather teams, where you could argue that is where the 4MSS shows up, but you could very easily drop Calm Mind since your weather turns are limited anyways, or something like your Dragon move if you don't want to deal with Draco's penalty or Pulse's... okay-ness.
Im just repeating the kingambit argument from months ago, as a point used to argue to keep it was it's defensive profile checking ghosts, and offensive checking frail attackers such as moth.
As Magcargo stated, wipes zapdos usage (I actually really like that cause static is bullshit) and checks waterpon. Mag also mentions manaphy, but encore waterpon coming in on a cm/ID/take heart/scald is like the freest win known to man.
Albeit useful, I believe most of the remainder of Bolt's defensive use can be effectively covered by other mons in the metagame. This goes to say I made this exact argument with gambit months ago, where ting/clod/bliss could take the ghosts that gambit was usually tasked with handling. The problem with bolt is that it does so much worse at handling most of the mons that it typically should be able to use it's typing to resist and come into, ex:. waterpon. Waterpon can just PR to ohko, or +2 knock to do massive damage, or avoid the tclap and encore it. Other grass/fire/water mons each have their own ways of winning/avoiding the 1v1, (meow has axel, tclap will go against the grass/dark meow, being resisted, mola flip tuens immediately or just swap tf out, prim has a very powerful mblast and paired with AV stupid special bulk, gouging has dragon stab, wake has dragon stab, serp... Is serp. Etc...) and all have much more reliable mons to keep them in check as well (skarm, glowking, dozo, tusk, etc...).
TL:DR: Gambit has a better defensive profile, then bolt, but can also be replaced. Bolt does pretty bad against most of the things it should be able to swap into as they almost all naturally have coverage to put bolt into a hard place, and unlike gambit, without a forced movepool addition.
I would say that bolt is better defensively as it is weak to ground, ice, fairy and dragon, whereas gambit is weak to ground, fire and 4x to fighting. While gambit does have fewer weaknesses, that 4x weakness really holds it back. Even just tera'ing dark can be good defensively since you now can take a fighting move. I think what yomaalt is talking about is their offensive defensive utility i.e. what can they offensively check. In that scenario, gambit is better. But in terms of taking hits, I believe bolt is better because while it has more weaknesses, it doesn't have an exploitable 4x weakness.
The thing about bolt is that it doesn't need to tera to be effective, it can still do amazingly without tera. If you can get rid of ground types, then it can be amazing. And what team style uses water types a lot? Rain teams, which bolt fits perfectly on. Besides that, it can then use thunderclap to ko revenge killers. It's exactly the same as gambit's gameplay, tera to take a hit and ko the mon walling it, then use priority to ko the rest of the team.
Edit: Looked at bolt's weaknesses, and tera bug or ice is kinda good. I'm sure that there are better typings, but tera bug allows you to resist ground moves while removing all your current weaknesses, and tera ice allows you to resist ice moves while removing current weaknesses. Helps that one of bug's weaknesses is flying, which electric is super effective against.
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Ha! Ha! Ha!
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 199-235 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No.
I think I would rather deal with five archaludons on the same team than deal with urshifu ever again. SD+auto crit+going through protect, yeah, keep that the hell away from me.
+2 252+ Atk Mystic Water Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo in Rain on a critical hit: 162-192 (32.1 - 38%) -- approx. 95.4% chance to 3HKO
Hell nah. Don't even get me started on single strike.
Probably would have been better additions to the meta than, like, moon, but we've already got mons that do the same job the shifu bros do. Keldeo and Waterpon do a similar offensive stuff as Rapid Strike Shifu while having fairly similar defensive util (at least in Keldeo's case). Nothing really does was Dark shifu does defensively, but we've got like, 7 OP dark types already. Both are probably better off staying in ubers for now.
With Arch getting the ban hammer by a wide margin, we just gotta accept that our Gambit checks are just OP (Dozo / Tusk sus when btw).
Use registeel, kinda goated in the tier as it can take on many threats with Id+bp+amnesia+shadow claw.
Maybe that will be the next ban, to remove gambit competition.
I'd like to challenge the idea that Raging Bolt and Kingambit are identical in offensive potency. There are a few key differences that come to mind:
1) With Weather Ball and rain support, Raging Bolt can break through almost all of its defensive checks, including Unaware Clod, Ting Lu, and Iron Treads. Gambit, on the other hand, can be reliably checked by Skarmory and Dondozo.
2) Gambit can be exploited by Will-o-Wisp, which is increasingly common on many picks like Dragapult, Heatran, and even Dirge. Raging Bolt cannot be neutered by this.
For these reasons, I feel that Bolt is a different beast than Gambit and in some cases is even more offensively threatening.
There's also the argument that Proto can only be activated once on a non-Sun team. But a competent Bolt player is not going to be switching their Bolt willy-nilly but instead will leverage Bolt at a point where it can either force massive progress or outright win the game. Reliance on one-time proto effectively decreases Bolt's defensive value in the meta and increases its use as an overbearing breaker/wincon.
1) With Weather Ball and rain support, Raging Bolt can break through almost all of its defensive checks, including Unaware Clod, Ting Lu, and Iron Treads. Gambit, on the other hand, can be reliably checked by Skarmory and Dondozo.
2) Gambit can be exploited by Will-o-Wisp, which is increasingly common on many picks like Dragapult, Heatran, and even Dirge. Raging Bolt cannot be neutered by this.
For these reasons, I feel that Bolt is a different beast than Gambit and in some cases is even more offensively threatening.
There's also the argument that Proto can only be activated once on a non-Sun team. But a competent Bolt player is not going to be switching their Bolt willy-nilly but instead will leverage Bolt at a point where it can either force massive progress or outright win the game. Reliance on one-time proto effectively decreases Bolt's defensive value in the meta and increases its use as an overbearing breaker/wincon.
another big one is that things are immune to electric. nothing's immune to dark. that means there are a lot more available pokemon that can shut down a thunderclap 50/50 than a sucker punch one, and they can do it more easily because you don't have to worry about defenses or chip against thunderclap—a tusk at 100% hp doesn't fear sucker punch or thunderclap, while a tusk at 1% hp fears sucker immensely and has to actually play the 50/50 but is still just as confident against thunderclap
Yes, but the same amount of things are resistant to electric than dark. Dark resists are dark, fairy and fighting. Electric resists are ground (immunity), grass, electric and dragon. Let's firstly take out the electric immunity because the only electric type in OU is bolt, which I think using the same mon to counter itself isn't relevant. That leaves ground, grass and dragon.
That means we have three types that resist both coverage moves, though gambit has a slight edge with no immunity.
If we take the averages of each type by using the HP plus the respective defense stat of these mons (rounded), we get:
Fighting: HP 94 Defense 112 (should be slightly higher due to zama's dauntless shield sometimes)
Fairy: HP 76 Defense 80
Dark: HP 95 Defense 89
Total average: HP 88 Defense 94
Ground: Lmao, taking no damage usually, but for draco damage HP 109 Sp.Defense 76 (Counting vessel of ruin from ting-lu by multiplying it's sp.Defense by 1.25)
Grass: HP 83 Sp.Defense 83
Dragon: HP 105 Sp.Defense 90
Total average: HP 99 Sp.Defense 83
Now, what does this mean, probably nothing, but we see that both resists have the same bulk because if you plus the defense and hp together, then divide by two, you get 91. Most teams would have two of these types, so it isn't the most accurate, but I thought this was interesting.
I think for this reason HO tends to handle Bolt a bit easier than Gambit. Whereas a well-made balance team can handle Gambit but gets demolished by Weather Ball Bolt.
HO doesn't mind sacrificing a mon and revenge-killing Bolt, which is easier because ground types are immune to thunderclap. On the other hand, balance functions as a cohesive unit and struggles when Bolt always claims at least one kill. And Bolt has more opportunities to set up or force a switch against balance compared to HO.
On the other hand, balance can afford to slot on a dedicated defensive Gambit check like Dozo/ID Skarm, which is absent on HO.
All this reinforces how Bolt and Gambit have fundamental differences in their offensive presence.