NOC Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Mafia - Explorers - Game Thread (Game Over!)

Let me put it this way. As scum, celever showed a poised and measured game, and had great thread positioning. Here he seems much more jumpy and erratic and most people sr'ing him appears to be for that. Is this celever who is flailing and practically in the open due to the relatively higher power level of the town this game (def possible) or is this celever town with just a bad thread presence because he doesn't care. JALMONT how would you compare tommy and celever's meta as both alignments?

One thing that is irking me is the erratic behavior seems more and more performative. For instance, that wallpost should not have been enough to assuage his paranoia of my slot if he had paranoia.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...hread-mafia-wins.3722193/page-94#post-9646688

This is the game I think about since Thomas can’t play too many smogon games as head mod. He was mafia and celever was town.

I KNOW celever can town read me as town so his arguments being bizarre and opposite majority opinion don’t hold as much weight for his towniness. I think you have a good thought re: performative erratic behavior. I’m on mobile so can’t really but I think it would be interesting to note when exactly he became more erratic and widely scumread. I absolutely believe there’s a point where scum!cele is like “yea I’m getting voted this game regardless so let’s position a vote on me to get the rest of the team looking good”
 
i think genisu is my first vote here, with a fairy or shane as backups and id consider alice but probably not there

i do think i want to vote with clouds regardless though
 
As a weak read, I don't think Alice is scum without one of me/Celever/Shane/Tommy scum per their read that there is one scum in that pile.
 
Towncore:Duskfall98,M2H,Jalmont, Clouds,bluedoom

My own townread of Shane is also off of D1, don't think he has really done anything D2 though.

I won't vote anyone in there; I think anyone not in this list has too many problems for me to townread them, and I also think the whole lhf stuff doesn't really work here because I think most of the playerlist has had a huge drop in quality of posts D2 so I think most lynches are going to feel like lhf lynches lol.

I will park my vote on af, I think HH should definitely be given a look at by people, and I really wish this Celever discussion had happened 24 hours ago and not when I'm about to sleep. Good night y'all
 
Alright I'm retiring the tiermaker for now because I think it's too simplistic a tool to share whatever views I have on the game at this point. To my knowledge the thread dynamics in D2 have revolved around three main events that are the most telling about different people's positions:
1. The early argument between Celever/Shane about the EoD1 Cel wagon, with AF and myself as third parties
2. The attempted massclaim mainly driven by the quartet of JALMONT/Laurel/Clouds/M2H trying to take control of the thread
3. The frustration and suspicion around lowposters like Alice/genisu/HyHy that has increasingly boiled over due to stagnation and uncertainty about what the prior two months events mean for the game.

In my opinion, in a 13-4 scumteam world (which seems to be the default idea here), there is at least one scum from a major party in all three of these events. Nothing that has happened during D2 is completely pure.

EVENT 1: Beartic vs. Breloom fetus
-My thoughts on Celever are well-known atp, I think he's town and the pushes on him are being pushed by opportunistic scummies who see LHF and froth at the mouth. He hasn't composed himself that well this game, but neither has Jalmont and he's using that as a core talking point to justify his towniness so I put zero stock in the "erratic thread behavior = cele scum" idea. (your time is coming soon you Crackhead Cobalion Cosplayer)
-Shane is more suspicious to me because of how he presented himself in the argument, sure, but what's happened with him since then is even more telling. Decreased thread presence and very few unique contributions besides TRing Alice after getting neighborized which is a point in his favor tbf (unless an Alice wagon gets going and she flips scum). I feel he's mostly been sheeping the bluedoom/JALMONT/Clouds triumvirate which is weird bc I don't think those three are all that connected anymore in the way Celever's been describing. I do think that he has a lot of scum equity spread around rn, but mainly I feel he has S/S with Alice, T/T with bluedoom, he can't be on the same team as Celever, and there are decent chances of connections to JALMONT and/or AF.
-AF is weird to talk about because she hasn't given us much since the argument either, but that's also kinda typical for her. Content has been a bit low-effort but the reads she has given feel genuine so I'm conflicted about voting her. If she flips town then I think it's safe to say one of Cel/Shane is scum (probably shane) but if she's scum then I just have no clue.

Event 2: The Coup d'Claim
-This one started with Laurel as soon as he gave Clouds a BPV, I highly doubt Clouds would be so bold as to assume his current position with his role if Laurel hadn't enabled it. I'm highly suspicious of Laurel and I think he has S/S equity with Clouds, if there are two scum in this group it's probably them doing a crazy powerscum play. Regardless of alignment I'm tempted to flip Laurel because seeing his card info while dead is probably more useful to the solve than tolerating his current cagey behavior while alive. Expecting an inventor claim to townclear him is also preposterous and makes me even more sus. If there's a 3P I would think it's most likely Laurel
-Clouds is unreadable to me. Every read I have is based more on dynamics with other people than his own behavior, because his own behavior is so brazenly confident that I could expect it equally from a talkative PR townie and an experienced scummie. He becomes more suspicious if either JALMONT or Laurel flip scum, but especially Laurel. Cop claim is believable and Tommy makes sense as a target, but there's an outside chance that Clouds and Tommy are cooking something as scum so I wouldn't commit to believing the claim at face value.
-M2H was always gonna be at the front of a mess like this, I think it's most likely that he's being strung along by a scum elsewhere in this group; they gave a hungry dog a bone, and the dog demanded a massclaim afterward. Town equity with Clouds in particular
-JALMONT is a bastard and I hope he burns in hell. Vig claim is fake. No way he's on the same team as Laurel, Clouds partnership is unlikely but possible. He is solely responsible for N1 events still being so hazy and I almost want to vote him for that reason alone, but I know there's no support for it besides Laurel who could have his own motives. The changes to his meta are almost certainly scum-motivated, he keeps calling out bad ideas without suggesting better ones; which is to say, he insists that we're wrong about his behavior benefiting scum!jal but gives no convincing reason why it benefits town!jal imo.
-Bluedoom is interesting, I think neighborizer is towny. His decision to frequently go after lowposters is something I disagree with but understand. The only world I see him being scum at this point is if Shane flips town because they've mindmelded a lot to a point thay I think would be too obvious for scumbuddies.

Event 3: The Boredom-induced Witch Hunt
-Joey is mixed. His wagon is a placeholder for better leads due to how he plays. Role claim is weird but I don't think M2H has sufficiently disproven it. Likely T/S equity with M2H, Laurel interactions read to me as two confused townies shoutifn at each other, but I also think Joey is cleared town if Laurel flips scum.
-Genisu's play has been a comedy of errors, and that should say something coming from somebody as comparatively (to the wider thread) dumb as me. I think he's scum because JOAT claim is suspicious, holstering N1 is even more suspicious, pushing to be towncleared by his claim reads to me as inexperienced scum assuming a safeclaim is more valuable than it actually is. We also shouldn't forget that the D1 wagon on him was confirmed pure, and it would still have been pure if I stayed on it. I'm sick of him, I think he contributes nothing to town since I sus his claim, and I would support a wagon on him more than most.
-You're a certifiable idiot if you want Alice voted out. She is acting how I'd expect her to as town and I think the attraction to voting her is indicative of an inherent bias that experienced players have towards sussing lowposters by default. Voting Shane is a better way to solve her slot anyway bc I feel they have strong town equity from the neighborizing.
-I townread Tommy. I will be more suspicious of him if Clouds or genisu flips scum. That is all.
-Neon is not a productive discussion topic at present, I don't care to speculate about whether backup actually soft-confirms him as town.

I am still not placing my vote yet because I have too many overlapping/conflicting suspicions about people to commit to one narrative about how the game is being influenced by scum atp. I trust almost no one. My towncore is empty because all of my townreads/leans come with asterisks.
 
GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I FORGOT ABOUT HYHY

Not a strong SR from me (I think most points against him are better applied to genisu) but if enough people think he could be scum I'd be willing to hop on that wagon if the alternative was something like Celever or Alice. A doublevote is too powerful to let past D3 or so if there's any doubt about his alignment
 
Alright I'm retiring the tiermaker for now because I think it's too simplistic a tool to share whatever views I have on the game at this point. To my knowledge the thread dynamics in D2 have revolved around three main events that are the most telling about different people's positions:
1. The early argument between Celever/Shane about the EoD1 Cel wagon, with AF and myself as third parties
2. The attempted massclaim mainly driven by the quartet of JALMONT/Laurel/Clouds/M2H trying to take control of the thread
3. The frustration and suspicion around lowposters like Alice/genisu/HyHy that has increasingly boiled over due to stagnation and uncertainty about what the prior two months events mean for the game.

In my opinion, in a 13-4 scumteam world (which seems to be the default idea here), there is at least one scum from a major party in all three of these events. Nothing that has happened during D2 is completely pure.

EVENT 1: Beartic vs. Breloom fetus
-My thoughts on Celever are well-known atp, I think he's town and the pushes on him are being pushed by opportunistic scummies who see LHF and froth at the mouth. He hasn't composed himself that well this game, but neither has Jalmont and he's using that as a core talking point to justify his towniness so I put zero stock in the "erratic thread behavior = cele scum" idea. (your time is coming soon you Crackhead Cobalion Cosplayer)
-Shane is more suspicious to me because of how he presented himself in the argument, sure, but what's happened with him since then is even more telling. Decreased thread presence and very few unique contributions besides TRing Alice after getting neighborized which is a point in his favor tbf (unless an Alice wagon gets going and she flips scum). I feel he's mostly been sheeping the bluedoom/JALMONT/Clouds triumvirate which is weird bc I don't think those three are all that connected anymore in the way Celever's been describing. I do think that he has a lot of scum equity spread around rn, but mainly I feel he has S/S with Alice, T/T with bluedoom, he can't be on the same team as Celever, and there are decent chances of connections to JALMONT and/or AF.
-AF is weird to talk about because she hasn't given us much since the argument either, but that's also kinda typical for her. Content has been a bit low-effort but the reads she has given feel genuine so I'm conflicted about voting her. If she flips town then I think it's safe to say one of Cel/Shane is scum (probably shane) but if she's scum then I just have no clue.

Event 2: The Coup d'Claim
-This one started with Laurel as soon as he gave Clouds a BPV, I highly doubt Clouds would be so bold as to assume his current position with his role if Laurel hadn't enabled it. I'm highly suspicious of Laurel and I think he has S/S equity with Clouds, if there are two scum in this group it's probably them doing a crazy powerscum play. Regardless of alignment I'm tempted to flip Laurel because seeing his card info while dead is probably more useful to the solve than tolerating his current cagey behavior while alive. Expecting an inventor claim to townclear him is also preposterous and makes me even more sus. If there's a 3P I would think it's most likely Laurel
-Clouds is unreadable to me. Every read I have is based more on dynamics with other people than his own behavior, because his own behavior is so brazenly confident that I could expect it equally from a talkative PR townie and an experienced scummie. He becomes more suspicious if either JALMONT or Laurel flip scum, but especially Laurel. Cop claim is believable and Tommy makes sense as a target, but there's an outside chance that Clouds and Tommy are cooking something as scum so I wouldn't commit to believing the claim at face value.
-M2H was always gonna be at the front of a mess like this, I think it's most likely that he's being strung along by a scum elsewhere in this group; they gave a hungry dog a bone, and the dog demanded a massclaim afterward. Town equity with Clouds in particular
-JALMONT is a bastard and I hope he burns in hell. Vig claim is fake. No way he's on the same team as Laurel, Clouds partnership is unlikely but possible. He is solely responsible for N1 events still being so hazy and I almost want to vote him for that reason alone, but I know there's no support for it besides Laurel who could have his own motives. The changes to his meta are almost certainly scum-motivated, he keeps calling out bad ideas without suggesting better ones; which is to say, he insists that we're wrong about his behavior benefiting scum!jal but gives no convincing reason why it benefits town!jal imo.
-Bluedoom is interesting, I think neighborizer is towny. His decision to frequently go after lowposters is something I disagree with but understand. The only world I see him being scum at this point is if Shane flips town because they've mindmelded a lot to a point thay I think would be too obvious for scumbuddies.

Event 3: The Boredom-induced Witch Hunt
-Joey is mixed. His wagon is a placeholder for better leads due to how he plays. Role claim is weird but I don't think M2H has sufficiently disproven it. Likely T/S equity with M2H, Laurel interactions read to me as two confused townies shoutifn at each other, but I also think Joey is cleared town if Laurel flips scum.
-Genisu's play has been a comedy of errors, and that should say something coming from somebody as comparatively (to the wider thread) dumb as me. I think he's scum because JOAT claim is suspicious, holstering N1 is even more suspicious, pushing to be towncleared by his claim reads to me as inexperienced scum assuming a safeclaim is more valuable than it actually is. We also shouldn't forget that the D1 wagon on him was confirmed pure, and it would still have been pure if I stayed on it. I'm sick of him, I think he contributes nothing to town since I sus his claim, and I would support a wagon on him more than most.
-You're a certifiable idiot if you want Alice voted out. She is acting how I'd expect her to as town and I think the attraction to voting her is indicative of an inherent bias that experienced players have towards sussing lowposters by default. Voting Shane is a better way to solve her slot anyway bc I feel they have strong town equity from the neighborizing.
-I townread Tommy. I will be more suspicious of him if Clouds or genisu flips scum. That is all.
-Neon is not a productive discussion topic at present, I don't care to speculate about whether backup actually soft-confirms him as town.

I am still not placing my vote yet because I have too many overlapping/conflicting suspicions about people to commit to one narrative about how the game is being influenced by scum atp. I trust almost no one. My towncore is empty because all of my townreads/leans come with asterisks.
Why don’t you claim? How does not claiming benefitting town you?

now think about how me acting “erratically” might benefit me

I still haven’t heard from anyone why I wouldn’t just lie about a n1 result when that would preclude this entire conversation
 
Why don’t you claim? How does not claiming benefitting town you?

now think about how me acting “erratically” might benefit me

I still haven’t heard from anyone why I wouldn’t just lie about a n1 result when that would preclude this entire conversation

On the converse: why would you not just go ahead and claim the results? If you shot skipper we can look at joey again because tbh my roleblock could have definitely blocked his nk while allowing the day action to go through. Not a super hard case but its something to consider and that I would appreciate an explicit answer on. If you got blocked, then we probably need to flip genisu here unless we believe there is a third roleblocker in the game (unlikely), and finally, if you holstered your shot, at the very least we will know that joey could not have carried the mafia kill last night. I think yes there isn't a super hard reason why you must claim it, but it would be useful info to have and that will be lost if you get NK'd.
 
Why don’t you claim? How does not claiming benefitting town you?
I have no clue. I just don't trust the voices telling me to claim enough.
now think about how me acting “erratically” might benefit me
It benefits you because you get to continually ask us, in our confusion, "how does this benefit me" while smugly doubling down on the behavior. It's an endless loop that I don't care to interact with because it intentionally obstructs progress
I still haven’t heard from anyone why I wouldn’t just lie about a n1 result when that would preclude this entire conversation
And I still haven't heard from anyone why your current approach doesn't constitute lying.
 
Some of this argumentation is irritating (I wasn’t the only player in both this game and last game, and others have commented in-thread on how different your play is between the two games, so no switching up your meta would just be to fool specifically me) but the post generally makes sense.

The theory I was operating under was that your safeclaim is scummy enough that you didn’t feel confident that it would flip all the votes off of you. Safeclaims are safe relative to the other roles in the game, and you couldn’t know how well that town claims also looked like safeclaims (your material to base that on were Neon and pulsar’s roles if Neon is town, which are a mixed bag in terms looking towny). You could have made a quick cost-benefit and said “if I claim my safe it’s prob not enough to keep me around so I’ll just YOLO vig and worst case scenario I get CCed and we can shoot the vig tonight”. Posts leading up to your claim even made it clear that they’d only be interested in jumping off your wagon if you had a really good role. It’s still a valid interpretation of events, even if your hypotheticals are also valid.

Being obtuse doesn’t really benefit anyone if you’re town, but does benefit self-pres which is scum-sided to prioritise, and the same goes for holstering on N1 with the position you were in.
So why wouldn’t I just say I idled or say I shot so and so or say I was roleblocked?

remember if I’m mafia fake claiming then I have to assume there’s an above average probability my claim will be CC’d to open today. Why would I not just make up a result to force a CC or at least take the pressure off me. It’s totally overthinking things to believe being “erratic” is more believable than making literally any kind of result up

If you are so concerned about me being “obtuse” then you should claim or vote Laurel for partial claiming as well. The hypocritical nature of everyone complaining about me when those same people haven’t claimed is pretty ??? for me
 
So why wouldn’t I just say I idled or say I shot so and so or say I was roleblocked?

remember if I’m mafia fake claiming then I have to assume there’s an above average probability my claim will be CC’d to open today. Why would I not just make up a result to force a CC or at least take the pressure off me. It’s totally overthinking things to believe being “erratic” is more believable than making literally any kind of result up

If you are so concerned about me being “obtuse” then you should claim or vote Laurel for partial claiming as well. The hypocritical nature of everyone complaining about me when those same people haven’t claimed is pretty ??? for me

Pretty sure ud be mad at me if i full claimed so pls dont throw me under the bus like that :((
 
On the converse: why would you not just go ahead and claim the results? If you shot skipper we can look at joey again because tbh my roleblock could have definitely blocked his nk while allowing the day action to go through. Not a super hard case but its something to consider and that I would appreciate an explicit answer on. If you got blocked, then we probably need to flip genisu here unless we believe there is a third roleblocker in the game (unlikely), and finally, if you holstered your shot, at the very least we will know that joey could not have carried the mafia kill last night. I think yes there isn't a super hard reason why you must claim it, but it would be useful info to have and that will be lost if you get NK'd.
I promise you I have thought about all these things and come to the conclusion that it isn’t very important. If it was at all relevant or I thought it would help the town I would share it. Alternatively you can wagon me and i will share :)
I have no clue. I just don't trust the voices telling me to claim enough.

It benefits you because you get to continually ask us, in our confusion, "how does this benefit me" while smugly doubling down on the behavior. It's an endless loop that I don't care to interact with because it intentionally obstructs progress

And I still haven't heard from anyone why your current approach doesn't constitute lying.
This is such a lazy line of thinking literally any kind of behavior can be scumread by saying “ACTUALLY THIS IS JUST AN ENDLESS LOOP BECAUSE YOU DID SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE EXPECTED YOU NOT TO DO THEREFORE YOU COULD BE MAFIA BECAUSE YOU PREDICTED EVERYONE WOULD THINK YOU WOULD DO THE EXPECTED”

it’s just not very good thinking and analysis. If you think I am mafia, then you should be able to construct a narrative why I played today the way I did and ask yourself if that narrative makes sense. The narrative does not make sense

What progress am i obstructing? By that logic everyone who hasn’t claimed is obstructing progress? Why am I getting singled out? To your credit you scumread the entire game but why do you townread Alice and dusk? They haven’t claimed
 
a fairy -
i am town

Alice Kazumi -
I can see her being in a fair amount of scumteams. The primary reason to clear her would be Shane's vouch, and that's fair. One of the less active slots, I feel like she hasn't moved anywhere in my head from "inactive (positive vibes)" from my original thoughts. But given that things are further developing, a lack of development in my read of her makes me think that that's intentional, as if she's hoping to just under the radar this game.

bluedoom -
I've not gotten worrying vibes from bluedoom, they've been a part of the debate club and have been pretty good at being just fine, their participation feels more solve-oriented and I don't get the sense that they have more information than they give off. I'd be surprised if they were mafia. That being said, they're probably the person in debate club that I've paid the least attention to, so I wouldn't rank my confidence of this read to be very high.

Celever -
Scum Celever likes to reimagine reality during arguments to try and pull the rug out from under the person taking him to task, and he's been doing that this game. I think Cel is scum! I know he doesn't think he plays differently between scum and town, and I know that my record of reading him has taken a dip since I got confident a few games back. That being said, his argument with Shane reminds me very much of Lover's Dance with me, which is where my read theory developed.

Duskfall98 -
If you believe the investigator, Tommy is a cleared slot. I believe it currently.

genisu -
I wouldn't be surpised if genisu was scum, but if I had to guess - he's town. His new player-style "give me a night to clear me" screams townie to me, and while I know he's played more than one or two games at this point he really does still strike me as a new player that's struggling to figure out how to play the game. He definitely could be a scum swiss army knife that is masquerading as his safeclaim JOAT, but I don't think he is. Flipping this slot feels like it gives us very little information.

HydrogenHydreigon -
I've gone from thinking HH is strong townie to being awfully suspicious about this slot. Sure, maybe he's flat mayor, but as other slots get developed and HH retains his prior behavior, it becomes easier and easier to see him slot into a scumteam with an active folk or two who are avoiding giving their psuedo-inactive teammate too much attention. I know HH's timezone is quite distant from the average active time for this thread, which doesn't help him, but I feel like I've not seen much of HH's standard read-through attempts to advance the gamestate.

ImaginaryNeon -
I know Neon has stated real world reasons for his change in behavior, for why they're 100+ pages behind in sheeting. I am inclined to believe them. I'm also inclined to think they're a decently likely member of the scum team. It feels like they didn't really make any progress after they claimed they were back in a more functional state, and their jumping between filling the thread up with standard behavior and complaining about wishywashy reads doesn't make sense to me compared to their trying to catch up efforts.

JALMONT -
I wouldn't be surprised if Jal was scum, but I'd expect him to be town. I still don't get his D1 vote hopping and distance from the thread, nor do I understand why he hasn't addressed that afaict. Like, he's probably town, but I definitely don't want to just work on that assumption and let him towncore as mafia. I think his reactions to stances like mine who are suspicious of him are in character for him, and I don't really share Cel's theory that EOD1 was a scum scrambling.

joey and Clouds -
I'm gonna write one thing for both joey and Clouds, because I struggle to differentiate their slots and genuinely cannot remember which one of them was tied up with Laurel and which one of them has seemingly done nothing. The un-CC'd cop is probably fine, idrt the BPV changes any of that math given that it was Laurel giving a friend a thing. The other slot hasn't really done anything, though, right? Doesn't feel that great to me, ala what I thought about Alice.

Laurel -
Feels like town Laurel who is stunned at why people aren't townreading him/trusting him. His role is kinda irrelevant to the case IMO, I do genuinely think that his astonishment at people's reactions to him post-claim in combination with his early D1 makes me feel fairly confident that he's town. He's probably one of my more confident townreads, even discarding his role arguments. I know the "town laurel isn't invested" meta was shattered almost as soon as it was put forward, but I mean... This Laurel isn't particularly invested.

M2H -
If M2H is scum I think town might be doomed, it's going to be so difficult for M2H to be dislodged especially as more and more of the people who seem fine with vocally FoSing M2H are finding themselves being seen as scum somewhat widely across the board. If Cel isn't scum it might be worth sounding an alarm or two for the people who are TRing M2H. Like, I'm suspicious of M2H and am being voted here, and Cel seems to be the primary other wagon.

Shane the Shroomish -
Fate intrinsically tied to Cel. If Cel's town, you're probably scum. I don't know you well enough to know your playstyle, but I think during that argument you were a town frustrated with Cel who didn't seem to be making any sense. I still hold my opinions about how that argument went poorly for you from a perspective of trying to defang Cel's oligarchy theory. But I think this is never SvS, and I think Cel was the S. Not that I'm excluding the TvT possibility.

StupidFlandrs48 -
You seem fine? I wouldn't be surprised if you were scum, your solviness reads good and positive town, but I don't know you well enough to know how much of it is a game. You strike me as more experienced than you seem to be with your stated experience, but that's not a sign of scumminess or anything. I feel like I don't think about you, and when I do think about you, it's generally a positive "yeah those are fair points" kinda way. Similar to bluedoom but I feel like I've actually paid attention to you.
 
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Political alignment tier list
These are most certainly words...
What they're actually supposed to mean in this context, who knows?
 
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