Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Violet Le Fey said:
Hello Everyone, i don't know if this is the best place to say this, and if this is the wrong place please tell me ( since it's my first time commenting here )

me ( who am a casual player who likes a lot the metagame and i try to understand and adapt the metas since gen 6 ) personally i think the real problems that needs to be adressed in the tier rn are:

- abuse of Booster Energy
- hazard stacking with Gholdengo ( who is not a problem for me since i use Mandibuzz with defog :P. )
- pokemons who for some reason are not banned and needs some tiering action ( Kingambit (which is a must rn) , Gourging fire , Deoxys-S , serperior and Enamorus )
- Terastalization

i think the council is doing a good job rn trying to balance the metagame, but these problems i mentioned are the things that is making the metagame being chaotic. ( at least is what i think =/ )

i want to see you guys opinion on this. :)
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Okay so for your points:
1. Booster Energy: Isn't really a problem as two booster mons would be Ubers even without it, while the only problematic mon with booster is Moon. Every other booster mon is either bad even with it or alright with it. Treads is alright, Boulder can be threatening but is also alright and valiant is a great mon for speed control, which is due to booster.
2. Hazard stack: Is a problem but can be dealt with later when other mons go. Hazard removal has been optimized quite a lot, and stuff like treads and tusk are super splashable. Can see why you think it is, but something that is on the back burner rn.
3. Kingambit: Yeah, it kinda is a problem but not high priority. Still doing the same shit now, but other mons are higher priority.
4. Gouging Fire: That one is being considered for a suspect, though I am adamant on whether it is a problem. So people will most likely agree with you on that.
5. Deoxys-S: Not a problem. Sure, it is fast, but it has lackluster bulk and power. If it wasn't speedy, it would be not good. It is a great lead, but the offensive sets are alright I guess? You give up so much utility to use them and you get medium reward.
6. Serperior: Great mon, but not banworthy. It's speed tier is great, but is still outsped by common mons. It can cheese its way through counters, but that relies on hax and that is simply not reliable. Tera blast sets are worse off than subseed+glare as they are almost always walled by something hard.
7. Enamorus: Not a problem somewhat and I could even see it dropping to UU. It is powerful, but it has to rely on stellar tera to boost up, which is very constricting. It's speed tier is great, but is still too slow for the tier rn.
8. Tera: Again, backburner problem. Didn't get too much support last survey, but we will see if it gets more support. Like ghold, it is something we look at after the more problematic mons go. (And to the people reading this, for the love of god, DO NOT TRY TO SAY "Oh, but tera has 25% who want action on it. I do not care, do not start that arguement, we know how it turned out last time.)

Overall, I'm happy that you think the council is doing a great job and are being nice about it, many more casuals have been rude about it and think they are 100% right. Disagree with most of your opinions, but you were nice about it so I don't have anything to complain about with them. :)
 
Since it was brought up, I would actually like to talk about D-Speed again because I do think it is low key problematic.

Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Superpower

This set right here outspeeds the entire unboosted meta with no EVs in speed. Only a + speed does this. Because of that, it can devote all the EVs into attack power. The power isn't that much, but it is enough to get many key KOs and crippling chip. Being mixed means it has less downside to the power drops from Psycho Boost and Superpower. Whatever the core is, be it balance or stall, almost all of them get picked apart by this. Tera Dark Knock Off is also just very free. A lot has been made of D-Speed's limited power. It has enough to tear nearly any core apart. It does it more as a technician that as a brute force mon, but you still can't safely switch into this thing with most of the tier.

According to my testing on various teams, a well played D-Speed with this set should net you way more than a 1 to 1 KO ratio average with this mon. It should be more like at least 2-3. Like 2-3 opposing pokemon that are at least given crippling chip and/or burning a Tera, if not outright KO'd, with at least one of those being an outright KO. Usually 2+ outright KOs. Every game against every type of team, from offense to balance to stall. This thing punches huge holes in almost any team you face. And if you fail after that, it's usually a team (be it the builder or just a unfavorable matchup) or a skill issue. This is because it's already so hard to hold back most of OU's big threats. This set turns opposing teams into leaky dams that cannot hold back all the water.

The only pokemon that can switch into this set are fairy type special defensive walls and steel types that don't lose to Knock Off or Superpower. I made a post about this before. I previously mentioned Primarina and Clefable, the ladder of which is conditional to being a special defensive set. There was one condition I neglected to mention, though, and that is Unaware sets are still in danger of being 2 shot by Psycho Boost because they ignore stat drops. So it has to be fully special defensive Magic Guard Clef or it isn't a safe switch in. However, I did neglect to mention Hatterene, who is a much better switch into this set. So Hatt works.

For steel types, it is primarily Corv and a little bit Skarm. But you can still lose like 70% on Corv in two turns from Ice Beam into Psycho Boost if you aren't careful. For Skarmory, that is more like 90% or so with a chance to 2 shot. if it has no special defense investment. So Corviknight is generally a safer bet. Archaludon was situational, but it was banned like predicted.

I already spoke about how Ting-Lu and Glowking are not really proper switches to this the last time I went on about this topic. However, I would like to add that Glowking often just straight up dies to Tera Dark Knock Off. Literal 1 shot.

This is a long way of saying that we have a total of like 3 OU mons (Prim/Hatt/Corv) that actually safely switch into just this D-Speed set, with two more (Clef/Skarm) being rather conditional. Most defensive cores even on stall just get picked apart. Then if you are running a team with common threats, there is just not enough resistance that can be had. Yeah, you could theoretically play around it. But at best, you are playing into a bunch of 50/50s with much more pressure on the player switching defensively to not get a turn wrong.

I mean it when I say that I have purposely telegraphed my moves as much as possible against some stall teams just to see how realistic it is to actually be able to play around this thing. It usually ended with one turn KOing or dealing like 80%-90% of a key wall's HP and them just not being able to stop the bleeding after that. Like the stall player has to so much more outplay their opponent that I believe it is unreasonable to expect this from a game where two players are at roughly similar skill level. And I say this as someone who doesn't play stall or even generally like to face it. The only defensive cores I could see working against this thing are like Primarina + Corviknight. Even then, you can compensate for that in the teambuilder. Like you know it's going to be a special defensive fairy and a steel bird or nothing.

The biggest weakness of this set is it isn't a perfect revenge killer. You can still do it, just not against boosted mons. A lot of common threats can wear Choice Scarf or boost to be faster than this. But that's a pretty fair trade off to make when you can have something that essentially functions as a mixed attacking wall breaker that also outspeeds literally the entire unboosted tier.

The biggest issue is the pressure this puts on decision making. D-Speed has a lot of good sets that can do anything from speed control, screens, hazards, to all out attacking. While I don't believe any of the other sets are problematic themselves, the issue becomes predicting what the opposing D-Speed will do. I think this would be much more manageable if not for the kind of set I outlined, which suddenly puts way more pressure on the team and the player in a tier that already has way too much of that.
 
trainer_j0nathan said:
its still the second most used pokemon, dont act like nobody uses kingambit
edit: just looked it up. it was #1. sorry for that mistake haha
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DaddyBuzzwole said:
you're leaving out important context again: gambit is the single most used pokemon in the entire tier. number 2 on low ladder, number 1 on mid ladder, number 1 on high ladder by more than 10 percentage points, and number 2 in spl. in the case of pokemon usage statistics, "1/3 of teams have it" matters a lot more than "2/3 of teams don't have it"
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I didn't say this because I didn't think I needed to. Usage stats are widely available information and "Kingambit is the most used Pokémon" is one of the most surface level analyses you can make about SV OU. Why clog up my post with information that ideally everyone participating in the thread should be aware of?

the fact is, despite being the #1 Mon in the tier due to the unmatched amount of threats it can revenge with just one team slot, the tier is a far cry from the apocalyptic "revolution around Kingambit" that Heatranator describes and being on not even 2 out of 3 teams is one of the many ways that's apparent. I also find it odd Heatranator can speak of Waterpon not being suspect worthy when its counterplay is far more limited than the swaths of incredibly useful and and splashable counterplay than Kingambit has and is far harder to switch into. Kingambit can be shut down with a good resist, or burn or iron defense user, all of which are quite common even before we delve into more specific counterplay like the relatively common encore and substitute, whereas with Ogerpon you're always trading something. No, it just doesn't add up.

"what does Skarmory even do in OU" and "kingambit is incredibly difficult to check" on the same page is also very funny
 
ianlazerbeem said:
I didn't say this because I didn't think I needed to. Usage stats are widely available information and "Kingambit is the most used Pokémon" is one of the most surface level analyses you can make about SV OU. Why clog up my post with information that ideally everyone participating in the thread should be aware of?

the fact is, despite being the #1 Mon in the tier due to the unmatched amount of threats it can revenge with just one team slot, the tier is a far cry from the apocalyptic "revolution around Kingambit" that Heatranator describes and being on not even 2 out of 3 teams is one of the many ways that's apparent. I also find it odd Heatranator can speak of Waterpon not being suspect worthy when its counterplay is far more limited than the swaths of incredibly useful and and splashable counterplay than Kingambit has and is far harder to switch into. Kingambit can be shut down with a good resist, or burn or iron defense user, all of which are quite common even before we delve into more specific counterplay like the relatively common encore and substitute, whereas with Ogerpon you're always trading something. No, it just doesn't add up.

"what does Skarmory even do in OU" and "kingambit is incredibly difficult to check" on the same page is also very funny
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Okay, I looked at the post you were referring to and I did not say anything in the matter of memento sacs, that was straight up wrong from the post you were quoting. It was more along the lines of "Sometimes gambit can cheese its way through teams even if they prepare for it."
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Great Tusk: 188-222 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Need I say more? Like, one of the most bulky mons in the tier can just lose to it, even if you are being careful around it and trying to keep your tusk healthy. Tusk needs to deal with a lot of threats, and you can say it's more an issue of threat saturation, which I would somewhat agree with, but that is still an issue.
You also need to drop the "not being on 2 out of 3 teams" thing. That is just dragging down your arguement because while it is true, it isn't a good arguement to use. Sure, it is not the revolution around Kingambit (again, don't why they said that, the only time I even mentioned memento sacks was for last respects, which gambit is not even close to that level of broken.), but that still is a lot of usage. Also, does waterpon have amazing bulk? Like it has good bulk but it isn't spectacular. Sure, gambit has a 4x weakness, but besides that (which it commonly teras out of, something waterpon can't really do), it is an amazing typing. I find it funny how you list counterplay to gambit when the exact same thing could be said for like, all physical attackers, including waterpon. The id one is a bit iffy for ogerpon due to the high crit rate of ivy cudgel, but still.
There is a reason why gambit is still on many people's watchlist, it is still amazing.
 
Okay, so I have tested this team right here: https://pokepast.es/9e7cb8fca5ae653d and I gotta say a few things about the mons on it.
1. I tried out scarf copycat meow and it is, alright. You can technically shut the hell down some mons if you get the right prediction, though it is more of a gimmick. If you got protean boosts on copycat moves (You turn into a normal type when you use it), it would be so much better. Still, not a bad move but I would say triple axel is better.
2. I tried out the Deo-S set from Bold School and it was, alright? Like it was really difficult to get into the match, and when it did it would usually take 1-2 ko's and then I'd have to switch it out. The best avenue for it was gambit suprisingly enough, you just have to tera dark it though. The speed is also a bit of an issue as slower scarfers/boosted mons outspeed you, requiring another fast scarfer/booster mon which is difficult to build around. Not bad, but I would say hardly broken. It needs a decent amount of support but can work.
3. Primarina rocks. Like this mon is so good. It is amazing against sun teams as bar raging bolt and H-Lilligant, which can be dealt with by teamates and even then they can't switch into you, it is amazing into them. It counters both gouging fire and walking wake hard and can regain health with draining kiss. Like it completely walls wake. It can also potentially live a tera fire gouging fire flare blitz in the sun 70% of the time. Does well against other archetypes that can struggle against the combo of water + fairy. Definetely an amazing mon.
4. Tera Dragon Garganacl is quite good as it can easily wall a lot of mons. Being resistant to both grass and water is quite nice, so I think it could be a great niche option.
 
Heatranator said:
Okay, so I have tested this team right here: https://pokepast.es/9e7cb8fca5ae653d and I gotta say a few things about the mons on it.
1. I tried out scarf copycat meow and it is, alright. You can technically shut the hell down some mons if you get the right prediction, though it is more of a gimmick. If you got protean boosts on copycat moves (You turn into a normal type when you use it), it would be so much better. Still, not a bad move but I would say triple axel is better.
2. I tried out the Deo-S set from Bold School and it was, alright? Like it was really difficult to get into the match, and when it did it would usually take 1-2 ko's and then I'd have to switch it out. The best avenue for it was gambit suprisingly enough, you just have to tera dark it though. The speed is also a bit of an issue as slower scarfers/boosted mons outspeed you, requiring another fast scarfer/booster mon which is difficult to build around. Not bad, but I would say hardly broken. It needs a decent amount of support but can work.
3. Primarina rocks. Like this mon is so good. It is amazing against sun teams as bar raging bolt and H-Lilligant, which can be dealt with by teamates and even then they can't switch into you, it is amazing into them. It counters both gouging fire and walking wake hard and can regain health with draining kiss. Like it completely walls wake. It can also potentially live a tera fire gouging fire flare blitz in the sun 70% of the time. Does well against other archetypes that can struggle against the combo of water + fairy. Definetely an amazing mon.
4. Tera Dragon Garganacl is quite good as it can easily wall a lot of mons. Being resistant to both grass and water is quite nice, so I think it could be a great niche option.
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The primarina is why I’ve replaced kingambit for a raging bolt on my sun team, since even if you uturn on their primarina switch you can’t even bring in wake or gouging. Raging bolt can threaten primarina and tank a moonblast with Tera if prim is evd to outspeed min speed bolt. I’m even considering max speed timid just to beat prim better.
 
Heatranator said:
Okay, so I have tested this team right here: https://pokepast.es/9e7cb8fca5ae653d and I gotta say a few things about the mons on it.
1. I tried out scarf copycat meow and it is, alright. You can technically shut the hell down some mons if you get the right prediction, though it is more of a gimmick. If you got protean boosts on copycat moves (You turn into a normal type when you use it), it would be so much better. Still, not a bad move but I would say triple axel is better.
2. I tried out the Deo-S set from Bold School and it was, alright? Like it was really difficult to get into the match, and when it did it would usually take 1-2 ko's and then I'd have to switch it out. The best avenue for it was gambit suprisingly enough, you just have to tera dark it though. The speed is also a bit of an issue as slower scarfers/boosted mons outspeed you, requiring another fast scarfer/booster mon which is difficult to build around. Not bad, but I would say hardly broken. It needs a decent amount of support but can work.
3. Primarina rocks. Like this mon is so good. It is amazing against sun teams as bar raging bolt and H-Lilligant, which can be dealt with by teamates and even then they can't switch into you, it is amazing into them. It counters both gouging fire and walking wake hard and can regain health with draining kiss. Like it completely walls wake. It can also potentially live a tera fire gouging fire flare blitz in the sun 70% of the time. Does well against other archetypes that can struggle against the combo of water + fairy. Definetely an amazing mon.
4. Tera Dragon Garganacl is quite good as it can easily wall a lot of mons. Being resistant to both grass and water is quite nice, so I think it could be a great niche option.
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Not sure if your team is experimental or not, but it seems like a fairly generic balance. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It looks like a solid team structure. I have certainly run my share of jank and outright bad teams which would not even compare to it. It's just that most of my teams were more offensive in nature. There aren't a lot of things on it that you look at on that team as threats. The D-Speed set isn't really a sweeper or a pure revenge killer. It's more about ripping a hole in the opposing team for your other threats. You can make that work on a balance team structure, but you would probably have to have more big threats than is on this team.

As for difficulty getting it in, I didn't really have that problem much with that when I tested it. But I tended to use very offensive teams and/or have a slow pivot or two on them. So maybe it was my team structures masking this?

I made the choice on one of my very first test team to pair Meowscarada with it because I initially struggled leading against teams that had both these mons on it. I'm glad I did because I came to understand it better. However, I eventually abandoned the idea because lead dilemmas don't really win many games. I also didn't love the synergy the two had. It could be just a personal preference, though. To make it work, you would need to have enough other answers for the metal birds on your team.

Primarina is really good. Water/Fairy is a very useful typing to have. I noticed you went with more of a Calm Mind sweeping set over the ability to pivot with Flip Turn. I'm not saying this was a bad choice because it looks like a very strong set. But I think the only slow pivot you have on your team is maybe Zapdos kind of? It would probably be better for Deoxys if Prim had Flip Turn. However, it would probably be worse for your team.

If I were giving you team building advice, which you should take with a grain of salt, I would honestly just take D-Speed out. I don't think it necesarrily fits the rest of what you were trying to go for the team. You might prefer something like Iron Valiant.

Finally, I'll take some responsibility for hyping D-Speed up without emphasizing the limitations of the set enough. It isn't a sweeper. I said it wasn't a revenge killer, but I probably didn't emphasize enough that this loses to much of boosted meta game. But not when they aren't boosted. This is certainly a problem if you don't account for it in the teambuilder. You should think of this set more like a very fast wallbreaker. The reason why I think it is too much is because of the dilemmas it forces on the opposing players and the lack of switch ins. Wallbreakers aren't supposed to have this speed tier. But it definitely isn't as mindless as some other wallbreakers due to the stat drops.
 
Bold School said:
Not sure if your team is experimental or not, but it seems like a fairly generic balance. And I don't mean that in a bad way. It looks like a solid team structure. I have certainly run my share of jank and outright bad teams which would not even compare to it. It's just that most of my teams were more offensive in nature. There aren't a lot of things on it that you look at on that team as threats. The D-Speed set isn't really a sweeper or a pure revenge killer. It's more about ripping a hole in the opposing team for your other threats. You can make that work on a balance team structure, but you would probably have to have more big threats than is on this team.

As for difficulty getting it in, I didn't really have that problem much with that when I tested it. But I tended to use very offensive teams and/or have a slow pivot or two on them. So maybe it was my team structures masking this?

I made the choice on one of my very first test team to pair Meowscarada with it because I initially struggled leading against teams that had both these mons on it. I'm glad I did because I came to understand it better. However, I eventually abandoned the idea because lead dilemmas don't really win many games. I also didn't love the synergy the two had. It could be just a personal preference, though. To make it work, you would need to have enough other answers for the metal birds on your team.

Primarina is really good. Water/Fairy is a very useful typing to have. I noticed you went with more of a Calm Mind sweeping set over the ability to pivot with Flip Turn. I'm not saying this was a bad choice because it looks like a very strong set. But I think the only slow pivot you have on your team is maybe Zapdos kind of? It would probably be better for Deoxys if Prim had Flip Turn. However, it would probably be worse for your team.

If I were giving you team building advice, which you should take with a grain of salt, I would honestly just take D-Speed out. I don't think it necesarrily fits the rest of what you were trying to go for the team. You might prefer something like Iron Valiant.

Finally, I'll take some responsibility for hyping D-Speed up without emphasizing the limitations of the set enough. It isn't a sweeper. I said it wasn't a revenge killer, but I probably didn't emphasize enough that this loses to much of boosted meta game. But not when they aren't boosted. This is certainly a problem if you don't account for it in the teambuilder. You should think of this set more like a very fast wallbreaker. The reason why I think it is too much is because of the dilemmas it forces on the opposing players and the lack of switch ins. Wallbreakers aren't supposed to have this speed tier. But it definitely isn't as mindless as some other wallbreakers due to the stat drops.
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Ah, that makes more sense. The reason why I don't have flip turn on it is because I found that moonblast's extra power is actually quite nice. It allows you to destroy some targets such as gouging easier. I would also say that I should remove Deo-S, it had its moments but it wasn't coming in that often. It definetely is a great set, it is just that Deo-S' main fame to claim is that speed tier, and while it still is great, it can't really do that as well. As a wallbreaker, it worked well, so I'd say in that regard it is a wallbreaker that can ko faster targets, which is interesting. When this set worked, my god did it work, but it does have limiting factors, so you have to be careful. Maybe piloted by a smart player this could be devastating, so you could be onto something.

Edit: Scarf garg won me a game, no I will not add any context to that statement.
 
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Heatranator said:
1. I tried out scarf copycat meow and it is, alright. You can technically shut the hell down some mons if you get the right prediction, though it is more of a gimmick. If you got protean boosts on copycat moves (You turn into a normal type when you use it), it would be so much better. Still, not a bad move but I would say triple axel is better.
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copycat?

that's a move that I never expected to see anyone use either seriously or ironically.

what does this move do for you?
can you name any instances where it came in handy?
 
Soiramio3000 said:
copycat?

that's a move that I never expected to see anyone use either seriously or ironically.

what does this move do for you?
can you name any instances where it came in handy?
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Well, it can help against lead Deo-S and sticky web leads if you can position them right. Like it can really screw over their game as both sides of the field have positive conditions. It can also help revenge kill things such as a gouging fire locked into dragon claw at around 40%ish health. It just can be a funny option that can help in a few games.
 
It is extremely rewarding to watch where you were plateauing a few weeks ago to become your new average. I had a personal goal to hit some kind of survey qualification since DLC2 and actually made it to a personal peak of 1776 around 250 on ladder this morning. Even falling back down a chunk, the improvement to game sense is really becoming palpable.

I will use this gained knowledge to shill for keeping Raging Bolt around, or at least give my two cents that Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon should be earlier on the chopping block. As other have mentioned, Raging Bolt is an incredibly strong mon, but we have a number of strong immunities in the tier that offer more than just checking Bolt. Additionally, due to this, at least in my experience, it feels easier to force a Tera (and said Tera is usually more linear to play around being mostly Fairy or the occasional ground/flying) as many will aim to preserve the usefulness of a Booster Energy, which is crucially needed to be Gambit tier in its threat level. If it were the first thing we look at, maybe it'd be the best for it to be gone, but I feel at least two of the other Paradox dragons to be more pressing on the builder, personally.
 
Hi. As a lurker and someone who rarely plays this tier, I've been meaning to ask. How enjoyable is the current tier to you guys? I've always heard negative stuff towards this tier and almost never positive ones.
 
Thedeathsofbeings234 said:
Hi. As a lurker and someone who rarely plays this tier, I've been meaning to ask. How enjoyable is the current tier to you guys? I've always heard negative stuff towards this tier and almost never positive ones.
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It's alright? Like it can be fun to play and there is a lot of viable things which is good I guess. However, it can feel overwhelming with the amount of threats you have to account for in the teambuilder and sometimes one wrong turn can mean you lose the game outright.
I would give it about a 6 to 7 in enjoyability, but it definetely could be improved.
 
Ayman said:
Do people on the forums constantly look to complain about the tier and find the next thing to ban? Sure seems like most of the discussion here is to find out the next thing to ban.
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I mean, banning things is usually how we get a better metagame. Idk what you think we would do... I know people on here complain about the metagame a lot, but it is kinda deserved right now with the threat saturation.
Unless your complaining about something like Garganacl being broken, then that is undeserved. But nobody would ever think Garg is broken in DLC2. Right guys? Right????
 
Mikegengsta said:
And this is why we thank Smogon for being in our daily lives to make sure we are having an enjoyable meta otherwise the amount of people here would consider a mass exodus.
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I would like to see an actual message from you, about an actual important topic, with a decent idea, instead of the shit you normally post about trying to diss someone else man. This is supposed to be a place where you can discuss your favourite game in peace.
 
Ayman said:
Do people on the forums constantly look to complain about the tier and find the next thing to ban? Sure seems like most of the discussion here is to find out the next thing to ban.
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I mean, the tier is in shambles as others have pointed out, but still I kinda agree with your sentiment. I would love more of "how do I deal with Raging Bolt in my stall team" or "what do you guys think of Waterpon as a lead" or "hey I found this interesting spread for Ampharos to survive +2 Sucker from Gambit". Right now all we have is "muhh Ghold doesn't let me remove hazards pls ban". It is somewhat necessary, but we should also be playing the tier as is, idk.

EDIT: and on that note i wanna be the umpteenth person to praise Morkal for their posts, keep it up my man
 
arnimacarni said:
I mean, the tier is in shambles as others have pointed out, but still I kinda agree with your sentiment. I would love more of "how do I deal with Raging Bolt in my stall team" or "what do you guys think of Waterpon as a lead" or "hey I found this interesting spread for Ampharos to survive +2 Sucker from Gambit". Right now all we have is "muhh Ghold doesn't let me remove hazards pls ban". It is somewhat necessary, but we should also be playing the tier as is, idk.

EDIT: and on that note i wanna be the umpteenth person to praise Morkal for their posts, keep it up my man
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> +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Ampharos: 322-381 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

> 252 SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 824-972 (241.6 - 285%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Maybe Ampharos has a chance for OU again. This time….. KINGAMBIT BAIT!!!
 
Anchor9 said:
> +2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Ampharos: 322-381 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

> 252 SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 824-972 (241.6 - 285%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Maybe Ampharos has a chance for OU again. This time….. KINGAMBIT BAIT!!!
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+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Tera Fighting Magnezone: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Def Tera Fighting Magnezone Body Press vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 412-492 (104.5 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Maybe Magnezone has a chance for OU again. This time.... KINGAMBIT BAIT!!!
 
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