Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[viivian]

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 369-437 (108.2 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Drain Punch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 369-437 (93.6 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Kingambit quakes in fear of the cactus

there's nothing kingambit hates more than defensive setup mons and that 1 crackhead on low-ladder running cacturne

What do you think about the usage statistics? Anything stand out for you?

besides lando-T (i'm still happy he's top 10 again) uhhh

• / - two of the latest UU drops that felt a bit undeserved in my eyes. not sure if people will catch onto them and start using them again in the near future but i think it's a bit odd that they weren't used much at all, especially considering their place in the meta seems mostly the same. i imagine it's because they're both difficult to fit on teams but beyond that i'm not quite sure
• - not UU but its low usage feels even weirder than that of skeledirge or deoxys-S, especially since it's one of two pokemon that can win 1v1 against bulky gouging fire. blissey's rise also indicates that stall is now relevant in OU and heatran is infamous for destroying stall. so it feels super weird seeing it all the way down at #41
• / - i still don't know why corviknight is being used more than skarmory
• - why are you still here

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Speaking of saving, perhaps save my time and do not lie about qualifying on the survey.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Given that Gouging Fire got above a 4.0 on the survey, may I ask why it isn't being quickbanned since a 4.0 score is typically quickban territory?

to be fair, these are early results and not the final ones, but i have to agree—if it closes out the survey above 4.0, the suspect is just going to be a foregone conclusion and it'd be a much more productive use of our time to just kill the thing and suspect whatever mon number two is. finch did say quickbans would only be considered for something "particularly extreme", but i think that an average above 4 on a 5-point survey already fits the bill

 

[Soiramio3000]

I was right about excadrill, this pokemon just isn't that good for OU.

deoxys speed got me by surprise.

as for skeledigre..... why did it rise to OU again? I don't remember. and why did it fall?

 

[SittinGamer]

From what I remember, surveys are more of an action guide, but said action still ultimately falls on the council. Its quite possible Fire got that high, but the internal vote of no ban/suspect/quickban just favored Suspect due to the potentially longer Gen we now have. (Thank you Gamefreak for not giving us mainseries again until late 2025)

 

[Finchinator]

SV OU Tiering Survey results: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10010014

 

[Finchinator]

Given that Gouging Fire got above a 4.0 on the survey, may I ask why it isn't being quickbanned since a 4.0 score is typically quickban territory?

Very hard to justify a quickban three+ months into a metagame when it saw a sudden spike, which is partially in reaction to another ban (Rain related). It is best to give the metagame time to adjust while also keeping action possible in the immediate future, which fits right into our quick suspect model.

If we quickbanned this on a kneejerk, it would incite literal riots, too. Best to keep our process ahead of our agenda.

 

[j0nathan]

Pretty convincing results tbh. I believe this meta will be great once all the broken shit is gone.
Who tf wants action on boots??
And who said Electro Shot?? Arch is banned.
It's also pretty weird how huge the gap between qualified and general voters regarding gouging fire and ogerpon-w is.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Very hard to justify a quickban three+ months into a metagame when it saw a sudden spike, which is partially in reaction to another ban (Rain related). It is best to give the metagame time to adjust while also keeping action possible in the immediate future, which fits right into our quick suspect model.

If we quickbanned this on a kneejerk, it would incite literal riots, too. Best to keep our process ahead of our agenda.

well, i'd hesitate to call this a "sudden spike" in gouging's problematicity, people have been sounding the alarm bells on it for a while now. calling it a kneejerk makes it sound like gouging hasn't been busted until recently, when it was still a significant problem even during the kyurem and arch suspects. i also think that quickbanning something with a score of 4.1 would probably not "incite literal riots" because the majority of survey respondents want it gone immediately. there'll be like two or three people complaining who already complain about every good decision the council and community make anyway

that said, i'm of course not opposed to a suspect, but this is gonna be the most one-sided vote we've seen since bloodmoon

 

[Avira]

Pretty convincing results tbh. I believe this meta will be great once all the broken shit is gone.
Who tf wants action on boots??
And who said Electro Shot?? Arch is banned.
It's also pretty weird how huge the gap between qualified and general voters regarding gouging fire and ogerpon-w is.

I don't think it's weird. Gouging Fire and Ogerpon-Wellspring are just easy to misuse by players of lesser battling skill or teambuilding skill.

 

[FFK]

Very hard to justify a quickban three+ months into a metagame when it saw a sudden spike, which is partially in reaction to another ban (Rain related). It is best to give the metagame time to adjust while also keeping action possible in the immediate future, which fits right into our quick suspect model.

If we quickbanned this on a kneejerk, it would incite literal riots, too. Best to keep our process ahead of our agenda.

While I do agree, I think we all saw how threatening Gouging Fire is, especially his defensive set since it is able to pp stall: Dondozo lol. I mean, a Pokémon having both great offensive and defensive tools shouldn’t be in OU, we saw it in some OST games and I’m pretty sure it’s been the same in SPL. But your point is right (even though we can’t continue suspecting every mons)

 

[SittinGamer]

While it is something of a Tera hog, I've found Flash Fire Grass Heatran to counter pretty much every set of Gouging I've seen with a fairly basic Magma Storm, Earth Power, Rocks/Taunt, Will-o as you either force it out and sacrifices its boosts or burns tera and no longer gets burn immunity. I'm coming more around to Ogrepon being more oppressive, but I realize this is due to basically having a hard counter to the major threat right now.

 

[Eeveeto]

Pretty convincing results tbh. I believe this meta will be great once all the broken shit is gone.
Who tf wants action on boots??
And who said Electro Shot?? Arch is banned.

This likely was in order to Unban Arch, since non Rain Arch was never broken. Won't happen, but was a nice try.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Do people think at all? Like, I feel really sorry for Finch having to deal with BS like this.
In this day and age, our smartness level has gone way down if people try shit like this. Please don't waste his time.

But a few things I found interesting about the usage statistics.
Deo-S dropped which if you told me before DLC2, I would have laughed at you. It isn't unsuprising for me, but it is something that might change in the future. I believe Deo-S sets were underexplored as it had a wide movepool that could be put to use. I wouldn't be suprised if it rose up again due to a set breaking the metagame wide open.
Not suprised by these, though I am sad that my favourite fire croc dropped. Excadrill was dropping at some point and it will most likely not become OU again this gen.
Stall rises once again. Blissey is really, really great in this high powered metagame. I've recently been playing stall teams, and blissey can shut down a lot of problematic matchups. It only really fits on stall teams, though I do think some non-stall teams could use blissey for some problematic matchups.
Not unsuprised, these mons struggle a lot in this meta as there are simply a lot better mons that fill there roles. The might drop to UU next month, but I think serperior could see some improved usage.
These three mons I am suprised to see low usage. They all are pretty great in the meta but seem to not be used a lot. They might drop next month, but they do have niches in the tier.
Wow, I didn't expect this. Weavile is an amazing mon in the tier, but I guess its frailty has averted people from using it. This definetely could see higher usage in the future.
Did not expect this level of usage. Iron treads has risen from being a meme pick to having a great role in the tier as an alternative spinner to tusk that can check a lot of mons such as raging bolt. I thought it was still outclassed by tusk, but I was proven wrong.
The UU memes are dead, Lando-T has beaten the allegations. With only two sets, Lando has reprised its role as an extremely splashable mon. With good special attack, it can even beat a lot more mons such as tusk easier. It has even overtaken gliscor in usage, which outclassed it previously.
Suprised by this as well, going from 4-5 usage to 6-7 usage is quite a big fall off. Ghold struggles a lot more in this meta, but still can check a lot of mons and be an amazing offensive threat. Meanwhile, iron valiant still can be an offensive threat with most things being outsped by it, I think this usage is a little bit of a lie.

What do you think about the usage statistics? Anything stand out for you?

I like this breakdown, I am personally not surprised by the Meowsc drop at all, though it remains a bit popular I don't think it really belongs in OU, it is likely to eventually drop barring major changes, I find it very bad right now & completely outclassed by Weavile. Protean is a liability when Brokerpon makes Grass a premium defensive type, and it really likes the resistances Dark grants too. Meowscarada has a very awful speed tier, though it's "kind of fast" it just gets shit on by actual fast mons like Zamazenta, Weavile, and Pult so it needs to run Scarf to serve as actual speed control, so U-Turn is not a real advantage since no Boots means it's worn down effortlessly, and with either of those items and Protean not being great the damage output is underwhelming. So it's seriously outclassed but also gets cooked by everything that outclasses it. I consider it kind of a noobtrap now since it's seriously fallen from grace since early DLC2, it wasn't used in a single SPL game and i feel its likely to end the generation in UU barring major changes to the meta

I just saw Deoxys-Speed dropped despite being good in the OU tier, is this new toy syndrome or just a case of being pretty good but not popular with the ladder?


Because I'm genuinely confused on why it might have dropped

Also a bad Mon, it's the opposite of new toy syndrome, it was a new toy, people realized it was shit, then threw the toy away, just like Boulder. Slower than all Booster dudes and does absolutely nothing unique as a lead or offensive Mon, and the combination of traits is not particularly useful. I don't really find it surprising either, it took maybe 48 hours of "whoa this is so fast and learns hazards, it must be a good lead" for people to realize that no, there's no reason to use it, and then started using Glimmora again, which was hypothesized to become unviable thanks to Midoxys

Pretty convincing results tbh. I believe this meta will be great once all the broken shit is gone.
Who tf wants action on boots??
And who said Electro Shot?? Arch is banned.
It's also pretty weird how huge the gap between qualified and general voters regarding gouging fire and ogerpon-w is.

Was definitely CTC who said electro shot. I am not at all surprised about the wellspring discrepancy.

 

[senorlopez]

Very hard to justify a quickban three+ months into a metagame when it saw a sudden spike, which is partially in reaction to another ban (Rain related). It is best to give the metagame time to adjust while also keeping action possible in the immediate future, which fits right into our quick suspect model.

If we quickbanned this on a kneejerk, it would incite literal riots, too. Best to keep our process ahead of our agenda.

I'm sorry but how can you not at least hold a vote when it's been rated so high in combination with the enjoyment of the meta being so comparatively low - people clearly have grievances with a number of mons and not having a vote is way too passive when like 4 mons could meet the threshold for a suspect.

The reason Gouging Fire spiked, as i'm sure you know, is because of the breaking swipe set - it's not a kneejerk reaction but rather oh look at this set that can actually set up on the likes of Gliscor and Great Tusk that was previously unthought of. Darkrai and sleep wasn't a (real) issue until folk starting figuring out running hypnosis on Darkrai allowed them to cheese victories but no one on the council called that a kneejerk reaction.

Who's gonna riot at Gouging Fire getting QB for a 4.1 score? The guy you called out for lying? lol

 

[Heatranator]

I'm sorry but how can you not at least hold a vote when it's been rated so high in combination with the enjoyment of the meta being so comparatively low - people clearly have grievances with a number of mons and not having a vote is way too passive when like 4 mons could meet the threshold for a suspect.

The reason Gouging Fire spiked, as i'm sure you know, is because of the breaking swipe set - it's not a kneejerk reaction but rather oh look at this set that can actually set up on the likes of Gliscor and Great Tusk that was previously unthought of. Darkrai and sleep wasn't a (real) issue until folk starting figuring out running hypnosis on Darkrai allowed them to cheese victories but no one on the council called that a kneejerk reaction.

Who's gonna riot at Gouging Fire getting QB for a 4.1 score? The guy you called out for lying? lol

I don't think you understand. When volc was banned people were furious at the council for doing it, even if I believe it was for the best. Sleep is a completely different ballgame, as that was for tiering policy which as finch has stated, cannot be as easily be understood by using suspect requirements. Darkrai and friends was a secondary part of it and meant that it was proof that sleep was uncompetitive on both sides. The council has to manage both community opinions and tiering at the same time, if one has precedence over the other than that will be bad for the metagame.
I wouldn't mind if it got a suspect or quickban, but if you really want community opinion of smogon to decrease, then be my guest. Cause let me tell you, that is what would happen.

 

[viivian]

SV OU Tiering Survey results: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10010014

hopefully the suspect goes up either tonight or sometime tomorrow cuz i want gouging fire gone so badly. bulky DD variants are pure cancer and offensive DD/choice band sets are unwallable if you aren't running dachsbun

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This likely was in order to Unban Arch, since non Rain Arch was never broken. Won't happen, but was a nice try.

that vote was ctc, i have no doubt. and as much as i have problems with the guy because he makes me look polite, he's not entirely wrong about it. the policy is to ban pokemon over moves when the move is a signature or when the move is only learned by a few other mons that are bad, but the number of pokemon that aren't broken on their own but have extremely problematic signature or near-signature moves is rapidly increasing in a way i'm not really comfortable with. it's absolutely a matter we'll have to discuss in the future and i think a policy review thread on it is warranted. it's not just electro shot, it's the fact that houndstone had to be banned pre-home because nothing else got last respects even though multiple council members are on record saying they'd rather have banned last respects; it's annihilape being a perfectly fine mon outside of rage fist but primeape sucking so hard that even rage fist doesn't work on it; it's garg being a complete unmon without salt cure but a significant ou presence with it. some people seem to think that changing the policy in this way will trigger some sort of slippery slope where we'll end up being like "uhhhh let's unban palkia but at level 90 and with no stabs", which is frankly kind of silly to assume because the council is absolutely competent enough to recognize when a specific move is the problem and put that on the chopping block instead of a mon. this isn't the us government, we're not gonna be putting incompetent morons in charge, so we should stop tiptoeing around the issue of signature move bans like there's a risk of it triggering a complex-ban landslide. i do, however, have gripes with people making this argument on the meta discussion thread when it should warrant a larger tiering-policy discussion instead, or insisting that a move should be banned over a mon right now when that's not how the policy works. don't advocate for the council to break policy, advocate for the policy to change

 

[senorlopez]

I don't think you understand. When volc was banned people were furious at the council for doing it, even if I believe it was for the best. Sleep is a completely different ballgame, as that was for tiering policy which as finch has stated, cannot be as easily be understood by using suspect requirements. Darkrai and friends was a secondary part of it and meant that it was proof that sleep was uncompetitive on both sides. The council has to manage both community opinions and tiering at the same time, if one has precedence over the other than that will be bad for the metagame.
I wouldn't mind if it got a suspect or quickban, but if you really want community opinion of smogon to decrease, then be my guest. Cause let me tell you, that is what would happen.

I don't understand your point so feel free to elaborate. People were mad at the Volc QB because it wasn't on the survey and wasn't voted for. GF has been voted for and received a high score. Quick banning this is significantly less contentious than quickbanning sleep and volc across the entire community - it's more contentious to not ban it than it is to ban.

 

[Heatranator]

I don't understand your point so feel free to elaborate. People were mad at the Volc QB because it wasn't on the survey and wasn't voted for. GF has been voted for and received a high score. Quick banning this is significantly less contentious than quickbanning sleep across the entire community.

It may be slightly less contentious, but it would still be contentious. The 4.1 is for qualified, while 3.5 is for general. That is actually lower than sleep, which you keep mentioning. Sleep was a multi-faceted issue as it contradicted tiering policy which prohibites mods in the game as much as possible. It was a relic from the past that didn't have any reason to stay in OU, as it made games that could not be replicated on cart. The Darkrai stuff came up and showed people that not only was it against tiering policy, it also could cheese wins. Sleep actually was put up by the council on Jan 10, and was banned on Jan 23. That's about 2 weeks. That's for a mechanic that had multi-faceted issues. It has been the same amount of time for something that actually got less on the survey score.
TLDR, sleep and gouging are not comparable to each other. One was about tiering policy, the other for a mon.

 

[senorlopez]

It may be slightly less contentious, but it would still be contentious. The 4.1 is for qualified, while 3.5 is for general. That is actually lower than sleep, which you keep mentioning. Sleep was a multi-faceted issue as it contradicted tiering policy which prohibites mods in the game as much as possible. It was a relic from the past that didn't have any reason to stay in OU, as it made games that could not be replicated on cart. The Darkrai stuff came up and showed people that not only was it against tiering policy, it also could cheese wins. Sleep actually was put up by the council on Jan 10, and was banned on Jan 23. That's about 2 weeks. That's for a mechanic that had multi-faceted issues. It has been the same amount of time for something that actually got less on the survey score.
TLDR, sleep and gouging are not comparable to each other. One was about tiering policy, the other for a mon.

Dude, i'm talking about sleep because finch alluded to his post they're not QB because of the supposed reaction when sleep is a significantly more contentious issue across the community and that didn't stop them from QB sleep. I'm pointing out the inconsistencies in rationale. You can say the banning of sleep is different than a mon because of policy but using the rationale of not QB because of community reaction doesn't hold weight because of that inconsistency.

 

[RS25802580]

I don't understand your point so feel free to elaborate. People were mad at the Volc QB because it wasn't on the survey and wasn't voted for. GF has been voted for and received a high score. Quick banning this is significantly less contentious than quickbanning sleep and volc across the entire community.

AFAIK, a quickban is supposed to be an emergency measure for a mon tearing apart the meta and/or a way to instill order when they are many new releases at once. This is regard to banning mons, not policy changes (sleep). Gouging Fire meets none of these requirements because 1) while it is likely banworthy, the meta is in no emergency, and 2) the meta has been settling for a while. “This mon will probably get banned anyway so we might as well save ourselves the time” is not a valid reason for a quickban over a suspect.

 

[Finchinator]

well, i'd hesitate to call this a "sudden spike" in gouging's problematicity, people have been sounding the alarm bells on it for a while now. calling it a kneejerk makes it sound like gouging hasn't been busted until recently, when it was still a significant problem even during the kyurem and arch suspects.

It was below 3 on the survey multiple times. You’re entitled to your personal opinion, but what I said clearly captured the community’s sentiment. It spiked after the Arch ban and giving it time while having a suspect ongoing is the best way to capture the situation.

It is a lot easier to quickban something that was that high immediately at release or when people discover a new strategy and it makes the tier unplayable.

Quikcbans aren’t intended to be used well into the lifespan of a metagame just because opinions finally evolved or in response to a prior ban, especially if it was due to a prior suspect. That’s what suspects are designed for.

 

[senorlopez]

AFAIK, a quickban is supposed to be an emergency measure for a mon tearing apart the meta and/or a way to instill order when they are many new releases at once. This is regard to banning mons, not policy changes (sleep). Gouging Fire meets none of these requirements because 1) while it is likely banworthy, the meta is in no emergency, and 2) the meta has been settling for a while. “This mon will probably get banned anyway so we might as well save ourselves the time” is not a valid reason for a quickban over a suspect.

I can agree with your last point on the time aspect shouldn't be an issue - it shouldn't, it's just frustrating seeing an enjoyment rating being relatively low and lots of action seemingly being needed in a tier seeing how many things rated high as being problematic. WRT meta being in an emergency, this is entirely subjective - my point being mons have been QB in the past for a lot less in terms of community feedback.

 

[Finchinator]

I'm sorry but how can you not at least hold a vote when it's been rated so high in combination with the enjoyment of the meta being so comparatively low - people clearly have grievances with a number of mons and not having a vote is way too passive when like 4 mons could meet the threshold for a suspect.

I never said anything about not holding a vote or our internal process. Only a small portion of the council wants a quickban while the vast majority of us seem to want a suspect.

People have far more grievances with abuse of power and unjust QBs than they do any solution that lets them publicly vote via suspect.

The reason Gouging Fire spiked, as i'm sure you know, is because of the breaking swipe set - it's not a kneejerk reaction but rather oh look at this set that can actually set up on the likes of Gliscor and Great Tusk that was previously unthought of. Darkrai and sleep wasn't a (real) issue until folk starting figuring out running hypnosis on Darkrai allowed them to cheese victories but no one on the council called that a kneejerk reaction.

Who's gonna riot at Gouging Fire getting QB for a 4.1 score? The guy you called out for lying? lol

That set only became as good as it did after the metagame shifted partially away from high pressure Rain, which led to an uptick in Gliscor, Tusk, etc. that it could set up on. You being unable to identify root cause isn’t really my problem. The shift in survey scores speaks to my point.

People get very upset at any QB this far from release. They aren’t designed to be dished out as opposed to suspects in this context at this point in the timeline unless there’s another factor contributing beyond what is present here.