Superpower Pon does beat a lot of the checks I listed but according to Pikalytics, Superpower is only on 18% of sets. Encore is a lot more common coming in at 38% usage. Serp, while not a perfect check, is often able to trade with Pon to get a glare off. IDef Zama is also able to switch in more often than not once due to Ogerpon's speed tier. It takes 50% maximum from Ivy Cudgel without a defense boost and then takes 25% from Cudgel at +2 defense. Assuming Zama is at 75% HP (Takes 30ish from Cudgel at +1 defense then factor in lefties), then it has a good chance to live and potentially ohko Oger after rocks. Tera Dragon Pex can lose if it takes rocks, yes, but the main Pex set right now runs boots. As for Tera Dragon being because of Ogerpon, I think it is a moot point. Dragon is an excellent defensive typing with several important resists. While SVOU is a different metagame, this
Tera Type Index shows 6 primarily defensive/utility pokemon in SVOU that were running Tera Dragon before Ogerpon even released. To say that turning a defensive pokemon into a Dragon type is "wasting a team's most valuable asset" is simply not true.
18% is quite a lot on ladder, and i expect that to rise a lot more too, since people were generally on the encore train as they realised how good that was in sv. regardless you cannot deny its viability when waterpon literally has only like 2 proper checks if using superpower, and everything else dies. id zama can also only switch into it once, because next time it loses, next time either waterpon can take a hit and ko back, or it just outright teras on the switch and kos it after rock. your ignoring that pex can take chip of any kind, and that its forced to tera, forced to run toxic, forced to run physdef, and even then it still has a 25% chance to lose lol. and you bring up svou which is a completely different meta, and i think atp i have to ignore it lol, but glad you brought it up actually. do you see any of these mons with dragon as their primary tera type? its always the second or third or fourth option. now you ask a natdex player how many mons tera dragon is their primary option, and even forced to in some cases like dondozo or gking. and yes, forcing you to tera dragon early on just to have a check to it is “wasting a teams most valuable asset”, because now they inherently have the upper hand with the option to tera reactively / proactively and you dont. this is an undeniable fact, you cannot just say this is not true, just because some mons have used tera dragon in the past, non of them were forced to tera early on solely to have a waterpon “check”.
Zama had a 60% winrate in week 2 of NDWC with 21% usage. I do see that its performance in week 1 was middling but I think more data is needed from NDWC before a significant conclusion can be drawn.
and this is why just looking at winrate doesnt actually work. if you actually watched the games, you would see that id zama only won 2 games, and one of it was against another id zama where all it (the winning id zama) did was sack itself vs the opposing id zama. otherwise, the rest was all boots with iirc one band set. its performance in both weeks was middling, and you would have known if you watched the games with it lol.
Admittedly, Slowbro is an excellent check that I did ignore so fair point there. I think that Volc and Zapdos are not excellent checks however since they both lose to banded Zama. +1 Volc doesn't kill even with fire blast since Zama has 92/115 special bulk. Clef, as you mentioned, loses bad to tera steel + heavy slam which is the main set found on Smogon Dex.
dude no one is using banded zama. u dont need to keep bringing it up, even the most adamant pro ban zama agrees that this set is garbage and that no one is using it. it is not hard to guess the set based on play and team structure, and can be scouted with the million regen mons we have in the tier, or with lando. why does volc even have to ohko, it just qds up and fishes with burns lol, then it can 2hko it. clef loses to one set, but beats the rest, repeating what i said doesnt make your point any more valid.
This tier has a sample team with banded Zama. Even if it is not the best set, it's still something people need to prepare for and be ready to play around.
i talked to ineros about this team when it was uploaded, and they agreed that boots would be a better set here, but it was already uploaded and they enjoyed it with band anyways. yeah sure people need to be “prepared” for it, and thats why we have the million checks for it already, and 24 regen mons to scout it lol. doesnt change the fact its a bad set.
Yea, I'm not gonna lie, the Pex calc is not the best illustration of my point. Here's a better one along with a frame of reference:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 242-286 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 230-272 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
this calc might even be worse lol, and if you want to bring up samples, the sample stall (which is probably what 99% of people who are using stall in this tier are using) has a pex, so this calc is moot and irrelevant.
I feel as though a lot of these things could also be said about Gambit. While yes, there is effort that goes into positioning and keeping it healthy, that effort is there with pretty much every offensive pokemon and once Zama/Gambit are in safely, you're free to click buttons.
it is completely unable to be said at all about gambit, since gambit didnt have any long term walls at all, and it has a move that generates progress 100% of the time, that zama doesnt, and comparing the two is laughable. you click body press into the lando no progress, you click cc into the lando or glisc no progress, you click ice fang into the pex no progress, u click id when they go pex no progress, u click yada yada yada no progress. you just are unable to do anything at all if you are an id zama and there is a pex / bro on the opposing team, depending on your tera type this list goes up even higher. genuinely you did not play / watch gambit meta if you think the 2 are even comparable, and even then, gambit suspect was very close lol.
Zama had a 60% winrate in week 2 of NDWC with 21% usage. I do see that its performance in week 1 was middling but I think more data is needed from NDWC before a significant conclusion can be drawn.
and this is why just looking at winrate doesnt actually work. if you actually watched the games, you would see that id zama only won 2 games, and one of it was against another id zama where all it (the winning id zama) did was sack itself vs the opposing id zama. otherwise, the rest was all boots with iirc one band set. its performance in both weeks was middling, and you would have known if you watched the games with it lol.
Admittedly, Slowbro is an excellent check that I did ignore so fair point there. I think that Volc and Zapdos are not excellent checks however since they both lose to banded Zama. +1 Volc doesn't kill even with fire blast since Zama has 92/115 special bulk. Clef, as you mentioned, loses bad to tera steel + heavy slam which is the main set found on Smogon Dex.
dude no one is using banded zama. u dont need to keep bringing it up, even the most adamant pro ban zama agrees that this set is garbage and that no one is using it. it is not hard to guess the set based on play and team structure, and can be scouted with the million regen mons we have in the tier, or with lando. why does volc even have to ohko, it just qds up and fishes with burns lol, then it can 2hko it. clef loses to one set, but beats the rest, repeating what i said doesnt make your point any more valid.
This tier has a sample team with banded Zama. Even if it is not the best set, it's still something people need to prepare for and be ready to play around.
i talked to ineros about this team when it was uploaded, and they agreed that boots would be a better set here, but it was already uploaded and they enjoyed it with band anyways. yeah sure people need to be “prepared” for it, and thats why we have the million checks for it already, and 24 regen mons to scout it lol. doesnt change the fact its a bad set.
Yea, I'm not gonna lie, the Pex calc is not the best illustration of my point. Here's a better one along with a frame of reference:
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 242-286 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 230-272 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
this calc might even be worse lol, and if you want to bring up samples, the sample stall (which is probably what 99% of people who are using stall in this tier are using) has a pex, so this calc is moot and irrelevant.
I feel as though a lot of these things could also be said about Gambit. While yes, there is effort that goes into positioning and keeping it healthy, that effort is there with pretty much every offensive pokemon and once Zama/Gambit are in safely, you're free to click buttons.
it is completely unable to be said at all about gambit, since gambit didnt have any long term walls at all, and it has a move that generates progress 100% of the time, that zama doesnt, and comparing the two is laughable. you click body press into the lando no progress, you click cc into the lando or glisc no progress, you click ice fang into the pex no progress, u click id when they go pex no progress, u click yada yada yada no progress. you just are unable to do anything at all if you are an id zama and there is a pex / bro on the opposing team, depending on your tera type this list goes up even higher. genuinely you did not play / watch gambit meta if you think the 2 are even comparable, and even then, gambit suspect was very close lol.
Like Ogerpon, they are manageable because of their frailty and relatively poor speed tiers.
this cannot be a serious message, right? waterpon, frail? when its special bulk with tera lets it completely flip the matchup on would-be revenge killers like torn, and poor speed tier, when its pretty much the fastest a mon can be without actually being speed control? come on lol. its mdia but with bulk and lele but with a speed tier.
Unless it gets a turn to SD, it's not strong enough to do anything.
this is 100% not true at all lol, just watching some of the wcop games last week instantly dismisses this as a fairy tale. the mon has forced teras without even needing to sd, just raw cudgeling its checks, and forces them into recovery / beats them outright since they are easy to wear down.
Looking at the
HO Sample Team it's easy to see that Ogerpon can't really come in safely on any of the pokemon here.
good that you bring up my sample, because the reason why this is so strong against waterpon is because i prepped incredibly hard vs it as other iterations have struggled against it. without waterpon i probably wouldnt use serp and might even change the dnite set / dnite in general to something else.