Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING SURVEY UP]

[Insolence]

Ironically Stall struggles the most with Kyurem out of any archetype. They don’t run bulky steels that can pivot around it like Gambit, no offensive mons that can threaten Kyu out, no AV Gking, nada. However Stall definitely has ways around it.

One thing I found was that Mola with 144HP/112Def/252SpD can tank one Specs Freeze Dry at full and tech Mirror Coat to wipe it off the face of the Earth. There was also a Rachi Stall knexhawk ran which checks most Kyurem variants nicely. The set variant they have to watch out for is DD and hope it’s not carrying Freeze Dry.

This is just straight up wrong. Nearly all stall players of note disagree with you given nearly every stall player voted DNB for the Kyurem suspect test. There are clear outs, sometimes with Tera if need be. You just have to figure out what set it is, which there will be room to do given how fat most stall teams are.

Specs Kyurem is very annoying as it has only one switch in (Blissey) but there are ways to play around it, with and without tera. The much bigger issue are the mixed attacker sets (NMI Kyurem got popularized by that Probopass HO RMT and is good outside of just stallbusting.) Body Press Kyurem is a mid ladder classic, I remember people complaining in the stall discord about it before the Volc suspect.

Volc's ban has been pretty bad for stall, not only because it had a good matchup into the moth itself, but because the presence of sweepers that you can't afford to give a turn or two pushes the metagame towards a faster state, which benefits stall. The classic mons that 6-0 stall on team preview like Ursaluna + Wish, Haxorus, or Hoopa-U all tend to be very slow and have terrible matchups into non-fat teams. Even outside of those, there are plenty of mons that are absurdly good against stall and aren't liabilities into everything else. Mixed Kyurem sets were the catalyst for this conversation, but stuff like Primarina, Boots Pult, Woger, Taunt/Knock Goon, and SD Scor are everywhere and while you don't just instawin on load they are independently great mons who put a ton of pressure on stall.

Stall teams are adapting, for example there's a lot more usage of Pex as it matches up well into both Prim and mixed Kyurem, but opens up holes in your team elsewhere. It'll probably take some time for the metagame to shift and people to cook up some new strats, but at the moment it definitely feels like the weakest main archetype.

 

[Achohermano]

After playing a lot since Volc ban, I think the meta has improved a lot and while Kyurem, Zamazenta, Roaring Moon and Waterpon have a really big wincon every single game even you see them coming up, they're quite more manageable than they were before the moth was out.

I say this from personal experience making teams, you can fit a gameplan for all of this mons in one team, as some of them get overlapped checks. However, I wouldn't be aganist a suspect test for any of these Pokémon, or other stuff like Raging Bolt.
Specs Kyurem, even while predictable, with support from pivoting and stuff like Cinderace to remove hazards can be quite problematic for any team. Zamazenta can go to town if its check get a bit low, same with RMoon. And Waterpon is, in my opinion, the best wallbreaker in the tier, as well as a solid cleaner. Maybe having the four of them in the same tier alongside Gambit is too much but again, I think that we're fine for now.

As for the booster energy stuff, hard disagree. The only mon that abuses it to a dangerous degree is Roaring Moon. Valiant is balanced and (in my opinion) a healthy addition to the metagame. The three paradox dogs are solid in the tier (I think Wake is the worse tho) and any of them is problematic in my opinion. Iron Moth is really weak to hazards, paper thin bulk and hits hard but can be checked by priority and walls like Clodsire. Iron Boulder is ok, and Iron Crown is a cool pressence in the meta that I don't think anyone will argue is "broken" or un healthy.
So what else do we have left to discuss about paradoxes, Iron Leaves, Iron Hands, Sandy Shocks?
In my opinion, Booster energy isn't, wasn't and won't be ever a problem, and would in fact just make cool stuff like Sandy worse

 

[Tio Chico]

Just wait until I pull up with

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Psychic
- Protect
(PRAY TO ARECEUS FOR NO TERA FIRE TERA BLAST)

If this becomes truly niche, we would start to see Weather Ball in Sun. Kyurem has all the tools to make a safe switch in impossible.
Remember that no Pokémon can obtain Freeze-Dry coverage with Tera Blast.
When it was suspected, many treated it as a necessary evil to keep Rain in check, well, we barely have Rain anymore now and Archaludon, a pillar of that structure, is gone.

 

[weirdo faye]

Personally feel if I'm playing bronzong got to run heatproof people just assume it's always levitate factor of surprise contributes heavily to winning

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I’ve been theorising a sash lead valiant set that I’ve said a few times already. Close combat, Moonblast, taunt, shadow sneak. This theoretically matches up well into lots of leads, forgoing hazards for either hazard denial or immediate pressure.

Theory:

Deny Glimmora hazards with taunt and break its sash with Moonblast, then send in a teammate to kill it before it can get any hazards

Beat DoS and Hamurott leads with Moonblast shadow sneak, only letting them get one hazard and hopefully be unscathed to annoy the other them.

Force ribombee to choose between sticky web and damaging valiant with Moonblast + shadow sneak

I think for the rest of the leads, you threaten them and/or can fully shut them down with taunt.

You do lose against Hatterene however.

 

[weirdo faye]

Provide some replays maybe ppl here including me will be sold

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I’m gonna admit it’s theory…

I’m gonna think of a team for this first. Y’all can use this to prove it too, if you want.

 

[Finchinator]

People have used BE Moon/Knock/Taunt/DBond Valiant as a psuedo lead (matchup dependent) at times. Personally wouldn’t bother with sash as it ends up being useless a ton of the time and doesn’t even do better than BE would against Samu-H while Ribombee still gets Webs up

 

[HyperX]

I Spent Like 30Mins Reading all that But I agree NGL

 

[HyperX]

View attachment 580256

What Is The Meaning Of This

 

[sims796]

I dunno if we're off the Meow topic, but Tera Ghost TrickScarf does wonders against Zamen.

 

[pika pal]

Personally feel if I'm playing bronzong got to run heatproof people just assume it's always levitate factor of surprise contributes heavily to winning

That wouldn't really work unless you run HDB on Bronzong (which in turn gives away no Leftovers) since Spikes damage gives away the lack of Levitate and then here comes GT or Kyurem EP

 

[RS25802580]

Thank you for pointing this out. Definitely something I missed in my counterpoint section. I'm going to respond to this one since it is much better written and doesn't contain points I already addressed in my original post (i.e. Bolt being "perfectly balanced and easy to stop").

Not every Booster Energy user has to be top-tier with booster, just like how not every mon with Hypnosis was top-tier. The ones that ARE top-tier, though, are really oppressive, in my opinion, but don't have to be banned on their own. Iron Valiant and the rare Iron Boulder break speed tiers while GFire/Rmoon/Bolt just bust through teams. Their checks don't even have to be fully removed. To address the point made about Iron Bundle/Flutter Mane being broken without booster, that doesn't change the fact that they would be broken WITH booster, too.

The argument I'm making is with regards to mons and booster energy AS THEY ARE IN OU. Mons that are Ubers without Booster would still be Ubers. Mons that are lower tier with booster will still be lower tier after a potential ban. The only mons a booster ban would affect are borderline-broken mons that people have issue with. Does that make sense? I'm happy to explain more.

I completely agree with pika pal here. Please keep in mind that there are lesser viable OU booster mons that can still pull weight on the right teams like Jugulis, Slither Wing, Shocks etc. It’s not really fair to look at the top X souped up abusers, and say that booster energy is categorically the problem, while ignoring the niche ones.

The argument “Juggs/Slither/Shocks aren’t the most common in OU anyway” also doesn’t sit with me. It’s up to players to decide what they want to use in OU, and that includes the niche/heat sets.

Smogon policy is generally to ban the abusers, not the mechanic, as long as there are some mons who are still healthy with it. Primeape being fine was why Annihilape was banned rather than Rage Fist. Sleep was a more nuanced discussion that came to the conclusion that the entire mechanic as a whole was uncompetitive, no matter the setting.

Getting back to Booster, I think we’d need to a nuanced conversation about whether or not the mechanic is uncompetitive. I’m kind of undecided right now so I’d like to hear peoples’ opinions.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

I completely agree with pika pal here. Please keep in mind that a ban affects lower tiers too. OU is not the only tier with booster-viable mons. Things like booster Jugulis, booster Slither Wing, booster Shocks are perfectly viable options in tiers below OU. It’s not really fair to look at only OU, which has the highest powerlevel of the tiers, and say that booster energy is categorically the problem.

Smogon policy is generally to ban the abusers, not the mechanic, as long as there are some mons who are still healthy with it. Primeape being fine was why Annihilape was banned rather than Last Respects. Sleep was a more nuanced discussion that came to the conclusion that the entire mechanic as a whole was uncompetitive, no matter the setting.

Getting back to Booster, I think we’d need to have that conversation about whether or not the mechanic is uncompetitive globally. This isn’t necessarily the same as just looking at the most souped up abusers in OU.

The effects on lower tiers of banning a move/item/category aren't and shouldn't be considered when doing said ban. If banning Booster Energy would make UU have less good Pokémon, it doesn't matter. OU's legality is used as a basis of how tiering a generation is, it's not the other way around.

 

[EpicGuy321]

Personally feel if I'm playing bronzong got to run heatproof people just assume it's always levitate factor of surprise contributes heavily to winning

You can't switch into ground moves then, though.

 

[RS25802580]

The effects on lower tiers of banning a move/item/category aren't and shouldn't be considered when doing said ban. If banning Booster Energy would make UU have less good Pokémon, it doesn't matter. OU's legality is used as a basis of how tiering a generation is, it's not the other way around.

Thanks, I actually agree with this. I edited my last comment accordingly because the whole thing about lower tiers was kind of tangential to what I was trying to get at.

I still think there needs to be discussion about whether or not booster is uncompetitive as a mechanic in OU. What do you think?

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Thanks, I actually agree with this. I edited my last comment accordingly because the whole thing about lower tiers was kind of tangential to what I was trying to get at.

I still think there needs to be discussion about whether or not booster is uncompetitive as a mechanic in OU. What do you think?

Booster Energy ban from a tiering perspective seems quite finnicky to implement since not all Paradox Pokemon are even relevant to the OU tier, let alone broken. In addition, none of the good paradox Pokemon in OU are particularly overwhelming besides Roaring Moon depending on the matchup. The item can feel overcentralizing and definitely messes with how speed tiers work within SV OU but those feelings on my end from objective analysis, are more opinionated than yknow an actual problem in the metagame. Booster Energy is fine albeit widely thought to be a bit over-tuned for an item and kind of a nuisance but it doesn't mean it needs a ban. We have had annoying things in metagames before like Toxapex in 8, Gliscor and Mega Mawile in 7, not everything has to be fun or feel additive to the metagame. Sometimes a bit of friction adds to a metagames uniqueness which I don't think is a bad thing so long as it doesn't ruin the competitive integrity of the metagame.

 

[Venuesaur]

I think Kingambit would be a lot harder to handle without Zamazenta and Ogerpon-Wellspring, with the latter almost certainly being banned in the next suspect test if Zama were banned. Ogerpon-Cornerstone and base Ogerpon are nowhere near as splashable, and a lot of the lower-viability mons you listed as answers are just not great in general. While I could see Kingambit being managable with Zama gone, it will be a lot harder to deal with if Wellspring also goes.

I don't know if this is true in regards to grasspon; Grasspon's difference with waterpon isn't in splashability, as I'd argue grasspon fits on a lot of teams that waterpon can't fit on thanks to its tera and being able to run boots.

As well, I've been going over my thoughts on the metagame in regards to potential next steps. I've lightened a bit on Waterpon, although its still largely deserving of a suspect in my opinion. It's power and speed within the metagame is really centralising, to the point where balance is largely forced to build around it in terms of the offensive mons it can fit on it. 110 speed should be very fast, but because Waterpon is so strong it actually becomes rather mediocre; offensive mons that don't have 110 speed become much worse because of that. As well, Ivy Cudgel being an earthquake with a crit chance can become really annoying. However, balance has started to find ways of playing against it that are already quite solid. Grasspon, Zamazenta and Dragapult are all great offensive mons that can often come in on Waterpon while still providing a ton of value otherwise. It also is legitimately hazard weak, so despite its general silliness there's an argument to be made that, while the meta has centralised around it, its done so where its not a problem.

However, I think Kyurem is actually potentially more suspect worthy then I initially thought. Kyurem is weird because despite its sheer power, I'd argue its awkward to build around on balance, where its awkward speed tier and defensive typing means its often too poor into offense. Boots Kyurem I'd also argue is kind of an awkward set with the sheer amount of Gking everywhere. What I'd argue breaks Kyurem is specs; theoretically, specs should be okay. You can build around it through freeze dry resists and protect spam cores, and Gking can theoretically scout it and then move to a freeze dry resist. As well, building with waters means that Kyurem can often be forced to click the weaker freeze dry instead of ice beam. However, I think this skips the big issue with Kyurem which is its freeze chances. Kyurem can often just get away with clicking ice moves repeatedly and fishing for the freeze chance on all its moves, especially with specs, where it can hit so hard with tera ice that it often doesnt even need to predict, unlike with boots. This means that every time a freeze dry resist comes in, its not only taking massive damage but its threatening to get frozen, something that can outright cause a loss, or at the very least move the game state to a near irreversible point. This is especially true considering that often both boots and specs Kyurem run 3 ice moves, meaning its even more dangerous. If Kyurem can click 4 ice type moves in a game, this means that it has a roughly 34% chance to freeze something, which is fairly huge and can actually just lead to kyurem's fishing for a win. Now, Kyurem definitely has problems; specs needs hazard support, and boots often can feel like it struggles against common walls like GKing and Garg. However, I think that the freeze chance as well as the sheer power specs provides makes the trades worth it. As well, the hazards argument I think falls short; Kyurem doesnt need to come in that frequently to have a significant chance of landing a freeze, as well as the fact that you may not be able to get hazards up against it depending on how the match goes before hand. Because of this, I'd argue that Kyurem is really a mon that should be looked at for the next suspect test.

 

[Avira]

I don't know if this is true in regards to grasspon; Grasspon's difference with waterpon isn't in splashability, as I'd argue grasspon fits on a lot of teams that waterpon can't fit on thanks to its tera and being able to run boots.

It is true to an extent given Ogerpon-Wellspring can switch into Alomomola with impunity 'cause of Water Absorb and stuff any Water-type attack, which would force things like Walking Wake to be careful with clicking Hydro Steam. Waterpon can also force Kingambit out if uses Iron Head with the threat of Encore due to its typing, which neither base Ogerpon nor Rockpon can do.

Base Ogerpon also doesn't have the raw power to muscle through a lot of the things Wellspring breaks with ease, limiting it more to a supportive speed control option. Even with Wellspring gone, I doubt you'll see base Ogerpon approaching the Top 10 in usage even if it ends up being OU in the long run.

 

[June Heat]

As well, I've been going over my thoughts on the metagame in regards to potential next steps. I've lightened a bit on Waterpon, although its still largely deserving of a suspect in my opinion. It's power and speed within the metagame is really centralising, to the point where balance is largely forced to build around it in terms of the offensive mons it can fit on it. 110 speed should be very fast, but because Waterpon is so strong it actually becomes rather mediocre; offensive mons that don't have 110 speed become much worse because of that. As well, Ivy Cudgel being an earthquake with a crit chance can become really annoying. However, balance has started to find ways of playing against it that are already quite solid. Grasspon, Zamazenta and Dragapult are all great offensive mons that can often come in on Waterpon while still providing a ton of value otherwise. It also is legitimately hazard weak, so despite its general silliness there's an argument to be made that, while the meta has centralised around it, its done so where its not a problem.

How is it centralizing? What offensive Mons are being forced on the side line because of Ogerpon-W? If laddering, and watching tournament replays has shown me anything is that you can largely ignore Ogerpon-W in the builder, and get away with just using good mons and good moves. Like, None of the current OU offensive threats are being pushed out of OU because of her, and honestly neither are the defensive threats. You'd think if Ogerpon-W was such an overwhelming threat that Pokemon like Alomomola, Gliscor, and Garganacl would be a dying breed, but that just isn't the case. In fact they're thriving! That's largely because Ogerpon-W isn't the centralizing, boogeyman threat that people are betraying her as. Natural Teambuilding practices are more than enough to keep her in check. Hazards, Status, Faster Threats are all easy to slot in on teams, and either completely cripple Ogerpon-W, or make it very hard for her to find switch in opportunities. Of course I'm not saying she is bad. In fact Ogerpon-W is quite the good Pokemon. Just not broken, and really worthy of a suspect imo.

 

[Moyashi]

However, balance has started to find ways of playing against it that are already quite solid. Grasspon, Zamazenta and Dragapult are all great offensive mons that can often come in on Waterpon while still providing a ton of value otherwise. It also is legitimately hazard weak,

Ehhhhh.... Zama is probably the best of those offensive checks simply because it is so naturally physically bulky but it takes just one crit and it's no longer a good switch in. This is especially nasty if it happens on the first switch in, and if Zama burned its +1 from Dauntless earlier then it isn't too reliable a switch in more than once or twice (and if a crit occurs, only once). This also applies to Grasspon and Dragapult, the latter being especially screwed if it gets nailed by Play Rough or Knock Off instead of a stab move. Of course they're still good short term options, as good as you're gonna get for offensive counterplay anyways for Balance teams but those teams still need a backbone that doesn't crumple under it because they're can't rely on just one offensive check like those three.

nd watching tournament replays has shown me anything is that you can largely ignore Ogerpon-W in the builder,

Sorry but this is just full flat out wrong. I'm not sure what tournament replays you've been watching, but you cannot ignore it in the builder especially for balance and bulkier teams. That's one of the most foolish decisions you could make when building balance especially because it flattens them.

You'd think if Ogerpon-W was such an overwhelming threat that Pokemon like Alomomola, Gliscor, and Garganacl would be a dying breed, but that just isn't the case. That's largely because Ogerpon-W isn't the centralizing, boogeyman threat that people are betraying her as. Natural Teambuilding practices are more than enough to keep her in check.

That's not how it works? Teams running those are obviously carrying answers to Wellspring so they can still run these great pokemon. It's more a testament to how excellent they are that they're still able to thrive in spite of its presence. But those teams are having to go to specific lengths to actually cover for it, as standard SD+Stabs+PR doesn't really have much in the way of defensive answers (I miss Ferrothorn btw).

Wellspring is 100% centralizing and very much for bulkier teams.

Hazards, Status, Faster Threats are all easy to slot in on teams, and either completely cripple Ogerpon-W, or make it very hard for her to find switch in opportunities. Of course I'm not saying she is bad. In fact Ogerpon-W is quite the good Pokemon. Just not broken, and really worthy of a suspect imo.

Sorry status? There ain't no faster status using pokemon in OU outside Dragapult and Darkrai (who sure ain't switching in). What pokemon is able to status it before it blows them up? It's not hard to get switch in opportunities with all the Gliscor, Mola, LandoT, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, Garganacl, Primarina and the like. It also doesn't even need to set up all the time, as unless there are extremely fat targets it needs the +2 on, it can simply wail away on slower teams with attacks as unboosted, it still hits very hard.

 

[DYM]

Ehhhhh.... Zama is probably the best of those offensive checks simply because it is so naturally physically bulky but it takes just one crit and it's no longer a good switch in. This is especially nasty if it happens on the first switch in, and if Zama burned its +1 from Dauntless earlier then it isn't too reliable a switch in more than once or twice (and if a crit occurs, only once). This also applies to Grasspon and Dragapult, the latter being especially screwed if it gets nailed by Play Rough or Knock Off instead of a stab move. Of course they're still good short term options, as good as you're gonna get for offensive counterplay anyways for Balance teams but those teams still need a backbone that doesn't crumple under it because they're can't rely on just one offensive check like those three.



Sorry but this is just full flat out wrong. I'm not sure what tournament replays you've been watching, but you cannot ignore it in the builder especially for balance and bulkier teams. That's one of the most foolish decisions you could make when building balance especially because it flattens them.



That's not how it works? Teams running those are obviously carrying answers to Wellspring so they can still run these great pokemon. It's more a testament to how excellent they are that they're still able to thrive in spite of its presence. But those teams are having to go to specific lengths to actually cover for it, as standard SD+Stabs+PR doesn't really have much in the way of defensive answers (I miss Ferrothorn btw).

Wellspring is 100% centralizing and very much for bulkier teams.



Sorry status? There ain't no faster status using pokemon in OU outside Dragapult and Darkrai (who sure ain't switching in). What pokemon is able to status it before it blows them up? It's not hard to get switch in opportunities with all the Gliscor, Mola, LandoT, Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, Garganacl, Primarina and the like. It also doesn't even need to set up all the time, as unless there are extremely fat targets it needs the +2 on, it can simply wail away on slower teams with attacks as unboosted, it still hits very hard.

Yeah, this is true.

 

[Nefarious 2.0]

Yeah, this is true.

Yeah, this is true.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

I’ve heard some ppl say that if waterpon gets banned ppl will just mindlessly spam Gliscor Garg cores

 

[RS25802580]

Booster Energy ban from a tiering perspective seems quite finnicky to implement since not all Paradox Pokemon are even relevant to the OU tier, let alone broken. In addition, none of the good paradox Pokemon in OU are particularly overwhelming besides Roaring Moon depending on the matchup. The item can feel overcentralizing and definitely messes with how speed tiers work within SV OU but those feelings on my end from objective analysis, are more opinionated than yknow an actual problem in the metagame. Booster Energy is fine albeit widely thought to be a bit over-tuned for an item and kind of a nuisance but it doesn't mean it needs a ban. We have had annoying things in metagames before like Toxapex in 8, Gliscor and Mega Mawile in 7, not everything has to be fun or feel additive to the metagame. Sometimes a bit of friction adds to a metagames uniqueness which I don't think is a bad thing so long as it doesn't ruin the competitive integrity of the metagame.

Good points and I agree. I personally haven’t had too many issues facing the booster abusers and even some of the stronger speed boosters like Moth and Valiant feel fairly balanced. Speed booster has somewhat displaced the viability of many scarfers but I don’t think it’s a bad thing, just different.

I’ve heard some ppl say that if waterpon gets banned ppl will just mindlessly spam Gliscor Garg cores

Not really a concern since suspects evaluate one mon at a time. It’s kind of fruitless to speculate on these hypotheticals.