Metagame Metagame Discussion

[Colin]

I actually enjoy the meta a lot, and consider it much more skillful than many early iterations of SV and modern SWSH. Its far from perfect, but some of the tiering action proposed I think either isn't necessary or would be harmful.

- I think during the Gastly meta Shellder was broken, but its easy enough to counter with Pokemon/cores such as Slow Mienfoo + Stunky, Mareanie, Snubbul, and tera mons, and its also a lot harder to position this meta with memento since Mudbray frequently run roar, neutralizing memento Stunky/Glimmet + Shellder from working vs most teams since they either already stopped that or now have the option to do that w/o making predictions. Shellder is pretty much forced to run Substitute or Tera Fairy or else its favored to lose to preview vs Stunky and Pawniard, and those options are limiting.

- Gothita is borderline at least, I think it and Voltorb-hisui enable each other too easily. Its not without major exploitable flaws though, it has to get in on its targets to trap them, and its team has to be healthy enough to withstand punishes from dark types and Growlithe-Hisui. Its also overrated vs Mienfoo, unless it can get it in range even if it terastalizes into a neutral tera type such as dragon, which also slows down Voltorb-Hisui a lot and potentially Growlithe-Hisui if you have Head Smash switch ins. Its still a very restrictive presence vs Foongus and Mareanie especially, making them much harder to load.

- Choice Scarf Growlithe-hisui plays a very linear game. It wants to tera fire and click Flare Blitz, so every team needs at least one fire resist and options to tera into a fire resist. Rock resists are also critical, but Mienfoo is really good at this so its less problematic in the builder. Toedscool is genuinely great, but its the only good removal right now and it gives openings to Vullaby especially, making its opponent's offensive pressure more dangerous. Without removal, its on a short timer especially if the opposing team has priority.

- Also borderline, it synergizes with Gothita way too well and it always gets a lot of value. If Mienfoo gets knocked it becomes way too good, and its the best speed control in the tier that also has the bulk to take a hit or two.

-Very healthy Pokemon for the tier. Mostly, it shares defensive answers with Vullaby in Mudbray and Glimmet (not a good switch in but it forces stunky into uncomfortable predictions after a mud shot), but it can also be answered by opposing Vullaby, Mareanie, and depending on moveset Steel Types. Its really good at trading, but not unreasonably so, and Sucker Punch allows it to be a really good glue. Shellder would probably be a lot more broken if it didn't have to deal with Stunky's presence in the builder. Its also an offensive threat that doesn't care about Gothita at all, which is a really good utility to have.

SV LC isn't perfect right now, but I've had a lot of fun building and playing this meta, and consider it a better and more diverse metagame than the SCL metagame. More lower tier Pokemon are good, which means more options in the builder generally. Gothita + Voltorb take away a lot of options too, so I am not against a suspect test and may vote ban. SV LC has been a lot worse at times, s/o double trapper webs meta and pre gastly ban. I also think that until SWSH LC gets fixed it should be axed from LC team tournaments and replaced with ADV LC. Tier Locks aren't likely to be binding in playoffs so unless I threaten to cancer I am likely to be forced in LCPL playoffs swsh LC, which seriously is making me consider not signing up. Axe SWSH LC from lcpl or at least make any potential tier locks have the option to be fully binding in playoffs

 

[Hacker]

I wholeheartedly agree with Scottie and think the metagame right now isnt in its best shape it could be in and think we can easily improve it.

The metagame right now definently has a few problems, but right now for me what I think the biggest problems are and

To start with Gothita I guess, Scottie summarized it up pretty nicely. Every team needs all of the following

• A Mienfoo check
• Hisuian Growlithe resists
• A Hisuian Voltorb check

Incidentally, some of the best options for these mons are all weak to Gothita. Every Mienfoo answer gets trapped easily with no problem by Gothita. "Well Vullaby is a good Mienfoo check." You will lose to Choice Scarf Reckless HJK on preview as seen in these games. Even then, while playing around even just normal Pivot Mienfoo you can't even use something like Mareanie as a fight resist to safely pivot into it. The options for Hisuian Growlithe answers are basically defensive Tera's, Mareanie, Glimmet, and Mienfoo depending on what move you are trying to resist or just trying to regen and pivot it off. Having to use your defensive Tera for something is always a flawed concept for me because theres always a chance you want your tera for something like Shellder that your opponent could theoretically have. And if you drop your fire resist you just get games like these where the opponent can just Flare Blitz through everything unpunished. Elfu didn't really even try to prep for it defensively with his team but it was still able to just easily overwhelm him despite him seeming being able to check it offensively with 2 Fighting types. But also good luck pivoting around this thing without the risk of your Fire or Rock resist just getting trapped or being forced to tera (which even then say Mienfoo tera steels to avoid getting trapped by Gothita you just drop to Flare Blitz lol.) Hisuian Voltorb answers are pretty similar in play with how your best odds really are just pivoting around it and hoping all goes well. As for options on your team that just don't get immediately folded by Thunderbolt and Giga Drain the list of viable options you can use to attempt to switch into it are

• 13 SpDef Mienfoo
• Foongus
• Toedscool
• Eviolite Grookey

And thats just what theoretically checks Eviolite sets. All of these guys get smoked by the Life Orb set or just getting 2 shot easily by Tera Blast if you commit Tera on it. Alongside that, 13 SpDef Mienfoo and Foongus both can just get trapped by Gothita as seen in this game which coincidentally shows that both Hisuian Growlithe and Hisuian Voltorb are both actually just uncheckable monsters as long as Gothita is around where you just have to flip a coin to check them and hope you get it right.

Most of my issues with both Hisuian Voltorb and Hisuian Growlithe are just shown above by me just complaining about Gothita. And I think getting rid of Gothita is a good first step into making this tier more fun while also just getting rid of the unhealthy element that is Shadow Tag to begin with. Theres a reason every other single current gen tier bans it.

TLDR both Hisuian Voltorb and Hisuian Growlithe answers just get smoked by Gothita

So, about Shellder

I think the ability to Tera into whatever type you want to on shellder to just pick and choose what you want to setup on with Shellder conceptually is broken, however every random defensive Tera you give it to accomplish that comes with its own set of cons. If you have a defensive Tera, the biggest drawback you'll get with it really is that you won't be able to KO a few things that live hits from you such as 15 Defense Mienfoo, Mareanie and Pawniard. However, alongside that you can never really be sure if your Shellder is going to win or not at the same time because you know very well your opponent could also be a defensive Tera that randomly owns you or is something like Mudbray that if its Tera Water will always just be able to beat you anyways. HO right now is an inconsistent at best playstyle rn IMO so I don't particularly see the point on commenting on Shellder there, so afaik most peoples concerns with Shellder come from Shellder on Balance / BO type team structures. And I have to say, I have never really struggled with Shellder on those teamstyles ever. They are very often just playing hoping that Shellder will be able to beat your team but in reality if they have even one or two priority users the team just folds. I mentioned Grookey earlier on in this post and I think its a great meta choice right now because you get to switch into a few mons that are particularly challenging to switch into such as Hisuian Voltorb and Mudbray, but at the same time it offers a great tool in Grassy Glide to be able to deal with Shellder. Even in Grookeys worst matchups, it can still give you some form of value. I'm not saying you should be running Grookey on every team, but I am saying that there are tons of excellent priority options like Stunky, Pawniard, and Grookey. And thats not even mentioning Fake Out on Mienfoo to pick it off if its weakened. Theres a replay above of me just getting smoked by Shellder vs Scottie but in reality I just got outprepped by Weakness Policy Drifloon which put me in a position where I just couldn't win with it being paired with Foongus to dissuade me from clicking Spore instead.

Despite all of that, I don't necesarily oppose a Shellder ban longterm but right now I really think it is the least of our concerns. If we held a suspect test today, I would vote Do Not Ban. I think it brings some value to the current Meta like keeping Hisuian Growlithe in check which is what would currently cause me to vote do not ban on it alongside us having IMO plenty of reasonable responses to it. Even then, outside of HO Shellder just struggles to setup on much at all reliably. It thrived way more during the Gastly meta because it had something that forced all of its would be checks to just get burnt to make them easier to setup on / harder to revenge.

So what is my preferred path of tiering action to make this tier better?
Suspect Gothita and if it passes the ban vote reassess the metagame after it. I also still vote ban on anything besides Shellder and Tera right now though. However, if people don't want to touch Gothita fsr I would be most in favor of a Hisuian Voltorb suspect next.

 

[Acehunter1]

I think of all the aforementioned potential suspect candidates, I would support a Voltorb-Hisui suspect the most. While not as offensively explosive as Shellder or Growlithe-Hisui, I think its Speed, its favorable matchup against most Ground types, and its access to Volt Switch to maintain momentum make it really oppressive for the metagame.

I think it's very telling when some of the best checks to Voltorb-Hisui are Pokemon which have a neutral typing matchup (ex. Mienfoo, Toedscool, or even worse, Voltorb-Hisui itself). Most Voltorb-Hisui checks don't even gain momentum on it when they get a prediction right. Of all the Voltorb-Hisui checks, only Toedscool can block Volt Switch (discounting Wattrel which is very frail). Therefore, considering its unique Electric/Grass typing, Voltorb-Hisui can click Volt Switch with quasi-impunity, since most opposing Ground types lose to it and therefore need to do very risky predictions to deny that free switch. In comparison, if Growlithe-Hisui fires off a hit, it will often need to manually switch out the following turn, which can lose momentum.

While Volt Switch might not do that much damage to resisted hits, it's still a STAB pivot move. In comparison, U-Turn from pivots like Mienfoo don't hit very hard, while Larvesta has a hard-hitting STAB U-Turn but is hindered by a weakness to hazards. Both also can be outsped and offensively pressured by other threats, while due to facing a 20-Speed pivot, the only offensive checks to Voltorb-H are Choice Scarf users (excluding First Impression users due to Protect), which is quite restrictive.

In regards to other suspect candidates: I'm not opposed to a Shellder suspect, since while I haven't seen it as overbearing yet, I can get the reasoning. I don't think we're at the point of suspecting Growlithe-Hisui for now, but it could be a candidate in the future. However, I don't think a Gothita suspect is pertinent, since I have no reason to believe it is broken, but rather, it is the lack of solid Voltorb-Hisui checks and Voltorb-Hisui's pivot ability that make Gothita seem too good as an enabler. Therefore, I think that Voltorb-Hisui is the Pokemon that needs to go the most, and would advocate for its ban.

 

[Fille]

I love that we're pushing the metagame forward, but I'm a bit worried about the amount of bans we've gone through recently, and the pace we're on to banning even more mons. I've previously expressed some concern over that possibility, albeit I did not think it likely that we would come to this point where so many of the new tools we were given this gen are on the slate. I would like to propose what I deem to be the best course of action as a result, one that not only limits the amount of bans needed to fix the metagame and hopefully open up for some diversity again, but one that keeps many of the core mons in the current metagame intact and preserves their identity and value.

First of all I want to preface my discussion by agreeing to ban Gothita. I think Hacker and Scottie sums it up rather well, it doesn't bring anything of benefit to the tier in the way it's being used, and only serves to break mons that may not even be problematic otherwise. I'm not inherently against trapping as a concept, but we're closing in on an SM Trapinch+Vull situation where, despite only trapping a few niche things, Trapinch just did that so exceedingly well that it enabled not only at the time the best mon in the tier, but a bunch of other high profile sweepers to the point where games just came to who traps what first and then wins. Goth kinda is that now for mainly Torb + Foo, and while definitely not to the same extent, it's equally frustrating to play into. I also think there can be some other net benefits from removing Gothita, at least coupled with a Tera ban.

So Terastalizing.

1. Banning Terastalising Would Solve Every Mon Up for Discussion at This Moment.

With the exception of Gothita.

Voltorb-H now has no way to cheese through Mienfoo / Foongus / Grookey / Toedscool with the right tera, leaving plenty 100% foolproof counterplay that actually requires solid maneuvering and positioning to get around, rather than click Tera at the right turn. I can ofcourse understand why this would be unpreferable to some offensive players, but at that point just don't use Voltorb anymore. Gothita would again be an issue here tho, but I'm mainly arguing we get rid of Gothita first regardless.

Shellder obviously becomes a non-issue without Tera, as every problem Scottie raised with it vanishes. Foo is still great, Mare still exists, there's no random tera out of Sucker from Pawn/Stunky, 1 of which it can't get through anymore for free, and 4mss with Icicle/Rblast/Liqui/Tect and ig even Sub at this point is likely to keep it at bay properly. Bonus points to people running Tinkatink and just saying fuck you to everything Shellder does. Goth could enable somewhat, but like again ban Goth lol. Hacker also again mentioned some good dynamics within the tier involving Shellder.

Growlithe-H, while not many people are pushing for a suspect or a ban, has been mentioned. Its linearity becomes even more evident if Tera is banned, as now you can't brute force your way through some Mienfoo cores and Mudbray with just a terafire, but at the same time counterplay does actually become a little more limited as this was a mon that you always knew what clicked, and no terablast would ever really throw you off guard. Not getting swept by random Flame Charges could be nice though. Regardless, I think without the terafire and Gothita, counterplay like Mareanie, Shellder, Mienfoo and Mudbray suffers a lot less and can hence lead to more elongated games that Growlithe is more likely to lose in.

Stunky being brought up by Scottie felt a bit odd though, and I think this is the one case where *if* it is to be considered broken, Tera might play the smallest role here. On paper, STAB Knock Off from something that outspeeds 95% of the metagame is indeed plausibly problematic with how spammable it is and how it forces progress almost guaranteed bar facing Tink, as nothing wants to get its item knocked off. However, We have some very good switch-ins to it as others have mentioned above, and again even stuff like Glimmet can theoretically be problematic to Stunky again. TeraDark is annoying to shit like Mareanie for certain, but Taunt on Evio is moreso problematic in most cases. I've never really considered this mon for any discussion, and don't think I wanna make much of a case on it as a result, but felt it deserved to be mentioned regardless since Scottie brought it up.

2. Removes Cheese Strategies that Steals the Late-Game, While Providing Value to Mons Outside the Top 10

Part 2 of this is somewhat speculative, but part 1 is fairly simple. No one is gonna steal the game away late-game for free with a random Tera on a Crit-Me-Not Solosis or Chingling. Leaves more room for the best player to win the match, not the one with the best Cheese in the back. As for part 2, giving a degree of certainty to niche options, it means that now you can actually get away with trying something like Turtwig to clean up vs someone who never brings Foongus, or bring that niche mon you think can give you a surprise KO on a big mon like Mienfoo/Vullaby/Voltorb early-game. There's not room anymore for them just Teraing out of that matchup to just be up 6 good mons vs 5 and a junk mon that serves no purpose anymore, without it ever getting the chance to shine. Essentially, there's more value in diversifying the mons in your builder now, rather than just bringing a different Tera than you normally would out of the 3-5 relevant ones.

3. Banning Terastalizing Provides an Opportunity to Free Previously Banned Mons

While not a neccessity to keep the metagame growing, Tera was the nail in the coffin for many of the early DLC-2 bans, like Scraggy and Snivy (Along with Gothita), as well as Porygon. Banning Tera would give us an opportunity to, if we so desire, free some of these previously banned mons to further bolster our roster of potentially viable mons, without neccesarily breaking the meta apart. Again, this is not a neccessity and doesn't have to be a priority by any means, and there are still chances something like Scraggy or Porygon would still be broken even without Tera, but the option is there.

4. Essentially This Entire Post

For those of you who haven't read yet, I'll just sum up the most important parts.

1. Offensive Tera has more value than defensive Tera, an offensive Tera is generally built around to be used specifically like that, one does not lose any defensive utility, whereas most defensive Teras that can function as a reaction to these will generally hinder the mon from functioning in its original (and for many bulky mons, vital) role. See Tera Foongus (Steel/Water/Ghost/Dragon), Mienfoo (Steel/Water), Mareanie (Dragon).

2. Unpredictability. "You can gauge" is speculative, and while you can definitely narrow down, fact still remains that there is never just 1 good tera type for any mon, it all depends on the builder and what they prefer. See Wail example vs Eric, a high level performance where Wail has logically narrowed down to the most likely ones and it's still a 5050 and still gets it wrong because Eric had found a solution that fit him even better.

3. While a broader meta often is fun in terms of the amount of mons you can use, it makes for a worse building experience when trying to win as consistently as possible. While a too narrow meta isn't fun again, even without tera we've historically had pretty diverse metas with 20+ viable mons and multiple sets for them all, but as mentioned in point 2, adjusting for these 20+ mons with 40+ sets is already hard, having to account for 99+ type combinations for all of them is more or less impossible. I prefer a meta where skill in the builder and skill in the match should hold similar value, but with this much to cover you'll have to roll a dice regardless of your building and playing skills.​

Tl;dr banning Gothita + Tera is not only the likely least ban-heavy route to fix the current metagame and solve its current issues, it allows us to potentially free up not only hidden gems that might have viable reasons to be ran, but also free up previously banned mons that are likely to be a healthy addition to the current metagame. Banning Tera also removes unwarranted amounts of variance from matches that can't be properly gauged on preview or through information gained within the match, and the already skewered power between offensive and defensive teras will be removed.

 

[Colin]

I love that we're pushing the metagame forward, but I'm a bit worried about the amount of bans we've gone through recently, and the pace we're on to banning even more mons. I've previously expressed some concern over that possibility, albeit I did not think it likely that we would come to this point where so many of the new tools we were given this gen are on the slate. I would like to propose what I deem to be the best course of action as a result, one that not only limits the amount of bans needed to fix the metagame and hopefully open up for some diversity again, but one that keeps many of the core mons in the current metagame intact and preserves their identity and value.

First of all I want to preface my discussion by agreeing to ban Gothita. I think Hacker and Scottie sums it up rather well, it doesn't bring anything of benefit to the tier in the way it's being used, and only serves to break mons that may not even be problematic otherwise. I'm not inherently against trapping as a concept, but we're closing in on an SM Trapinch+Vull situation where, despite only trapping a few niche things, Trapinch just did that so exceedingly well that it enabled not only at the time the best mon in the tier, but a bunch of other high profile sweepers to the point where games just came to who traps what first and then wins. Goth kinda is that now for mainly Torb + Foo, and while definitely not to the same extent, it's equally frustrating to play into. I also think there can be some other net benefits from removing Gothita, at least coupled with a Tera ban.

So Terastalizing.

1. Banning Terastalising Would Solve Every Mon Up for Discussion at This Moment.

With the exception of Gothita.

Voltorb-H now has no way to cheese through Mienfoo / Foongus / Grookey / Toedscool with the right tera, leaving plenty 100% foolproof counterplay that actually requires solid maneuvering and positioning to get around, rather than click Tera at the right turn. I can ofcourse understand why this would be unpreferable to some offensive players, but at that point just don't use Voltorb anymore. Gothita would again be an issue here tho, but I'm mainly arguing we get rid of Gothita first regardless.

Shellder obviously becomes a non-issue without Tera, as every problem Scottie raised with it vanishes. Foo is still great, Mare still exists, there's no random tera out of Sucker from Pawn/Stunky, 1 of which it can't get through anymore for free, and 4mss with Icicle/Rblast/Liqui/Tect and ig even Sub at this point is likely to keep it at bay properly. Bonus points to people running Tinkatink and just saying fuck you to everything Shellder does. Goth could enable somewhat, but like again ban Goth lol. Hacker also again mentioned some good dynamics within the tier involving Shellder.

Growlithe-H, while not many people are pushing for a suspect or a ban, has been mentioned. Its linearity becomes even more evident if Tera is banned, as now you can't brute force your way through some Mienfoo cores and Mudbray with just a terafire, but at the same time counterplay does actually become a little more limited as this was a mon that you always knew what clicked, and no terablast would ever really throw you off guard. Not getting swept by random Flame Charges could be nice though. Regardless, I think without the terafire and Gothita, counterplay like Mareanie, Shellder, Mienfoo and Mudbray suffers a lot less and can hence lead to more elongated games that Growlithe is more likely to lose in.

Stunky being brought up by Scottie felt a bit odd though, and I think this is the one case where *if* it is to be considered broken, Tera might play the smallest role here. On paper, STAB Knock Off from something that outspeeds 95% of the metagame is indeed plausibly problematic with how spammable it is and how it forces progress almost guaranteed bar facing Tink, as nothing wants to get its item knocked off. However, We have some very good switch-ins to it as others have mentioned above, and again even stuff like Glimmet can theoretically be problematic to Stunky again. TeraDark is annoying to shit like Mareanie for certain, but Taunt on Evio is moreso problematic in most cases. I've never really considered this mon for any discussion, and don't think I wanna make much of a case on it as a result, but felt it deserved to be mentioned regardless since Scottie brought it up.

2. Removes Cheese Strategies that Steals the Late-Game, While Providing Value to Mons Outside the Top 10

Part 2 of this is somewhat speculative, but part 1 is fairly simple. No one is gonna steal the game away late-game for free with a random Tera on a Crit-Me-Not Solosis or Chingling. Leaves more room for the best player to win the match, not the one with the best Cheese in the back. As for part 2, giving a degree of certainty to niche options, it means that now you can actually get away with trying something like Turtwig to clean up vs someone who never brings Foongus, or bring that niche mon you think can give you a surprise KO on a big mon like Mienfoo/Vullaby/Voltorb early-game. There's not room anymore for them just Teraing out of that matchup to just be up 6 good mons vs 5 and a junk mon that serves no purpose anymore, without it ever getting the chance to shine. Essentially, there's more value in diversifying the mons in your builder now, rather than just bringing a different Tera than you normally would out of the 3-5 relevant ones.

3. Banning Terastalizing Provides an Opportunity to Free Previously Banned Mons

While not a neccessity to keep the metagame growing, Tera was the nail in the coffin for many of the early DLC-2 bans, like Scraggy and Snivy (Along with Gothita), as well as Porygon. Banning Tera would give us an opportunity to, if we so desire, free some of these previously banned mons to further bolster our roster of potentially viable mons, without neccesarily breaking the meta apart. Again, this is not a neccessity and doesn't have to be a priority by any means, and there are still chances something like Scraggy or Porygon would still be broken even without Tera, but the option is there.

4. Essentially This Entire Post

For those of you who haven't read yet, I'll just sum up the most important parts.

1. Offensive Tera has more value than defensive Tera, an offensive Tera is generally built around to be used specifically like that, one does not lose any defensive utility, whereas most defensive Teras that can function as a reaction to these will generally hinder the mon from functioning in its original (and for many bulky mons, vital) role. See Tera Foongus (Steel/Water/Ghost/Dragon), Mienfoo (Steel/Water), Mareanie (Dragon).

2. Unpredictability. "You can gauge" is speculative, and while you can definitely narrow down, fact still remains that there is never just 1 good tera type for any mon, it all depends on the builder and what they prefer. See Wail example vs Eric, a high level performance where Wail has logically narrowed down to the most likely ones and it's still a 5050 and still gets it wrong because Eric had found a solution that fit him even better.

3. While a broader meta often is fun in terms of the amount of mons you can use, it makes for a worse building experience when trying to win as consistently as possible. While a too narrow meta isn't fun again, even without tera we've historically had pretty diverse metas with 20+ viable mons and multiple sets for them all, but as mentioned in point 2, adjusting for these 20+ mons with 40+ sets is already hard, having to account for 99+ type combinations for all of them is more or less impossible. I prefer a meta where skill in the builder and skill in the match should hold similar value, but with this much to cover you'll have to roll a dice regardless of your building and playing skills.​

Tl;dr banning Gothita + Tera is not only the likely least ban-heavy route to fix the current metagame and solve its current issues, it allows us to potentially free up not only hidden gems that might have viable reasons to be ran, but also free up previously banned mons that are likely to be a healthy addition to the current metagame. Banning Tera also removes unwarranted amounts of variance from matches that can't be properly gauged on preview or through information gained within the match, and the already skewered power between offensive and defensive teras will be removed.

Throughout much of SV LC, I thought tera was a negative presence. However, I think Terastalization makes the current meta more skillful to play and diversifies the tier, while with a few exceptions not being broken at all. Those exceptions are Voltorb-hisui, Shellder, and Growlithe-Hisui. Shellder with tera for sure causes the most 50/50's with Terastalization based on whether its teched to beat Mienfoo, increase its power, or other stuff. Voltorb-Hisui is a more immediate breaker with Terastalization, but I don't consider it the main reason why it is potentially overbearing for the tier, as the best types in Fire and Ice become stealth rock weak and if eviolite don't immediately ohko stuff. Growlithe-Hisui both needs tera fire to chew through Mienfoo and soft resists quickly, but also loathes defensive tera giving you more tools to beat it and force a KO. For the rest of the tier, I consider Terastalization a skillful mechanic that increases the options in the teambuilder and gives more depth to battles.

Gothita + Voltorb core is either broken or close to it, but I still believe Gothita brings positives to the tier (if its broken ban it anyway though). I consider it very manageable if you use Pokemon and sets such as Tera Dragon Mienfoo that can both handle Voltorb-hisui and Gothita, or you fit pokemon that punish gothita off of a trap such as SD Pawniard, Growlithe-hisui, Diglett-alola, and more. It can also run into uncomfortable situations where it cannot risk trapping something that can tera on it if it is still needed to trap something else later in the game, making it much less effective as a revenge killer. Even teams that are weak to Gothita usually have ways to outplay it with Pokemon such as Vullaby, which can be used to check a chipped Mienfoo in an emergency so you don't have to send Foongus/etc into the trap.

I instead consider Voltorb-hisui, with or without tera, the main culprit in this core being overwhelming, since vs most teams Voltorb simply does not provide much safe entry for opposing offense due to its incredible speed tier coupled with its bulk and lack of scarf, nor can it be outplayed to prevent it from making progress since volt switch is unblockable for most teams lacking a Numel. Gothita just speeds up this process a lot, since it can exploit a lot of the near inevitable progress that Voltorb makes. Voltorb's own tera can punish most defensive teras that may be used vs Gothita, as if Mienfoo tera steels then it can use Terablast fire and have this be a likely positive/even exchange for the Gothita team. Tera Dragon Mienfoo is a harder matchup, but Voltorb can tech it with Tera Ice. Vs faster choice scarfers, it can even slot protect, making them somewhat unreliable at making progress when revenge killing Voltorb. Voltorb does not need Gothita, as anything to enter on a volt switch into Foongus/Mienfoo can create just as reliable an offensive core.

 

[Fille]

Throughout much of SV LC, I thought tera was a negative presence. However, I think Terastalization makes the current meta more skillful to play and diversifies the tier, while with a few exceptions not being broken at all. Those exceptions are Voltorb-hisui, Shellder, and Growlithe-Hisui. Shellder with tera for sure causes the most 50/50's with Terastalization based on whether its teched to beat Mienfoo, increase its power, or other stuff. Voltorb-Hisui is a more immediate breaker with Terastalization, but I don't consider it the main reason why it is potentially overbearing for the tier, as the best types in Fire and Ice become stealth rock weak and if eviolite don't immediately ohko stuff. Growlithe-Hisui both needs tera fire to chew through Mienfoo and soft resists quickly, but also loathes defensive tera giving you more tools to beat it and force a KO. For the rest of the tier, I consider Terastalization a skillful mechanic that increases the options in the teambuilder and gives more depth to battles.

Lovely point of view, I too thoroughly do enjoy Tera at the moment, and I have since the moment I started playing SV. Howeer, as you do mention, there are a couple exceptions where it is just broken. You then go on to mention one of the best Pivots in the tier, as well as two of the biggest powerhouses we have for explosive breaking. See, my problem with just listing them, is that they're the case we're looking at right now, in the current meta with the current bans. Neither of them were considered broken even with Tera 3 bans ago, at that point there were 3 other mons that were considered broken with Tera. The trend we've seen continuously throughout the entire gen is that Tera actively breaks the top offensive mons in the tier, and there is no reason to believe that trend is dying down by getting rid of or changing these 3 in any way.

Tera has, for what it's worth, not been considered overbearing on any passive mons, but it does add inconsistency in gameplanning, and while I do agree that is a fun skill to develop, it's frustrating to end up playing the better game than your opponent but losing to something you could not possibly deduce from either preview or information gathered throughout the match.

Essentially if we continue to just finetune away things that could be alright in the metagame but aren't just because we don't want to get rid of the actual mechanic that breaks these mons, we'll end up getting Swsh 2.0 but with Tera. As previously mentioned, I do not want to play another metagame where the top breaker and offensive threat in the tier is a bulky pivot Mienfoo.

Gothita + Voltorb core is either broken or close to it, but I still believe Gothita brings positives to the tier (if its broken ban it anyway though). I consider it very manageable if you use Pokemon and sets such as Tera Dragon Mienfoo that can both handle Voltorb-hisui and Gothita, or you fit pokemon that punish gothita off of a trap such as SD Pawniard, Growlithe-hisui, Diglett-alola, and more. It can also run into uncomfortable situations where it cannot risk trapping something that can tera on it if it is still needed to trap something else later in the game, making it much less effective as a revenge killer. Even teams that are weak to Gothita usually have ways to outplay it with Pokemon such as Vullaby, which can be used to check a chipped Mienfoo in an emergency so you don't have to send Foongus/etc into the trap.

How many of these are likely to get a trade kill to punish a Goth trap? You don't trap with Goth unless you get a kill, punishing doesn't mean you'll get that value back. At this point it's more of a Pro or Anti-Trap discussion, and as mentioned I do not neccesarily consider trapping a negative part of the game, it's moreso just how efficiently it traps the few key mons that allows something like Voltorb, Mienfoo, Growlithe or Shellder to pop off with almost no drawback other than taking a knock off with your Vull check / Mareanie is what makes not even Gothita itself overbearing, but the threats it enables as you so keenly put in the next paragraph.

I instead consider Voltorb-hisui, with or without tera, the main culprit in this core being overwhelming, since vs most teams Voltorb simply does not provide much safe entry for opposing offense due to its incredible speed tier coupled with its bulk and lack of scarf, nor can it be outplayed to prevent it from making progress since volt switch is unblockable for most teams lacking a Numel. Gothita just speeds up this process a lot, since it can exploit a lot of the near inevitable progress that Voltorb makes. Voltorb's own tera can punish most defensive teras that may be used vs Gothita, as if Mienfoo tera steels then it can use Terablast fire and have this be a likely positive/even exchange for the Gothita team. Tera Dragon Mienfoo is a harder matchup, but Voltorb can tech it with Tera Ice. Vs faster choice scarfers, it can even slot protect, making them somewhat unreliable at making progress when revenge killing Voltorb. Voltorb does not need Gothita, as anything to enter on a volt switch into Foongus/Mienfoo can create just as reliable an offensive core.

Yea, but notice how none of this is an issue if we get rid of Tera? If we get rid of Goth? We end up with a perfectly strong, but healthy presence in the metagame, that can vs most teams force a Volt Switch, but also against most team not neccesarily force progress with that Volt Switch. With Goth you do force it, and due to the nature of how Tera warps the stronger mons in the metagame, something I sadly was unable to properly phrase in my 4am post yesterday, Voltorb just ends up being a great Tera abuser with multiple strong options that, as you've just stated, can get the upper hand on even teras that are meant to counter you if they put their money on the wrong tera.

Let's stop banning a new mon every month. Let's stop forcing games where you have to gamble on the opponent not having the right set. Get rid of the root of almost every single problem we've had this gen. Get rid of Terastalizing. Get rid of Gothita. Nothing else will likely ever have to go. So many potential mons could see light in our tier again. It's a fun mechanic. It's not good for a competitive tier where calcs are already as scuffed as they are.

 

[Kipkluif]

Hi my friends, I am once again back to talk about my favourite mechanic: Tera

It shouldnt be news by now, but several metas have past and multiple mainers still have problems with it. This is not isolated to LC either, from teaming in blt, uwc and wcop I know these sentiments play in other tiers as well. I think, as LC, we should make a statement. It reflects on other tiers as well, but even independent to us, we can make a difference.
1. Tera enables glorified guesswork
It should be established by now, but through multiple metas, tera types have not crystsllized, and importanr games are being decided on whether you guess what the opponent is bringing or not. In blt, scarf foo was brought with a defensive tera type, to beat defensive checks instead of offensive checks, which would seem to be in line with its platystyle. The bottom line is that even if you guess reasonsbly, you could be wrong and lose the game for it, and that isnt competitive.
On top of that, people who say you can play around tera might put too much of an emphasis on getting ahead. Yes, its true that if youre winning by a lot, tera doesnt win the game for you. Nevertheless, in a close game between two good players, tera turns overwrite much progress thats beung made over the course of multiple turns on the account of playing well.
I would seriously encourage council to at least publicly engage with the discussion. We know that theres been a discourse at hand, we know all metas so far have suffered under it. Let us at least hear why its being kept intact at this point. Both us whove stayed around in sv and the oldgen HOFers who havent deserve to know why we're doing what we're doing, and then we can work towards making a good metagames for oldgens to pursue for years to come.

 

[tazz]

I couldn't keep up with CG for the first half of the year because of irl stuff, but I'm back now with a newer perspective on meta. Overall, I don't at all understand the doom and gloom, nor do I understand why some of these candidates are even being considered for a suspect. With the exception of one Pokemon I think this meta is mostly fine, but still at an underdeveloped stage. I'll go from least problematic suspect candidate to most problematic:

5. Tera
The arguments for banning tera have not changed since last year, nor have the people making them really. I don't think many are changing their minds on this, so I won't go into actual arguments. I love tera and think it is far preferable to Z moves and the rather boring meta we had without a generational mechanic in SS, so I'd fight hard for its preservation.

4. Gothita

This is the only candidate that just baffles me. Not only do I think Gothita is balanced, I don't think it's particularly good either. If teras are forced it is strong, but that's a huge if, and until that condition is met it is contributing very little to your team's defensive integrity. Once it has trapped something you now have a Pokémon probably locked into a psychic move in a meta where each dark type is one of the most difficult Pokemon to switch into. I also think the removal aspect is highly overrated; in this meta you should already have at least 2 checks (through tera or otherwise) to most Pokemon within every team, so very rarely do you just lose outright unless you're running a shitty team. It has changed very little since scl, and it was balanced then too.

[Gen 9] LC: CDNThe3rd vs. tazz - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)

This is the game Scottie cited as an example of Goth being too good, and I honestly can't tell if we're watching the same game. The only reason that Gothita was more valuable in the mirror than diglett-alola is because of a rock blast miss into a 2 hit. Even afterwards, its cleanup at the end was only possible because of a misclicked tera on my part - a misplay, my own fault. I'd rather have the diglett alola side any day considering it should have won lmao.

[Gen 9] LC: AS Saint Priest vs. CDNThe3rd - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)

This is the other game sometimes cited as evidence of Gothita's brokenness, and again I feel like we aren't watching the same game. I would categorize burning tera turn 1 with both growlithe hisui and scarf gothita on the opposing team as a misplay, and even then ASP had to play well with it to win, which they did (with the very nice early game double). This interaction, weighing if an early tera is worth a pick, has been around for a while now; I've lost many a game failing to justify a questionable early tera, and this game seems an absolute case study of that.

If anyone has more replays of Gothita feel free to send them to me, but all of these arguments thus far simplify complex interaction to make Gothita seem broken; they are very reminiscent of the defunct ban goth movement of ORAS in that way. If anyone can link me replays of Goth being broken as a result of something other than luck or misplays, please send them.

3. Growlithe-Hisui

Again, in this meta I don't see it. Only the scarf set seems particularly good, and it is very limited by its rocks weakness, mareanie+mienfoo cores, random tera dragon mons, and above all the possibility of running into Shellder. The last two in particular moderate the mon completely for me; for Pokemon that don't need a lot of support forcing tera can often be a win for them, but since Growlithe usually needs removal support (not easy in this meta), a tera for a mon the opponent has devoted so much to is usually more than worth it. Shellder matchups are even more annoying for Growlithe considering it is near impossible to prep for consistently, and if you click blitz it is now setting up on you. More on that later.

Even when I'm not running the mons that Growlithe struggles against, there is so much you can do to account for it at the building stage (tect torb, dragon foo, endure vull, the list goes on) that I've never struggled.

2. Voltorb-Hisui

Now I can at least see it, but I don't agree. It's definitely not strong enough to be broken, as it needs to invest tera (on top of chip) to muscle through its primary checks and even then, it's usually not winning outright against a well-built team. The argument I can sympathize with is its more general oppressiveness which seems kinda true, but that feeling is at the moment too ill-defined for me to support any action against at the moment.

Voltorb-Hisui is a Mienfoo/Vullaby type mon that I would only want to examine in a stable metagame, which we are absolutely not in. The current meta has an insane amount of exploration left, and honestly, I think a lot of people are losing in a frustrating way not because the meta is broken but because their teams are bad or outdated. This is to be expected in the gap between the big meta development tours of LCWC and LCPL, so I'd like to wait for LCPL before any potential action on torb.

1. Shellder

Yeah, Scottie is completely right on this one, it's broken and needs to go. I don't think I can really explain why more effectively, but I'd like to mention an experiment I did in the LC room. I asked people to give me teams with "good" Shellder matchups (I banned scarf torb, that's cheating), and was repeatedly given teams that rely on it not being the correct set (stellar or rock usually rocked them) or on winning sub 50/50s for it to not sweep them mid game. Even if Shellder does not win outright, it is usually taking a mon and half at least, so that your other offensive Pokemon just win after! To suspect anything other than Shellder first would be complete insanity to me.

 

[Hacker]

I am strongly opposed to any action on Shellder right now and also coincidentally think it would be insanity to ban Shellder before anything else.

The metagame right now is fine, and while I do think it would be a good amount better if we targetted Hisuian Voltorb down for a suspect test, I think the meta right now is ready for LCPL and am very optimistic about people being able to make developments to help further push this metagame as I do agree it is a tad bit underdeveloped. Which yet again, is another reason that we really shouldn't touch Shellder right now.

I think tazz especially is super wrong about Shellder and how difficult it is to check in the first place. If you are using Shellder, you simply have no actual idea on if you win or not unless your opponent has used Tera yet. You can probably say that it forcing Tera is unhealthy but we seem to be completely fine with that when talking about other mons like Gothita or especially Scarf Foo if you end up deciding to drop your fighting resist in the builder (you really shouldn't as shown in this replay. also notice how Shellder only killed one mon before dying thanks to a good tech in endure vullaby. you can try to argue tazz should have subbed there but why would he do that and put himself into fake out range x.x).

But even besides that, people who are pro Shellder ban also seemingly are able to setup with no problem at all. Lets take a look at the VR for a minute

VR

The list of mons that i would say Shellder can theoretically setup on is as follows: Mienfoo, Vullaby, Hisuian Growlithe, and Drilbur. Thats not exactly the most wide group of mons that you can setup on so I really don't understand how you guys are seemingly able to setup with no problem and sweep your opponents team. Hell, even if you really are paranoid about Shellder being able to setup on you and sweep you at any moment consider running taunt on your Mienfoo or Vullaby sets. Taunt on 17 speed Mienfoo is already common and you really aren't coping if you drop Fake Out ever. I don't even run Taunt on the occasion that I do use Vullaby, but maybe you guys should if you are struggling this much with Shellder. This is a little besides the point but if you are struggling with Shellder maybe consider trying to push the meta further a little bit and run solid anti meta mons that also coincidentally do well into Shellder like Grookey. "Why are you saying I should run Grookey on every team?" Im not. Point being, you guys really are not trying to push the meta forward here and to me look like you are stuck in your ways of loading teams that just lose to Shellder on preview in competitive matches. Idk about you guys but I would also be losing to Shellder if I ran teams like this so I just like, load teams with good forms of priority or speed control and don't struggle at all with Shellder.

Maybe I wouldn't be entirely opposed to any action on Shellder longterm if our banlist grows, but right now I really think that if you ban Shellder you are moving the meta into the wrong direction. Right now I think shellder isn't broken, I don't find it oppressive at all (looking at you holtorb), and think if anything that it is healthy for the meta if anything. Shellder is one of the main things currently keeping Hisuian Growlithe at check (a currently healthy mon for the meta IMO) and I think that voting ban on Shellder could lead to a ripple effect of us eventually needing to ban Hisuian Growlithe because atp one of the main things keeping it in check would be gone. You could say "ok why don't we just ban hisuian growlithe after" but I just can't vote for that in good conscience. At that point we're basically reverting back to the SCL metagame, which while I did find it competitive, I think that our current metagame is better and theres way more room for exploration right now then there was then. So, just why would I want to vote for that when I already don't think Shellder is broken to begin with but it also offers more good to the metagame than harm right now, in my opinion.

TLDR ban HisuTorb or do nothing at all

edit: free aipom

 

[Berks]

Not too much to comment on as I've primarily lurked lately, but this discussion reminds me of previous gens when metas were getting relatively balanced. Lots of good players seem to disagree fundamentally on what is "broken" and what is legit, which is not usually what happens in a meta with a clearly borked mon. It's fun to play!!

 

[Starsama]

I think the meta right now is ready for LCPL and am very optimistic about people being able to make developments to help further push this metagame as I do agree it is a tad bit underdeveloped.

agree with this, i think what we have now is a solid meta and wouldn't mind seeing no action being taken, we have more options in the builder compared to gastly meta and there is decent room for innovation to be found.

if we had to suspect something i think now is a good time to look at tera.

The trend we've seen continuously throughout the entire gen is that Tera actively breaks the top offensive mons in the tier, and there is no reason to believe that trend is dying down by getting rid of or changing these 3 in any way.

and this is the reason, rn i'm very much against the idea of banning any pokemon, all the targets mentioned by other posts (with exception of maybe goth) are good presences and i can't see any of them being broken in a meta without tera, i don't think we'll end up like SS if we ban new stuff every month but it'll most likely be a worse meta than what we have now.
I get that tera adds some skill to the game but a meta without a generational mechanic is just as skill based (see: vullaby SS or ORAS) and removing all the guessing games and volatility that comes with it would be a positive change.

 

[Fille]

The inability to agree on what mon to act upon despite many wanting action on something yet again leaves us with the very simple solution of ban the one thing all these complaints have in common; Tera.

 

[Delta4]

Might be the wrong place for this, but I was wondering if this was a LC dynamic I wasn't familiar with or something. In this game [Gen 9] LC: ConvexLens vs. DeltaWarrior4 - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) on Turn 6 their Shellder moves before my Toedscruel even tho I am max speed Toedscruel and I have a Rapid Spin speed boost, how is this possible? Was it a bug or am I missing something?

 

[Hacker]

Might be the wrong place for this, but I was wondering if this was a LC dynamic I wasn't familiar with or something. In this game [Gen 9] LC: ConvexLens vs. DeltaWarrior4 - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) on Turn 6 their Shellder moves before my Toedscruel even tho I am max speed Toedscruel and I have a Rapid Spin speed boost, how is this possible? Was it a bug or am I missing something?

you clicked a status/support move and toedscools ability gives them negative prio

 

[ToluTTT]

Hi y'all!

Relatively new to Gen 9 LC because I played a lifetime's worth of LC in Gen 8. In the few games I've been playing, Wattrel seems to be the only genuine check to voltorb hisui. Everything is a kinda check, but voltob's coverage+speed+decent bulk meaning it doesn't die to a stray sucker punch is kind of insane, no?
I could also be wrong and maybe there are checks, but even something bulky like Todescool seems like it would be food to a tera fire/ice or just repeatedly switching into giga drain+rocks/spikes.

 

[tko]

I'm glad players I respect such as Scottie, Colin, Hacker, tazz, etc. have decided to speak up about the state of the metagame. I just wanted to publicize my support for some changes. Really, I would just like to see a playable metagame before the time SCL rolls around this year. I don't have much unique perspectives to add here, but I wanted to put support in for the mons I find banworthy: Voltorb-H (uncompetitive), Gothita(uncompetitive), and Shellder(broken). I prefer a Voltorb suspect the most, but all 3 feel problematic to me. For the record, I don't mind stale metagames. If I need "a Mienfoo check, Hisuian Growlithe resists, and a Hisuian Voltorb check," I wouldn't find this the end of the world if I thought these Pokemon were not uncompetitive. I wouldn't even care if a tier only had 6 viable Pokemon. Since council is adamant against making a decision I won't entertain the idea that Fille proposed (sorry bro :().

Voltorb H I feel is uncompetitive for the reaons Hacker and Acehunter went and explained already. There aren't really counters, it can volt switch out on checks (also in part due to its speed), it has the best speed, and is one of the best abusers of tera. It's difficult to play around when electric immunes such as Toedscool will get chunked by Giga drain once and then struggles to switch into torb in a later interaction. If you don't use something like tera chinchou then torb will just volt and giga all over your team, and one well timed tera will be enough to snipe your Toeds or Foongus or own Voltorb so that it can proceed in the rest of the game volting and giga draining with minimal team support. I would say that it is oppresive and the gameplay it forces is in line with "uncompetitive" aspect of tiering philosphy in smogon's tiering policy framework: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/. I have felt this way since scl and honestly this meta is not far off from that meta in my opinion, and I feel like this meta is more stabilized than some may believe.

Goth feels uncompetitive for similar reasons to Voltorb with different execution (via its ability). Shadow tag takes away player autonomy by design, which seems to be in line with the definition of something uncompetitive. But, does gothita's stats or reliance on choice scarf make this a big issue? Well, that seems to be where there's a difference in opinions between tazz vs scottier or hacker, at least. It's true that in some games, it seems like goth won't do much, but if the opponent isn't using a team weak to goth then I feel like it has already done its job, as it's convinced a player not to run mienfoo or foongus. Either you're minimizing the viable pool of pokemon someone is likely to use, or you're minimizing a player's choices when goth traps something during the battle. I feel like tera + scarf is just enough to nudge goth into falling under the definition of uncompetitive given these traits that might be harder to see if looking at team preview.

Shellder I think is broken (once again as defined in the tiering policy framework). It has too many viable teras. All of its offensive moves are viable choices and can be tailor made to fit on different styles of teams. Sub can fish out teras and helps against priority. Protect can do the same. It can win games with one turn of setting up, and if it doesn't, it should at least find a way to get a ko and dent something else. There are too many easy opportunities for a less skilled player to set up a shellder sweep against someone who has a good team and is playing to the best of their ability. I think both tazz and scottie hit the mark with this.

Well, it seems like there's general agreement that this metagame could use some fixes. The only issue is that we have a lot of valuable players that don't agree on what is the first banworthy element. I hope the council can propose something soon that is in line with the tiering policy of smogon (mainly, I. To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time), because I feel like some combination of these 3 are preventing this from being true. Hopefully this isn't a bunch of word jargon; I haven't cared to write a metagame discussion post since 2015, and wrote this in a jiffy, but I really couldn't care less about this current meta right now and want change. I usually don't care to write these posts because of past experiences dealing with councils, but I think there are clear issues here that can be fixed before scl rolls around and I have hope that more than some people see it too.

 

[Kipkluif]

5. Tera
The arguments for banning tera have not changed since last year, nor have the people making them really. I don't think many are changing their minds on this, so I won't go into actual arguments. I love tera and think it is far preferable to Z moves and the rather boring meta we had without a generational mechanic in SS, so I'd fight hard for its preservation.

Gonna reply to this cause it's been bothering me and I cant help myself. The arguments for tera haven't changed is untrue, multiple people have been bringing up a bunch of different reasons. The arguments that haven't changed have not done so because the same problems keep showing up across all metas, because the mechanic is fundamentally problematic. I have no idea what Z moves have to do with anything, and pretending metas need a generational mechanic or else they're boring is ridiculous. ORAS LC doesn't have a gimmick and it's doing just fine. If the implication is that SV would be like SS without tera, that also doesn't hold up in the slightest, as there's different pokemon (glimmet, toedscool, growlithe-h), different pokemon missing (abra, ferroseed), changes in movesets (stunky, pawniard), no berry juice, and many other things. Dynamics are completely different, please stop bringing this up as a point in favor of tera.

 

[Kowasabii]

July tier shift usage stats have been released and this past shift 5 (almost 6) mons have 30% usage in LC, with the holy trio of mienfoo, voltorb-h and vullaby having over 50% each. I know theres been a lot of talks about different things contributing to staleness such as the big 3, shellder, tera, etc. I'm not the best LC player but I have made suspect reqs in the past and peaked top 20 on ladder a couple times so I wanted to give my opinion a couple things flying under the radar that could free up the meta, as well as something being underutilized.

Glimmet
I've said this before and I know a lot of people don't like it. But I think glimmet contributes to making the meta a bit stale. It has 34% usage, a really solid special attack stat, and an ability that forces teams to run a grounded poison due to how common it is. I think getting rid of glimmet would see an increase in usage for mienfoo and vullaby checks such as snubbull and larvesta. I think other defensive mons would also see an increase in usage such as toedscruel, because there won't be as much benefit to having a defensive poison type on your team. Overall this would result in a more diverse meta.

Eviolite
Eviolite I think is important for the meta, but I am mentioning it purely because OU had the recent controversial sleep ban that a lot of people ended up being happy with. I think in a generation where items like berry juice are removed, banning eviolite this generation could be fun to test, as mons like gligar and porygon could potentially see unbans. I think Eviolite should be legal in every generation it is in but I think generation 9 could be a single generation exception honestly just given the circumstances. I really do think this would be fun to test.

Another important thing that contributed to this idea was seeing how fun Gen 4 LC was, even though it was so fast paced.

Now for one thing I think is being underutilized

Impidimp
My highest ladder peaks post DLC 2 have been HO teams. I could be totally wrong but I think HO has a lot of potential people aren't seeing right now and impidimp screens is really solid. Shellder is a huge threat behind screens. Magby is honestly still really good even after the gastly ban, and bulk up timburr I've also found to be really solid. I've also seen quite a few unusual picks that work out well such as: Trailblaze mienfoo, rock polish glim and ryhorn, nasty plot zorua-h, LO torchic, and the list goes on. I definitely want to play around more with some creative sets, but I really do think Impidimp doesn't see as much usage as it should.

 

[Kakumei Kyougeki]

is gothita still suspect? i hadn't been aware that she was so controversial until now, i've just been playing the game Ó_ò
i don't really know if i should be involved in conversations regarding this because i've only been playing LC for a few weeks, stuck in 1000-1100, and my team is probably godawfully unoptimised as it stands*, but this does worry me because gothita's certainly helped me squeeze out of certain worrying situations

*ps if anyone wants 2 talk 2 me about the metagame and how i should be looking at things with my current setup im totally down ;0 i want to understand at least ONE format's meta lmfao

 

[Colin]

we are almost halfway through LCPL, so I no longer believe its too early to push for potential bans if they are necessary. In my opinion, Shellder and Gothita have been adapted to effectively but are still both very capable threats. I don't believe the same for Mienfoo and Voltorb-Hisui. In weeks 1 through 3, Mienfoo has had over a 90% usage rate, and Voltorb-Hisui over 70% usage rate. This speaks to the reliability of Voltorb-Hisui as a threat and its set variety through different Terablast types alone, and the near necessity of Mienfoo on all teams, which warps the metagame. I believe we should suspect both Pokemon at the same time, or suspect Voltorb-Hisui then Mienfoo regardless of the result.

To start with Voltorb-Hisui, Its incredible speed, tera variety, solid bulk, and the complete lack of safe Volt Switch blocking Pokemon makes it very reliable at making progress and difficult to limit or force into trades. Many choice scarfers such as Gothita cannot immediately threaten it with a KO, and others such as Growlithe-Hisui and Mienfoo are dropping in usage due to needing a lot of support or favoring other sets. These traits mean that Voltorb Hisui will pretty much always be effective or threatening regardless of what the opponent brings and often regardless of how they play. Wattrel and Foongus have been used more, but even they aren't safe vs Terablast and they can still be removed with Gothita support or used as entry points for offensive threats such as Growlithe-Hisui. I don't think that Voltorb-Hisui has enough healthy counterplay, and should be banned.

Mienfoo is slower, but even harder to deny from major progress when using the bulky pivot set thats been around for more than a decade. Swords Dance sets are also popular right now, and are a big part of what makes Mienfoo broken to me because you have to respect that threat from all Mienfoo before they reveal their set and spread. at +2, Mienfoo OHKOes nearly all non resists, and some resists such as Mareanie cannot immediately threaten a KO on it so get 2 shot anyway. Standard bulky pivot sets are also incredible; very few things can trade positively vs Mienfoo with regen + knock off + high jump kick. There's also a lack of reliable Mienfoo switch ins this meta, with only Snubbull, Foongus, and Mareanie frequently seen. All of them are slow, Gothita vulnerable, and cannot pivot with U-turn. Many teams therefore don't run any of these, and would instead either run a very offensive build, Vullaby to soft check it even though it doesn't even win 1v1 vs slow sets, Protect + Speed control to make its stab very hard to click, or Gothita to revenge KO a chipped Mienfoo. None of these alternatives are reliable, and often especially vulnerable to the SD sets spiraling out of control if given a free turn and therefore forced to trade unfavorably vs all Mienfoo.

I also just think that the metagame being so centralized as to have 3 pokemon on a majority of teams, and 3 more with over 40% usage is very limiting and unhealthy. I believe Voltorb-Hisui and Mienfoo are also broken and not just overcentralizing, but I also don't like the meta that they force.

 

[Éric]

I believe we should suspect both Pokemon at the same time, or suspect Voltorb-Hisui then Mienfoo regardless of the result.

ok this is a bad idea and i dont think i need to explain but here goes: two at once is bad bc people cant decide and base it so much on hypotheticals. we have lots of proof for that. one and the other right after without thinking is bad because why would we assume itll be broken? imagine if we had said that about ss lc vullaby + porygon colin.

now on each mon individually

voltorb

i have yet to watch or play a game where voltorb feels too much. it never just wins games, it never forces you into lose/lose situations, it never feels too much in the builder. i never understood where these “ban voltorb” comments come from and i still dont. so many mons use defensive teras against it (which are good against other things, like electric vull vs opp vull and dragon foo vs shellder/growlithe), so many times you just trade with it bc voltorb doesnt hit very hard. every lcpl game the people claim is a “broken voltorb game” it just… isnt idk man i dont get it

mienfoo

this is a claim i could get behind, even though i disagree. fighting resists are easy to fit, and they do many more jobs than just beating mienfoo. whats more, lots of teams without fighting resists exist, and they are very good still. i cant get behind saying even fighting resist filled teams arent enough when people still play poisonless teams and win regardless. i get the sd mienfoo fear in theory, but in practice you are trading offense for defense here, and given how much needed mienfoo is vs every team you tend to hold back on setting up and breaking. oftentimes, it wont do as much as you expected. also, in this very offensive metagame, mienfoos defensive capabilities are more limited, and it is very easy to chip it down and keep it low with stuff like volt switch and knock offs, to the point where it has an even harder time getting in. of course, it is very good at 1v1ing most of everything, but i dont believe it to be overwhelming yet. if scarf sets were better, maybe

on something you will hate me for

Gothita has been adapted to effectively

it hasnt. nothing has changed regarding gothita and its place in the tier, counterplay to it or teams used with/against it. you guys just have realized it was never that good

 

[Hacker]

Fine. I'll post one more time especially because theres not really a better time than now if theres anything to be done.

First things first, can we PLEASE free Aipom. There is actually no reason for this mon to be gatekept when it so clearly is not gonna be anywhere close to broken with fury swipes as its normal STAB. If it would be anywhere close to even broken maybe people would use Minccino? Just food for thought though. "Tera Normal Fury Swipes kills every non resist its broken what the hell are you talking about". Have you guys calced with Minccino? It does the same exact stuff except people don't use it anyways because its bad lol.. Fast Fake Out U-Turn etc stuff is really valuable to have and I think people are stuck in the past where Aipom may have been problematic before in oldgens, but its now lost its best tool in Tail Slap which just makes it a slightly better Minccino which nobody thinks is better than a like C tier mon on the VR, let alone bringable in tournament play with consistent success. It literally should be a no brainer to unban this thing lmfao

Eitherway, I think the meta is in the best spot its been in a while and I would actually argue its the best its been since we got our normal LC staples like Mienfoo, Vullaby, etc. HOWEVER I still don't think this tier is the best it could be and I find it painfully unfun to both play and build in throughout my involvement with my LCPL teams prep in SV. I think theres a few problematic mons but we can go over what aspects of the tier I currently done like though. I also don't really like the argument about centralizing because I think that SS rn is awesome even though its centralized around Vullaby (tbh its not even broken there people were just coping) and in fact I think its centralization lead to more variety than there was before. I also don't think centralization = uninteractive either which leads into my main point

Games are uninteractive
We play LC, its not like we play this tier because it has the most variety or anything. If thats why we played it we would just play another tier but my god I find this tiers main interactions so boring. I don't see the fun in constantly playing a game of tag with Mienfoo and Hisuian Voltorb with them coming in and pivoting out with each other. Other culprits I don't like are things like Gothita making playing vs it with your Mienfoo and Holtorb answers losing to it so you have to pray your answers to them just don't get trapped. There is a reason every other modern tier bans trapping because its inherently uncompetitive because of how demanding and uncompetitive the gameplay ends up being. And hell I think its even worse to deal with in LC than in level 100 because options like Shed Shell are completely off the table and theoretically get knocked anyways.

How do I solve this?
I mean I mentioned it above but i think Mienfoo and Hisuian Voltorb are really the main culprits of this because of how much they are forced to interact with each other on the sole basis of Mienfoo being one of two Hisuian Voltorb checks that work with longevity in mind bc haha regen go brr. I think its mainly Hisuian Voltorb that leads to what I consider uninteractive games

Are any mons actually broken or uncompetitive that deserve to be banned?
Yes. Three of them. I'd like to first move onto what people who seem to be fine would the meta would do if anything at all

Shellder
This guy is so clearly not broken. Win rate is a meme statistic (WHEN SAYING SOMETHING WINS TOO MUCH) but with a mon like Shellder who has a 30% winrate while only being used 20% of the time is silly. All cases of shellder winning in LCPL are people playing sacking their best out to it early or loading unoptimal teams. There are so many games of Shellder just flopping where it feels like if any player just loads a good team it just flops or does close to nothing. Here are some examples. One Two Three. Play or build well and you will not lose to Shellder.

Onto guys that actually are broken now

Hisuian Voltorb
Read above

Mienfoo
Probably a bit of a shocker to most but I do unironically find this guy broken. SD sets easily break through its counters, it still gets to pivot for free with Regen even if you do end up giving it SD and just use it to force progress later. Into teams without a fight resist it gets incredibly sketchy if you are using a guy like Holtorb who is a great all around lead and you to correctly guess its set. Volt Switch into Vullaby on SD is really bad and you are probably losing a mon, but if the Mienfoo just clicks U-Turn on the counter thet just get to get in another threat for free and just click a button. Regen Knock Turn is broken especially while it has the potential to just easily beat its few counters and heal back up afterwards. It is a little crazy.

Gothita
I still have the same problem I have always had with Gothita. It synergizes really well with the rest of the best pokemon and in combination with them it makes a lot of guys borderline uncheckable. No stats particularly back this up but if you are actively building the tier you will understand its presence and if you don't think about it there you will definently see its impact while playing the game itself.

That is basically it for the substance of my post but if I see nonsense I am speaking on it.

i have yet to watch or play a game where voltorb feels too much. it never just wins games

Maybe if you look at it with your perfect view sure. But I think there are plenty of games where it looks pretty damn dominant. Examples One Two and plenty more where even if it itself didnt end up winning the game there was just nothing the opponent would be able to do about it in the endgame. Up to the jury if these games feels like it is dominating too much though. Even in games like this where it lost it was very certainly super dominant and I would definently argue too much.

i get the sd mienfoo fear in theory, but in practice you are trading offense for defense here, and given how much needed mienfoo is vs every team you tend to hold back on setting up and breaking.

Mienfoo has the ability Regenerator and can heal up regardless after setting up and breaking. I had very good success in open using a defensive SD Mienfoo and I think you should try it instead of giving comments like its only one or the other which to me scream either ignorant or uninformed in the first place.

My personal opinion on what we should do regarding action on the tier
I WILL VOTE BAN ON LITERALLY ANY OF THE MONS I SAID ARE BROKEN/UNHEALTHY

 

[wesh papillon]

I was reading a cookbook earlier, and I was told that the secret to poke bowl was rice and fish. When I saw the word "poke" I had Vietnam flash backs but my mind has expanded and I now understand the truth.

The ancient recipe of little cup, passed down through generations of little cup gamers, has 2 core ingredients that need balancing: they are VULLABY and MIENFOO. The two MUST be the core of the tier, otherwise u dont have a little cup pokebowl type thing, u have a complete abomination that resembles more Drifting cooking at 3 am then real fine little cup cuisine.

Remember, we've had this recipe for at least a decade (older then half the people reading this btw) and it is PERFECTLY FINE and in no way should ever think about changing it!

Anyways: voltorb: apparently it's higher than vull on the vr or something. This is UNACCEPTABLE, we need to have the equivalent of an uncle Roger or gordon Ramsey of little cup, because you arent juggling the core component well at all. It would be like if I were cooking pokebowls for my gf, and then I put rice, fish, and then a fucking voltorb in her plate???? hello?

Any other element can be added or removed ofc, as long as the main components remain the focus. Remember to ALWAYS FOLLOW PRECEDENT, the PAST is ALWAYS indicative of what you need to do in the PRESENT!!!!!!!!!!

First things first, can we PLEASE free Aipom.

would you put a monkey in ur poke bowl? no. Then no aipom. MIENFOO and VULLABY. ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!

Gothita
I still have the same problem I have always had with Gothita. It synergizes really well with the rest of the best pokemon and in combination with them it makes a lot of guys borderline uncheckable.

good, that means it highlights the flavours you want, which Is MIENFOO, also according to the rules of little cup, gothita is mostly Fine, so it is fine here. Different times mean nothing, follow tradition. if its legal in oras it should be legal here

Remember that much like ur poke bowl shouldn't have more then 8-10 ingredients, little cup should NOT HAVE MORE THEN 10 VIABLE POKEMON.

!!!!!!!!!!


Glory to little cup!

 

[Éric]

Mienfoo has the ability Regenerator and can heal up regardless after setting up and breaking.

i know that. i also know it gets high jump kick, knock off and uturn. i also know that regenerating from 3 hp to 10 hp wont help much at checking shit. thats what i meant. you trade offense for defense bc oftentimes you will need to get it in multiple times to get it back to a reasonable health. sd foo obviously trades a lot vs volt switch, knock off and sludge bomb, therefore getting low when it achieves what it wants to do. yes, you can regen back if you switch out twice, but can you do that while living the assault vs voltorb/stunky/dog/etc? not to mention when gothita traps you after. this is my point, not trading evs or whatever. of course, it is good and can find ways to do this, but in my view it doesnt do it consistently enough to where its an issue

 

[Fernanch]

Shitmons a that I used: The good, the bad and the ugly
​

Hi, I had this idea for quite sometime now to make a post about mons that are considered bad on today standards, and judge them on how good they are

I was considering making this into a thread, but I don't know the specifics on how to use a thread, so I think it should be cool to see some niche mons that can do stuff in the current metagame

What do I consider a shitmon?

A Mon that is generally considered bad, and it doesn't do much besides some niched role. Also some mons that are heavily outclassed

Or just be named Growlithe hisui

Let's start the list with the good:



I personally don't consider this a shitmon, but generally is seen as one, and it is also very much not used like it was before.

Nymble role is mostly as a revenge killer, with strong tinted lens life orb first impressions, that can one shot a scarf foo with tera bug

228+ Atk Life Orb Tinted Lens Tera Bug Nymble First Impression vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 23-29 (109.5 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can also revenge mons like non protect torb, life orb stunky, and can sometimes beat knocked offa mareanie and foongus in a 1v1, with leech life, or just U-turn out of there, since this Mon has a great speed tier of 14 on a max speed neutral nature

So, in papper, this Mon seems like a actual very good Mon, that can destroy some unprepared teams. What is the biggest catch that can make him...

Oh yeah that, also the rise of endure vulla is a bit anoying, but manageable, since you can sucker punch it.

Also beign rocks weak is another thing that makes him a bit akward to use.

Alr, moving next, we have

The bad



Bramblin is so bad, like holy, this Mon losses to almost everything in the meta. Let me explain

So, this Mon role is as a spinner, that can recover itself with strength sap. He has powerfull stabs, like poltergeist and power whip. He has priority with shadow sneak, and he can also sets spikes, and thief a knock off

Alr, that seems p good, why is he so bad?

Well, the biggest part of it is , a Mon that bramblin literally has nothing to do vs. beign knock weak is so bad to him, since he doesn't beat tinkatink and mienfoo 1v1. He is setup fodder to torchic, free entry to Growlithe hisui, doesn't beat ice beam mareanie, doesn't beat glimmet most of the time.

So, what interactions can he win?

He is a p good counter to mudbray, hard counters the best shitmon around , can beat torb on the 1v1, and force it to tera, and can beat former shitmon 1v1, even with knock off.

But overall, don't use this Mon, if u want to use a grass type with rapid spin and spikes, use toed

Alr, now let's go to

The ugly



Fidough is a very fun one

Firstly, this is one of 2 Mons with wish in the game, so it can fit in some extremely niche strategy's, since wish was never a very good strategy to begin with.

Since he is fairy type, he hard counters foo, and can threaten it with a ko, since the are the same speed tier.

That is Abt it, this Mon is p much a worse snubbul. Not much to say besides that, but he still very fun to use, so I will keep it here

So, that was it, thanks for your time, have a good day. I might make a part 2 one day