the particular M U was bad 2 sun setters is hard to beat with only a kyogre and tornadushttps://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2303051549-ih19y6denv2fjlnlr9r0v6tb1w856hupw
Proof that rain sucks (even with support from tornadus)
Also this ain't low ladder or a team issue or a skill issue, we both made mistakes, I'm 1700 they were 1800 during the time of battle
Yeah that’s a very tough matchup for Rain, with two opposing sun setters, screens, and Miraidon. If you’re running a hyper offense team with Calyrex/Tornadus/Rain, you really need something to break screens. For instance, on my rain TR team, I run Psychic Fangs on Basculegion for this reason, as well as having stuff like Magearna that is good into Grimmsnarl. Here’s the team for reference:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2303051549-ih19y6denv2fjlnlr9r0v6tb1w856hupw
Proof that rain sucks (even with support from tornadus)
Also this ain't low ladder or a team issue or a skill issue, we both made mistakes, I'm 1700 they were 1800 during the time of battle
2. Rain Trick Room
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
Trick Room maybe be the best way to play rain, since Calyrex-Ice takes out everything that Kyogre struggles to hit, and vice versa (just have to be careful around wide guard). The idea is pretty simple, setting TR up either through Annihilape Final Gambit + TR or Incin fake out support, then pivoting into the powerful TR sweepers. Basculegion is there to either end game sweep, pivot back into TR mons, or remove screens that typically would slow down TR teams. Lastly Iron Ball Kyogre is a fun way to help beat opposing Calyrex-Ice, as opposing Caly-Ice can often be tough to beat for TR.
never knew u were a mod gz on getting that rollYeah that’s a very tough matchup for Rain, with two opposing sun setters, screens, and Miraidon. If you’re running a hyper offense team with Calyrex/Tornadus/Rain, you really need something to break screens. For instance, on my rain TR team, I run Psychic Fangs on Basculegion for this reason, as well as having stuff like Magearna that is good into Grimmsnarl. Here’s the team for reference:
For these reasons, I also think a fairy type is practically required for rain, so that team could try Zacian-Crowned over Zamazenta-Crowned on this team, knowing the trade-off is being worse into Trick Room.
wide guard?Peaked relatively high on the ladder and wanted to share my team with you guys
View attachment 717161
Basically just Hard TR and Psyspam, but I did ladder quite a bit and would like to share my thoughts on that (more information about the team on my RMT).
Ladder right now is like a breeding ground for all kinds of nasty stuff. I'd say I encountered more cheese at the 1550-1600 ELO mark than I did from 1300-1450 ELO. Idk if this is just an Ubers thing or if the tier doesn't really appeal to many anymore, but it made laddering really funny but at times, really boring, slow, and kind of not enjoyable.
I really like this meta still, but it's hard to get some good play in without direct challenging because of the state of the ladder. Also not attacking the tier, fire tier. I think it's moreso a bit of the player base.
got number 2 on the ladder
this team destroys TR because of kyogre's water spout and tornadus's support
If the TR gets set, amoongus is there to do a fast spore to put pokes to sleep
bascueleigon is here to be an endgame threat and KO low hp pokes
Zama is here for the wide gaurd and some chip damage
csr is to be a wall breaker with nasty plot and astral barrage special walls like kyogre get usually o-koed by +2 csr psyshock
say a bulky kyogre will still be 2koed by the same attack at +2 +2 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
what is tornadus-I is probably better than arceus fire in this formatIn my opinion:
Tier 1
Miraidon
Is a sleep answer, water resist and kyogre answer, hits very strong in terrain and has more set diversity (AV, specs, carf, LO, electric seed...). Broken mon. Very splashable.
Zamazenta-C
Very splashable on teams, checks op mons, etc.
Arceus-Normal
Ghost inmunity, extreme speed + SD very good.
Both calyrexs
Tera makes even more dangerous, op exclusive moves, etc.
Tier 2
Zacian-C
Kyogre
Koraidon
Groudon
Arceus Fire and maybe dark
Tier 3
Lunala
Incineroar
Tornadus-I
Whimsicott
Arceus-Ground and Fairy
Ho-oh
Terapagos
Eternatus
Magearna
Maybe flutter mane and grimmsnarl
Maybe necrozma-DM should be mentioned in tier 4, I found this mon pretty decent.
Of course, there are other mons that are good in the right teams but I'm not listing all of them.
You can try it, however electric terrain (via Miraidon) is extremely prevalent, and this prevents grounded Pokemon from being put to sleep. So you’d need also a way of changing the terrain, at which point you’re committing so much effort to putting stuff to sleep, you’re missing out on the main goal, which is to ko your opponents pokemon.Is darkrai any good? My friend just found out that dark void is not banned and we put together a cheese team with wide lens darkrai + tailwind users
The first 3 members are pretty standard on Darkrai teams. Calyrex shadow + darkrai, gravity + dark void. Sometimes Darkrai runs Dark void + hypnosis (for avoid wide guard and for more accuracity in one target but don't like that).Is darkrai any good? My friend just found out that dark void is not banned and we put together a cheese team with wide lens darkrai + tailwind users
The thing people get wrong with Murkrow is that they try to use it at all. Arceus-Dark does all of this better, and is much more sturdy into both Calyrex forms. It can be used as something like Foul Play/TW/Recover/Any 4th move you need - like Cosmic Power, Taunt, a coverage move, Perish Song (as you mentioned) or Calm Mind if you want to run Judgement over Foul Play. Due to its bulk in comparison to Murkrow, it does not need to rely on Prankster to get up Tailwind, and can maintain more of a presence on the field.Murkrow is my hot take. I see a lot of murkrow hate and it's mostly unfounded. Murkrow has three main draws over tornadus:
1. Stab foul play, which deals heavy damage into both calyrexes, sd arceus, lunala, ect.
2. Dark typing, a tailwinded murkrow can outspeed and taunt an opposing tornadus, but tornadus cannot do this to a murkrow
3. Prankster movepool, mostly this means twave but murkrow also has haze and even perish song
I absolutely feel this mon deserves to be tier 4 or even 3. The thing a lot of people get wrong about murkrow is that they try to use it with eviolite, but murkrow just doesn't have the bulk to run an eviolite in a meta that allows miraidon.
This is the Miraidon/Koraidon effect, it doesn't really have anything to do with Wide Guard imo. It's just too slow to participate a lot of the time, and hitting Origin Pulse is often a huge gamble, but I've seen some really nice Rain teams with stuff like Basc/Mage etc. that operate in a Semiroom structure. You can see two Kyogre-focused teams in a game Actuarily and I played which was very fun (my team was kinda ass lmao): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesubers-810780Kyogre 4->3: This thing is just too good to languish in the bottommost tier. I know wide guard exists, but rain boosted water spouts are just too strong against almost everything else for kyogre to be this low.
Arceus cannot spread priority taunts or hazes. Arc cannot stop opposing prankster tailwind from going up, nor survive let alone cripple a +3 zamazenta. In addition, a priority tailwind basically lasts an extra turn, as it gives the speed boost on the turn it is used, allowing your miraidon to win the crucial speed tie with an opposing bike. Arc dark cannot do this. (The same 1 turn bonus also applies to thunder wave) Arceus dark also takes up the one valuable arceus slot. I agree that arceus dark has a much larger presence on the field than a murkrow, but murkrow can lift you out of otherwise losing situations in a way that arceus just can't. (Why is tornadus so much better than Ho-oh and defensive arceus forms? prankster tailwind is its own thing)The thing people get wrong with Murkrow is that they try to use it at all. Arceus-Dark does all of this better, and is much more sturdy into both Calyrex forms. It can be used as something like Foul Play/TW/Recover/Any 4th move you need - like Cosmic Power, Taunt, a coverage move, Perish Song (as you mentioned) or Calm Mind if you want to run Judgement over Foul Play. Due to its bulk in comparison to Murkrow, it does not need to rely on Prankster to get up Tailwind, and can maintain more of a presence on the field.
While the part on haze is true, Arceus is fast enough / bulky enough to get off a Haze even if it moves last. Murkrow also is never really stopping Prankster Tailwind considering it is one of the slowest abusers of it (Whimsicott and Tornadus are far faster). I think your point on Tailwind is nice, but Thunder Wave can go off after just fine. Would also like to reiterate the point that Arceus is bulky enough to get these things off and is also fast enough in certain scenarios. You aren't running another Arceus from what I can see, so Arceus-Dark is a fine replacement. How exactly does Murkrow lift you out of a bad situation? Taunt to deny TR? Imprison Calyrex-S (which you are running) already fixes that, and Arceus-Dark can also use Taunt. I feel there is too much holding Murkrow back (since it is so easy to ignore) that it isn't really the best option here.Arceus cannot spread priority taunts or hazes. Arc cannot stop opposing prankster tailwind from going up, nor survive let alone cripple a +3 zamazenta. In addition, a priority tailwind basically lasts an extra turn, as it gives the speed boost on the turn it is used, allowing your miraidon to win the crucial speed tie with an opposing bike. Arc dark cannot do this. (The same 1 turn bonus also applies to thunder wave) Arceus dark also takes up the one valuable arceus slot. I agree that arceus dark has a much larger presence on the field than a murkrow, but murkrow can lift you out of otherwise losing situations in a way that arceus just can't. (Why is tornadus so much better than Ho-oh and defensive arceus forms? prankster tailwind is its own thing)
I will remind you that murkrow learns rain dance. Also, ho-oh and arceus also provide solid damage into koraidon by one shotting it.Tornadus isn't better than Ho-Oh and Defensive Arceus formes just because of Prankster Tailwind. It also provides solid spread damage into Koraidon and Amoonguss while shutting off Sun with Rain Dance. I do think the VR is a bit outdated and defensive arceus formes (namely Water or even Fairy) should be a tier higher or so.
I’ve used Ting-Lu a bunch, yeah it’s definitely tier 4 worthy. Personally I’ve found Tera poison to be better than like ghost, since there’s a ton of dark types around, but it always depends on the rest of your team. As you said, it’s a good hazard setter that can really limit special attackers, so it goes well with like Normal Arceus.I will remind you that murkrow learns rain dance. Also, ho-oh and arceus also provide solid damage into koraidon by one shotting it.
56+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 330-390 (96.7 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 604-712 (177.1 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Arceus-water can even run dazzling gleam for similar results if desired. Amoongus gets whacked by sacred fire (it can deal with arceus though). I really see no difference between murkrow's relation to arceus dark and tornadus's relation to ho-oh/arceus. Non boosting arceus has a similar damage output to tornadus, and murkrow has a completely identical damage output to foul play arc-dark. Tornadus is arguably even worse, because it gives up almost all of the massive arc movepool, but murkrow keeps some of it. (When I mentioned taunting opposing prankster, I meant while under tailwind. A murkrow can keep its tailwind lead, but a tailwinded tornadus can do nothing to an untailwinded murkrow. This pressures tornadus players to lead with torn, which makes the leads predictable)
In other news:
This thing absolutely bullies both calyrex and miraidon. It doesn't do too much immediately to the rest of the tier, but favorable matchups into all of the top tier special attackers is worth a lot. Even when its not bullying its favorite legendary snacks, it still can be a nuisance as it stacks hazards and phases. Removing it is doable because of a lack of reliable recovery, but it can be painful due to insane bulk and a broken ability. Tera ghost allows it to flip its matchups 180 degrees, walling fighting types but losing its old immunities. I don't have too much experience playing this thing but I absolutely hate to see it on an enemy team. My gut says this should be tiered but I haven't used it enough to be sure. Does anyone think this should be tier 4?