Metagame Doubles Ubers

[SpencerJRocks]

Hey. I’m glad you’re enjoying DUbers, but while I’m not a mod, I think some would take issue with this post.

You mentioned that you were from a VGC background and I can see how the team you’ve constructed makes conceptual sense for a hypothetical future VGC format. If you’re testing for that purpose, then this post makes more sense, although that’s not really what this thread is for.

It’s implied though that you’re promoting this team as a premier choice for DUbers, which is where I believe most would disagree. It’s not obvious from your post but I think you’ve mentioned that you reached 1500 Elo in the ladder? Anyone who’s any Elo is welcome to join in the conversation about this format, but this post is very brazen in its self-praise when it hasn’t approached the top of the ladder and many of the Pokémon lack precedent at the top of the ladder. While Raichu makes sense on a team with this many water-types, I wouldn’t hold my breath about it being viable at high-level. Similarly, Landorus-Therian’s been written off as a bad Pokémon in this format. Kyogre teams in general are scarce at the top.

I don’t mean to seem like I’m ‘telling you off’, because I’m not. I like the thinking behind your team, but it’s the case in any game that if you’re going to speak highly about an unconventional strategy you created, you need to have the proof and the credentials.

Love the VGC idea, a friend of mine has a team that was built for VGC but thrived on doubles Ubers. He is the Necrozma User and spoiler he uses necrozma. Keep working and the VGC idea might work.

 

[Dr Hemington]

Hey everyone! Sorry - I don’t want to spam this forum. My team’s paste has been highly requested and since I’m taking a little break I thought I’d drop it here.

Groudon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Brick Break
- Stomping Tantrum
- Fire Punch

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 4 Def / 176 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Collision Course
- Breaking Swipe
- Snarl
- Flare Blitz

Grimmsnarl @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Parting Shot
- Misty Terrain

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wide Guard
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Snarl

Eternatus @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 172 HP / 220 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Toxic
- Flamethrower
- Recover

Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 64 SpA / 152 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Judgment
- Recover
- Cosmic Power

This first team I’ve tested less but it’s the one that I used to hit 1964. It uses Eternatus instead of Miraidon. The lack of terrain control is made up for by replacing Grimmsnarl’s Thunder Wave with Misty Terrain, which I think may have a lot of potential on Grimmsnarl sets. I initially chose it as a necessity against the occasional Darkrai, but the ability to remove the terrain ‘and’ replace it with a terrain that reduced Dragon-type damage often feels like putting up a second screen against big threats like Pokémon like Miraidon, Koraidon and Expanding Force Calyrex-Shadow. It also allows you to keep Grimmsnarl in when there’s psychic terrain and threaten parting shot on the following turn.

What I’ve found is that Eternatus is much better than Miraidon at exploiting winning scenarios. Once Eternatus digs its claws in and gets a few Cosmic Powers off, it can then easily convert those defensive buffs into a win with Toxic. Whereas Arceus-Fire is designed to get one or two cosmic powers off to give it room to spam, Eternatus is looking to +6. I am however concerned that it’s a gimmick for lower ladder, as when good rain users manage to pry back Weather control or get Calyrex-Shadow rolling, Eternatus isn’t quite as proactive at clearing threats as Miraidon. I also think that a lot of the climb happened in a short span of time after I’d made the change, so perhaps surprise factor played a part. There was also a loss of spread-damage trick-room prevention, though perhaps an overall improvement in most TR matchups. I didn’t opt for a dragon or poison attack on Eternatus primarily because of Magearna, and because I figured the only Pokémon Eternatus would really need to attack would be those immune to Toxic. The EVs maximise leftovers.

I’ve also included the version of the team that had Miraidon in it.


Groudon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Brick Break
- Fire Punch
- Stomping Tantrum

Koraidon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 4 Def / 176 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Collision Course
- Breaking Swipe
- Snarl
- Flare Blitz

Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 64 SpA / 152 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Judgment
- Recover
- Cosmic Power

Grimmsnarl @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Parting Shot
- Thunder Wave

Miraidon @ Electric Seed
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 100 SpA / 12 SpD
Modest Nature
- Electro Drift
- Draco Meteor
- Snarl
- Protect

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wide Guard
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Snarl

I didn’t expressly calc anything but more went off feel with trial and error.



Groudon moved to Assault Vest when I removed Calyrex. In Trick Room there was a lesser premium on scarf. Since Zamazenta is a bulkier Pokémon than Calyrex, being able to make 2 defensive enhancements on a screens team made the team stronger overall. Additionally, switching to Assault Vest was way less RNG-dependent, since missing Precipice Blades with Assault Vest grants you the insurance of using Stomping Tantrum the following turn. As tempting as it would be to give Groudon more Special Defense investment to be magnified by Assault Vest, 252+ Atk feels necessary to break Trick Room attempts and punish switches.



Koraidon’s not particularly interesting but notice it’s basically a pure tank variant.



Arceus-Fire’s not quite as much of a playmaker as it used to be, though they’re definitely an essential component. It’s becoming harder to take over a game with Arceus-Fire with improvements to Kyogre team design, but there isn’t a substitute for it and it’s a really vital element in clearing opposing Zamazenta.



Grimmsnarl’s self-explanatory.



Zamazenta’s been rudimentarily given a bit of SpD to soften hits from specs Miraidon. Tera Fighting’s there to out-duel other Zamazenta, juke attacking types that hit steel and extend body press’ KO range.



Miraidon’s a bulky set like Korai. Bizarrely enough, the only one of my Pokémon that knew protect. Protect’s not as important in defensive formats.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to seeing what the community looks like later down the line. Catch you guys later!

 

[cruisinconnor]

Got 6 accounts to the 1600's with this sun team. Originally kept making new alts to test on low ladder, but it just immediately shot up in the rankings and has been doing really well. Figured I'd share what I can of it below:


Gouging Fire @ Clear Amulet
Ability: Protosynthesis
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Morning Sun
- Burning Bulwark
- Flare Blitz

Groudon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Drought
Impish Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Slide
- Thunder Punch
- Shadow Claw

Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Stomping Tantrum

Calyrex-Shadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Psychic
- Trick
- Shadow Ball

Chi-Yu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Overheat

Koraidon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Jolly Nature
- Collision Course
- Tera Blast
- Flare Blitz
- Breaking Swipe

The only thing is that Dr. Hemmington continuously whips my butt on a daily basis with his team above. I added tera blast rock to Koraidon to try to stop their incredible Arceus Fire but the issue is that this team wants to tera elsewhere. Mainly Calyrex to Normal or Chi-Yu to Ghost. Pretty much everyone else not named Dr. Hemmington has issues with this team.

 

[cruisinconnor]

What are everyone's thoughts on Toxic Spikes in this format? I feel like there has been a huge lack of pivoting lately. Only really Volt Switch with Miraidon. Incin and Rilla have been few and far between, and I feel like it is a great asset to counter set-up sweepers. Especially when the only poison type that's around really is Eternatus. And it's not common at all.

 

[Charlotte]

What are everyone's thoughts on Toxic Spikes in this format? I feel like there has been a huge lack of pivoting lately. Only really Volt Switch with Miraidon. Incin and Rilla have been few and far between, and I feel like it is a great asset to counter set-up sweepers. Especially when the only poison type that's around really is Eternatus. And it's not common at all.

Month late reply, I hadn't checked the thread until now.
I'm a huge huge fan of tspikes in dubers. In particular I'm a big fan of Iron Moth as the setter for them too as anyone who's talked to me about dubers will attest to. Using sash and quark boosting speed with miraidon it can get a layer down pretty consistently and also has some great utility beyond that, particularly into the targets that aren't affected by tspikes, making for a mon that always brings some value to the table.
With acid spray it can help setup KOs for your own miraidon, or even something like a caly-s, and I think this is particularly good at breaking down Eternatus's defences, particularly if they're the cosmic power set, being able to undo the spdef boosts and let your big special hitters break through it is massive
And with Overheat you can threaten the steel types (zama and zacian mostly) who can't be poisoned, and amoonguss too.
I've used it a lot and honestly love the moth

 

[Willro101]

Hello? is anyone in here?
anyways i would like to share this team that i built that will probably be spammed big time.

Incineroar isn’t even questionable it should be T1 or T2 it’s so good. calyrex-shadow check before tera, knock support into bikes, fake out support, parting shot to get out of there. honestly your probably never gonna click tera on Incineroar unless your really scared of amoonguss or smeargle it just doesn’t need it. Miraidon is a fantastic pivot and wallbreaker and magnet helps do the job so well. magnet volt switch gets to almost 110 base power with e-terrain and electro drift gets to over 150. combined with the over 400 speed tier let’s it gain kills big time. Koraidon might look a little off here since it’s a fast team but it doesn’t suffer much from the choice lock. collision course with the sun up will always kill terapagos after tera. dragon claw will kill both bikes without counting tera, and flare blitz and u-turn are just good to have in the movepool. Calyrex-Shadow is hands down the best mon in the tier. once it starts getting kills it sweeps teams, it supports the team with pollen puff, draining kiss picks up kills or atleast chunks against super effective targets, it’s like a 3-4hko on zamazenta-crowned so it’s a good deterrent to wide guard. D-kiss can also revive the sash to eat a big hit later like the rare behemoth bash or a sucker punch off of something. zamazenta-crowned is incredibly strong with iron defense and body press when Miraidon Calyrex-Shadow and Kyogre is dead, because it just doesn’t die. the ev spread on it is to always outspeed Arceus. Finally we have Arceus-Fairy, THIS THING ISNT NO DAMM T4, this thing is fantastic with the dragon immunity fighting resist and judgement chunking Zamazenta-Crowned Koraidon Miraidon taunt getting clicked on Tornadus Whimsicott or even opposing Arceus. since the team is so fast we don’t need a prankster tailwind user so defensive arceus fits perfectly here. the ev’s on it make sure it always outspeeds Groudon Kyogre and other base 90s. it also doesn’t like to die with recover. This team is fantastic and i believe it can win in every matchup with good playing. All in all take Arceus-Fairy out of T4 that’s criminal

Also heres some replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2167231238
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2166314693

this is also a sample submission for later samples

 

[oh the guilt]

I've recently become very interested in this tier, and I've been building teams that could be quite strong

Team

This is a team I really like; it's a fun semi-Trick Room setup. Lunala and Groudon have always been a strong core, and with the introduction of Tera, they’ve become even more incredible. Both can boost themselves with Swords Dance and Meteor Beam. Lunala provides speed control and helps avoid moves like Glacial Lance and Water Spout/Origin Pulse.

Chi-Yu and Calyrex-Shadow are two Pokémon that, when paired together, deal devastating damage. Thanks to their double Focus Sash, they can survive key hits and turn the tide of the battle. Amoonguss and Incineroar are excellent supports, allowing us to redirect and put opponents to sleep at will, which is crucial for Groudon.

The team's strategy is to deal significant damage quickly and boost our stats to sweep everything in our path

/

Team

Here's another Calyrex-based team, also built around a semi-Trick Room strategy. The core of Calyrex-Ice, Grimmsnarl, and Kyogre is fantastic because it allows us to hit hard and tank a lot of damage. Our plan is to set up one or both screens and then switch out to set up Trick Room or boost safely with Kyogre.

Miraidon is an incredibly fast Pokémon with a ridiculously strong move, Electro Drift, which can be used for pivoting with Volt Switch or staying in to take down opponents. Amoonguss is there to help both inside and outside of Trick Room by redirecting attacks and putting opponents to sleep. Tornadus is mainly for Tailwind support and can also use Taunt to disrupt opponents, though it could be replaced by Whimsicott with Sash, Moonblast, Encore, Tailwind, and Protect.

 

[IMakeNoSense]

I think this gimmicky little grub is severely overlooked. It enables for mass destruction.
https://pokepast.es/7ecd91935caf16da

It's bulk after Eviolite isn't too farfetched for a support mon, it gets great utility in both Sticky Web for hazards as well as String Shot to ensure that your partner will almost always go first. I used one in Gen 8 NatDex Ubers and the things that it could enable on its teammates was insane. Just by raw damage alone, Kyogre, my favorite teammate for it, can do over 200 base power with a full health Water Spout, or alternatively with Origin Pulse, while also Kyogre's Drizzle gives Charjabug a much needed relief from Fire moves that would otherwise check it, like Koraidon or Incineroar's Flare Blitz. I also run an Electric Terrain team with Miraidon's Hadron Engine, so it mutually boosts Charja's Electroweb for better chip damage + speed drop, while also boosting Miraidon's attacks further. Archaludon could be used for both Kyogre and Miraidon, giving it better matchups against Fire in rain, yet also making it's Electro Shot an one-turn, stat boosting, Electric Terrain powered attack, which is powered even FURTHER by Battery on Charjabug. Switching Charjabug into a Fighting type helps Archaludon if it really needs to, as well as Grass types for Kyogre. Calyrex-Shadow can be used as well, for both the immense power that a Battery-powered Astral Barrage would have and free switch-ins when Archaludon is threatened.

THE WORLD SHALL KNOW THE WRATH OF MCQUEEN!!!

"Kachow!" -McQueen the Charjabug, 2024

 

[wyverno]

View attachment 660832
I think this gimmicky little grub is severely overlooked. It enables for mass destruction.
https://pokepast.es/7ecd91935caf16da

It's bulk after Eviolite isn't too farfetched for a support mon, it gets great utility in both Sticky Web for hazards as well as String Shot to ensure that your partner will almost always go first. I used one in Gen 8 NatDex Ubers and the things that it could enable on its teammates was insane. Just by raw damage alone, Kyogre, my favorite teammate for it, can do over 200 base power with a full health Water Spout, or alternatively with Origin Pulse, while also Kyogre's Drizzle gives Charjabug a much needed relief from Fire moves that would otherwise check it, like Koraidon or Incineroar's Flare Blitz. I also run an Electric Terrain team with Miraidon's Hadron Engine, so it mutually boosts Charja's Electroweb for better chip damage + speed drop, while also boosting Miraidon's attacks further. Archaludon could be used for both Kyogre and Miraidon, giving it better matchups against Fire in rain, yet also making it's Electro Shot an one-turn, stat boosting, Electric Terrain powered attack, which is powered even FURTHER by Battery on Charjabug. Switching Charjabug into a Fighting type helps Archaludon if it really needs to, as well as Grass types for Kyogre. Calyrex-Shadow can be used as well, for both the immense power that a Battery-powered Astral Barrage would have and free switch-ins when Archaludon is threatened.

THE WORLD SHALL KNOW THE WRATH OF MCQUEEN!!!
View attachment 660833
"Kachow!" -McQueen the Charjabug, 2024

kachowjabug

 

[Arcticblast]

Hey everyone! I have a few quick updates for you:

- I have taken control of this thread. Fear me! (Please don't!)
- With help from Yellow Paint we now have a few sample teams! Go check them out!
- We've also done a small but LONG overdue Viability Rankings update:

New:
New -> 2
New -> 3
New -> 3
New -> 4
New -> 4

Rises:
4 -> 3 - With the introduction of Smeargle and the Expanding Force TM, Indeedee has become more common, and teams that aren't using Miraidon may want another terrain to compete with Psychic Terrain.
UR -> 4 - Annihilape could utilize Scarf Final Gambit against most of the Pokemon in the format already, but the addition of Coaching means it has a little bit more juice in the tank that it can use to support Pokemon such as Arceus, Zacian-C, and Calyrex-Ice.

Drops:
4 -> UR - This was the only Expanding Force user before. We now have far better options. Good bye!
4 -> UR - Dozogiri was a relatively weak strategy before, and as the format has grown, the strategy has mostly been pushed out, particularly with the addition of Incineroar making Intimidate much more common on teams.
4 -> UR

While we kick things back into gear, we're looking for all the help we can get. This means we're accepting VR noms and sample team submissions! In addition, I'm looking for a new group of volunteers to help maintain the VR and samples; feel free to reach out if you're interested!

 

[Hupcosmommycar]

My team : https://pokepast.es/d4a954b958d8c3e2

 

[MT Enjoyer]

Have always been more or less on this rating, and now i felt like posting now that i am top 100/almost top 50, mostly playing for fun with Hard-TR




I love the design of this thing, and when it was released i always wanted to try this on TR, and it works. CM can snowball out of control and Tera Starstorm is a powerhouse of a move, Earth Power is to hit both and if Terapagos isn't tera'd. Does need careful play and healing/fake out support, but speed isn't a problem with TR. Can also go 3a + Sleep Talk Choice Specs if you like a more flexible Tera Choice or Leftovers if you want passive healing, but Safety Goggles allows it to ignore , which is a big threat for Hard-TR, and be really tanky against special attackers like forms, , or


The main TR man/horse/deer, Clear Amulet makes this thing so much better, ice rider has no fear of intimidate or parting shot thanks to it. Glacial Lance and High Horsepower is all you need for attacking moves, can set TR by himself and the flex slot for protect to scout or buy turns for positioning. Tera Water mainly for or the occasional while not using a tera that is weak to koraidon and the ev spread is the cool part. Found out that in this format this horse does not need as much atk to claim kos and start snowballing, and the extra special bulk allows Ice Rider to not fear or after tera and tank pretty nice.


This slot was in the first place when i started playing this format, which was when the 2nd DLC was released on showdown, but i quickly found out that my team had a big weakness to spread moves, especially gravity sleep shenanigans with Shadow Rider. Kept trucking with it but i reached a point were i was sick of . To replace for a TR setter with Wide Guard, I added PH Lunala, and i don't regret a single moment, this bat is incredibly good in this format.

Power Herb Meteor Beam is an incredible one time set up move that allows Lunala to ohko most or take a huge chunk of health off . Moongeist Beam for STAB option to hit the multiple psychic types there are in the tier and Wide Guard for spread moves, which are more often than finding a team with . For last move for a while i ran TR, since i like having three TR setters just for safety, and dark types absolutely dumpstered Lunala, so decided to switch TR for Moonblast which goes perfectly with Tera Fairy which is imo the go to tera for PH sets. Not running min speed just to make Lunala function outside TR to outspeed more slower threats or in general support.


Not much explanation needed, the best support for doubles. Huge dmg with Flare Blitz, Fake Out support, positioning thanks to Parting Shot and Knock Off to remove important items while hitting psychic types hard. Instead of Knock Off, you can run Snarl for a better control vs Sp.Attackers, but in endgame scenarios Knock is better for general damage without recoil. Sitrus for one time healing since Leftovers seem too slow for it and both horses dislike the presence of Incineroar. EVs are kinda messy, centred much more on Sp.Def since Intim helps with the physical side and Sp.Attackers seem much more scary. Not min speed to scout for speed tiers of opposing , but still slow enough to take advantage of TR. Tera Ghost is to avoid Low Kick/Collision Course/Close Combat while also avoiding fake out since i have nothing else other than protect or Lunala, but Tera Grass works for Amoonguss.


Part for the Water-Fire-Grass core, Volcanion has put up very much decent results, but its the most replaceable slot by far. Started using CM , but its too weak to and his rain gang, and after putting Lunala with Wide Guard he felt like a lite version of Terapagos that barely can get a CM off. Volcanion works much better, can dish a good amount of damage, tanks well enough with Assault Vest and has a wide enough movepool to hit basically anything. Water Absorb is very helpful for the usual and typing is good for fairy types. Steam Eruption and Heat Wave for STABs, Earth Power as nice coverage and Heavy Slam for last slot. Volcanion doesn't have a bad atk stat, and bc its TR i don't care about speed, so Heavy Slam works against Sp.Def bulky fairy types like . I don't really Tera with Volcanion, so just fill it with anything, Tera Ground sounds like a good idea for the very much obvious electric moves from or while not caring about water moves thanks to Water Absorb


Another support, picked this instead of mainly bc of ghost typing, Hospitality, burns and solid damage with Matcha Gotcha and most importantly access to TR. Sinitscha can also heal its teammates outside Hospitality thanks to Life Dew and also has redirection thanks to Rage Powder. This mon is just solid, there is so much switching that Hospitality proccs often and doesn't have to use a turn to heal with Pollen Puff, its another TR setter than doesn't fear fake out with is good and has some offensive pressure without investing too much evs into sp.atk. Tera Dark is there just to set TR in front of , but most of the time it does not come up, same for the item. Aguav is used bc i started using Rocky Helmet and sometimes i didn't have time to heal Sinistcha with Life Dew, Mental Herb might be used instead for taunt safety. EVs can be optimized too, but this works fine.

Looks like a team that shouldn't work, but it does just fine. It is reliant on getting good predicts and leads and dark types are very very scary without proper positioning. I love this metagame, a lot of options to use that only relies on the user and its lots of fun, i wish more singles people tried doubles since although it looks insane, its not as oppresive as it seems. My only complain is Gravity + , but Wide Guard exists so it isn't much problem. Looking forward to see how this evolves.

 

[Arcticblast]

Usage stats from Friendly Series 4

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Miraidon           |   25 |  73.53% |  48.00% |
| 2    | Zamazenta-*        |   24 |  70.59% |  45.83% |
| 3    | Calyrex-Ice        |   20 |  58.82% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Koraidon           |   11 |  32.35% |  63.64% |
| 5    | Kyogre             |   10 |  29.41% |  60.00% |
| 5    | Calyrex-Shadow     |   10 |  29.41% |  40.00% |
| 7    | Groudon            |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Incineroar         |    7 |  20.59% |  57.14% |
| 8    | Arceus             |    7 |  20.59% |  57.14% |
| 8    | Lunala             |    7 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 11   | Grimmsnarl         |    6 |  17.65% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Arceus-Ground      |    6 |  17.65% |  33.33% |
| 13   | Arceus-Dark        |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Sableye            |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Zacian-*           |    5 |  14.71% |  60.00% |
| 13   | Magearna           |    5 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 17   | Indeedee-F         |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Ho-Oh              |    4 |  11.76% |  25.00% |
| 19   | Amoonguss          |    3 |   8.82% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Arceus-Fire        |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Chien-Pao          |    3 |   8.82% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Ursaluna           |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Basculegion        |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Smeargle           |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Torkoal            |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Tornadus           |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Annihilape         |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Darkrai            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Venusaur           |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Cresselia          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Eternatus          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Iron Moth          |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Landorus           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Gothitelle         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Arceus-Fairy       |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Umbreon            |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Arceus-Water       |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Rillaboom          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Farigiraf          |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Walking Wake       |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Chi-Yu             |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 27   | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |

 

[MT Enjoyer]

Tier 3 --> Tier 2 honestly

Its so good and bulky thanks to AV, has a good matchup against bikes, Caly-Ice, Incin, both Zacian and Zamazenta, even Caly-Shadow and can smack EKiller, Weakness Policy users and Trick Room setters with Roar on bulky non-AV sets (No Dragon Tail sucks so much, why Game Freak?). Have tried him and he plays well with Miraidon and Caly-Ice and its not solely restricted to Sun. Groudon is one of the few Restricted Ground types and he performs as he is needed.

 

[Hupcosmommycar]

this team destroys TR because of kyogre's water spout and tornadus's support
If the TR gets set, amoongus is there to do a fast spore to put pokes to sleep
bascueleigon is here to be an endgame threat and KO low hp pokes
Zama is here for the wide gaurd and some chip damage
csr is to be a wall breaker with nasty plot and astral barrage special walls like kyogre get usually o-koed by +2 csr psyshock
say a bulky kyogre will still be 2koed by the same attack at +2 +2 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[QNJ]

this team destroys TR because of kyogre's water spout and tornadus's support
If the TR gets set, amoongus is there to do a fast spore to put pokes to sleep
bascueleigon is here to be an endgame threat and KO low hp pokes
Zama is here for the wide gaurd and some chip damage
csr is to be a wall breaker with nasty plot and astral barrage special walls like kyogre get usually o-koed by +2 csr psyshock
say a bulky kyogre will still be 2koed by the same attack at +2 +2 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hey,
I'm no Pokémon pro so take this with a grain of salt but after hitting #8 earlier on dubers, I think kyogre is a pretty bad pokemon (thanks to two strong sun setting Pokémon ) and so are tornadus and amoongus(they just cant handle the miraidon problem). What do you guys think?

 

[Hugo]

Hey,
I'm no Pokémon pro so take this with a grain of salt but after hitting #8 earlier on dubers, I think kyogre is a pretty bad pokemon (thanks to two strong sun setting Pokémon ) and so are tornadus and amoongus(they just cant handle the miraidon problem). What do you guys think?

I think Kyogre can work if given some support, in this case by raindance torn and torn is a mon I think certainly has some value. I do 100% agree tho on that miradion does just eat up that team if its played well.

 

[Actuarily]

Hey,
I'm no Pokémon pro so take this with a grain of salt but after hitting #8 earlier on dubers, I think kyogre is a pretty bad pokemon (thanks to two strong sun setting Pokémon ) and so are tornadus and amoongus(they just cant handle the miraidon problem). What do you guys think?

Kyogre is solid, you’re definitely right that the two sun setters complicate Kyogre’s ability to sweep, but things like rain dance Tornadus absolutely help with those matchups. Also it’s important to remember that both the sun setters are weak to ice, so if you’re in obvious situations where they’re gonna switch in their Koraidon/Groudon, you can just click ice beam.

 

[MT Enjoyer]

this team destroys TR because of kyogre's water spout and tornadus's support
If the TR gets set, amoongus is there to do a fast spore to put pokes to sleep
bascueleigon is here to be an endgame threat and KO low hp pokes
Zama is here for the wide gaurd and some chip damage
csr is to be a wall breaker with nasty plot and astral barrage special walls like kyogre get usually o-koed by +2 csr psyshock
say a bulky kyogre will still be 2koed by the same attack at +2 +2 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

my problem with this is tr with miraidon looks really good since it prevent amoonguss sporing everything, what do you do in that case? this team looks really weak to miraidon

 

[Arcticblast]

I still think Kyogre is really bad in DUbers, but I think Basculegion in rain is really good in DUbers, and if I want to use Basculegion, I'm using Kyogre. Caly-S is plenty of proof that Ghost STAB is potent in the format, really only missing Arceus and forcing some uncomfortable Tera types, and Basculegion can attack teams from a similar angle. It even has Wave Crash to immediately threaten Arceus in rain. I've found it pretty frustrating a few times; beating it actually requires really careful play if you don't have a way to just roast it immediately (Scarf Miraidon helps but isn't perfect).

 

[Actuarily]

I’ve been having a ton of fun playing DUbers in the friendly series dubers trios tournament (thanks DaWoblefet & bagel for asking me to play) as well as laddering a bunch, so figured I’d give a metagame post.

For some reason, people think SV Dubers is boring because every team is the same, which has not been my experience at all. I think it’s in the pretty sweet spot for a metagame, where there’s a handful of different team archetypes (with enough variance in those archetypes), while still being centralized enough around a couple big threats that you know you need to be prepared for. Below here’s a few teams that I’ve used successfully in both tour and ladder play that are pretty different from the sample teams, that I think shows how diverse the metagame is.

1. Ting-Lu Hazards:


This team is super fun to use, since sun can make Ting-Lu really difficult to remove, giving you plenty of turns to set as many hazards as you’d like, or to whirlwind out big set up threats (or prevent TR). Then you can use Rillaboom to set up either Arceus or Zamazenta-Crowned to win. Zama-C can definitely go snarl over wide guard/protect, depending on how comfortable you are being mono-fighting attack on a set up wincon. Biggest threat to the team is Caly-Ice, but you can typically Tera Ting-Lu and whirlwind it, forcing it to take a bunch from hazards the next time it comes in, letting Arceus or Zama beat it (like see here).

2. Rain Trick Room


Trick Room maybe be the best way to play rain, since Calyrex-Ice takes out everything that Kyogre struggles to hit, and vice versa (just have to be careful around wide guard). The idea is pretty simple, setting TR up either through Annihilape Final Gambit + TR or Incin fake out support, then pivoting into the powerful TR sweepers. Basculegion is there to either end game sweep, pivot back into TR mons, or remove screens that typically would slow down TR teams. Lastly Iron Ball Kyogre is a fun way to help beat opposing Calyrex-Ice, as opposing Caly-Ice can often be tough to beat for TR.

3. Calyrex-Shadow + Fighting Types:


Obviously Calyrex-Shadow pairs extremely well with fighting types, so this team tries to take full advantage of this, utilizing the two best fighting types in the tier: Zamazenta & Koraidon. Amoonguss is still pretty good despite electric terrain being common, because even then you can just redirect attacks & heal. Caly-Shadow here opts for encore to take advantage of opponents passive plays, but absolutely can just run nasty plot in that slot instead. This team is a little weak to Calyrex-Ice (noticing a pattern?!), so you have to utilize your Tera-types well to beat it.

4. Groudon + Caly-Ice + Coaching:


Similar to the rain team above, Groudon & Caly-Ice can be extremely difficult to handle as well. This team is more of a semi-room team, able to play fast with speed boosting Walking Wake (which has excellent coverage for the tier) and Scarf Miraidon, so that when you get the chance to sweep with Caly-Ice you can take it. Coaching is a cool way to use Zama-C since it can also utilize wide guard and snarl to limit opposing special attackers. AV Groudon is a great recipient, due to its excellent coverage and massive bulk.

Now I’d like to take some time and give my personal viability rankings as it’s a little different than the official VR. Tiers 1-2 are ordered, but beyond that it’s very dependent on the rest of the team how good the Pokemon are.

Tier 1:
- An absolute monster, best pokemon in the tier. Very little is able to switch in on Caly-Ice’s attacks, to the point that in many games if it gets up TR it just wins. Has some good Tera type options between fire/dark for both defensive typings as well as preventing burns or priority status moves from slowing it down.

- Second best pokemon in the tier, it’s combination of bulk (especially when you just invest full in maximizing spdef), utility, and typing makes it maybe the most splashable pokemon. The steel/fighting combo makes it one of the best checks to the other two tier 1 pokemon, and utility moves like wide guard, coaching, snarl, etc makes it great into just about every offensive threat. On teams with proper redirection or support, Iron Defense sets just win games.

- Normal Arceus is pretty insane vs unprepared teams, as after a SD e-speed does insane damage, so every team needs to be prepared with resists & Tera typings. It has some good other options for the second attack slot between shadow claw or stomping tantrum, to hit steels & ghosts, preventing it from being walled. For Tera typing, it has some good options like normal, ghost, and fire (for burns). One very relevant calc to be aware of: +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Koraidon: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tier 2:
- Nothing balances offense & support quite like Groudon. Precipice Blades can be extremely difficult to switch into, leaving the other moves lots open for stuff like SR/Wisp/Roar/Spikes/Thunder Wave with good bulk investment. Or you can give it more attacks and go with more offensive investment, with items like CB/Clear Amulet. It also pairs extremely well with the best protosynthesis pokemon like Flutter Mane & Walking Wake. Tera water is great defensively, or Tera fire is great offensively.

- Nothing else hits as hard immediately like Miraidon, allowing it to either take kos or pivot out and come back in when the time is right. Specs/Scarf are its most common sets, but you can go with other options to give you more flexibility like LO or Magnet. Miraidon also has some good coverage, with moves like dazzling gleam or Overheat being able to take out top threats. The only issue, and why I think it’s t2 vs t1 like on the official VR, is there isn’t a ton of electric weaks in the tier. So even though it can chunk everything hard it doesn’t get a ton of OHKOs, unless on really frail pokemon.

- Calyrex-Shadow is obviously great at snowballing, but it also has a surprisingly lot of decent support options, allowing it to be both a sweeper vs unprepared/weakened teams, but then still have value against teams with multiple checks. Moves like Encore/Haze to stop set up, fast pollen puff to heal allies (goes especially well with Zamazenta-C), and imprison Trick Room to stop TR teams in their tracks; and thanks to the fact that it can just run Astral Barrage as its only real attack, it actually has room to fit these moves. Beyond that, obviously it can still run the good ol’ nasty plot sets, they just need to really be built around. The only downside to this thing is how it’s checks REALLY check it, anything with snarl or that resist ghost and can hit it back super effectively blanket this. Tera can help with those checks, but that’s enough to prevent it from being t1.

- An excellent Pokemon that hits extremely hard, has good coverage, and is able to set sun. AV with flame charge is probably its best set, but scarf can be great too. It can struggle a little to switch in on stuff (other than like water moves), but that’s okay because once it’s in it can just remove a lot of the biggest threats in the tier. Intimidate, opposing scarf attackers, & the prevalence of burns are the main thing holding this back, but obviously it can play or be built around those checks.

- Fireceus is the best fire pokemon in the game as its combination of bulk, coverage, and utility cannot be matched by anything else. Typically run alongside Groudon or Koraidon to set sun, its heat waves are amazing at spreading around damage, and then coverage moves like earth power or ice beam hit just about everything else.

- Groundceus is similar to Fireceus in that it just has a great offensive typing to go with good coverage moves and support. There’s multiple Tera types & moves that go well with this, allowing it to basically choose what it wants to beat. Pick any of ice beam/will-o-wisp/thunderbolt/SR/Tailwind/calm mind/protect/trick room/extremespeed, and you can’t go wrong.

- A little lower than Zama since it doesn’t have the same utility, and iron defense body press is insane, but what Zacian does have is excellent typing, speed, and power. Outspeeding the bikes with fairy attacks is great, sacred sword is excellent for dealing with incin’s intimidates, and behemoth blade breaks Calyrex-Ice. Dark/Normal types are fairly common as they’re needed to check Caly-Shadow, and this thing sends them to the shadow realm. Main thing holding it back is the typing doesn’t really let it switch in on much, and intimidate & burns can really shut it down. But as long as you avoid or play around those, Zacian is a beast.

- The best support pokemon in the tier, able to slow down a lot of the top threats with intimidate, will-o-wisp, and snarl, all while providing fake out support and slow pivoting back into your own threats. You can even run like flare blitz on Sun teams to deal surprisingly good damage, or knock off to take off Clear Amulets. Ya’ll know what this does.

- I think people are low on Kyogre because they think it still has the role of sweeping with water spouts & origin pulse. While it can do that with a lot of good positioning, its role in this metagame is more of one of general damage due to its great coverage, while turning off sun & having good matchups into pokemon like Caly-Ice. AV is great, as is just three attacks protect. Run those sets and you’ll see how it does like 200% of its hp in damage, since it hits most of the tier super effectively. Tera grass is the best Tera type, and as I’ve mentioned before, if you’re playing vs sun teams where the sun switch in is obvious, just click ice beam.

- Great on Sun teams as it outspeeds caly-shadow and the bikes, and can use icy wind for speed control. Then has good typing to beat the dragons & threaten Caly-Ice, while also being immune mostly to e-killer Arceus & Zamazenta, meaning it has a ton of value into the best pokemon in the tier.

Tier 3 (not ordered):
- Arguably the best defensive pokemon in the tier, since it can start as water typing then Tera into grass/electric as needed. Can be used for cosmic power set up, or just as a support mon with a ton of good support moves.

- Changing terrain on Miraidon & beating Kyogre, all while offering great support.

- Can be extremely oppressive if the opponent doesn’t know how to play around this since priority wisp is amazing at limiting all the physical attackers. Choose any four of Fake out/Will-o-wisp/Encore/Foul Play/Disable and you can’t go wrong.. just give it a focus sash.

- Has a great defensive profile into the top special attackers in the metagame, and is great as a hazard setter/whirlwinder.

- The premier screen setter, then can also utilize some good typing to actually deal damage. Parting shot is nice but can be hard to fit, as sucker punch/foul play, spirit break, and screens are all good.

- the best prankster tailwind mon, as fairy typing is decent, and has good disruption for all the set up sweepers with prankster encore. Fake tiers/charm can also be good.

- Sacred Fire can be really oppressive, and Ho-oh has good defensive stats and typing. Just wishes it had better coverage… but I have tested out just sacred fire/tailwind/Recover/Protect and that worked fine.

- A lot of people really like this, I’m not a huge fan, but can use both tailwind & TR and has some good stat distribution, just has to Tera a lot.

- Psychic terrain is great for stopping e-killer Arceus/Sableye, and drastically weaking Miraidon. Beyond that, redirection + TR + healing+ being immune to Caly-Shadow definitely gives this a place in the metagame.

- Has some worrisome speed ties with the bikes, but is pretty solid into a lot of the top threats.

Tier 4 (not ordered):

- hits a lot of big threats hard, scarf or LO with prankster tailwind is the way.

- Good special attacking fire mon and has access to tailwind. Fire/Dragon is solid typing too.

- Is pretty solid on Sun teams due to its great coverage and outspeeding non-scarf bikes.

: Being able to hit both Caly’s extremely hard is great, but needs speed control. Tera ghost is the best option, with either Sash/CB/Life Orb.

- Can snowball given the right circumstances, but needs a lot of dedicated support.

- Redirection + underspeeds Caly-Ice in TR with after you, and has some decent support moves.

/- Good stats with a solid defensive profile & trick room setter, as well as can do some fun telepathy stuff with like EQ/Discharge/etc.

/ - Same as with Dialga but has some different coverages.

- Worse than Whimsicott, but prankster tailwind is always good.

- Is good on rain teams as a late game sweeper, but teams should already be prepared for ghost moves due to Caly-Shadow.

- Redirection + healing is good, who knew?

- Probably the best cosmic power set up mon.

- Kinda mid, but can work on TR or just as a AV support mon, but burns are prevalent.

- Goes well on Miraidon teams, has good coverage & icy wind, as well as access to fun moves like wide/quick guard/coaching.

- Solid Scarf Mon due to its good spa and coverage moves and icy wind.

- Wouldn’t recommend this as you always have to Tera it, but I have seen it win games if the team is built around it.

- Hazards are pretty solid, and t spikes absorbers are rare.

- in sun can outspeed non-scarf bikes and beats caly-shadow, which is enough for a mention. Acceptable tailwind setter too.

- Ultra fast icy wind + hitting grasses & grounds has a little bit of value when paired with Miraidon. Just go with a focus sash.

- Can do a lot of weird fun stuff like decorate, or just eject pack moody on Fullroom teams.

- Prankster tailwind/quash, a ghost resist, and access to other support moves like haze gives this some value. Foul play or snarl are the only worthwhile attacking moves.

- Darkceus is okay, you likely want to use other forms. But if you need a caly-shadow switch-in that also does a bunch of other support stuff like tailwind/sr/etc, then this works in a pinch.

Tier 5 (not ordered):
- Prevents priority moves, sets TR, and mostly just clicks helping hand from there next to a Caly-Ice.

- preventing priority moves from e-killer arceus and sableye has value, grass typing is pretty good.

- Generally worse than like Arceus-Fire or Reshiram due to them having wayyyy higher stats, but can help out partners like Caly-Shadow, so has a small place.

- I know what you’re thinking, but this thing with AV using giga drain, foul play, pollen puff, and ruination/snarl is actually decent thanks to its good defensive profile, especially on stall teams.

- Scarf is the only real set, as a ghost with final gambit is pretty great for Fullroom, able to remove an opponents pokemon that’s threatening your TR setter, all while also allowing you a free switch into the next sweeper.

- Has a small place on Fullroom, so worth a mention.

- Has a tiny place in the metagame as a sun setter/TR check because it has a good matchup into Caly-Ice.

There’s probably a few other legendaries that could be mentioned in tier 5 here (especially various Arceus types), as high stats is always good, but they don’t really have dedicated roles in the metagame as everything they can do is done better by Pokemon above.

 

[Hupcosmommycar]

my problem with this is tr with miraidon looks really good since it prevent amoonguss sporing everything, what do you do in that case? this team looks really weak to miraidon

yeah i I added MIRI

 

[QNJ]

yeah i I added MIRI

Hey,
I don't think "adding miraidon as a counter to opposing miraidon is the best choice"
I think using a counter like zacian-c or a mon thats is immune like groudon is the best choice but since u already have kyogre groudon cant work. So i think using zacian-c over miraidon is best

 

[Hupcosmommycar]

Hey,
I don't think "adding miraidon as a counter to opposing miraidon is the best choice"
I think using a counter like zacian-c or a mon thats is immune like groudon is the best choice but since u already have kyogre groudon cant work. So i think using zacian-c over miraidon is best

tera fairy?
d gleam

 

[QNJ]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2303051549-ih19y6denv2fjlnlr9r0v6tb1w856hupw

Proof that rain sucks (even with support from tornadus)
Also this ain't low ladder or a team issue or a skill issue, we both made mistakes, I'm 1700 they were 1800 during the time of battle