Project Metagame Workshop

[Cuddly]

So from your examples, If I understand correctly, neither Ninetales-A nor Kingambit can get any legal moves in the meta and are forced to Struggle?

No they just get their regular movesets without any additional moves. So regular Ninetales and Bisharp can get all the newer generation moves, but Alolan Ninetales and Kingambit are stuck with their regular movepools.

Here are some cool example sets I thought of for OMNT

Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: [Fire Resistance]
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Shore Up
- Bullet Punch
- Mortal Spin
Scizor being Gen 2 gets access to moves from Gen 6-9. Salt Cure is great for fending off Steel and Water types, which normally resist Bullet Punch, as it puts them on a big timer. It is also great for this set as it gives Scizor a means to force Gholdengo out and allows it to Mortal Spin. You then have Shore Up or Strength Sap as options to recover HP, but Shore Up here is usually preferred.
The EVs here ensure Scizor can survive 2 Shadow Balls from Scarf Gholdengo.
This meta is also great because Scizor and many others lost options like Roost which they now get back a move that's similar.


Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark/Poison
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 124 Spe or 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Axe Kick
- Noxious Torque/Barb Barrage
- Wicked Torque
- Mach Punch/Mountain Gale
Conkeldurr is Gen 5 which means it only gets Gen 9 moves, but those moves are great for it because it now finally has access to better Sheer Force options. Just imagine trying to take on Sheer Force boosted Close Combat, Gunk Shot, and Wicked Blow, because you don't have to since Conkeldurr gets Axe Kick, 2 strong physical Poison moves, and Wicked Torque. You then can run Mountain Gale as an option that's way stronger than Ice Punch. Additionally you can run Mach Punch to get a jump on those faster Pokemon.
EV spread has 124 Speed to outspeed Clefable and 112 HP EVs if you decide to run Mach Punch so that Life Orb does less damage.


Alomomola @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Burning Bulwark
- Chilly Reception
- Mortal Spin
Pretty much standard Alomomola set, but with new Gen 9 moves and hazard removal too. Burning Bulwark provides burns for physical Pokemon who otherwise are scared of hitting you. Chilly Reception is a good option if you're not running a specific Weather or if you're running an anti-weather option (Minus Speed and 0 IVs are an option too). You do this while passing wishes from Mola's massive HP stat too.


Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderclap
- Electro Drift
- Freeze-Dry/Frost Breath
Pikachu is fun because of Light Ball making it hit hard with little drawback. Here, Pikachu can use Priority to bypass its slow speed, better and strong Electric STAB, and actually does get some special Ice coverage (fun fact there hasn't been a special Ice move since Gen 6) in Freeze-Dry and Frost Breath. The former hitting Water/Ground types, and the latter being stronger and bypassing SpD boosts and screens.

 

[Cuddly]

Sorry for double posting, but I would like some people’s opinions on the ruleset regarding bans and restrictions.


Safe to say the moves already banned from standard OU should stay banned. Unless someone objects. Now let’s talk about potential restricted moves (only available for Pokemon that learn it naturally).


In most metagames that hand out moves to Pokemon such as STABmons or Sketchmons, Shell Smash and Fillet Away are usually restricted. These moves likely will be restricted day one despite having more limitations.
Shell Smash is only given to Gen 1 Pokemon and native users, and Fillet Away is available to Gen 1-5 Pokemon and Veluza.
However you might be able to argue that Pokemon like Gyarados, Gengar, and Dragonite would be more of a problem and having Shell Smash Hypno would be less of an issue, though it likely still would on the weaker Gen 1 Pokemon.
What are your thoughts?


Quiver/Victory Dance will also likely become restricted too, for similar reasons and like they had been in other Move based Metagames.
And like with Shell Smash, Quiver Dance is only available to Gen 1 Pokemon and their are only a few users that would be broken with it in Gengar and Alakazam, which they themselves might be ban worthy instead.
Again what are your thoughts?


Another pair of controversal moves in Stored Power Trip. Between the 2 Power Trip might be more problematic since nothing is immune to Dark, and you have options of Coil and Shift Gear (subtle foreshadowing) on all Gen 1 Pokemon, and you also have Pokemon like Tyranitar that naturally get moves like Dragon Dance.
These moves are less broken so let me know what you think.


Shift Gear might be ok since its available only to Gen 1 Pokemon. And the Pokemon that can use them either have Dragon Dance already or are pretty bad like Arena Trapless Dugtrio or Snorlax.


I think Revival Blessing could be pretty crazy here being Gen 9 move and available on some Harvest Pokemon too. Likely would be ban worthy.


Rage Fist is arguably fine here, though probably not.
Thing about Rage Fist normally is that you could put it on Mimikyu, Ceruledge, or Dragapult, but here the best Physical Ghost types are Golurk and Dusknoir. So yeah your options are limited for STAB.
However most Pokemon get Rage Fist and healing moves too, which could be a problem.


Even more busted set up moves


There is a reason why Decidueye-H and Smeargle are the only legal Pokemon to use this move.


Gigaton Hammer has massive base power, but might not be as ban worth as it is in STABmon or Sketchmons. Only Metagross, Scizor, Lucario, and Excadrill get while also having STAB and really high Atks.


Boomburst I think is actually fine in this Metagame. There are only 2 relevant users in Porygon2 and Girafarig, neither of which are that Strong outside of Boomburst.


Wicked Blow and Wicked Torque are both restricted in STABmons and that’s pretty understandable there. There are still Pokemon that would be very powerful with Wicked Blow like Weavile, Crawdaunt, and Kingdra, and allowing moves that have 10% chance to sleep sounds pretty uncompetitive (subtle foreshadowing). Especially with Serene Grace.
What do you think?


No

Now on to Pokemon


Dragonite has a very powerful kit as is, especially with Tera. It is a pretty common suspect in many OMs because that Tera Blast Flying just becomes Dragon Ascent paired with Headlong Rush. You then also get Coil, Shift Gear, and tons more options. Likely will be banned as a whole.


Jirachi is already very annoying and arguably uncompetitive (how 60% to 70% chance to lose a turn is fine but not 25% chance is beyond me) and that is amplified more here.
You get to have paralysis options like Combat Torque or Wildbolt Storm, and Flinching options like Zing Zap and Mountain Gale. You then can give Jirachi other options like Malignant Chain for 100% toxic chances, those Hex/Venoshock clones from Hisuimons, the other Torque moves other than Combat and Wicked Torque, and this becomes a whole mess of uncompetitive elements on top of the uncompetitive element of trying to guess what Jirachi is running too.

And lastly

Terastallization has been pretty controversal and is commonly banned. I personally like Tera but can see why others might want it banned. It lets strong set up sweepers get a potential free turn and makes them more powerful, and most OMs have many powerful set up sweepers.

 

[VannAccessible]

You could have some mons with neutral -> SE but most neutral -> neutral (however this would be hard to code, so only use as a last resort).

I gave High ‘n Dry a bit more thought, and this is relatively where I landed after taking into account everyone’s input on how overly volatile the type chart would become as I originally envisioned it.

An alternative I came up with could be that rather than allow players to chose their enhanced type effectiveness, instead we could standardize the extra effectiveness based on type of the low BP attack used, with each type would have its own individualized single extra effectiveness. For example, going back to Freeze-Dry as the go to example, we could make it so that all low powered Ice moves hit Water for SE damage.

I’d be open to a group discussion on what makes the most sense for enhanced coverage on each type from a balance, mechanical and logical standpoint.

Standardization would make everything more predictable/stable, and it would also eliminate the need for a Tera type preview. The trade off with this approach is that players would need to investigate what the new type interactions would be, as they would exist on a type by type basis, but that sort of need for meta knowledge exists in most OMs to be successful on ladder.

Furthermore, to eliminate the need of a Move Restriction list and make everything much more readable, I can further refine the Dry Moves Clause in this way:

“Attack moves default to a minimum of 70 base power, excluding priority moves, pivot moves, multi-hit moves and variable BP moves.

All 70 BP moves have an extra type effectiveness, based on the type of that attack.”

Would these changes make the premise more palatable in your opinion, KaenSoul?

————

Cuddly I like Old Mons New Tricks but balance would be challenging on a similar level to Balanced Hackmons. You’d def need a beefy move ban list.

I like the fact that older mons’ stats are less minmaxed, but benefit more from getting access to a larger pool of new moves.

A 4 gen gap sounds good to me!

 

[Cuddly]

I gave High ‘n Dry a bit more thought, and this is relatively where I landed after taking into account everyone’s input on how overly volatile the type chart would become as I originally envisioned it.

An alternative I came up with could be that rather than allow players to chose their enhanced type effectiveness, instead we could standardize the extra effectiveness based on type of the low BP attack used, with each type would have its own individualized extra effectiveness. For example, going back to Freeze-Dry as the go to example, we could make it so that all low powered Ice moves hit Water for SE damage. I’d be open to a group discussion on what makes the most sense for enhanced coverage on each type from a balance, mechanical and logical standpoint.

Standardization would make everything more predictable/stable, and it would also eliminate the need for a Tera type preview. The trade off with this approach is that players would need to investigate what the new type interactions would be, as they would exist on a type by type basis, but that sort of need for meta knowledge exists in most OMs to be successful on ladder.

Furthermore, to eliminate the need of a Move Restriction list and make everything much more readable, I can further refine the Dry Moves Clause in this way:

“Attack moves default to a minimum of 70 base power, excluding priority moves, pivot moves, multi-hit moves and variable BP moves.

All 70 BP moves have an extra type effectiveness, based on the type of that attack.”

Would these changes make the premise more palatable in your opinion, KaenSoul?

————

Cuddly I like Old Mons New Tricks but balance would be challenging on a similar level to Balanced Hackmons. You’d def need a beefy move ban list.

I like the fact that older mons’ stats are less minmaxed, but benefit more from getting access to a larger pool of new moves.

A 4 gen gap sounds good to me!

Yeah I imagine the ban list will be similar to ones from STABmons and Sketchmons, but smaller since some moves like Extreme Speed or Belly Drum have no way of getting on new users, while moves like Boomburst have Porygon2 and Girafarig as the only Normal type special attackers that could abuse it.

 

[TeaThymeLine]

Hello everyone, hope you're doing great. I saw that some of us haven't been idle lately and kept proposing new ideas
I'm delivering this one to you, I can tell you I spent a lot of (maybe too much) time formatting so I hope you'll enjoy reading !

DISTYPES​

Premise :​

All Pokémon now have dual types, with the particularity that one give the weaknesses (and resistances) while the other the STAB.

Rules :​

• The first type (shown to the left) always defines the weaknesses while the second (shown to the right) the STAB ;
• Single type Pokemon get a second type based on the type of the first special/physical move they learn* apart from their initial one, while dual types are untouched ;
• The "STAB" type can't be altered, whether it's by moves (Conversion, Soak...), abilities (Protean, Libero...) or other mechanics (Terastalizing). The only exceptions are Transform and Ditto's ability Imposter, which change it completely along the "weaknesses" type.

[*by level starting their first evolution stage, not by teaching or breeding. See in the Resources>Related Informations part below]

Clauses

Endless Battle Clause
Evasion Clause : moves that increase evasion are banned
Freeze Clause : only one foe can be frozen per game
OHKO Clause
Sleep Clause : only one foe can be put to sleep per game
Species Clause

Potential Bans :​

Abilities

Arena Trap
Moody
Shadow Tag

Items

Bright Powder
King's Rock

Moves

Baton Pass
Last Respects

Pokemon

Arceus (all forms)
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Chi-Yu
Chien-Pao
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga (both forms)
Espathra
Eternatus
Flutter-Mane
Giratina (both forms)
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Iron Bundle
Kyogre
Kyurem-Black
Kyurem-White
Landorus
Lunala
Magearna
Mewtwo
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Palafin (both forms)
Palkia (both forms)
Rayquaza
Shaymin-Sky
Spectrier
Urshifu
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Zacian (both forms)
Zamazenta (both forms)
Zekrom

Increased Viability :​

Generally speaking, most Steel/--- Pokemon are more likely to be advantaged in this metagame, as they resist the best among the others. One could mention Bronzong on the defensive part, as it exchanges its weaknesses to Dark and Ghost with Fighting, while still immune to Ground type moves thanks to Levitate ; on the offensive part, Pokemon with various coverage moves and options like Jirachi or Hisuian-Goodra get a better presence on the field.

For other types, one could mention Volcanion, as it becomes better, losing its vulnerability to Electrick type and resisting to Grass type, while keeping its immunity to Water type moves thanks to Water Absorb. Its reasonnable bulk plus its coverage Water/Ground (Grass against Clodsire in sun-based teams) coupled with its high SpA makes it a valuable asset even more.

Q&A :​

Q1 : Would Leech Seed work against a ---/Grass Pokemon ? What about Toxic against a ---/Poison or Will-O-Wisp against a ---/Fire type ?
A1 : Yes, they would, as long as the foe doesn't have its first type or an ability immune to any of the status ailment one would like to inflict.

Q2 : Does the rule about the STAB type mean that my Pokemon can't get a second one upon terastalizing ?
A2 : No, Terastalizing still count as "giving a bonus STAB", it's just that the transformation itself will only affect the first of the combined types. For example, if a Corviknight terastalize into Ground, its type would become Ground/Steel so that it could gain a Ground STAB on top of the Steel one.

Questions for the community :​

Should I review the rule of giving a second type to single type Pokemon ?
Do you find it interesting and/or necessary ?

Resources :​

Council

None

Playability

On approval

Related Informations

Single type Pokemon have a second type in this metagame, determined by three main characteristics :

1. whether or not they have evolution. If it's the case, their second type is then determined by their first stage (assuming they match the next condition) ;
2. it has to be related to the first physical/special move they learn upon leveling ;
3. if there're no moves of a different type that they can learn, they'll have the same type for both weaknesses and STAB. In this specific case, their final type will be shown as usual.

Playable single type Pokemon under the current metagame banlist

Aipom -> Ambipom Normal Ghost
Alomomola Water Water
Arrokuda -> Barraskewda Water Normal
Axew -> Fraxure -> Haxorus Dragon Dark
Azelf Psychic Normal
Bagon -> Shelgon Dragon Dark
Basculin (three forms included) Water Normal
Bellossom Grass Poison
Bergmite -> Avalugg Ice Normal
Blitzle -> Zebstrika Electric Fire
Bonsly -> Sudowoodo Rock Normal
Bounsweet -> Steenee -> Tsareena Grass Normal
Buizel -> Floatzel Water Normal
Cacnea Grass Poison
Capsakid Grass Dark
Cetoddle -> Cetitan Ice Normal
Charcadet Fire Poison
Charmander -> Charmeleon Fire Dragon
Chespin -> Quilladin Grass Rock
Chewtle Water Dark
Chikorita -> Bayleef -> Meganium Grass Normal
Chimchar Fire Normal
Chingling -> Chimecho Psychic Ghost
Clauncher -> Clawitzer Water Normal
Clefa -> Clefairy -> Clefable Fairy Psychic
Comfey Fairy Grass
Corphish Water Dark
Cosmog -> Cosmovum Psychic Psychic
Crabrawler Fighting Water
Cranidos -> Rampardos Rock Normal
Cresselia Psychic Ice
Cryogonal Ice Normal
Cubchoo -> Beartic Ice Normal
Cufant -> Copperajah Steel Rock
Cyndaquil -> Quilava -> Typhlosion Fire Normal
Darkrai Dark Normal
Deoxys (all forms) Psychic Ghost
Diglett -> Dugtrio Ground Ghost
Ditto Normal Normal
Dondozo Water Normal
Dratini -> Dragonair Dragon Normal
Drilbur Ground Normal
Drowzee -> Hypno Psychic Normal
Dunsparce -> Dudunsparce Normal Ground
Duskull -> Dusclops -> Dusknoir Ghost Dark
Eevee (+ any eeveelutions) Normal/Water/Electric/Fire/Psychic/Dark/Grass/Ice/Fairy Dark
Eiscue Ice Normal
Ekans -> Arbok Poison Dark
Elekid -> Electabuzz -> Electivire Electric Normal
Entei Fire Dark
Espurr -> Meowstic Psychic Normal
Falinks Fighting Normal
Feebas -> Milotic Water Normal
Fennekin -> Braixen Fire Psychic
Fidough -> Dachsbun Fairy Ghost
Finizen -> Palafin Water Ghost
Finneon -> Lumineon Water Flying
Flabebe -> Floette -> Florges Fairy Grass
Flittle -> Espathra Psychic Fairy
Fomantis -> Lurantis Grass Normal
Froakie -> Frogadier Water Normal
Fuecoco -> Crocalor Fire Normal
Gimmighoul Ghost Ghost
Glastrier Ice Fighting
Goomy -> Sliggoo -> Goodra Dragon Water
Gothita -> Gothorita -> Gothitelle Psychic Psychic
Greavard -> Houndstone Ghost Dark
Grimer -> Muk Poison Ground
Grookey -> Thwackey -> Rillaboom Grass Dark
Growlithe -> Arcanine Fire Dark
Grubbin Bug Dark
Gulpin -> Swalot Poison Normal
Happiny -> Chansey -> Blissey Normal Fairy
Hatenna -> Hattrem Psychic Fairy
Hippopotas -> Hippodown Ground Dark
Hitmonchan Fighting Steel
Hitmonlee Fighting Dark
Hitmontop Fighting Normal
Horsea -> Seadra Water Dragon
Illumise Bug Normal
Jangmo-o Dragon Normal
Klawf Rock Fighting
Koffing -> Weezing Poison Dark
Komala Normal Dark
Kricketot -> Kricketune Bug Grass
Kubfu Fighting Flying
Lechonk -> Oinkologne Normal Fairy
Litten -> Torracat Fire Ghost
Luvdisc Water Fairy
Magby -> Magmar -> Magmortar Fire Normal
Magikarp Water Normal
Makuhita -> Hariyama Fighting Normal
Manaphy Water Water
Mankey -> Primeape Fighting Normal
Mareep -> Flaafy -> Ampharos Electric Normal
Maschiff -> Mabosstiff Dark Ghost
Meowth -> Persian Normal Dark
Meowth-Alola -> Persian-Alola Dark Normal
Meowth-Galar -> Perrserker Steel Normal
Mesprit Psychic Normal
Mienfoo -> Mienshao Fighting Normal
Milcery -> Alcremie Fairy Fairy
Minccino -> Cinccino Normal Normal
Minun Electric Normal
Misdreavus -> Mismagius Ghost Psychic
Mudbray -> Mudsdale Ground Fighting
Mudkip Water Fighting
Munchlax -> Snorlax Normal Dark
Nacli -> Naclstack -> Garganacl Rock Ground
Necrozma Psychic Normal
Nosepass Rock Electric
Nymble Bug Ghost
Ogerpon Grass Normal
Orthworm Steel Ground
Oshawott -> Dewott -> Samurott Water Insect
Pachirisu Electric Normal
Passimian Fighting Dark
Pawmi -> Pawmo Electric Normal
Petitil -> Lilligant Grass Grass
Phanpy -> Donphan Ground Normal
Phione Water Water
Pichu -> Pikachu -> Raichu Electric Normal
Pincurchin Electric Water
Pineco Bug Normal
Piplup -> Prinplup Water Flying
Plusle Electric Normal
Poliwag -> Poliwhirl -> Politoed Water Normal
Poochyena -> Mightyena Dark Ground
Popplio -> Brionne Water Fairy
Porygon -> Porygon2 -> Porygon-Z Normal Electric
Psyduck -> Golduck Water Psychic
Quaxly -> Qwaxwell Water Flying
Raikou Electric Dark
Regice Ice Ground
Regidrago Dragon Dark
Regieleki Electric Rock
Regigigas Normal Dark
Regirock Rock Ground
Registeel Steel Ground
Rellor Bug Rock
Riolu Fighting Normal
Rockruff -> Lycanroc Rock Dark
Rolycoly Rock Normal
Rookidee -> Corvisquire Flying Dark
Sandshrew -> Sandslash Ground Poison
Scatterbug -> Spewpa Bug Bug
Scorbunny -> Raboot -> Cinderace Fire Normal
Seedot Grass Ghost
Seel Water Ice
Sentret -> Furret Normal Dark
Seviper Poison Dark
Shaymin Grass Fairy
Shellder Water Ice
Shellos Water Rock
Shinx -> Luxio -> Luxray Electric Dark
Shroomish Grass Normal
Shuppet -> Banette Ghost Dark
Silicobra -> Sandaconda Ground Dark
Sinistea -> Polteageist Ghost Grass
Skiddo -> Gogoat Grass Normal
Skwovet -> Greedent Normal Dark
Slackoth -> Vigoroth -> Slaking Normal Dark
Slowpoke-Galar Psychic Poison
Slugma Fire Rock
Smeargle Normal Normal
Snorunt -> Glalie Ice Dark
Snubbull -> Granbull Fairy Dark
Sobble -> Drizzile -> Inteleon Water Normal
Solosis -> Duosion -> Reuniclus Psychic Psychic
Spoink -> Grumpig Psychic Rock
Sprigatito -> Floragato Grass Dark
Squirtle -> Wartortle -> Blastoise Water Normal
Stantler Normal Ghost
Stonjourner Rock Normal
Suicune Water Dark
Sunkern -> Sunflora Grass Normal
Tadbulb -> Bellibolt Electric Water
Tandemaus -> Maushold Normal Grass
Tarountula -> Spidops Bug Dark
Tauros Normal Dark
Tauros-Paldea-Combat Fighting Dark
Teddiursa -> Ursaring Normal Dark
Teppig Fire Poison
Tornadus Flying Dark
Totodile -> Croconaw -> Feraligatr Water Dark
Turtwig -> Grotle Grass Dark
Tynamo -> Eelektrik -> Eelektross Electric Dark
Tyrogue Fighting Fighting
Timburr -> Gurdurr -> Conkeldurr Fighting Rock
Torchic Fire Normal
Trapinch Ground Dark
Treecko -> Grovyle -> Sceptile Grass Normal
Uxie Psychic Normal
Volbeat Bug Normal
Voltorb -> Electrode Electric Rock
Vulpix -> Ninetails Fire Normal
Vulpix-Alola Ice Psychic
Wiglett -> Wugtrio Water Ground
Yungoos -> Gumshoos Normal Dark
Zangoose Normal Bug
Zorua -> Zoroark Dark Normal

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Doesn’t this just reduce the diversity that Pokemon have? Pokemon now have much less incentive to use former STAB moves and more of them will have the same defensive profiles.

 

[TeaThymeLine]

Doesn’t this just reduce the diversity that Pokemon have? Pokemon now have much less incentive to use former STAB moves and more of them will have the same defensive profiles.

Well, yes, unavoidably. The core of this metagame is to give one type for one role, and it's clear that what'll make you choose one Pokemon rather than another depends on how you can take advantage of it. An added value is that double weaknesses and resistances are no more, so setup are maybe safer on bulky Pokemon.

I notably think about Pokemon like Coalossal or Drednaw, which could come without fearing surprise countermeasures.

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

Hello everyone, hope you're doing great. I saw that some of us haven't been idle lately and kept proposing new ideas
I'm delivering this one to you, I can tell you I spent a lot of (maybe too much) time formatting so I hope you'll enjoy reading !

DISTYPES​

Premise :​

All Pokémon now have dual types, with the particularity that one give the weaknesses (and resistances) while the other the STAB.

Rules :​

• The first type (shown to the left) always defines the weaknesses while the second (shown to the right) the STAB ;
• Single type Pokemon get a second type based on the type of the first special/physical move they learn* apart from their initial one, while dual types are untouched ;
• The "STAB" type can't be altered, whether it's by moves (Conversion, Soak...), abilities (Protean, Libero...) or other mechanics (Terastalizing). The only exceptions are Transform and Ditto's ability Imposter, which change it completely along the "weaknesses" type.

[*by level starting their first evolution stage, not by teaching or breeding. See in the Resources>Related Informations part below]

Clauses

Endless Battle Clause
Evasion Clause : moves that increase evasion are banned
Freeze Clause : only one foe can be frozen per game
OHKO Clause
Sleep Clause : only one foe can be put to sleep per game
Species Clause

Potential Bans :​

Abilities

Arena Trap
Moody
Shadow Tag

Items

Bright Powder
King's Rock

Moves

Baton Pass
Last Respects

Pokemon

Arceus (all forms)
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Chi-Yu
Chien-Pao
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga (both forms)
Espathra
Eternatus
Flutter-Mane
Giratina (both forms)
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Iron Bundle
Kyogre
Kyurem-Black
Kyurem-White
Landorus
Lunala
Magearna
Mewtwo
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Palafin (both forms)
Palkia (both forms)
Rayquaza
Shaymin-Sky
Spectrier
Urshifu
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Zacian (both forms)
Zamazenta (both forms)
Zekrom

Increased Viability :​

Generally speaking, most Steel/--- Pokemon are more likely to be advantaged in this metagame, as they resist the best among the others. One could mention Bronzong on the defensive part, as it exchanges its weaknesses to Dark and Ghost with Fighting, while still immune to Ground type moves thanks to Levitate ; on the offensive part, Pokemon with various coverage moves and options like Jirachi or Hisuian-Goodra get a better presence on the field.

For other types, one could mention Volcanion, as it becomes better, losing its vulnerability to Electrick type and resisting to Grass type, while keeping its immunity to Water type moves thanks to Water Absorb. Its reasonnable bulk plus its coverage Water/Ground (Grass against Clodsire in sun-based teams) coupled with its high SpA makes it a valuable asset even more.

Q&A :​

Q1 : Would Leech Seed work against a ---/Grass Pokemon ? What about Toxic against a ---/Poison or Will-O-Wisp against a ---/Fire type ?
A1 : Yes, they would, as long as the foe doesn't have its first type or an ability immune to any of the status ailment one would like to inflict.

Q2 : Does the rule about the STAB type mean that my Pokemon can't get a second one upon terastalizing ?
A2 : No, Terastalizing still count as "giving a bonus STAB", it's just that the transformation itself will only affect the first of the combined types. For example, if a Corviknight terastalize into Ground, its type would become Ground/Steel so that it could gain a Ground STAB on top of the Steel one.

Questions for the community :​

Should I review the rule of giving a second type to single type Pokemon ?
Do you find it interesting and/or necessary ?

Resources :​

Council

None

Playability

On approval

Related Informations

Single type Pokemon have a second type in this metagame, determined by three main characteristics :

1. whether or not they have evolution. If it's the case, their second type is then determined by their first stage (assuming they match the next condition) ;
2. it has to be related to the first physical/special move they learn upon leveling ;
3. if there're no moves of a different type that they can learn, they'll have the same type for both weaknesses and STAB. In this specific case, their final type will be shown as usual.

Playable single type Pokemon under the metagame banlist

Aipom -> Ambipom Normal Ghost
Alomomola -> Water Water
Arrokuda -> Barraskewda Water Normal
Axew -> Fraxure -> Haxorus Dragon Dark
Azelf Psychic Normal
Bagon -> Shelgon Dragon Dark
Basculin (three forms included) Water Normal
Bellossom Grass Poison
Bergmite -> Avalugg Ice Normal
Blitzle -> Zebstrika Electric Fire
Bonsly -> Sudowoodo Rock Normal
Bounsweet -> Steenee -> Tsareena Grass Normal
Buizel -> Floatzel Water Normal
Cacnea Grass Poison
Capsakid Grass Dark
Cetoddle -> Cetitan Ice Normal
Charcadet Fire Poison
Charmander -> Charmeleon Fire Dragon
Chespin -> Quilladin Grass Rock
Chewtle Water Dark
Chikorita -> Bayleef -> Meganium Grass Normal
Chimchar Fire Normal
Chingling -> Chimecho Psychic Ghost
Clauncher -> Clawitzer Water Normal
Clefa -> Clefairy -> Clefable Fairy Psychic
Comfey Fairy Grass
Corphish Water Dark
Cosmog -> Cosmovum Psychic Psychic
Crabrawler Fighting Water
Cranidos -> Rampardos Rock Normal
Cresselia Psychic Ice
Cryogonal Ice Normal
Cubchoo -> Beartic Ice Normal
Cufant -> Copperajah Steel Rock
Cyndaquil -> Quilava -> Typhlosion Fire Normal
Darkrai Dark Normal
Deoxys (all forms) Psychic Ghost
Diglett -> Dugtrio Ground Ghost
Ditto Normal Normal
Dondozo Water Normal
Dratini -> Dragonair Dragon Normal
Drilbur Ground Normal
Drowzee -> Hypno Psychic Normal
Dunsparce -> Dudunsparce Normal Ground
Duskull -> Dusclops -> Dusknoir Ghost Dark
Eevee (+ any eeveelutions) Normal/Water/Electric/Fire/Psychic/Dark/Grass/Ice/Fairy Dark
Eiscue Ice Normal
Ekans -> Arbok Poison Dark
Elekid -> Electabuzz -> Electivire Electric Normal
Entei Fire Dark
Espurr -> Meowstic Psychic Normal
Falinks Fighting Normal
Feebas -> Milotic Water Normal
Fennekin -> Braixen Fire Psychic
Fidough -> Dachsbun Fairy Ghost
Finizen -> Palafin Water Ghost
Finneon -> Lumineon Water Flying
Flabebe -> Floette -> Florges Fairy Grass
Flittle -> Espathra Psychic Fairy
Fomantis -> Lurantis Grass Normal
Froakie -> Frogadier Water Normal
Fuecoco -> Crocalor Fire Normal
Gimmighoul Ghost Ghost
Glastrier Ice Fighting
Goomy -> Sliggoo -> Goodra Dragon Water
Gothita -> Gothorita -> Gothitelle Psychic Psychic
Greavard -> Houndstone Ghost Dark
Grimer -> Muk Poison Ground
Grookey -> Thwackey -> Rillaboom Grass Dark
Growlithe -> Arcanine Fire Dark
Grubbin Bug Dark
Gulpin -> Swalot Poison Normal
Happiny -> Chansey -> Blissey Normal Fairy
Hatenna -> Hattrem Psychic Fairy
Hippopotas -> Hippodown Ground Dark
Hitmonchan Fighting Steel
Hitmonlee Fighting Dark
Hitmontop Fighting Normal
Horsea -> Seadra Water Dragon
Illumise Bug Normal
Jangmo-o Dragon Normal
Klawf Rock Fighting
Koffing -> Weezing Poison Dark
Komala Normal Dark
Kricketot -> Kricketune Bug Grass
Kubfu Fighting Flying
Lechonk -> Oinkologne Normal Fairy
Litten -> Torracat Fire Ghost
Luvdisc Water Fairy
Magby -> Magmar -> Magmortar Fire Normal
Magikarp Water Normal
Makuhita -> Hariyama Fighting Normal
Manaphy Water Water
Mankey -> Primeape Fighting Normal
Mareep -> Flaafy -> Ampharos Electric Normal
Maschiff -> Mabosstiff Dark Ghost
Meowth -> Persian Normal Dark
Meowth-Alola -> Persian-Alola Dark Normal
Meowth-Galar -> Perrserker Steel Normal
Mesprit Psychic Normal
Mienfoo -> Mienshao Fighting Normal
Milcery -> Alcremie Fairy Fairy
Minccino -> Cinccino Normal Normal
Minun Electric Normal
Misdreavus -> Mismagius Ghost Psychic
Mudbray -> Mudsdale Ground Fighting
Mudkip Water Fighting
Munchlax -> Snorlax Normal Dark
Nacli -> Naclstack -> Garganacl Rock Ground
Necrozma Psychic Normal
Nosepass Rock Electric
Nymble Bug Ghost
Ogerpon Grass Normal
Orthworm Steel Ground
Oshawott -> Dewott -> Samurott Water Insect
Pachirisu Electric Normal
Passimian Fighting Dark
Pawmi -> Pawmo Electric Normal
Petitil -> Lilligant Grass Grass
Phanpy -> Donphan Ground Normal
Phione Water Water
Pichu -> Pikachu -> Raichu Electric Normal
Pincurchin Electric Water
Pineco Bug Normal
Piplup -> Prinplup Water Flying
Plusle Electric Normal
Poliwag -> Poliwhirl -> Politoed Water Normal
Poochyena -> Mightyena Dark Ground
Popplio -> Brionne Water Fairy
Porygon -> Porygon2 -> Porygon-Z Normal Electric
Psyduck -> Golduck Water Psychic
Quaxly -> Qwaxwell Water Flying
Raikou Electric Dark
Regice Ice Ground
Regidrago Dragon Dark
Regieleki Electric Rock
Regigigas Normal Dark
Regirock Rock Ground
Registeel Steel Ground
Rellor Bug Rock
Riolu Fighting Normal
Rockruff -> Lycanroc Rock Dark
Rolycoly Rock Normal
Rookidee -> Corvisquire Flying Dark
Sandshrew -> Sandslash Ground Poison
Scatterbug -> Spewpa Bug Bug
Scorbunny -> Raboot -> Cinderace Fire Normal
Seedot Grass Ghost
Seel Water Ice
Sentret -> Furret Normal Dark
Seviper Poison Dark
Shaymin Grass Fairy
Shellder Water Ice
Shellos Water Rock
Shinx -> Luxio -> Luxray Electric Dark
Shroomish Grass Normal
Shuppet -> Banette Ghost Dark
Silicobra -> Sandaconda Ground Dark
Sinistea -> Polteageist Ghost Grass
Skiddo -> Gogoat Grass Normal
Skwovet -> Greedent Normal Dark
Slackoth -> Vigoroth -> Slaking Normal Dark
Slowpoke-Galar Psychic Poison
Slugma Fire Rock
Smeargle Normal Normal
Snorunt -> Glalie Ice Dark
Snubbull -> Granbull Fairy Dark
Sobble -> Drizzile -> Inteleon Water Normal
Solosis -> Duosion -> Reuniclus Psychic Psychic
Spoink -> Grumpig Psychic Rock
Sprigatito -> Floragato Grass Dark
Squirtle -> Wartortle -> Blastoise Water Normal
Stantler Normal Ghost
Stonjourner Rock Normal
Suicune Water Dark
Sunkern -> Sunflora Grass Normal
Tadbulb -> Bellibolt Electric Water
Tandemaus -> Maushold Normal Grass
Tarountula -> Spidops Bug Dark
Tauros Normal Dark
Tauros-Paldea-Combat Fighting Dark
Teddiursa -> Ursaring Normal Dark
Teppig Fire Poison
Tornadus Flying Dark
Totodile -> Croconaw -> Feraligatr Water Dark
Turtwig -> Grotle Grass Dark
Tynamo -> Eelektrik -> Eelektross Electric Dark
Tyrogue Fighting Fighting
Timburr -> Gurdurr -> Conkeldurr Fighting Rock
Torchic Fire Normal
Trapinch Ground Dark
Treecko -> Grovyle -> Sceptile Grass Normal
Uxie Psychic Normal
Volbeat Bug Normal
Voltorb -> Electrode Electric Rock
Vulpix -> Ninetails Fire Normal
Vulpix-Alola Ice Psychic
Wiglett -> Wugtrio Water Ground
Yungoos -> Gumshoos Normal Dark
Zangoose Normal Bug
Zorua -> Zoroark Dark Normal

I feel like having the first level up move as the secondary type determining seems a bit wrong- for one it would be complicated to code, and it would also restrict creativity even more then this meta already has. I think having it as the first move slot would work fine, as then it has creativity to it- if they don't, maybe make their types work as normal. Just a personal opinion, so you don't have to listen, just my personal takes on the matter

 

[Blizihguh]

Doesn’t this just reduce the diversity that Pokemon have? Pokemon now have much less incentive to use former STAB moves and more of them will have the same defensive profiles.

I don't think diversity is the right word here -- different dual typings are still notably different even if they share a type. A steel/fire type will have the same defensive profile as a steel/ghost type, for instance, but only the former is able to hit other steels for super effective damage with its STAB. In fact, this actually increases type diversity, in the sense that a fire/steel type is now meaningfully different from a steel/fire type. A lot of mons lose versatility, though.

The meta seems like it would be a lot bulkier. Offensive mons now have one fewer STAB; nothing has any 4x weaknesses; many types only have a few weaknesses, and now you can have a good mono-attacking STAB without having that type's weaknesses. Mons like Aggron and Rhyperior are really winning here, for example. Possible that stall would be a problem, though many stall mons lose their useful dual types. Bulky offense seems very powerful though.

 

[TeaThymeLine]

I feel like having the first level up move as the secondary type determining seems a bit wrong- for one it would be complicated to code, and it would also restrict creativity even more then this meta already has. I think having it as the first move slot would work fine, as then it has creativity to it- if they don't, maybe make their types work as normal. Just a personal opinion, so you don't have to listen, just my personal takes on the matter

I was hesitant to go and write instead something like "players can choose the STAB type with the first moveslot". If I did it, then this rule would apply even for dual-type Pokemon (as it would be fair). I agree with you that it's better than to code the second type for each single-type Pokemon, I simply focused on making compromises so that there'd be fixed second types for any of them.

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

The meta seems like it would be a lot bulkier. Offensive mons now have one fewer STAB; nothing has any 4x weaknesses; many types only have a few weaknesses, and now you can have a good mono-attacking STAB without having that type's weaknesses. Mons like Aggron and Rhyperior are really winning here, for example. Possible that stall would be a problem, though many stall mons lose their useful dual types. Bulky offense seems very powerful though.

Toxapex doesn't really lose since as a primary Poison type it has a useful Defensive type, loses an electric weakness, and since it doesn't really use STAB moves that much (maybe with the exception of Chilling Water), it would function basically the same but with a slightly worse typing (3 Weaknesses and 8 resistances before 2 weaknesses 5 resistances after) without having to worry about strong electric typrs

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

I might be yapping about nothing though

 

[Ihateclodsire]

Actibilities
A metagame where abilities that only activate under certain circumstances are always active
Examples:
-Usually, blaze only activates when a Pokemon is at 1/3 hp or less. But in this metagame you always get the fire boost. You could use typhlosion and always get a 50% boost to eruption.

-Rain dish would always give health recovery every turn, even if rain isn’t up

It may be difficult to code, but it’s just a fun idea I thought of.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Actibilities
A metagame where abilities that only activate under certain circumstances are always active
Examples:
-Usually, blaze only activates when a Pokemon is at 1/3 hp or less. But in this metagame you always get the fire boost. You could use typhlosion and always get a 50% boost to eruption.

-Rain dish would always give health recovery every turn, even if rain isn’t up

It may be difficult to code, but it’s just a fun idea I thought of.

I remember theorizing a similar concept a few years back, though that included removing all types of constrictions for both moves and abilities. We ended up scrapping the idea because it became very complex mapping all the changes. I still think it’s interesting as a concept though, and abilities alone might make it more doable.

A strict definition of the premise is necessary to clear up how each ability is effected.

Going through all of the abilities and listing out the changes would be a good start here. For example:

Does Good as Gold block every type of move now? Does Magic Guard block all types of damage? Does Zamazenta always get a defence boost? Does Weak armor raise speed everytime it’s attacked? Etc.

Defining the «rule» and listing out how abilities in the grey area is necessary to proceede imo. For example, if ability does X only(?) under the condition Y, X will now always happen.

 

[Ihateclodsire]

Actibilities
A metagame where abilities that only activate under certain circumstances are always active
Examples:
-Usually, blaze only activates when a Pokemon is at 1/3 hp or less. But in this metagame you always get the fire boost. You could use typhlosion and always get a 50% boost to eruption.

-Rain dish would always give health recovery every turn, even if rain isn’t up

It may be difficult to code, but it’s just a fun idea I thought of.

I remember theorizing a similar concept a few years back, though that included removing all types of constrictions for both moves and abilities. We ended up scrapping the idea because it became very complex mapping all the changes. I still think it’s interesting as a concept though, and abilities alone might make it more doable.

A strict definition of the premise is necessary to clear up how each ability is effected.

Going through all of the abilities and listing out the changes would be a good start here. For example:

Does Good as Gold block every type of move now? Does Magic Guard block all types of damage? Does Zamazenta always get a defence boost? Does Weak armor raise speed everytime it’s attacked? Etc.

Defining the «rule» and listing out how abilities in the grey area is necessary to proceede imo. For example, if ability does X only(?) under the condition Y, X will now always happen

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Please make one post and edit that with changes as they come up, don’t flood the thread! Delete all but one of your posts here.

No stakeout because that would always double attack

No evasion boosting abilities like sand veil or snow cloak.

Multiscale would too be banned as halving every attack is OP.

Intimidate still works the same

Disguise as well, as there is absolutely no way to not be able to take damage.

Heres one: all stat boosting abilities like defiant or competitive should be banned as it would be way overpowered to gain one every turn/attack.

You do have a good point. I will go through the ability list and add restrictions or bans to some abilities. I’ll come back in a bit.

Again you need a consistent rule here first. Look through the abilities and define a rule which could summarize the premise. It’s supposed to be short, simple and leave little room for confusion. IE: AAA any pokemon can use almost any ability. For this it could be something akin to: any ability which only activates under a condition had that condition removed.

Try to write a condition and then cross check how that would apply to abilities. I think both the evasion weather abilities fall under your rules, but they would of course be banned. But you should wait with banlidts until you’ve constructed a consistent premise which is easily summarized & explained.

 

[Ihateclodsire]

go

Please make one post and edit that with changes as they come up, don’t flood the thread! Delete all but one of your posts here.








Again you need a consistent rule here first. Look through the abilities and define a rule which could summarize the premise. It’s supposed to be short, simple and leave little room for confusion. IE: AAA any pokemon can use almost any ability. For this it could be something akin to: any ability which only activates under a condition had that condition removed.

Try to write a condition and then cross check how that would apply to abilities. I think both the evasion weather abilities fall under your rules, but they would of course be banned. But you should wait with banlidts until you’ve constructed a consistent premise which is easily summarized & explained.

got it, thank you

 

[Ihateclodsire]

I thought of one:
Almost every ability on every Pokemon is always activated, even if the condition for the ability isn’t up.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I think the intuitive implementation is for it to only affect static activation conditions, not triggers. Blaze is always active because "being at low HP" is an ongoing condition, but Good as Gold is unchanged because "hit by a status move" is a one-time trigger. Likewise, Stakeout is always active (and therefore broken) because "opponent has switched out this turn" is an ongoing condition, but Sheer Force is unchanged because "using a move with a secondary effect" is not.

Stakeout is broken, Multiscale is probably broken, Sturdy makes you unkillable (conventionally), Snow Cloak/Sand Veil are uncompetitive.

Cornerpon and Donphan (probably some other stuff too) are accidentally banned due to their abilities.

Unburden, Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Slush Rush, and Surge Surfer are all insane. Honestly I think it works out to be relatively balanced considering how many Pokemon have them. There's just a new absurdly high speed tier above everything without these abilities.

I'd say Gliscor gets banned when it can hold an actual item (at least you can burn it now?) but the increased power level might make it fine?

Likewise, every Guts Pokemon gets to choose their item now.

All the Paradoxes get buffed. Valiant, Moth, and Wake are stupid.

Analytic is a permanent 1.3x boost to all your moves. Magnezone stonks?

Oh, Darkrai gets Bad Dreams for free damage! Be glad it's a sweeper because that would suck to face on anything else.

 

[Ihateclodsire]

Yes, of course there would be some abilities that would be banned indefinitely. Multiscale,sturdy, and stakeout no doubt as well as evasive weather abilities and disguise.Thanks for also clearing up how abilities such as good as gold would work as well.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

How does Forecast work? It has multiple different conditions that can be met for mutually exclusive effects. For that matter, what about Multitype?*

Actually, a lot of form change abilities get muddy. The form-changing part of Gulp Missile is mostly unchanged (triggers on Surf/Dive use and on being hit should make it change form as normal) but I think it spits out both Arrokuda and Pikachu every time it's hit regardless of its form, as "Cramorant is in Gulping/Gorging form" are conditionals.

Similarly, Disguise and Ice Face make you change form on the first hit but continue to block hits even while you're in Busted/Noice form respectively.

Zen Mode, Schooling, and Shields Down, are tricky, because like Forecast, there are actually two conditionals at play - "If below X HP, transform into form B" and "if above X HP, transform back into form A" - and you can't have both of them trigger.

*assuming this is OU-based, Arceus is obviously banned, but it's good to make sure the mechanics make sense

 

[Ihateclodsire]

I think any form changing ability that has more than 1 additional form shouldn’t be allowed as it would be complicated. Other than those, I think form changing abilities would be on immediate on switch in regardless of health.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I think any form changing ability that has more than 1 additional form shouldn’t be allowed as it would be complicated. Other than those, I think form changing abilities would be on immediate on switch in regardless of health.

Zen Mode and the like activate at end of turn by the way

 

[InkyDarkBird]

I think an easier way to interpret Dusk Mage Necrozma's rule is to express abilities in terms of "if" and "while" statements and attempting to minimize the total number of "if" and "while" statements used. If the ability has a "while" statement, it is fully eliminated from the ability.

I define "while" as a conditional for states and "if" as a conditional for events. The most direct state/event should be used as best as possible (basically just the most concise the majority of the time). The pseudocode should be as short as possible, but still separate events and states.

For example, Sturdy can be expressed as

while (at 100% HP) :
    if (take KO damage) :
        live at 1%

Eliminating the "while" statement gives

if (take KO damage) :
    live at 1%

Weather abilities fall under this as well, with "while (weather) :" being applicable, since weather is a state of the field.

I don't believe Stakeout would provide a permanent 2x damage under this framework since it uses 2 events and doesn't use a state.

if (use attack) :
    if (opponent switches) :
        damage = damage * 2

For forme changes, Cramorant would likely just not work since it uses 2 "while" statements, and eliminating them both would give a Schrödinger's Cramorant.

if (use Surf/Dive) :
    while (HP > 50%) :
        become Cramorant-Gulping
    while (HP < 50%) :
        become Cramorant-Gorging

if (opponent attacks) :
    while (Cramorant-Gulping) :
        make opponent lose 25% HP
        make opponent paralyzed
        revert to normal
     
    while (Cramorant-Gorging) :
        make opponent lose 25% HP
        make opponent lose 1 defense
        revert to normal

Meloetta also probably doesn't work because you can swap the order of the while loops and the default functionality remains the same. However, Meloetta becomes permanently locked into 1 form in the OM idea.

if (use Relic Song) :
    while (Meloetta-Aria) :
        become Meloetta-Pirouette
        end code
 
    while (Meloetta-Pirouette) :
        become Meloetta-Aria

Meloetta changes forms using a move, not an ability.

Honestly, form changes should be excluded entirely from this OM idea.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I don't believe Stakeout would provide a permanent 2x damage under this framework since it uses 2 events and doesn't use a state.

The opponent does not switch at the same time as the attack. It's not Pursuit. Rather, the opponent switching puts a marker on that slot (a "switched this turn" state) which then is used for a while statement.

Meloetta also probably doesn't work because you can swap the order of the while loops and the default functionality remains the same. However, Meloetta becomes permanently locked into 1 form in the OM idea.

Meloetta's form change is not caused by an Ability, so it should be unaffected.