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Metagame Doubles Ubers
- Thread starter Arcticblast
- Start date
Yeah that’s a very tough matchup for Rain, with two opposing sun setters, screens, and Miraidon. If you’re running a hyper offense team with Calyrex/Tornadus/Rain, you really need something to break screens. For instance, on my rain TR team, I run Psychic Fangs on Basculegion for this reason, as well as having stuff like Magearna that is good into Grimmsnarl. Here’s the team for reference:
2. Rain Trick Room
Trick Room maybe be the best way to play rain, since Calyrex-Ice takes out everything that Kyogre struggles to hit, and vice versa (just have to be careful around wide guard). The idea is pretty simple, setting TR up either through Annihilape Final Gambit + TR or Incin fake out support, then pivoting into the powerful TR sweepers. Basculegion is there to either end game sweep, pivot back into TR mons, or remove screens that typically would slow down TR teams. Lastly Iron Ball Kyogre is a fun way to help beat opposing Calyrex-Ice, as opposing Caly-Ice can often be tough to beat for TR.
For these reasons, I also think a fairy type is practically required for rain, so that team could try Zacian-Crowned over Zamazenta-Crowned on this team, knowing the trade-off is being worse into Trick Room.
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magearna is good instead of basc
never knew u were a mod gz on getting that roll
Peaked relatively high on the ladder and wanted to share my team with you guys
Basically just Hard TR and Psyspam, but I did ladder quite a bit and would like to share my thoughts on that (more information about the team on my RMT).
Ladder right now is like a breeding ground for all kinds of nasty stuff. I'd say I encountered more cheese at the 1550-1600 ELO mark than I did from 1300-1450 ELO. Idk if this is just an Ubers thing or if the tier doesn't really appeal to many anymore, but it made laddering really funny but at times, really boring, slow, and kind of not enjoyable.
I really like this meta still, but it's hard to get some good play in without direct challenging because of the state of the ladder. Also not attacking the tier, fire tier. I think it's moreso a bit of the player base.
Basically just Hard TR and Psyspam, but I did ladder quite a bit and would like to share my thoughts on that (more information about the team on my RMT).
Ladder right now is like a breeding ground for all kinds of nasty stuff. I'd say I encountered more cheese at the 1550-1600 ELO mark than I did from 1300-1450 ELO. Idk if this is just an Ubers thing or if the tier doesn't really appeal to many anymore, but it made laddering really funny but at times, really boring, slow, and kind of not enjoyable.
I really like this meta still, but it's hard to get some good play in without direct challenging because of the state of the ladder. Also not attacking the tier, fire tier. I think it's moreso a bit of the player base.
wide guard?Peaked relatively high on the ladder and wanted to share my team with you guys
View attachment 717161
Basically just Hard TR and Psyspam, but I did ladder quite a bit and would like to share my thoughts on that (more information about the team on my RMT).
Ladder right now is like a breeding ground for all kinds of nasty stuff. I'd say I encountered more cheese at the 1550-1600 ELO mark than I did from 1300-1450 ELO. Idk if this is just an Ubers thing or if the tier doesn't really appeal to many anymore, but it made laddering really funny but at times, really boring, slow, and kind of not enjoyable.
I really like this meta still, but it's hard to get some good play in without direct challenging because of the state of the ladder. Also not attacking the tier, fire tier. I think it's moreso a bit of the player base.
got number 2 on the ladder
this team destroys TR because of kyogre's water spout and tornadus's support
If the TR gets set, amoongus is there to do a fast spore to put pokes to sleep
bascueleigon is here to be an endgame threat and KO low hp pokes
Zama is here for the wide gaurd and some chip damage
csr is to be a wall breaker with nasty plot and astral barrage special walls like kyogre get usually o-koed by +2 csr psyshock
say a bulky kyogre will still be 2koed by the same attack at +2 +2 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with it
In my opinion:
Tier 1
Miraidon
Is a sleep answer, water resist and kyogre answer, hits very strong in terrain and has more set diversity (AV, specs, carf, LO, electric seed...). Broken mon. Very splashable.
Zamazenta-C
Very splashable on teams, checks op mons, etc.
Arceus-Normal
Ghost inmunity, extreme speed + SD very good.
Both calyrexs
Tera makes even more dangerous, op exclusive moves, etc.
Tier 2
Zacian-C
Kyogre
Koraidon
Groudon
Arceus Fire and maybe dark
Tier 3
Lunala
Incineroar
Tornadus-I
Whimsicott
Arceus-Ground and Fairy
Ho-oh
Terapagos
Eternatus
Magearna
Maybe flutter mane and grimmsnarl
Maybe necrozma-DM should be mentioned in tier 4, I found this mon pretty decent.
Of course, there are other mons that are good in the right teams but I'm not listing all of them.
Tier 1
Miraidon
Is a sleep answer, water resist and kyogre answer, hits very strong in terrain and has more set diversity (AV, specs, carf, LO, electric seed...). Broken mon. Very splashable.
Zamazenta-C
Very splashable on teams, checks op mons, etc.
Arceus-Normal
Ghost inmunity, extreme speed + SD very good.
Both calyrexs
Tera makes even more dangerous, op exclusive moves, etc.
Tier 2
Zacian-C
Kyogre
Koraidon
Groudon
Arceus Fire and maybe dark
Tier 3
Lunala
Incineroar
Tornadus-I
Whimsicott
Arceus-Ground and Fairy
Ho-oh
Terapagos
Eternatus
Magearna
Maybe flutter mane and grimmsnarl
Maybe necrozma-DM should be mentioned in tier 4, I found this mon pretty decent.
Of course, there are other mons that are good in the right teams but I'm not listing all of them.
what is tornadus-I is probably better than arceus fire in this format
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Is darkrai any good? My friend just found out that dark void is not banned and we put together a cheese team with wide lens darkrai + tailwind users
You can try it, however electric terrain (via Miraidon) is extremely prevalent, and this prevents grounded Pokemon from being put to sleep. So you’d need also a way of changing the terrain, at which point you’re committing so much effort to putting stuff to sleep, you’re missing out on the main goal, which is to ko your opponents pokemon.
Had some fun on the Dubers ladder and decided to share some of my thoughts
Overall big fan of the tier so far, obviously ladder isn't close to a perfect environment but it doesn't feel like any one mon or strategy is too overbearing, and I think almost any Duber pokemon can find a place on a competitive team which is fun. You'll see some ideas that I took from Reg I VGC but this tier really has its own identity and I encourage more people to check it out. I'm going to post the teams I used while laddering and some of my thought process for building/using them.
First team I built just mashing together a lot of common synergies, E-Seed Lunala felt pretty epic and it was really fun to click Rising Voltage with Bolt but I did quickly realize that everyone on this team is weak to fairy so I moved away from the team and tried to focus on not stacking fairy weaks as much.
I saw all the fairy weaks and so built fairy arceus cause surely its gotta be the best fairy type. This team felt very strong and is what I used the most while laddering. The Arc-Caly-Zama core has a ton of synergy as long as you don't get greedy with Calm Minds, often only 1 can be what you need. Ho-Oh is epic and I really like it even when there is a lot of Miraidon and Kyoger on the ladder because its really not a bad tera option at all. I changed to the Koraidon version later because Kyoger with Prankster Tailwind was really scary for this.
This is kinda mashing a bunch of Reg I restricted combos that I liked from the previous teams together but they all work together really well. Ursaluna and Hands are probably in the top 5 best non-ubers in the tier to me, especially on ladder where Ursaluna especially can often just kinda win.
Oger/Mag/Incin/Caly-I is a really easy combo to put together (Act posted about it in DOUcord like the day I put these 4 together on my own lol) and slapping on Lunala+Miraidon made a lot of sense given the team's needs. Idk if CM is the best Mag set but I really like the feel of physically bulky CM guys in the tier so that's what I went with. I did think this team might like trying to fit Amoonguss or some other way to heal up the team but I never got around to it, there is so much Miraidon that I was always worried about Amoon's effectiveness but I think it's probably better than I was giving it credit for.
My main foray into Hyper-offense. Ekiller + Shadow Rider is such an easy combo to put together but I think you really need to make sure you can pressure opposing Zamazenta because they can slow down the combo a lot. I think Miraidon is really nice on Ekiller teams for Terrain control as well. This team got me the most points on the ladder because Toxic Spikes and Rocks are very epic. Originally I had standard sash Glimmora but I would just get outsped and die to any 2 specialy attackers and gettting up any hazards at all was very inconsistent. I tried out versions with Deo-S and Eternatus for Rocks and T-Spikes respectively, but I was greedy and wanted both so I went back to Glimmora and tried out this ultra-fat set and it felt extremely nice to use. Not sure on what attack to use but its probably not Sludge Bomb because there are too many Steels that wall it otherwise.
Here are some assorted teams that I used once or twice and thought were fun or promising:
Groudon/Scarf Chi-Yu HO
Giga Drain Caly-S
Fat Hazard Stack
Very Standard Plot Caly-S
Specs Kyogre
Random Thoughts
- My tier 1 probably consists of Zamazenta, Caly-I, Caly-S, and maybe Arceus Normal.
- Bikes are cool but pretty inflexible and too easy to shut down to be tier 1.
- Bikes are the best scarfers though which is a really valuable trait as I generally want something that can outspeed Caly-S on my team.
- I'm not a fan of either Torn or Whims. Both are sitting ducks that apply very little offensive pressure. Trick Room is extremely common and most teams have priority and/or are bulky enough to stall Tailwind turns easily. Try out Ho-Oh instead =)
- Zacian interests me very little. On paper it threatens bikes but Miraidon's best set is Scarf and Koraidon is always Tera Fire.
- 99% of my teams will probably have Wide Guard, whether from Zamazenta or Lunala, its just so important to respond to both Calyrex.
- Speaking of Zamazenta imo max Defense is really strong and turns the mon into both one of the best offensive and defensive threats.
- I think Fairy Arceus is the best non-Ekiller Arceus but all of the ones on the VR currently seem usable, both setup and support are cool.
- Flutter Mane is probably really good I just haven't tried it, same with a bunch of other mons that I just never tried. I tend to fall into similar comfort structures a lot of the time when I build.
Ok done yapping
Overall big fan of the tier so far, obviously ladder isn't close to a perfect environment but it doesn't feel like any one mon or strategy is too overbearing, and I think almost any Duber pokemon can find a place on a competitive team which is fun. You'll see some ideas that I took from Reg I VGC but this tier really has its own identity and I encourage more people to check it out. I'm going to post the teams I used while laddering and some of my thought process for building/using them.
First team I built just mashing together a lot of common synergies, E-Seed Lunala felt pretty epic and it was really fun to click Rising Voltage with Bolt but I did quickly realize that everyone on this team is weak to fairy so I moved away from the team and tried to focus on not stacking fairy weaks as much.
I saw all the fairy weaks and so built fairy arceus cause surely its gotta be the best fairy type. This team felt very strong and is what I used the most while laddering. The Arc-Caly-Zama core has a ton of synergy as long as you don't get greedy with Calm Minds, often only 1 can be what you need. Ho-Oh is epic and I really like it even when there is a lot of Miraidon and Kyoger on the ladder because its really not a bad tera option at all. I changed to the Koraidon version later because Kyoger with Prankster Tailwind was really scary for this.
This is kinda mashing a bunch of Reg I restricted combos that I liked from the previous teams together but they all work together really well. Ursaluna and Hands are probably in the top 5 best non-ubers in the tier to me, especially on ladder where Ursaluna especially can often just kinda win.
Oger/Mag/Incin/Caly-I is a really easy combo to put together (Act posted about it in DOUcord like the day I put these 4 together on my own lol) and slapping on Lunala+Miraidon made a lot of sense given the team's needs. Idk if CM is the best Mag set but I really like the feel of physically bulky CM guys in the tier so that's what I went with. I did think this team might like trying to fit Amoonguss or some other way to heal up the team but I never got around to it, there is so much Miraidon that I was always worried about Amoon's effectiveness but I think it's probably better than I was giving it credit for.
My main foray into Hyper-offense. Ekiller + Shadow Rider is such an easy combo to put together but I think you really need to make sure you can pressure opposing Zamazenta because they can slow down the combo a lot. I think Miraidon is really nice on Ekiller teams for Terrain control as well. This team got me the most points on the ladder because Toxic Spikes and Rocks are very epic. Originally I had standard sash Glimmora but I would just get outsped and die to any 2 specialy attackers and gettting up any hazards at all was very inconsistent. I tried out versions with Deo-S and Eternatus for Rocks and T-Spikes respectively, but I was greedy and wanted both so I went back to Glimmora and tried out this ultra-fat set and it felt extremely nice to use. Not sure on what attack to use but its probably not Sludge Bomb because there are too many Steels that wall it otherwise.
Here are some assorted teams that I used once or twice and thought were fun or promising:
Groudon/Scarf Chi-Yu HO Giga Drain Caly-S Fat Hazard Stack Very Standard Plot Caly-S Specs KyogreRandom Thoughts
- My tier 1 probably consists of Zamazenta, Caly-I, Caly-S, and maybe Arceus Normal.
- Bikes are cool but pretty inflexible and too easy to shut down to be tier 1.
- Bikes are the best scarfers though which is a really valuable trait as I generally want something that can outspeed Caly-S on my team.
- I'm not a fan of either Torn or Whims. Both are sitting ducks that apply very little offensive pressure. Trick Room is extremely common and most teams have priority and/or are bulky enough to stall Tailwind turns easily. Try out Ho-Oh instead =)
- Zacian interests me very little. On paper it threatens bikes but Miraidon's best set is Scarf and Koraidon is always Tera Fire.
- 99% of my teams will probably have Wide Guard, whether from Zamazenta or Lunala, its just so important to respond to both Calyrex.
- Speaking of Zamazenta imo max Defense is really strong and turns the mon into both one of the best offensive and defensive threats.
- I think Fairy Arceus is the best non-Ekiller Arceus but all of the ones on the VR currently seem usable, both setup and support are cool.
- Flutter Mane is probably really good I just haven't tried it, same with a bunch of other mons that I just never tried. I tend to fall into similar comfort structures a lot of the time when I build.
Ok done yapping
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The first 3 members are pretty standard on Darkrai teams. Calyrex shadow + darkrai, gravity + dark void. Sometimes Darkrai runs Dark void + hypnosis (for avoid wide guard and for more accuracity in one target but don't like that).
Indeedee-f helps against Miraidon's terrain and allows to use Expanding force in Calyrex-shadow.
The final 3 members aren't standard, is my own build but Kyogre is common in this kind of teams and a Tailwind user is common too.
Miraidon high usage is a problem for Darkrai, without it this tier needs Sleep clause for sure.
Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Void
- Protect
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
Calyrex-Shadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Gravity
- Protect
- Expanding Force
Indeedee-F @ Eject Button
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Psychic
- Follow Me
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Def / 96 SpA / 100 SpD / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Tailwind
- Earth Power
- Gravity
Kyogre @ Mystic Water
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 240 HP / 244 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Protect
Zacian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 248 Atk / 4 Def / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Sacred Sword
- Crunch
- Wild Charge
Made my ladder peak so now I gotta give the team.
Paste:
Zamazenta was originally ditto and the calyrex had a more standard nasty plot set, but calyrex normally doesn't stay alive for more than two turns anyways (ignoring protect), so I eventually swapped out the ditto for a standard zamazenta and made caly my trick room counter. Zama has great synergies with calyrex-shadow, as it can body press the normal and dark types that can take astral barrages, and also can use wide guard to keep calyrex's sash intact. Miraidon is the wallbreaker and hits like a truck. Dazzling gleam is just a broken move in this meta. Calyrex has imprison trick room and can 6-0 an unprepared team. It cannot hit normal types, so it relies pretty heavily on body press zamazenta, close combat zacian, and collision course koraidon. Zacian is standard, and first turn tera ghost zacian+imprison calyrex shuts down annihilape trick room leads. Koraidon is scarf, which is probably overkill on a tailwind team, but sometimes you just really need to outspeed the calyrex.
Murkrow is my hot take. I see a lot of murkrow hate and it's mostly unfounded. Murkrow has three main draws over tornadus:
1. Stab foul play, which deals heavy damage into both calyrexes, sd arceus, lunala, ect.
2. Dark typing, a tailwinded murkrow can outspeed and taunt an opposing tornadus, but tornadus cannot do this to a murkrow
3. Prankster movepool, mostly this means twave but murkrow also has haze and even perish song
I absolutely feel this mon deserves to be tier 4 or even 3. The thing a lot of people get wrong about murkrow is that they try to use it with eviolite, but murkrow just doesn't have the bulk to run an eviolite in a meta that allows miraidon.
Other VR disagreements:
Kyogre 4->3: This thing is just too good to languish in the bottommost tier. I know wide guard exists, but rain boosted water spouts are just too strong against almost everything else for kyogre to be this low.
Farigiraf UR->4: A fairly common indeedee alternative; armor tail cannot be removed by a miraidon switch in, it doesn't stop your own fake outs, and farigiraf's stats are better
Zamazenta 2->1: It can't obliterate teams in the same way that the current pokemon in tier 1 can, but it makes up for it with its ability to completely control the speed of the game, playing slowly with wide guards and snarls or sweeping with ironpress. This mon can be slapped on nearly any team.
Koraidon 1->2: This is just a knockoff miraidon. Miraidon gets dazzling gleam, this thing doesn't, and that makes such a huge difference. Koraidon is the backup bike you use when you desperately need a fighting type to support ghost sweepers/have a ground weak team/already have miraidon/need sun and not e-terrain. Even as a fighting type it has competition from zamazenta, and as a sun setter it competes with groudon.
Overall this meta is kinda weird. Cheese isn't just good, it's viable, and I actually kind of like it that way. King of reXes in particular has been championing a lv. 1 farigiraf team, and I used a variant of my team with room service ditto to ladder up to the top 20. Wondering what the random scraggy is about to do is part of what makes this metagame fun. (the other part is blasting the scraggy with an electro drift)
Replay dump:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2369235090-sae2hya9e6qu5he51p37x2wby6xf0edpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2375373485-ss8q6wncjkg4961i9utmfoc4ugl7u22pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2376457670?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2379942310?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2381246080-p4ddngm86uksgo16h9m6ly75n1rds3vpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2390183730?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2390798222-6duvx6guj8e572wnr58lh1b6veorimepw?p2
Paste:
Zamazenta was originally ditto and the calyrex had a more standard nasty plot set, but calyrex normally doesn't stay alive for more than two turns anyways (ignoring protect), so I eventually swapped out the ditto for a standard zamazenta and made caly my trick room counter. Zama has great synergies with calyrex-shadow, as it can body press the normal and dark types that can take astral barrages, and also can use wide guard to keep calyrex's sash intact. Miraidon is the wallbreaker and hits like a truck. Dazzling gleam is just a broken move in this meta. Calyrex has imprison trick room and can 6-0 an unprepared team. It cannot hit normal types, so it relies pretty heavily on body press zamazenta, close combat zacian, and collision course koraidon. Zacian is standard, and first turn tera ghost zacian+imprison calyrex shuts down annihilape trick room leads. Koraidon is scarf, which is probably overkill on a tailwind team, but sometimes you just really need to outspeed the calyrex.
Murkrow is my hot take. I see a lot of murkrow hate and it's mostly unfounded. Murkrow has three main draws over tornadus:
1. Stab foul play, which deals heavy damage into both calyrexes, sd arceus, lunala, ect.
2. Dark typing, a tailwinded murkrow can outspeed and taunt an opposing tornadus, but tornadus cannot do this to a murkrow
3. Prankster movepool, mostly this means twave but murkrow also has haze and even perish song
I absolutely feel this mon deserves to be tier 4 or even 3. The thing a lot of people get wrong about murkrow is that they try to use it with eviolite, but murkrow just doesn't have the bulk to run an eviolite in a meta that allows miraidon.
Other VR disagreements:
Kyogre 4->3: This thing is just too good to languish in the bottommost tier. I know wide guard exists, but rain boosted water spouts are just too strong against almost everything else for kyogre to be this low.
Farigiraf UR->4: A fairly common indeedee alternative; armor tail cannot be removed by a miraidon switch in, it doesn't stop your own fake outs, and farigiraf's stats are better
Zamazenta 2->1: It can't obliterate teams in the same way that the current pokemon in tier 1 can, but it makes up for it with its ability to completely control the speed of the game, playing slowly with wide guards and snarls or sweeping with ironpress. This mon can be slapped on nearly any team.
Koraidon 1->2: This is just a knockoff miraidon. Miraidon gets dazzling gleam, this thing doesn't, and that makes such a huge difference. Koraidon is the backup bike you use when you desperately need a fighting type to support ghost sweepers/have a ground weak team/already have miraidon/need sun and not e-terrain. Even as a fighting type it has competition from zamazenta, and as a sun setter it competes with groudon.
Overall this meta is kinda weird. Cheese isn't just good, it's viable, and I actually kind of like it that way. King of reXes in particular has been championing a lv. 1 farigiraf team, and I used a variant of my team with room service ditto to ladder up to the top 20. Wondering what the random scraggy is about to do is part of what makes this metagame fun. (the other part is blasting the scraggy with an electro drift)
Replay dump:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2369235090-sae2hya9e6qu5he51p37x2wby6xf0edpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2375373485-ss8q6wncjkg4961i9utmfoc4ugl7u22pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2376457670?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2379942310?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2381246080-p4ddngm86uksgo16h9m6ly75n1rds3vpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2390183730?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesubers-2390798222-6duvx6guj8e572wnr58lh1b6veorimepw?p2
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The thing people get wrong with Murkrow is that they try to use it at all. Arceus-Dark does all of this better, and is much more sturdy into both Calyrex forms. It can be used as something like Foul Play/TW/Recover/Any 4th move you need - like Cosmic Power, Taunt, a coverage move, Perish Song (as you mentioned) or Calm Mind if you want to run Judgement over Foul Play. Due to its bulk in comparison to Murkrow, it does not need to rely on Prankster to get up Tailwind, and can maintain more of a presence on the field.
This is the Miraidon/Koraidon effect, it doesn't really have anything to do with Wide Guard imo. It's just too slow to participate a lot of the time, and hitting Origin Pulse is often a huge gamble, but I've seen some really nice Rain teams with stuff like Basc/Mage etc. that operate in a Semiroom structure. You can see two Kyogre-focused teams in a game Actuarily and I played which was very fun (my team was kinda ass lmao): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesubers-810780
Arceus cannot spread priority taunts or hazes. Arc cannot stop opposing prankster tailwind from going up, nor survive let alone cripple a +3 zamazenta. In addition, a priority tailwind basically lasts an extra turn, as it gives the speed boost on the turn it is used, allowing your miraidon to win the crucial speed tie with an opposing bike. Arc dark cannot do this. (The same 1 turn bonus also applies to thunder wave) Arceus dark also takes up the one valuable arceus slot. I agree that arceus dark has a much larger presence on the field than a murkrow, but murkrow can lift you out of otherwise losing situations in a way that arceus just can't. (Why is tornadus so much better than Ho-oh and defensive arceus forms? prankster tailwind is its own thing)
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While the part on haze is true, Arceus is fast enough / bulky enough to get off a Haze even if it moves last. Murkrow also is never really stopping Prankster Tailwind considering it is one of the slowest abusers of it (Whimsicott and Tornadus are far faster). I think your point on Tailwind is nice, but Thunder Wave can go off after just fine. Would also like to reiterate the point that Arceus is bulky enough to get these things off and is also fast enough in certain scenarios. You aren't running another Arceus from what I can see, so Arceus-Dark is a fine replacement. How exactly does Murkrow lift you out of a bad situation? Taunt to deny TR? Imprison Calyrex-S (which you are running) already fixes that, and Arceus-Dark can also use Taunt. I feel there is too much holding Murkrow back (since it is so easy to ignore) that it isn't really the best option here.
Tornadus isn't better than Ho-Oh and Defensive Arceus formes just because of Prankster Tailwind. It also provides solid spread damage into Koraidon and Amoonguss while shutting off Sun with Rain Dance. I do think the VR is a bit outdated and defensive arceus formes (namely Water or even Fairy) should be a tier higher or so.
I will remind you that murkrow learns rain dance. Also, ho-oh and arceus also provide solid damage into koraidon by one shotting it.
56+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 330-390 (96.7 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 604-712 (177.1 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Arceus-water can even run dazzling gleam for similar results if desired. Amoongus gets whacked by sacred fire (it can deal with arceus though). I really see no difference between murkrow's relation to arceus dark and tornadus's relation to ho-oh/arceus. Non boosting arceus has a similar damage output to tornadus, and murkrow has a completely identical damage output to foul play arc-dark. Tornadus is arguably even worse, because it gives up almost all of the massive arc movepool, but murkrow keeps some of it. (When I mentioned taunting opposing prankster, I meant while under tailwind. A murkrow can keep its tailwind lead, but a tailwinded tornadus can do nothing to an untailwinded murkrow. This pressures tornadus players to lead with torn, which makes the leads predictable)
In other news:
This thing absolutely bullies both calyrex and miraidon. It doesn't do too much immediately to the rest of the tier, but favorable matchups into all of the top tier special attackers is worth a lot. Even when its not bullying its favorite legendary snacks, it still can be a nuisance as it stacks hazards and phases. Removing it is doable because of a lack of reliable recovery, but it can be painful due to insane bulk and a broken ability. Tera ghost allows it to flip its matchups 180 degrees, walling fighting types but losing its old immunities. I don't have too much experience playing this thing but I absolutely hate to see it on an enemy team. My gut says this should be tiered but I haven't used it enough to be sure. Does anyone think this should be tier 4?
I’ve used Ting-Lu a bunch, yeah it’s definitely tier 4 worthy. Personally I’ve found Tera poison to be better than like ghost, since there’s a ton of dark types around, but it always depends on the rest of your team. As you said, it’s a good hazard setter that can really limit special attackers, so it goes well with like Normal Arceus.I will remind you that murkrow learns rain dance. Also, ho-oh and arceus also provide solid damage into koraidon by one shotting it.
56+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 330-390 (96.7 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 604-712 (177.1 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Arceus-water can even run dazzling gleam for similar results if desired. Amoongus gets whacked by sacred fire (it can deal with arceus though). I really see no difference between murkrow's relation to arceus dark and tornadus's relation to ho-oh/arceus. Non boosting arceus has a similar damage output to tornadus, and murkrow has a completely identical damage output to foul play arc-dark. Tornadus is arguably even worse, because it gives up almost all of the massive arc movepool, but murkrow keeps some of it. (When I mentioned taunting opposing prankster, I meant while under tailwind. A murkrow can keep its tailwind lead, but a tailwinded tornadus can do nothing to an untailwinded murkrow. This pressures tornadus players to lead with torn, which makes the leads predictable)
In other news:
This thing absolutely bullies both calyrex and miraidon. It doesn't do too much immediately to the rest of the tier, but favorable matchups into all of the top tier special attackers is worth a lot. Even when its not bullying its favorite legendary snacks, it still can be a nuisance as it stacks hazards and phases. Removing it is doable because of a lack of reliable recovery, but it can be painful due to insane bulk and a broken ability. Tera ghost allows it to flip its matchups 180 degrees, walling fighting types but losing its old immunities. I don't have too much experience playing this thing but I absolutely hate to see it on an enemy team. My gut says this should be tiered but I haven't used it enough to be sure. Does anyone think this should be tier 4?
That being said, it does run into some competition from mons like Groudon, who can also set hazards, but has way more offensive options. But Ting-Lu still has a place in the metagame.