What makes Oricorio fire not broken in ZU since I remember around last year it was terrorizing PU and some people were having issues with it in NU just curious what specifically in the DLCs allowed Oriocorio to be balanced and not broken down in ZU
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Resource SV ZU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Tuthur
- Start date
I’m on mobile so sorry if I miss anything, but the current meta has a lot of anti-Oricorio tools right now. Prior to April, we had Trace Porygon2 in the tier, and tracing Dancer was a hard Oricorio counter, in addition to P2 having Psyshock and Recover. In this meta, mons like Roar Charizard, Floatzel, Scarf Trick Mowtom, Encore Whimsicott, Encore/Twave mesprit, OTR Spiritomb (who runs psyshock), Alluring Voice/Tbolt/cm Jolteon, and Regirock (notably) all have a good matchup into Fire Oricorio.
It’s not a secret what Oricorio does to low tiers this gen, so it’s still good with Tera and options between bulky, taunt, or offensive sets that you have to respect. Between those counters, Tera reliance, and usually needing to drop a STAB for the more annoying taunt sets, and a higher power level since before the DLC, it’s not too bad to wall Oricorio.
Also here’s a nom:
A- -> B+Imagine not being able to use Tera to get around your checks. Minior isn’t bad by any means, but it’s much harder to position than stuff like Poliwrath and Oricorio in A-, who are good at tera. (Sure hope I don’t change my mind on this…)
So usually I’m just derping around (sometimes semi-seriously), but decided to mention a couple of opinions:
: A- —> A
I’m actually going to dispute LettuceLeaf07 here, as not only have I found Minior to be pretty solid overall, the times where it had problems were more because of how circumstances played out more than anything with Minior itself. Even in cases where Tera wasn’t available for it, there’s been plenty of times where just a Shell Smash itself has generally been enough to finish out the match. And yes, there are things that can handle it (Orthworm walls it and Regirock can take a hit, it really hates priority, and depending on Tera options the right prediction can make sure someone survives that crucial hit), but in a lot of cases when it comes in around the middle or end of a match, I’ve found that teams really don’t handle it well and supposed checks that have been held back for Minior end up crumbling. Some of this is definitely unfamiliarity with Shields Down (seriously, stop trying status while it’s in Meteor Form), but there’s been plenty of instances where it’s been a menace, and as long as hazards are kept off your side of the field, I find that’s usually enough.
: B —> B+
I’ve seen a decent bit about Braviary not being the most ideal Defog user (including 5Dots earlier in the thread), but frankly I’ve had a lot of fun with bulky Defog Braviary and think it’s underrated. Not only are its HP and Roost generally enough to let it Defog multiple times through a match, opponents who get careless run the risk of eating a Brave Bird or Close Combat to the face if they wrongly predict a Defog. Plus, it’s still got enough firepower where if you need something in an attacking role during a match, it’s not the worst option to take something down or at least wear it down enough for others.
I’m actually going to dispute LettuceLeaf07 here, as not only have I found Minior to be pretty solid overall, the times where it had problems were more because of how circumstances played out more than anything with Minior itself. Even in cases where Tera wasn’t available for it, there’s been plenty of times where just a Shell Smash itself has generally been enough to finish out the match. And yes, there are things that can handle it (Orthworm walls it and Regirock can take a hit, it really hates priority, and depending on Tera options the right prediction can make sure someone survives that crucial hit), but in a lot of cases when it comes in around the middle or end of a match, I’ve found that teams really don’t handle it well and supposed checks that have been held back for Minior end up crumbling. Some of this is definitely unfamiliarity with Shields Down (seriously, stop trying status while it’s in Meteor Form), but there’s been plenty of instances where it’s been a menace, and as long as hazards are kept off your side of the field, I find that’s usually enough.
I’ve seen a decent bit about Braviary not being the most ideal Defog user (including 5Dots earlier in the thread), but frankly I’ve had a lot of fun with bulky Defog Braviary and think it’s underrated. Not only are its HP and Roost generally enough to let it Defog multiple times through a match, opponents who get careless run the risk of eating a Brave Bird or Close Combat to the face if they wrongly predict a Defog. Plus, it’s still got enough firepower where if you need something in an attacking role during a match, it’s not the worst option to take something down or at least wear it down enough for others.
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A- -> BAt the levels where people are actually aware that it's ability makes it immune to status at 50% and above, I've found this mon to be pretty bad. Set up opportunities are rare with there being a lot of anti-set up tools being spammed, such as encore and phasing. Due to Rocks weakness, it doesn't get the entry points it really wants, as Charizard still can do a lot after rocks (30-35%) and can Roar on Shell Smash. It doesn't help that the 3 highest usage mons, Sandslash Mesprit and Regirock range from solid checks to hard counters. Tera does allow it to overcome strong priority, but putting Minior into priority range even with resistances isn't hard. I think the Special set is slightly better, avoiding helmet chip but you miss out on white herb making you even more prone to being revenged by priority.
I am a noob and i keep forgetting about that mechanic as i try to use toxic or paralysis on it shit gets me every time but I think Minior is fine as it is right now currently as A- rank it is still a great sweeper and you can build your team to support it as well on an HO team or just put it on there as coverage or a check to mons like Charizard or other sweepers in the tier imo as it can outspeed some choice scarfers with a shell smash. Also on sticky web you can afford to drop some speed EVs for some bulk as well
At the levels where people are actually aware that it's ability makes it immune to status at 50% and above, I've found this mon to be pretty bad. Set up opportunities are rare with there being a lot of anti-set up tools being spammed, such as encore and phasing. Due to Rocks weakness, it doesn't get the entry points it really wants, as Charizard still can do a lot after rocks (30-35%) and can Roar on Shell Smash. It doesn't help that the 3 highest usage mons, Sandslash Mesprit and Regirock range from solid checks to hard counters. Tera does allow it to overcome strong priority, but putting Minior into priority range even with resistances isn't hard. I think the Special set is slightly better, avoiding helmet chip but you miss out on white herb making you even more prone to being revenged by priority.
In the case that Oricorio suspect results int a Do not ban Thwakey should probably go up a tier because Grassy seed gives a nice defense boost as long as you have the right hazard removal support but you can argue that thwak should stay the same because you are deciding to not run boots on a 4x rocks weak pokemon like oricorio which in itself is risky but at least should have some consideration and even if oricorio gets banned I think it can be good support for the other form as it grants extra healing and a defense boost while psychic terrain is available just saying the extra psyical defense along side the spdef boosts from quiver dance give it a lot of sweeper potential in a future where the fire oricorio is banned so either way at least consider possibly increasing the ranking of thwakey and possibly indeedee if fire oriocorio gets banned also sorry for bad spelling
I've been inspired to make noms because of the travesty that is Whimsicott's ranking on the VR in this meta. I'm hoping this doesn't take too long.
B+ -> A
In a word, moonblast. Whimsicott can be extremely difficult to play around, especially if you are running a team with Mowtom/Floatzel as your fastest 2 mons. Whimsicott is the only fairy in the tier (except for tera fairy Mesprit i guess lol), so some teams won't have a fairy resistance. The only mons in the S/A ranks that resist fairy are Charizard, Magneton, and Oricorio. On top of specs moonblast being a pain to switch into, Whimsicott has an incredible utility movepool, with options such as Encore, Subseed, and Switcheroo, which are very good at crippling mons like Snorlax who could care less about special attacks (seriously if you never leech seeded a Snorlax you are missing out). It's a travesty that this mon is in B+ right now, especially in Spiritomb meta.
A- -> B
It's hard to justify. It's fine at best as a HO lead, and since that's how people use it, it should be ranked one above the next best designated HO lead in Froslass. There's even an argument that Froslass and Lycan are about equal as HO leads, but I'm not nomming this to B- when it can run other sets. I really wish CB, LO, or AoA sets were good and popular, but you get outsped by the base 115 squad alongside stuff like Whimsicott and Jolteon. It's not a bad mon, but it's not made waves, and it's not fitting onto teams like an A- mon should.
B -> B+
Grouping these together because they are similar. Both of them are slow, 'bulky,' special attackers that are very difficult to switch into. I think they are both equally strong into our meta's walls and equally capable of ripping through teams.
B -> B-
Usually, if I'm in a spot where I'm putting cryogonal on a team, I'm rebuilding it because I messed up the structure somewhere. Not to say it's that bad, but nobody knows how to use it (OFFENSIVELY) and that includes me.
And here are the quick noms for mons I don't have anything real to add:
-> down.
I'm just a hater. They aren't easy to build around and usually don't make their way onto my teams, and aren't mons I prep for
B+ -> B
Should prob be in the 'im just a hater' category. Vikavolt, Clawitzer, and Eggy-a are right there. It has a good support movepool, but so does Whimsicott.
-> higher
if i pretend im incapable of tilt, this is why i didnt qualify for ZULT. This and a lot of regirock. And tilt.
(to add, it's like if Worse Snorlax didn't have to tera and got knock)
B -> B+
It's a real fighting resist that dares both sneasels and passimian to hit it. Take the helmet chip or do a negligible amount of damage. Stay in and let me wisp you. Take that extra recoil Floatzel. I dare you.
same or lower
G-terrain isn't easy to use. Floatzel clicks ice spinner. Braviary (when someone uses it) clicks defog. Charizard clicks roar. Snorlax clicks curse again. This meta isn't HO friendly, and if you disagree I'll add to the word count later.
A- -> A
agree
No nom just want to see it voted on. I think B is honestly fine for it, but I've been impressed with it enough to where I can agree with a B+ for it.
A- -> A
good mon
B+ -> AIn a word, moonblast. Whimsicott can be extremely difficult to play around, especially if you are running a team with Mowtom/Floatzel as your fastest 2 mons. Whimsicott is the only fairy in the tier (except for tera fairy Mesprit i guess lol), so some teams won't have a fairy resistance. The only mons in the S/A ranks that resist fairy are Charizard, Magneton, and Oricorio. On top of specs moonblast being a pain to switch into, Whimsicott has an incredible utility movepool, with options such as Encore, Subseed, and Switcheroo, which are very good at crippling mons like Snorlax who could care less about special attacks (seriously if you never leech seeded a Snorlax you are missing out). It's a travesty that this mon is in B+ right now, especially in Spiritomb meta.
A- -> BIt's hard to justify. It's fine at best as a HO lead, and since that's how people use it, it should be ranked one above the next best designated HO lead in Froslass. There's even an argument that Froslass and Lycan are about equal as HO leads, but I'm not nomming this to B- when it can run other sets. I really wish CB, LO, or AoA sets were good and popular, but you get outsped by the base 115 squad alongside stuff like Whimsicott and Jolteon. It's not a bad mon, but it's not made waves, and it's not fitting onto teams like an A- mon should.
B -> B+Grouping these together because they are similar. Both of them are slow, 'bulky,' special attackers that are very difficult to switch into. I think they are both equally strong into our meta's walls and equally capable of ripping through teams.
B -> B-Usually, if I'm in a spot where I'm putting cryogonal on a team, I'm rebuilding it because I messed up the structure somewhere. Not to say it's that bad, but nobody knows how to use it (OFFENSIVELY) and that includes me.
And here are the quick noms for mons I don't have anything real to add:
-> down.I'm just a hater. They aren't easy to build around and usually don't make their way onto my teams, and aren't mons I prep for
B+ -> BShould prob be in the 'im just a hater' category. Vikavolt, Clawitzer, and Eggy-a are right there. It has a good support movepool, but so does Whimsicott.
-> higherif i pretend im incapable of tilt, this is why i didnt qualify for ZULT. This and a lot of regirock. And tilt.
(to add, it's like if Worse Snorlax didn't have to tera and got knock)
B -> B+It's a real fighting resist that dares both sneasels and passimian to hit it. Take the helmet chip or do a negligible amount of damage. Stay in and let me wisp you. Take that extra recoil Floatzel. I dare you.
same or lowerG-terrain isn't easy to use. Floatzel clicks ice spinner. Braviary (when someone uses it) clicks defog. Charizard clicks roar. Snorlax clicks curse again. This meta isn't HO friendly, and if you disagree I'll add to the word count later.
A- -> Aagree
No nom just want to see it voted on. I think B is honestly fine for it, but I've been impressed with it enough to where I can agree with a B+ for it.
A- -> Agood mon
out of curiosity what type of style does this metagame support in your opinion would you say it is more offensive to bulky offense oriented as stall and defensive teams don’t seem as good as offensive teams that are not hyper offensive from what i have experienced
: UR -> C+Trevenant @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Poltergeist
- Sucker Punch
- Rest
I feel like this mon needs to be ranked, I got reqs with it using basically the same set as in PU. I found that it compresses a spinblocker, status absorber and grass type wallbreaker into one. Unlike Shaymin, it can act as an emergency speed control measure, and it also gets other niche options like Knock Off and Rock Slide, giving it more of an utility role or lure dangerous mons like Oricorio-F.
Rises:
A- > A
The guys above have already made a good case for it, very strong and easy to fit in mon.
B > B+
I feel like Clawitzer has been getting way more usage lately and that doesn't surprise me, this thing really packs a punch and very few mons in the tier can safely switch-in in front of it, even in the worst match ups Claws usually manages to go 1 for 1 at least.
B- > B
Basically the same as Clawitzer but on the physical side, not as good due to current ZU having way better physical walls than special ones, but still very effective and a bit more flexible with different viable sets other than cb, like sr setter or av.
UR > C+
A-Raichu being unranked is simply mind-boggling, it's a mon that definitely has a niche in the meta thanks to surge surfer making it a premier eterrain sweeper. Even beyond that, it can sometimes be considered over Jolteon thanks to the access to stab psyshock, allowing it to effectively hit many would-be checks like Snorlax or Lanturn.
UR > C
Komala is by far the best spinner for volturn cores. Its access to u-turn allows him to partecipate in the pivoting chain and its great attack and access to a stab rapid spin and a powerful knock off for ghost types makes it a way less passive option that doesn't lose as much tempo as Sandslash and Hitmontop. A decent special defense and unique status immunity also makes it a decent zard soft-check when ran with a bulkier AV set.
UR > C-
i know this wont pass, but shoutout to my boi Dedenne
Drops:
B- > C
We already dropped this some time ago, and considering its meta presence hasn't improved one bit since, i'd say it's about time for it to take another step down. It's not strong enough to do anything while unboosted and too frail to safely setup, and even if it manages to, it's still getting outsped by common picks like Float, Whimsicott and the Sneasel twins.
B- > C+
Not much to say, B- just seems a bit high for this.
C+ > C
I'm convinced Sceptile is an unexplored pick that could actually find a good niche in the meta, but as of now nobody is using it, and its presence in a tier with mons with actual niches like Bellossom and Elektross is kinda hard to justify.
C > UR
I didn't even know Victreebel was in SV, i have no idea if it was a pre-dlc pick or something like that but i've literally never seen it being used.
Sun is already quite nichey right now and there are at least 4 or 5 abusers that are just straight up better, the only real reason to slot this thing in is just if it is your favorite pokémon.
A- > AThe guys above have already made a good case for it, very strong and easy to fit in mon.
B > B+I feel like Clawitzer has been getting way more usage lately and that doesn't surprise me, this thing really packs a punch and very few mons in the tier can safely switch-in in front of it, even in the worst match ups Claws usually manages to go 1 for 1 at least.
B- > BBasically the same as Clawitzer but on the physical side, not as good due to current ZU having way better physical walls than special ones, but still very effective and a bit more flexible with different viable sets other than cb, like sr setter or av.
UR > C+A-Raichu being unranked is simply mind-boggling, it's a mon that definitely has a niche in the meta thanks to surge surfer making it a premier eterrain sweeper. Even beyond that, it can sometimes be considered over Jolteon thanks to the access to stab psyshock, allowing it to effectively hit many would-be checks like Snorlax or Lanturn.
UR > CKomala is by far the best spinner for volturn cores. Its access to u-turn allows him to partecipate in the pivoting chain and its great attack and access to a stab rapid spin and a powerful knock off for ghost types makes it a way less passive option that doesn't lose as much tempo as Sandslash and Hitmontop. A decent special defense and unique status immunity also makes it a decent zard soft-check when ran with a bulkier AV set.
UR > C-i know this wont pass, but shoutout to my boi Dedenne
Drops:
B- > CWe already dropped this some time ago, and considering its meta presence hasn't improved one bit since, i'd say it's about time for it to take another step down. It's not strong enough to do anything while unboosted and too frail to safely setup, and even if it manages to, it's still getting outsped by common picks like Float, Whimsicott and the Sneasel twins.
B- > C+Not much to say, B- just seems a bit high for this.
C+ > CI'm convinced Sceptile is an unexplored pick that could actually find a good niche in the meta, but as of now nobody is using it, and its presence in a tier with mons with actual niches like Bellossom and Elektross is kinda hard to justify.
C > URI didn't even know Victreebel was in SV, i have no idea if it was a pre-dlc pick or something like that but i've literally never seen it being used.
Sun is already quite nichey right now and there are at least 4 or 5 abusers that are just straight up better, the only real reason to slot this thing in is just if it is your favorite pokémon.
it is a pretty Underrated mon imo and a good spin blocker depending on your team if a mon like spiritomb doesn’t fit in i also agree with this
Trevenant @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Poltergeist
- Sucker Punch
- Rest
RISES
-> A
god is this mon good. fairy is stupidly spammable in the tier, and this mon's strong moonblast paired with an amazing speed tier just above floatzel and the sneasels make its specs set a great wallbreaker. its resistances to floatzel's aqua jet, bonnet's sucker punch, and top's mach punch make it difficult to revenge kill, too. its utility encore pivot set is also great at stopping setup sweepers, and sub leech can sometimes farm teams. just an amazing mon that is easy to include on a huge variety of teams.
-> A
this mon has been a threat for a good while, and it doesn't seem to be stopping soon: its good natural bulk and defensive typing give it plenty of opportunities to setup, and with dark resists that don't die to psyshock/tera blast fairy being hard to come by, it can often just sweep on its own. its usage of trick room lets it destroy faster ho teams, and it's a great pick on those teams too to improve the ho mirror mu, while also being an easy fit on balance squads as a sweeper thanks to its defensive utility.
-> A
i feel like every time i see this mon in action it does something, and by something i mean cause destruction. solid natural bulk + decent defensive typing into the metagame, obscene spatk stat + very strong stab combo + eball coverage, and this mon wreaks havoc on so many slower teams. its access to sticky web makes its value not only reserved as a wallbreaker against slower walls, but also as a mon that can enable teammates to destroy faster threats, and as such giving even balance squads an extra form of speed control.
-> B+
-> B
bit of a mixed bag of mons but laddering with semistall for the suspect made me realise how good some of these mons are. weezing is a great physical wall on a good variety of teams, from balance to stall; poison typing + levitate make it a solid switchin to a lot of physical attackers, which it can punish via rocky helmet + wisp. naclstack is THE reason stall even works in sv zu, with its great bulk, useful rock typing, and immunity to status + access to recovery unlike regirock. salt cure is also amazing at making progress for the aforementioned stall teams. cuno can sometimes be a tera hog, since its typing is not great into the metagame but its godlike bulk lets it tank many hits you would not expect it to, even pre tera.
and now the nom everyone (noone) was waiting for:
-> A-
ce la sand. if you know me you know how big of a sand sucker i am, but i do believe that sand is at an all-time best rn, and that it's the best cheese you can be running, even above other weathers like hail and sun and other playstyles like trick room or terrain (i don't consider webs cheese considering how good vika is on any team). probo is a fantastic trade machine, often going 1 for 1 if not even 2 for 1, and you don't even have to spend your tera on it every time. slash and lycan make for strong fast sweepers, and the last 2 slots can be customised in many ways. a well piloted sand team can destroy so many squads, ranging from fat balance to ho, and win even matchups you wouldn't expect to.
DROPS
-> A-
this mon has been feeling less and less useful to fit on teams, despite its nice typing + coverage, just because of recent metagame trends not favoring it, such as the rise of jolteon, hwil, heasel, and whimsi, making its niche as an offensive threat with nice defensive utility into the metagame less relevant. it could still be useful if only it could make up for its defensive shortcomings by providing a lot of power, but alas, its lack of base atk and spatk stat is relevant more than ever now.
-> B+
similar to virizion, this mon has been witnessing a decline in usage, mainly due to not matching up as well as it used to into the metagame. its defensive typing is not that useful against many common threats, and its pretty bad spdef stat makes it also not so effective against those that it has a type advantage against, such as jolteon, mowtom, and whimsi. its middle of the road speed stat makes it outsped by a ton of other mons, and i've felt that building with this mon feels weird.
-> B
this mon is not a better physical wall than stuff like mesprit or weezing. mono dark is pretty middling as a defensive typing, losing to the many fighting types of the tier, and its reliance on foul play for damage makes it an inconsistent check to even stuff like hwil or bonnet. its lack of recovery, almost-obligation to run boots instead of helmet, and weakness to uturn also make it almost useless against voltturn-type teams, being very easy to wear out over time.
-> Agod is this mon good. fairy is stupidly spammable in the tier, and this mon's strong moonblast paired with an amazing speed tier just above floatzel and the sneasels make its specs set a great wallbreaker. its resistances to floatzel's aqua jet, bonnet's sucker punch, and top's mach punch make it difficult to revenge kill, too. its utility encore pivot set is also great at stopping setup sweepers, and sub leech can sometimes farm teams. just an amazing mon that is easy to include on a huge variety of teams.
-> Athis mon has been a threat for a good while, and it doesn't seem to be stopping soon: its good natural bulk and defensive typing give it plenty of opportunities to setup, and with dark resists that don't die to psyshock/tera blast fairy being hard to come by, it can often just sweep on its own. its usage of trick room lets it destroy faster ho teams, and it's a great pick on those teams too to improve the ho mirror mu, while also being an easy fit on balance squads as a sweeper thanks to its defensive utility.
-> Ai feel like every time i see this mon in action it does something, and by something i mean cause destruction. solid natural bulk + decent defensive typing into the metagame, obscene spatk stat + very strong stab combo + eball coverage, and this mon wreaks havoc on so many slower teams. its access to sticky web makes its value not only reserved as a wallbreaker against slower walls, but also as a mon that can enable teammates to destroy faster threats, and as such giving even balance squads an extra form of speed control.
-> B+ -> Bbit of a mixed bag of mons but laddering with semistall for the suspect made me realise how good some of these mons are. weezing is a great physical wall on a good variety of teams, from balance to stall; poison typing + levitate make it a solid switchin to a lot of physical attackers, which it can punish via rocky helmet + wisp. naclstack is THE reason stall even works in sv zu, with its great bulk, useful rock typing, and immunity to status + access to recovery unlike regirock. salt cure is also amazing at making progress for the aforementioned stall teams. cuno can sometimes be a tera hog, since its typing is not great into the metagame but its godlike bulk lets it tank many hits you would not expect it to, even pre tera.
and now the nom everyone (noone) was waiting for:
-> A-ce la sand. if you know me you know how big of a sand sucker i am, but i do believe that sand is at an all-time best rn, and that it's the best cheese you can be running, even above other weathers like hail and sun and other playstyles like trick room or terrain (i don't consider webs cheese considering how good vika is on any team). probo is a fantastic trade machine, often going 1 for 1 if not even 2 for 1, and you don't even have to spend your tera on it every time. slash and lycan make for strong fast sweepers, and the last 2 slots can be customised in many ways. a well piloted sand team can destroy so many squads, ranging from fat balance to ho, and win even matchups you wouldn't expect to.
DROPS
-> A-this mon has been feeling less and less useful to fit on teams, despite its nice typing + coverage, just because of recent metagame trends not favoring it, such as the rise of jolteon, hwil, heasel, and whimsi, making its niche as an offensive threat with nice defensive utility into the metagame less relevant. it could still be useful if only it could make up for its defensive shortcomings by providing a lot of power, but alas, its lack of base atk and spatk stat is relevant more than ever now.
-> B+similar to virizion, this mon has been witnessing a decline in usage, mainly due to not matching up as well as it used to into the metagame. its defensive typing is not that useful against many common threats, and its pretty bad spdef stat makes it also not so effective against those that it has a type advantage against, such as jolteon, mowtom, and whimsi. its middle of the road speed stat makes it outsped by a ton of other mons, and i've felt that building with this mon feels weird.
-> Bthis mon is not a better physical wall than stuff like mesprit or weezing. mono dark is pretty middling as a defensive typing, losing to the many fighting types of the tier, and its reliance on foul play for damage makes it an inconsistent check to even stuff like hwil or bonnet. its lack of recovery, almost-obligation to run boots instead of helmet, and weakness to uturn also make it almost useless against voltturn-type teams, being very easy to wear out over time.
Some post-zuwc noms where I'd significantly change a ranking. Shifts are soon so these noms won't really matter much but after grinding this tier with Europe and others (shadow, estra, diego, MJ, and i guess.... tony...) ZU feels sort of solved to me? Maybe it's cause people just aren't using the most dangerous sets on mons, so I/europe don't need to come up with counterplay since our opponents continue to use the same sets over and over. That might sound a bit boastful and it may be the wrong conclusion, but yeah ZU does sort of feel stagnant and only EU and nordics seemed to try to push the envelope this ZUWC as far as new ways to effectively tackle the meta. No, Tony, your stall is klawful. All this said I did enjoy sv zu in zuwc, it forces you to play at a blitz speed pace which is to my liking, however at the end all my teams started looking the same, there's almost no variance because if you want a team that doesn't lose to all the good stuff you just end up with the same structure which is what i mean by solved.
Drops
A+ -> A-/B+
The fire typing is nice because I think Whimsicott is the best mon in the tier, but it flops in so many mus or relies on hurricane confusion which is sort of insanely terrible. Only use if the defensive profile + speed is mandatory. Best set is tera steel roar which can save you in a pinch.
A+ -> A-/B+
No bulk, kills itself if it tries to do any damage, hazard weak. Only used 1 in all zuwc when we knew our opp would bring shoddy water resists. Can still cook but by no means a premier threat of the tier. Water absorb/Grasses/hazards are just too common for it to be my immediate teambuilding choice.
S -> A+/A it's just not excellent at any role, 
and 
A+->A dunno not really scary mons, agree with dropping its shit when top 2 is whimsicot heasel, 
is legitimately terrible and i'd never use it, drop and :lycanrock:, 
is worse than every mon in B so drop to B/B- its incredible how awful it feels to play as an orthworm.
Rises
B+ -> S/A+
This thing is insane and probably the best mon in the tier. The only checks to it are bad mons LOL. Subseed set is the goat but moonblast keeps you honest in the builder too. Amazing check to so so much, a safety net vs set up and damn hard to check long term.
, and 
A -> S/A+
Along with whimsi probably the most restricting mons in the tier. Most teams just lose on preview although tomb has been adapted to well. Sneasel-hisui has no counters besides weezing and spiritomb, as well as some short term counters like slash and mesprit but those eat chip so fast. Weezing is beaten by a sub set. Qwilfish has so many viable SD sets cause the 4th move is free. Agility, scale shot, aqua jet, taunt, sub. Tomb has seen some adaptation from teams running more fairies and darks, but the defensive typing is incredible here while offense is great too. Wouldn't consider this one S tho.
B -> A+
Weezing is the best physdef blanket wall in the tier cause its a non passive fighting counter that punishes uturn, can act as a knock off absorber and doesnt lose to Heasel (unless they run EU sub set). Running a ton of speed on this guy is highly recommended due to how effective fast taunts are. You can catch something with a fast dbond too. Lanturn rank is fine I just wanted to say I love a fast offensive AV set on teams that are able to drop boots.
B -> A
Premier special breaker thats way too low currently. Modest claw speed tier is esssential to outspeed for anything slower that can reach that speed tier.
UR -> B-/B
France started to bring this at the end and as we were building with it too. Great breaker, shitty but ok in tough situations spinblocker though unfortunately must run jolly to get the jump on claw.
Recent VR noms I disagree with: dropping persian (its ok as secondary physical guy and scarf is my fav set), dont raise sand, tizio said komala is a better spinner than slash/top (what the hell!?), do not drop Bonnet that mon is amazing and highly splashable you just need a uturn punish helmet mon, luckily weezing is the goat.
Drops
A+ -> A-/B+The fire typing is nice because I think Whimsicott is the best mon in the tier, but it flops in so many mus or relies on hurricane confusion which is sort of insanely terrible. Only use if the defensive profile + speed is mandatory. Best set is tera steel roar which can save you in a pinch.
A+ -> A-/B+No bulk, kills itself if it tries to do any damage, hazard weak. Only used 1 in all zuwc when we knew our opp would bring shoddy water resists. Can still cook but by no means a premier threat of the tier. Water absorb/Grasses/hazards are just too common for it to be my immediate teambuilding choice.
S -> A+/A it's just not excellent at any role, and A+->A dunno not really scary mons, agree with dropping its shit when top 2 is whimsicot heasel, is legitimately terrible and i'd never use it, drop and :lycanrock:, is worse than every mon in B so drop to B/B- its incredible how awful it feels to play as an orthworm.Rises
B+ -> S/A+This thing is insane and probably the best mon in the tier. The only checks to it are bad mons LOL. Subseed set is the goat but moonblast keeps you honest in the builder too. Amazing check to so so much, a safety net vs set up and damn hard to check long term.
, and A -> S/A+Along with whimsi probably the most restricting mons in the tier. Most teams just lose on preview although tomb has been adapted to well. Sneasel-hisui has no counters besides weezing and spiritomb, as well as some short term counters like slash and mesprit but those eat chip so fast. Weezing is beaten by a sub set. Qwilfish has so many viable SD sets cause the 4th move is free. Agility, scale shot, aqua jet, taunt, sub. Tomb has seen some adaptation from teams running more fairies and darks, but the defensive typing is incredible here while offense is great too. Wouldn't consider this one S tho.
B -> A+Weezing is the best physdef blanket wall in the tier cause its a non passive fighting counter that punishes uturn, can act as a knock off absorber and doesnt lose to Heasel (unless they run EU sub set). Running a ton of speed on this guy is highly recommended due to how effective fast taunts are. You can catch something with a fast dbond too. Lanturn rank is fine I just wanted to say I love a fast offensive AV set on teams that are able to drop boots.
B -> APremier special breaker thats way too low currently. Modest claw speed tier is esssential to outspeed for anything slower that can reach that speed tier.
UR -> B-/BFrance started to bring this at the end and as we were building with it too. Great breaker, shitty but ok in tough situations spinblocker though unfortunately must run jolly to get the jump on claw.
Recent VR noms I disagree with: dropping persian (its ok as secondary physical guy and scarf is my fav set), dont raise sand, tizio said komala is a better spinner than slash/top (what the hell!?), do not drop Bonnet that mon is amazing and highly splashable you just need a uturn punish helmet mon, luckily weezing is the goat.
I agree with almost everything fish said in his post considering we've been prepping together for the entirety of zuwc, going to add thoughts I have on a few more mons and point out some disagreements
A- -> C+
Fish brought this up already, but this pokemon feels absolutely horrible to use, super slow, and with recent meta shifts it ends up basically never sweeping. Almost every team has a way of stopping it from sweeping with multiple faster mons, alluring voice jolteon and infiltrator spiritomb/specs whims going through sub, encore on a million mons, etc. The best set by far is band if your team excessively struggles with Floatzel, however, with the abundance of good grass types and two better WA mons in the tier I rarely find it necessary.
B+ -> C+
It's really hard to justify using hattrem these days. It feels extremely inconsistent to use as hazard control considering mesprit is a very prominent rocker that destroys it, and even sandslash can just knock it off and switch out. The only prominent rocker it actually matches well into is regirock. I will say it's a great pokemon on TR teams, but I don't think TR is a very good archetype. The second one its been used on is snow, and from my findings it has a felt a lot worse to use on it than other hazard control options such as: Hitmontop, Sandslash, Gurdurr, Taunt Weezing... It simply doesn't offer very much besides healing wish.
A- -> B-
Feels garbage outside of sand which is a niche archetype. Misses out on the extremely prevalent 115 speed tier, revenged by most prominent scarfers passimian and rotom-mow too. Completely owned by sandslash which is on like 30% of teams at this point. Weak to priority such as Bonnet sucker punch and Hitmontop mach punch. As a hazard lead, froslass is better.
B+ -> C
Fish already brought this up but I think moving it to B or B- would be underselling just how ass this mon is. Perrserker and Magneton are both better due to having an actual offensive presence, and if you are looking for spikes, there's multiple better options too. Gets worn down way too easily for how little it accomplishes.
A- -> A+/ S
Best role compression in the tier with knock, hazard and spin, checks a great deal of mons, most notably Qwilfish-H and Sneasel-H which have been on the rise. Fits on like everything from HO to stall.
B+ -> A-
A great option for removal if you are looking for something more offensive than Sandslash. Most notably, its able to spin versus spiritomb teams much more consistently than sandslash, with triple axel being a clean 2HKO on spiritomb. It +provides a decent form of speed control versus offensive teams with technician boosted Mach/Bullet punch. Speaking of triple axel, I would say this is Hitmontops greatest strength and biggest weakness at the same time. Adamant Technician TA is extremely hard to switch into for most teams, however, you will have to put up with it's horrible accuracy and with the rocky helmet weakness, protective pads feels mandatory. Still, I believe it's worth using a lot of the time because of just how strong it is.
A- -> A+
Snorlax has felt really good recently as a blanket counter to basically every special sweeper in the tier (with the exception of full hp spiritomb). With orthworms huge falloff, regirock is the only thing left that is really annoying for snorlax to match into. It trades well into almost everything else and gets great value.
Keep in mind curse is an absolutely horrible set, the only viable snorlax set is rest talk with a lot of attack investment, it's better at both making progress and walling what it needs to wall.
C -> B
Cool alternative to Charizard. Feels more consistent than zard because of access to knock off which all the fire checks hate switching into. Can also go earthquake which 2hkoes lanturn with a bit of chip. Speed is lower but very importantly it still outspeeds mesprit, qwilfish and passimian. Biggest downside compared to zard is the lack of flying typing, missing out on a second stab and on a fighting resistance which comes up often considering the plethora of viable fighting types in ZU.
What I disagree with fish on:
Moving this up to A would be unjustified imo. Besides a few games in pools (two from fish and a few more from people stealing fish's teams), I did not see very much clawitzer in ZUWC, and I think it's for good reason. Versus more offensive teams, it provides absolutely nothing for your team being both extremely frail and extremely slow. I find that there's many better breakers such as Specs Whimsicott, Banded Passimian, Specs Jolteon etc. While these pokemon are definitely not as strong as clawitzer, they make up for it for not being deadweight in a bunch of matchups because they have actual speed, bulk, or both. Almost every clawitzer team I see has some sort of hole in their defensive profile, because they're spending a whole slot on clawitzer.
Definitely still super scary and still the best scarfer in the tier. Consistent revenge killer, provides good entry points for anything in the back and forces literally every team to have a grass type. My opinion of it has only gone up since ZUWC started.
A- -> C+Fish brought this up already, but this pokemon feels absolutely horrible to use, super slow, and with recent meta shifts it ends up basically never sweeping. Almost every team has a way of stopping it from sweeping with multiple faster mons, alluring voice jolteon and infiltrator spiritomb/specs whims going through sub, encore on a million mons, etc. The best set by far is band if your team excessively struggles with Floatzel, however, with the abundance of good grass types and two better WA mons in the tier I rarely find it necessary.
B+ -> C+It's really hard to justify using hattrem these days. It feels extremely inconsistent to use as hazard control considering mesprit is a very prominent rocker that destroys it, and even sandslash can just knock it off and switch out. The only prominent rocker it actually matches well into is regirock. I will say it's a great pokemon on TR teams, but I don't think TR is a very good archetype. The second one its been used on is snow, and from my findings it has a felt a lot worse to use on it than other hazard control options such as: Hitmontop, Sandslash, Gurdurr, Taunt Weezing... It simply doesn't offer very much besides healing wish.
A- -> B-Feels garbage outside of sand which is a niche archetype. Misses out on the extremely prevalent 115 speed tier, revenged by most prominent scarfers passimian and rotom-mow too. Completely owned by sandslash which is on like 30% of teams at this point. Weak to priority such as Bonnet sucker punch and Hitmontop mach punch. As a hazard lead, froslass is better.
B+ -> CFish already brought this up but I think moving it to B or B- would be underselling just how ass this mon is. Perrserker and Magneton are both better due to having an actual offensive presence, and if you are looking for spikes, there's multiple better options too. Gets worn down way too easily for how little it accomplishes.
A- -> A+/ SBest role compression in the tier with knock, hazard and spin, checks a great deal of mons, most notably Qwilfish-H and Sneasel-H which have been on the rise. Fits on like everything from HO to stall.
B+ -> A-A great option for removal if you are looking for something more offensive than Sandslash. Most notably, its able to spin versus spiritomb teams much more consistently than sandslash, with triple axel being a clean 2HKO on spiritomb. It +provides a decent form of speed control versus offensive teams with technician boosted Mach/Bullet punch. Speaking of triple axel, I would say this is Hitmontops greatest strength and biggest weakness at the same time. Adamant Technician TA is extremely hard to switch into for most teams, however, you will have to put up with it's horrible accuracy and with the rocky helmet weakness, protective pads feels mandatory. Still, I believe it's worth using a lot of the time because of just how strong it is.
A- -> A+Snorlax has felt really good recently as a blanket counter to basically every special sweeper in the tier (with the exception of full hp spiritomb). With orthworms huge falloff, regirock is the only thing left that is really annoying for snorlax to match into. It trades well into almost everything else and gets great value.
Keep in mind curse is an absolutely horrible set, the only viable snorlax set is rest talk with a lot of attack investment, it's better at both making progress and walling what it needs to wall.
C -> BCool alternative to Charizard. Feels more consistent than zard because of access to knock off which all the fire checks hate switching into. Can also go earthquake which 2hkoes lanturn with a bit of chip. Speed is lower but very importantly it still outspeeds mesprit, qwilfish and passimian. Biggest downside compared to zard is the lack of flying typing, missing out on a second stab and on a fighting resistance which comes up often considering the plethora of viable fighting types in ZU.
What I disagree with fish on:
Moving this up to A would be unjustified imo. Besides a few games in pools (two from fish and a few more from people stealing fish's teams), I did not see very much clawitzer in ZUWC, and I think it's for good reason. Versus more offensive teams, it provides absolutely nothing for your team being both extremely frail and extremely slow. I find that there's many better breakers such as Specs Whimsicott, Banded Passimian, Specs Jolteon etc. While these pokemon are definitely not as strong as clawitzer, they make up for it for not being deadweight in a bunch of matchups because they have actual speed, bulk, or both. Almost every clawitzer team I see has some sort of hole in their defensive profile, because they're spending a whole slot on clawitzer.
Definitely still super scary and still the best scarfer in the tier. Consistent revenge killer, provides good entry points for anything in the back and forces literally every team to have a grass type. My opinion of it has only gone up since ZUWC started.
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A+ -> A-
The evil is starting to be vanquished, with the return of Porygon 2, Jolteon has been easier to counter due to Porygon 2’s special bulk and ability to trace volt absorb to gain an electric immunity making it nearly impossible for Jolteon to break through even with multiple Calm Mind boosts, its still annoying for teams that don’t run Porygon 2, but the influence of P2 on Jolt is beginning to show.
-> A+
This pokemon is great, its takes hits well even if it its only has 252 evs in hp, is one of the tier’s best special walls with eviolite, has solid special attack and its charge beam sets still go hard and are consistent at mid or late game cleaning, its amazing in this current metagame.
C+ -> C: this pokemon isn’t doing too hot rn (no type based pun intended). Its harder to sweep with given its frailty and lack of speed without speed boost, its mostly match up reliant and struggles to get opportunities to set up swords dance because it tends to get chunked and/or forced out by common offensive mons like Jolteon and Misamagius. Even pokemon it can hit super effectively like rotom mow and Virizion give it trouble because they chunk it heavily (and outright kill it if it was chipped prior!) and make it quite vulnerable to priority.
Dugtrio Alola C -> UnrankedMesprit is immunized to EQ. Rotom-Mow resists the dual stab. Regirock takes 35% and one shots it back. Sneasel/Sneasel-Hisui/Floatzel/Whimsicott/Passimian scarf/Beartic under hail/Minior/Lycanroc all outspeeds Dugtrio-alola and one shot it. Virizon/Glastrier/Sandslash/Shaymin/Snorlax/Abomasnow all wins the 1v1. Spiritomb/Vikavolt trade the 1v1. Hitmontop Mach Punch one shots.
Within the rest of the A rank, Dugtrio-Alola can win its 1v1 versus Charizard, Jolteon, Magneton, Lanturn and Oricorio. Alolan Dugtrio cannot safely switch into any of these Pokémon and loses the duel if they Terastallize. Its match up against some mons ranked in B like Weezing, Dipplin, Orthworn, Persian-Alola is just as bad if not worse. It simply is hard to justify a niche for this Pokemon.
Crocalor Unranked -> C+Crocalor has been played twice in ZULT where the stall team won the two games and it also saw usage for the suspect test of Porygon2. It is viable and should therefore be ranked. C+ looks like a good beginning.
Camerupt Unranked -> CCamerupt sees usage in Trick room both on ladder and ZULT.
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