Lower Tiers ADV LC

[Soda_Eesti]

87.5% majority for the suspect is wild. Makes me wonder why the suspect even happened in the first place. If it really was an issue people who played the tier cared about the Super Majority wouldnt have been this high let alone reached day one.

o7 grape. Not sure how this tier was managed before or even now but its always sad when a tier leader steps down.

 

[Quinn]

87.5% majority for the suspect is wild. Makes me wonder why the suspect even happened in the first place. If it really was an issue people who played the tier cared about the Super Majority wouldnt have been this high let alone reached day one.

o7 grape. Not sure how this tier was managed before or even now but its always sad when a tier leader steps down.

Sometimes people have very loud opinion on a matter while others don't agree this caused a suspect test but turns out the players that played the tier thought diglett is fine

 

[Onraider]

Appreciate the effort everyone here has put into this thread and the tier given its an old gen and also an LC tier especially, lots to read and learn for someone trying to get into the tier

 

[Shing]

I posted my teams for every round at ADV LC Cup 2, and I'm very aware it would be drowned in where no one would use their time to find the teams. Because I care a lot about preserving every available information of this tier regardless of time, I'm gonna just link all of the rounds in here so it's not forgotten.

Round 1 + 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5
Semifinals
Finals

I've not forgotten about promising to continue the topic from my previous post. I just lacked motivation and struggled to write the next post, and since ADVPL was close, I was recommended to not post this until after ADVPL. I'll go back to this after ADV PL, even if it will be outdated. And yes, I still have plans to write some history on sudden mons n such, but I think the lead/midgame/endgame project has to be revisited so I don't get burned out after writing each. I'll finish all of the stuff I want to talk about, even if the tier becomes inactive or even "dead" because it matters to me personally.

 

[evakiyama!]

With the Anglerfish's ADVPL season coming to an end, I thought it was a fine time to do a little writeup of some teams I've worked on for this tier in ADV LC Cup II/ADVPL/LPL. It's not a huge list or anything but I still wanted to share my teams and ideas as someone who's really new to this tier and finds it really interesting and fun. (click on the sprites for the pastes!) This is my first time doing a teamdump like this so sorry if it's like a bit awkward or whatever lmaoo

ADVPL Week 5 vs Alder ST: W

The first idea that came to me when looking at Alder's scout was lead Chinchou that was followed up by Trapinch to revenge the high amount of Diglett in the scout. I took inspiration from this Shing team he dropped in his LCBC teamdump, especially the Magnemite set. I thought Timid HP Fire was a really cool way of eliminating opposing Magnemite to open up Abra and Elekid sets that can't touch it. I was experimenting with a variety of different Abra sets for this team, especially Barrier CM Psychic Thief, but in testing I realized the team really struggles with lead Snubbull, which led to me deciding I wanted 228+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam + 236 SpA Abra Psychic to be able to always pick off extremely specially defensive Snubbulls. Maybe any other offensive Abra set is just as viable on this team, but I liked Endure Salac as a way to deal with Chlorophyll sweepers in the case of opposing Trapinch being used to remove Magnemite earlier on.

ADVPL Week 6 vs Raichy: L

Raichy's scout had very high Snubbull, but outside of that most of the teams had Wailmer as the sole water resist with the rest of the mons all dropping to Horsea quite easily. Thus I had the idea of RainSpikes, since Horsea's Rain-boosted Hydro Pump guarenteed kills even the fattest Snubbuls after a single Spike. Forcing the Wail on Wail trade felt practical enough since there wasn't much else in the scout that could eat Water Spout early on. I'm a pretty big fan of CB Dig + Spikes at the moment, feels very very strong being able to pick off Staryu after 1 Spike and even more defensive pieces from Trapinch to Snubbull to a slightly further chipped SpDef Wailmer. Another Shing idea of extremely SpDef HP Ground Voltorb was used here, working with Duskull to hold off Sun and opposing Electrics without a bulky Ground trapper. Unfortunately, I failed to realize that the team has Horsea and thus will never win.

ADVPL Week 7 vs reggg: W

First and foremost, Quarante8 is primarily responsible for this team. I've made some tweaks to some of the sets/spreads and also made the suggestion of Gastly, but he did most of the work. I think the really cool part about this team is the way that Explosion Exeggcute and Gastly open the way for each other. There was Ponyta/Houndour in the scout on both offensive teams that struggle vs Sun and balanced teams that are very annoyed by Wisp Thief Gastly. We felt good about our odds of hinging on Trapinch to remove Diglett for Abra and Fires for Egg/Gastly because of the absence of Spikes in the scout.

Misc. teams I built for other tours/for fun

I built this team for ADV LC Cup II, the main idea was that Toxic Overheat Ponyta serves as a way to reverse momentum vs back Spikers, revenge Anorith, and lure Wailmer/Trapinch for back Anorith/Elekid respectively. I think this team kinda like shows my "checkboxes" of stuff I think about when I'm building: you have the fastmons in Ponyta and Elekid, the Water resist in Wailmer, the various special checks in Ponyta, Trapinch, SpDef Wailmer, and HP Ghost Elekid, and the physical checks in Anorith + Wailmer*. Wailmer sole water check is definitely exploitable and it's something I try not to use too too much.


I think this is just a team I built for fun some random evening when I was thinking about making a really Water-resilient team. I realized most of my teams are pretty offensive and I wanted to try building something a bit more balanced/bulky. Staryu as a backup water resist + fastmon is really really cool IMO. I'm not sure if this team is like fully refined since it was a bit of an early attempt as something bulky. The sun MU is kinda tricky, I was thinking Thief Snubbull would help but maybe it's still not enough with the double water Diglett Lileep. I was really into the whole Dual Screens Thief Abra lead at this time (the team above has it too lmfao), maybe there's something better here. Basically I think Staryu + Wailmer double water stuff is definitely cool and there's something there even if this isn't like a totally solid build.


I think this team is pretty cool, I feel like there's a lot of really nice overlapping defensive synergy. Snubbull/Houndour/HP Ghost Elekid to deal with Abra, Snubbull/Houndour/HP Bug Trapinch to deal with Sun, Toxic Snubbull lead + SubBolt Staryu for Wailmer lead. Lileep + Snubbull just feels really bulky and solid and nice to play around on balance and I like pairing them with Staryu instead of Wailmer for the speed + reversal vs SD Anorith. Houndour tends to get trapped early on, especially versus teams that stack its targets like Chlorophyll sweepers, Abra, Gastly, etc. I liked the idea of Leer + 10 Speed Trapinch to be able to consistantly remove opposing Trapinch and Diglett to open up HP Ghost Elekid who cleans Abra and Gastly later on. Endure I think is pretty nice here on Trapinch especially to enforce the trap vs things with Spikes up but also after opposing Trapinch Quick Attacks you into range of various hits, especially with the lack of SpDef EVs.

Thank you for your time if you've read this teamdump all the way through, I hope there was something to be gained from reading it. I'm very glad to have been introduced to this tier's community and hope to compete the next time an ADV LC team tour happens.

 

[Shing]

LCPL 2025 SIGNUPS NOW OPEN​

I'm happy to announce that ADV LC is featured in one of LC's main team tournaments, LCPL. You can sign up by making a post here.
The player signups will be open till around 29th May. Good luck to anyone signing up for ADV LC :)

 

[Shing]

The next post will be in a few days. Just gonna ramble about some more sets on certain mons on before going to the topic such as
- Utilize Hidden Power more
- Taking Toxic + Sub(not necessarily in same mon) combo to the next level
- Perhaps some cores that I never quite completed
- other stuff(most likely not bc I don't want it to become too random and boring tbh)

Continuing from here, I'll go through other Hidden Power types I've used, ranging from the most useful to niche ones I've used. Why do you ask? It's because I think Hidden Power is unutilized even today, and it's not documented as well to the public. The only way you would get any info on them would be by asking me, Naere, or other ADV LC players, but not all of us share the same opinions or have equal knowledge on it. So I decided to make this so you will get some understanding of how I use Hidden Power in this tier. I'll go through why it's used, who uses the moves, and the drawbacks of using it. This will let you quickly figure out each one's EV Spread, as Hidden Power can often determine the Pokémon's EV Spreads. I hope this will help you create something new that no one else has done yet.

Before I begin, there's a skill check that every new player has to learn and adapt, and that is the default IV spread the teambuilder recommends isn't always right or optimal at all. The biggest example is Hidden Power Bug, default runs 31/30/30/31/30/31, which is inferior to 31/31/31/31/30/30. There are certain IV Spreads that would cover up your desired EV spread that the default does not. Make sure you double-check before the match, especially if you're changing the moves in order, or paste it in the Smogtours teambuilder. I think this issue is frustrating to encounter every time, and I'll report this if there is something to do with this issue. In meanwhile though, I'll post an image on EV+IV spreads of the one that fits the description of the Pokémon. To find the IVs changer, I'll post a screenshot below where you can find it in the teambuilder.

Image

Hidden Power Ground
​

It's used against the Electric Types, most notably Chinchou and Magnemite, due to their unique defensive typing, synergizing well with Substitute. But I do think Hidden Power Ground is overrated, as there are better ways to approach the two I mentioned above. But sometimes you just want to gain an upper hand vs Electric types, or your team cannot afford to use other mons to handle them. Most of them are Special Attackers over Physical Attackers in comparison, despite Ground being a physical move.

/ Grouping these since both of them have similar purposes as Electrics are the best at switching vs opposing Electric types lol. Elekid's drawback is that it can't use Substitute and Thief at the same time, as Ice Punch + Tbolt are mandatory IMO. Elekid doesn't have any changes on EV Spread besides adding 12 atk EVs to gain one point, but you can argue about its nature. Hasty lets you 2hko Chinchou, but you become more vulnerable vs opposing 20 Electrics Tbolt into HP Ground, while Timid helps avoid that but has a nasty 45-55% roll vs Chinchou.
Voltorb gets hard-walled by Lileep, and there's conflict on deciding either Thief, Sub, or Toxic on Voltorb. There's also that you're vulnerable to trapping despite having Explosion, so I always prefer using Trapinch along with HP Ground Voltorb. As for Natures, Voltorb can afford running Timid or Hasty, though if you somehow had HP Ground + Rain Dance, then Hasty or Jolly even is preferred. Timid also wants Voltorb to have 36 Atk EVs so it 2HKOs Elekid. As for EV Spreads, I recommend these spreads so you don't need to make one.


Lileep uses this mainly to bypass Magnemite, but honestly, that's a good reason enough to use it as Lileep is also a strong Electric check under in right circumstances. You don't need to change the EV Spreads as it has enough EV points to fill out the 30 IVs slots. The huge drawback with it is that you're losing 1v1 vs Lileep and becoming setup fodder vs Bagon and Snubbull. Still, if your team can handle those mons and you want to force as much progress as possible, this is recommended.


If you've watched my games from LPL and LCBC, you know I've abused HP Ground Gastly to pressure Electrics, especially Magnemite and Chinchou. However, I've decreased my usage of it because I find HP Ground being too high a commitment to bring, and I feel like Thief + Psychic does its job besides vs Magnemite, and Magnemite still gets pressured by having a trapper behind/using other mons. Regardless, if you ever feel in need to use HP Ground Gastly, there are some slight dilemmas with nature. Timid doesn't let it OHKO Magnemite guaranteed, but Hasty is overall worse as 36 HP / 36 Def lets you survive vs things barely; most noticeable vs non CB Jolly Doduo. Besides that, Gastly doesn't have any major EV Spreads changes. Its moveset can be customized to its liking, but it's really hard to like grouping all of them since Gastly is very customizable. There's at least like 90% chance to see HP Ground + Thunderbolt together.


I used HP Ground so I had a way to break through Substitute Magnemite and Chinchou, and check them as Snorunt can OHKO/2HKO them. However, I've been labbing a lot, and you don't necessarily need to have HP Ground if your goal is to break sub. Ice Beam breaks Magnemite's sub, while Snorunt needs somewhere 120 SpA in order to break Chinchou's one. But I think it's a good option since Snorunt becomes a decent check vs both of them, especially with Light Screen, despite its purpose being a spiker. As for EV Spreads, both physdef or spdef invested works perfectly fine, but it's more likely optimal to make it Jolly/Bold/Careful if you want HP Ground to OHKO Magnmite/2HKO Chinchou, although you need one point in atk investment to 2HKO 56 Def Chinchou. Then again, I haven't taken into account on Icy Wind Rolls, but I think if you value some breaking, I recommend those natures. Here are some spreads I like with Snorunt.


I used to use Hidden Power Ground before, but I found it too big of a commitment, so I dropped it for Flamethrower/Fire Blast. The problem with Hidden Power Ground was that it left you in a big 4mss against Gastly cores IMO, and then had some awkward coverage that it just felt underwhelming to use it. It's not super useful, but I think there are much better sets to use, though Koffing does have some awkward 4mss as ADV LC mons since you'd like Toxic/Will O Wisp, Thief, and Explosion, which leaves you for one attack lol. If you want to bring HP Ground Koffing through, I recommend these sets.


Duskull has a similar dilemma to Gastly, but it wants to have HP Ground if you want to pressure Magnemite and Chinchou. It's not like it's mandatory for Duskull, but Duskull is already in a tough spot as an ADV LC Mon, and HP Ground helps it have some threat. As for moveset, besides the mandatory Shadow Ball, there are sets you can customize it with, somewhere as Icy Wind/Ice Beam, Thief, Memento, etc. As for EV Spreads? Well, if you want to be super secure vs Abra, then max HP max SpDef is the ideal set, but if you're willing to throw that out, you can have a lot of trollish sets but no one has seen it yet so at best just use the smogdex as a reference for that. Other than that, Duskull can't afford to run -Atk nature due to HP Ground Rolls.


Just a coverage move for Magnemite. It's alright, but I think HP Steel, HP Ghost, and Body Slam are by far the better moves, as Magnemite isn't worth the effort to bring it with.

Hidden Power Bug
​

Unless you're Anorith for STAB, this is specifically for Exeggcute but can be used vs Abra and other grass types as well. A lot of teams may fall short against Exeggcute in late-game scenarios, so Hidden Power Bug is a strong answer to that. For Abra, as long as you're able to revenge kill by either outspeeding it or taking a hit from +1 Abra and OHKO back, you're an option. But unlike Exeggcute, the options vs Abra are more limited, and those who use it for Abra will always have Atk investment on its EV Spread. As mentioned above, the default IV Spread is the inferior version, and almost always goes with 31/31/31/31/30/30.


HP Bug Anorith has a slight dilemma where you cannot simultaneously be 18 Speed and tank CB Doduo/Diglett hits guaranteed. So Anorith Spreads tends to be 17 Speed or have a 6.3 roll to die from CB Doduo Drill Peck and CB Diglett EQ. Something like...
EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 160 Spe or EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
As for the occasionally Impish SD Lead, you're able to run at least 16 in Speed without any stress, looking like this
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 160 Spe


Elekid is the only Pokémon that can comfortably switch in vs Abra while being able to revenge kill it as it has a near-perfect roll against it (94.7 - 115.7%). The 76 EVs can go either SpA or HP. SpA gives you slightly better rolls, while 1 point HP gives you guaranteed rolls to survive vs Special Attackers, most noticeably Exeggcute's Solarbeam. But there's a double-edged sword running this set. You'll notice how much losing SpA investment matters. Not being able to OHKO Max Atk CB Diglett, not a guaranteed 2hko on Lileep, and just worse damage rolls is something you will notice, and it will suck when you're facing like Snubbull for example. But either way, it's a nice set if you notice the opponent brings a lot of endgame Exeggcute/Abra. This set is more than likely to appear if the opponent has Trapinch, as I believe the set needs Trapinch as a mandatory team, unless proven wrong.


Lileep has a 37.5% chance to OHKO Abra, but whenever you're using HP Bug, it's mainly for Exeggcute since you take any hits with ease while easily revenge killing it back. Otherwise, I think Hidden Power Ghost is superior, and HP Bug Lileep has many drawbacks. In terms of checking teams, it's vulnerable vs Gastly, unable to break through Sub Magnemite, has a worse 1v1 vs Lileep, and makes itself set up fodder vs Bagon. At least there aren't any IV drops that ruin it, but Lileep rarely has any problems with EV spreads due to the amount of EV points left it has.


It's just basically used as an option to punish Exeggcute for trying to set up Sun on it. It has other applications vs Exegg as Exegg's only move beside Explosion is Solarbeam, so Trapinch can act as a trapper vs it. I don't really enjoy using HP Bug Trapinch as I cannot be simultaneously 9 in Speed and 13 in SpDef. There's also that you're omega cooked vs Doduo and Gastly. But I think this is fine to fit in if your team is built in a way that Exeggcute cannot get any opportunities to pull out the sun. The normal EVs: 156 HP / 116 Atk / 76 Def / 160 SpD work perfectly fine as long as you don't forget to change the IV Spreads from default.


No one uses Hidden Power Bug Diglett because Bulky Diglett uses up all of its EV Points, and CB Diglett prefers HP Ghost. But Sitrus set can use Hidden Power Bug, as the only viable defensive EV Spread I've thought would be EVs: 240 SpD / 236 Spe, where you're at least able to remove Elekid, although you can get away with Endure Salac. This set is obviously a fishy trap against Exeggcute, so you're able to abuse Oddish way even harder. Diglett becomes infinitely weak vs so many mons, especially if you're running Sunny Day along with it.


Hidden Power Bug is nice for STAB Combo and nails down Abra and Exeggcute, but also good chip damage vs Grass types. But overall, it's not an option you'll see because Pineco has much better tools that cover more than the general. It's just nice to mention this because Pineco can act threaten other ways than booming.


You're not gonna see this set, and if you pull that on me, you will not be ready on that when I catch you lacking...
This is a set I made out of fun because Chinchou can beat non-sub/barrier Abra 1v1. Surf has a high chance of not triggering Sitrus on +1 Abra, and HP Bug guarantees the kill right after. It's actually not too bad in terms of meta, but there are obvious drawbacks that you can't have -atk nature and therefore you're sacrificing power + speed in order to bulky as possible. But it's just a fun set I created due to my extensive labbing.

Hidden Power Ghost
​

More focused on Gastly and Abra, but can use it vs other Psychic, and is overall slightly more flexible than HP Bug IMO. But unlike HP Bug, most mons require 1 or 2 points of Atk EVs Investment to threaten the targets.


Same applications as HP Bug, just that you're putting more pressure vs Gastly as well in exchange for being worse vs Exeggcute.


Only good for Salac and CB set, as the IV drops at Spdef, making Spdef set less appealing for me. CB EV Spreads is just about the same, but the Salac set has to go through some minor adjustments. The EV Spread that I recommend with Salac set is EVs: 116 HP / 156 Atk / 236 Spe, and change the default IV spread into 31/31/30/31/30/31.


Hidden Power Ghost can be considered as an option to check vs Gastly, as they don't always run Will O Wisp, Giga Drain, and Hidden Power Ice.
There are some dilemmas on EV Spreads. Using the default IV Spread, you can't run 18 Atk along with the defensive set, and the second option is worse due to IV drops at Def and Attack. But you're able to afford running 9 in Speed, so you become a revenge killer against Lileep. Honestly, Trapinch doesn't necessarily need Attack investment on its sets. No Atk investment makes you just worse vs Bulky Abra, which is an ancient set, and EQ + QA are unable to secure vs Bagon, for example. I prefer 9 Speed a lot as Trapinch can 1v1 Lileep with ease.


Same applications as HP Bug, but you're hitting Gastly, and it's a roll to kill against 36 HP/36 Def when you use Giga Drain -> Hidden Power Ghost. And you still have the same weakness as HP Bug, especially vs Lileep in a 1v1, and you're not able to remove Exeggcute. Otherwise, I like this set when my team can't afford more Gastly switch-in checks.

/
Both have high base attack stats that they can use HP Ghost to OHKO Abra. Ponyta with 17 Attack OHKO's 76 Def Abra, but if you are willing to risk the 6.3 roll then no Attack investment is necessary for it, while Magby needs to have 1 point more in Atk to get the same roll as Ponyta. The Drawbacks for Ponyta are that it doesn't threaten Water Types anymore, unless the set is Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Solarbeam / Hidden Power Ghost. Which isn't a bad set if you think about it, but since Diglett and Flash Fire mons exist, it's rather awkward to bring it out in a match. Magby has an easier time due to Thunder Punch, but needs something else to pressure vs opposing fire matchups, as it doesn't have Fire Flash to deny fire attacks from them.


I like this if you bring it along with Rock Tomb/Icy Wind, or the Cubone is designed bulky enough to survive vs Ice Punch Abra(23 Hp/13 Def). It's awkward to fit it in, especially if you want Double Edge and SD, but I think it's one of the better moves Cubone has in its arsenal as it OHKOs anything that isn't super effective or if they've like massive physdef bulk. As for set, Rock Tomb/Icy Wind Cubone has some slight dilemma on Jolly or Adamant because of damage rolls, but otherwise it's normal. Bulky Cubone isn't a talked set since I just created it out of nowhere. So if you want a set of it, click here


It's a niche option if you want to eliminate Gastly near the endgame. But I think HP Steel is more preferable as it beats Larvitar, Anorith, and Lileep in late-game scenarios. EV Spread is just about the same, and I think this Hidden Power is recommended for Sub set, even if it fits on 3 Atk.


HP Ghost is an old tech that was used for Exeggcute, Baltoy, and Gastly back in Porygon days. But nowadays, Substitute is more preferable as it synergizes very well with para / toxic structures and it scouts out Endure Mons. Hidden Power Ghost can still be used nowadays, but Larvitar doesn't really need to stress with that, as it is more stressed trying to be a viable mon in this tier


Pineco is honestly a really good Gastly switch-in as it doesn't care what it dishes for, and it can help Pineco somewhat with rapid spin. But it's not necessary and just a niche option; you don't need to think too much about.


ADV LC server on my ASS when I'm bringing HP Ghost Wailmer :(
HP Ghost Wailmer is nice because it has a good chance to OHKO Abra, while being able to pressure Gastly; even a good chance to OHKO it if Gastly doesn't run 36 Def. The downside, besides not pressuring the opposing Water, is that it has some of the ugliest EV Spreads, and having a mindset of checking vs everything from physdef + spdef and then outspeeding 10 mon is too much when you're kinda essentially forced to run -speed or -def nature and you need attack investment on HP Ghost to OHKO them. Because of that, Wailmer tends to be slower and doesn't bring its strongest base power moves. And it's easy to see why HP Ghost Wailmer brings so many downsides, and people hating on the set. But it has some nice benefits, as 116 Atk-Self Destruct deletes any Wailmer sets, and you do not need to use Icy Wind + Water Spout to beat CM Abra, or get limited by Water Spout's drawback. This set is probably best as a lead due to its focus on survival, and being favoured vs most Special leads, even Electric ones. Wailmer can't afford enough bulk to tank both CB Doduo and Electric Attacks, but most Doduo leads are forced out because Physdef Wailmer is still one of the best leads, so Wailmer gets away since the best way to handle Wailmer if you have no idea of its set is to bring a Pokémon that survives all of its sets really. If you ever want to try it out, click here.


Machop should always have HP Ghost. It OHKO's Gastly while SpDef Gastly can't OHKO it back, and it's just perfect synergy along with Cross Chop. HP Ghost IVs doesn't really mess up any of Machop's spread, so Machop can afford to bulky as possible with some speed to avoid Snubbull interactions. Since the Machop set on Smogdex is outdated, here's my recommendation for Machop.


SD Tentacool can use HP Ghost along with Sludge Bomb + Surf. But if you're Endure Salac, then I wouldn't recommend it because Surf basically helps vs Anorith and Trapinch MU. If so, most SD Tentacool sets to be bulky enough to survive vs tbolt from Staryu and would bring something like Lonely nature to get the best out of its mixed moveset.

Hidden Power Ice
​

One of the more interesting types, as it targets Grass, Doduo, and Bagon at once. I think this is probably the next most common type behind Hidden Power Grass, due to the flexibility of the mons using it. The default IV Spread is also inferior, as there's an IV Spread that only drops one IV point(31/31/31/31/31/30), but you don't necessarily need to change into it as long as the default IV Spread fits in there currently. Most Pokémon that will use HP Ice will have Sp Atk investment to 2HKO/OHKO mons.


If you're using any types other than Hidden Power Ice, you're essentially throwing the value of Oddish. Oddish's HP Ice used along with Solarbeam and Bullet Seed, essentially solves the Diglett, Abra, Doduo, Elekid, and Bagon endgame scenario due to its monstrous power to OHKO all of them(except Bagon bc of a roll) at once. The drawback of HP Ice is something you can't solve, and that is you can't run 15 Def/17SpA/11 Speed due to Hidden Power IV drop at Defense. Every other IV spreads drops in speed, sp atk; hell, even HP Electric suffers this fate. So you're forced to add the rest of EV points into HP, which gives CB Diglett a 6.3 chance to OHKO Oddish. Dropping Sp.Atk point gives Doduo and Abra a chance to survive, and you do not want to speed tie vs 20 mons at all costs.


Hidden Power Ice Voltorb is only worthy to use if you're using the Spdef Set (116 HP/156 SpD) to survive vs Oddish's Solarbeam. As for IV Spread, you want 31/30/30/31/31/31 or 31/31/31/31/31/30 so you can add an extra point on Atk or Defense. Hasty and Timid can work, and it's up to preferences if you want to tank some physical hits or have a stronger explosion on Voltorb.


HP Ice Magnemite is a solid option to use over HP Grass to beat Grass types and Diglett. Specifically, I've seen Magnemite running more bulk to sub on Lileep without breaking, solidifying its check status even harder. Using Hidden Power Ice does leave you wide open for Sub Chinchou, but other than that, it's quite a nice adaptation Magnemite has going for it. I made my own version of bulky Magnemite for anyone that's interested in using it at some point.


I actually love using HP Ice Gastly despite its heavy drawback. Being able to 2hko Lileep is really nice, and it just feels natural to add Ice moves on Gastly lol. However, there are numerous problems with using it. Ice Offense doesn't have the best coverage in the tier, and Gastly has some conflicting 4mss where it has to decide if it wants to bring Tbolt, Psychic, Giga Drain, etc, as it can't fit all of them at once. Without Tbolt, you're not OHKOing Staryu and have to commit investment on HP Ice to OHKO Doduo, which also creates a dilemma for SpDef Gastly sets as dropping speed and bulk is highly committal. No Psychic means you're walled by opposing Gastly, and many mons that are afraid of Psychic are suddenly good vs Gastly. No Giga Drain means that you're giving Chinchou free subs. There are also better sets Gastly can use to approach against its checks, so it makes Hidden Power Ice Gastly more of a blessing in disguise for any teams facing it.


It's a solid option to call out Doduo trying to switch in. You'll need to be Modest 18 SpA to OHKO Doduo, so there's a commitment of losing bulk in the process. Thunder Punch does look better at the surface, but Hidden Power Ice has some applications if you want 1v1 vs opposing Grass types. In the end, it's an option that Cacnea does not need, but it does help him vs many matchups.


Agility sets tend to run Hidden Power Ice due to covering Doduo, Bagon, and Grass types. It's kinda a weaker version of Oddish despite their differences. I don't think Hidden Power Ice is necessary as Treecko has Thunder Punch for Doduo, and there may be other Hidden Power types that may work better. But Treecko is largely neglected due to its poor endgame coverage, as it falls flat vs CM Abra. Here's a set if you're ever curious about using it.


I heavily prefer Ice over Grass due to Bagon's endgame. Otherwise, HP grass is better if you want to cover vs Grass types as well. There is no public knowledge about it, so I can give you my set I used vs Jyusaan at the ADV LC CUP Finals.

Hidden Power Steel
​

This move is specifically for setup users as Bulk Up Snubbull and Dragon Dance Bagon for Anorith, Larvitar, and Lileep, but it's also a good offensive type that synergizes well with Normal-type moves. The IV Spreads are very generous since it has only one IV drop, and Snubbull and Bagon can afford it. Hidden Power Steel may be specific, but it's quite effective when needed, which is why I put it here over niche selection, since it's a likely option, you can see it coming.

Besides these two, the only other Pokémon that can use it is Choice Band as it threatens most variants of Anorith sets. Neither Max atk/speed nor any Spdef variations(76HP/160 SpDef for Oddish) should have issues with their EV Spreads.

Niches

Hidden Power Water
​

These days, you'll only see it used occasionally on Abra for Houndour. But back in Porygon days, there were some mons such as Koffing that used it for Larvitar and Anorith. But it fell off shortly after as Houndour, Anorith, and Larvitar became less common. Abra preferred Ice Punch as well since it had much better coverage besides vs Houndour. But it's still a niche option that isn't all bad and can be occasionally used. The drawbacks of it are its IVS drops either at SpA and Def, or SpA or Spe, and messes up EV Spreads. This is most noticeable with Abra since 9/10 Def dramatically changes rolls to your favour, and you want to maximize Special Attacks to avoid low rolls.

Hidden Power Dark
​

Hidden Power Dark is only used by Abra, but it's such an underrated move for Abra, as this has a very high chance to OHKO opposing Abra and is generally a strong coverage move vs certain teams. There may be some uncommon Mons, such as CM Natu, or Pineco for Psychics, Gastly, and Doduo, but you'll only see this on Abra at best.

Hidden Power Fire
​

I've only gotten to use this for Exeggcute in combination with Oddish, as Exeggcute can lure in Magnemite, and explode on Houndour. Otherwise, the drops on SpA and Speed IVs make Hidden Power a less desired type to be used. But it can exist and could be explored, but as the meta is right now, I doubt you'll notice this in a serious match.

Based on my builds, I've only used this with Snorunt and Gastly. I assume Snorunt was for Pineco and Magnemite, while Gastly's was for Magnemite, Cacnea, and Pineco. But it's borderline outclassed or lacks any worth for anyone to use it IMO.

Hidden Power Fighting
​

I used this for one Pokémon only, and it was on Venonat. It could pressure Lileep, Magnemite, and Snubbull, and was overall a strong coverage move along with Psychic. But I'd avoid this at any cost since you have only two 31's IVs and that alone screws up your EV Spreads.

Actually, I lied. I used this for Doduo as well as for Snubbull, Larvitar, Magnemite, and Lileep. It's not a bad option IMO since Doduo has 36 EV points left behind, so this is affordable. Nothing changes on CB Doduo spreads, though I'd not use this for Sitrus sets, especially if you're Spdef Invested.

Hidden Power Flying
​

Either you're using it since you don't have a flying-type move, or Aerial Ace BP isn't enough to OHKO that mon. Regardless, it's an option that can exist, but it's very flawed due to its lackluster coverage and having a terrible IV Spread where you're losing 3 IVs at best. The only time you're going to use it may be Taillow, or Lead Cubone to snipe Grass leads, but those have awful drawbacks by ruining the EV spreads. For example, Taillow would love to have one point on Spdef to survive vs Exegg Psychic, but HP Flying ruins it. Cubone EV Spreads gets messed up beyond that, it's not needed to discuss with. Point blank, Hidden Power Flying may have some uses, but overall, avoid this if possible.


This post is quite long, so I'll continue the Toxic + Sub topic and combine it along with my post-meta thoughts. It won't be as long as this one, because I want to quickly post my teams from LPL 13/14, and ADVPL.

 

[naere]

June 2025 Viability Rankings Update
Thanks to BlackKnight_Gawain, Raichy, and reggg, as well as the ADV LC Council, for helping create the VR!

June 2025 Viability Rankings

S

Diglett

Snubbull

Wailmer

A+

Abra

Gastly

Lileep

Trapinch

A

Doduo

Elekid

Voltorb

A-

Anorith

Exeggcute

Staryu

B+

Cacnea

Chinchou

Houndour

Oddish

Ponyta

B

Bagon

Cubone

Horsea

Koffing

Magnemite

Pineco

B-

Duskull

Spoink

C

Baltoy

Larvitar

Machop

Magby

Onix

Snorunt

Swablu

Venonat

Major Shifts (Massive thanks to Shing for the write-up in the next two sections!)

Snubbull: A+ → S
Snubbull fulfills an excellent role as a blanket check against much of the tier while having the capability to act as a wallbreaker. Snubbull's bulk, along with its selection of utility moves, makes it one of the best leads in the tier, with Bulk Up making it a devastating sweeper in the late game in part thanks to its high bulk making it difficult to OHKO. Because of these traits, its usage and impact has only been rising, which is why it's been moved to the S rank.

Trapinch: A → A+
Trapinch is a necessity on many teams due to its unique ability to consistently countertrap every Diglett set, and the team styles built around it have been becoming increasingly popular and performing well, cementing Trapinch's niche and proving it deserves a spot in the A+ rank.

Pineco: A- → B
Pineco has had a huge decrease in usage as its lacklustre offensive capabilities, poor speed, and inability to slot all the moves it wants, have proven it rather easy to play around. Spikes team styles have been on a decline as more teams have been prepared for them, and more spikes teams teams demand the spiker do more than merely laying spikes. Gastly and Lileep's increasing usage have made its explosion less reliable, and an increase in leads like Anorith and Spoink makes spike leads less appealing, hurting Pineco's viability as the meta is developing.

Lileep: B → A+
Lileep has been skyrocketing in popularity recently as a result of its valuable defensive typing, bulk, and consistent recovery, which make it difficult to break down for any team, threatening to win on the spot in the face of teams unprepared for it. It uses Toxic in tandem with Recover to sit in the face of much of the tier, and it has other options that can be used to respond against its checks. While it doesn't have much damage output, its ability to survive for so long and slow down the pace of the game more than makes up for its weaknesses, earning it the meteoric rise from B to A+.

Exeggcute: B → A-
Sun has had a resurgence since Porygon was banned, and Exeggcute is at the forefront of the team style, being not only a strong endgame cleaner but effective into a variety of team styles with its defensive capabilities and as a breaker. While Exeggcute has other defensive sets, the Sunny Day set is what gets Exeggcute a raise to A-.


Shifts from Unranked

Oddish: Unranked → B+
Oddish has found a niche on sun as a different Chlorophyll abuser with a higher Special Attack stat than Exeggcute, allowing it to claim crucial OHKOs which Exeggcute has to explode to get. This makes it an extremely deadly cleaner once the way has been carved for it and the sun is shining, allowing it to rise all the way to B+.

Spoink: Unranked → B-
Spoink's amazing bulk + strong array of utility moves make it a strong anti-meta lead which can deny early momentum with the combination of Icy Wind, Thief, and Taunt. The Itemless set has proven to be effective against a very wide array of leads, like the Spike-setters, Wailmer, Snubbull, Lileep, Gastly, and Electric-types.

Baltoy: Unranked → C
Baltoy is effective due to its unique typing, speed, and coverage. It distinguishes itself from other Ground-types with its secondary Psychic-type and ability to avoid being trapped, being able to consistently check Pokémon like the electrics and Gastly, and its respectable speed tier allowing it to revenge KO many Pokémon, most importantly Wailmer, and effectively employ the use of explosion.

Machop: Unranked → C
Machop has recently had some usage as an anti-meta mon, as it gains opportunities to throw off its powerful Fighting STAB against prominent meta threats Snubbull and Lileep. Unlike the other Fighting-types, Machop is also noticeably bulky, allowing it to survive crucial hits such as Wailmer's full-strength Water Spout. It has many tools in its arsenal, such as Encore, Thief, Bulk Up, and the unique ability Guts to power up by pivoting into Toxic. These unique traits may bode well for Machop as the tier develops, and it can easily rise from the C rank.

Onix: Unranked → C
Courtesy of Reggg, Onix is making a comeback as a fast explosion user, often targeting Wailmer, with some valuable defensive traits, such as being able to check physical attackers as Snubbull, Anorith, Doduo, and unboosted Diglett.

Snorunt: Unranked → C
Snorunt differentiates itself from the other Spike-setters as Icy Wind often guarantees a spike or slows down your opponent, allowing wall-breakers to punish the slowed-down Pokémon. Its typing and bulk also avoid suffering some of the same issues the other Spike-setters have, faring much better into Doduo. However it does suffer major weaknesses, as its power output is extremely lacking, and it therefore invites many Pokémon into the field, which might cause it to fade out of usage soon enough.

Swablu: Unranked → C
Swablu has recently been showcased in team tournaments with success, created by Reggg. The set it runs is very similar to the set Porygon ran before it was banned, even running the same move-set. Using its bulk to survive many hits, it abuses the combination of fast Thief and Substitute to very effectively leech off of opposing Sitrus Berries. While it lacks Porygon's raw power and has a worse defensive typing, it can be a very uniquely threatening end-game cleaner.

Venonat: Unranked → C
Venonat is the tier's most prominent paralysis spreader since the Thunder Wave Ban, as Compound Eyes makes Stun Spore's accuracy very consistent. It uses Thief and its acceptable bulk to use the combination of Substitute, Thief, and paralysis to get free turns from full paralysis turns and hide behind a substitute while sustaining itself with Thief and using its last move slot to do damage. It can't dish much damage back to the opponent and suffers from a lack of move-slots, but it has such a unique role that it can work effectively.


Minor Shifts

Anorith: A → A-

Voltorb: A- → A

Chinchou: A- → B+

Bagon: B+ → B

Duskull: B → B-

Horsea: B- → B

Magby: B- → C


Sample Teams Update
The sample teams have been updated! Thanks to evakiyama!, Onraider, and Shing for their teams.

 

[rineko]

ive been meaning to make a post like this for a while and with my lcpl team eliminated from playoffs, i figured id finally get to writing this up, especially since theres the possibility of the tier looking into sitrus and revisiting diglett after lcpl which ofc will significantly shift the meta. ive had extensive exposure to the meta in the past few months in particular, from playing lpl 14, primarily building for advpl, and building/playing lcpl, all in the span of ~3-4 months (i forgot to sign up for adv lc open oops). basically, theres been a lot of adv to play and its been a ton of fun, so ill be trying to capture the process that went into all the teams ive helped built in the past 3-4 months alone. i want to be clear that most if not all of the teams i share here could be significantly improved in some way, and some of them were kind of memes to begin with anyways so i wouldnt recommend using them in serious play. also, this is like my first time really posting a team dump so im not rly sure how they go, i will prob yap a ton and some parts i may feel very tired when writing since theres a lot, hope its fine but lets get into it cause theres a lot, so much that i put into hide tags everything.

lpl 14

lpl 14 was running simultaneously with advpl which meant lot of the established adv lc players, many of whom played the previous lpl, were prioritising advpl. should note that i did not play adv in week 5 as i slotted dpp that week. shoutouts to the munnas; plague, fern, edgy, envy, mok3s, and everyone else there for ideas, tests, and all that, was still a fun season and even if things mostly didnt go our way.


week 1 vs uppa and the most surprising thing looking back at it now was that i didnt even load wailmer lmao. instead, we doubled on water resists by loading staryu lead and chinchou in the back. i remember liking staryu lead vs her scout and then wanted chinchou to handle wailmer and electrics in one. i was very worried about sun with running two waters and a trapper, while also wanting endgame cleaners so i added endure salac houndour and specially defensive agility doduo to try cover those roles. max spd doduo lives oddish hp ice most of the time and you run agility so you dont rly need spe investment. snubbull of course is to provide a backbone against most physical threats, you will see this a lot on my teams but bulk up thief snubbull is def my most spammed set, the two moves just synergise so well on snubbull and it can fit onto just about any team. hp steel is there over shadow ball since i wanted to hit lileep and figured houndour can cover gastly anyways. being perfectly honest this team prob needs pinch since im running both chinchou and houndour but um, no, i ran dig because i wanted more immediate speed control. i would def put pinch on this now but before that i wouldve considered endure salac hound isnt a consistent way to patch up a dig weakness lol so id recommend using pinch instead of dig here.


week 2 vs eric and after joking about bringing poliwag, i was interested in using lileep since it was rising in popularity during this time. after that i just went with the basics, cb doduo lead is rly threatening i built the rest of the team based on that. most adv lc teams these days have some kind of wailmer (usually spd to handle opposing wailmer/waters), snubbull/lileep, and trapper on them so thats what i did since i was creatively bankrupt at this time. i wanted another 20spe mon so i threw in voltorb since i wanted its extra bulk and boom, while abra rounded out the team as smth that can wallbreak in the earlygame and even steal sitrus, to later clean in the endgame, esp with dig trapping the 20spe mons. we made the dig endure salac because we felt cb dig and elekid were annoying for this team which ended up coming into play. will say i was very tempted to run sky attack doduo but ran body slam instead like a bum.


week 3 vs joaf and i remember we were interested in bringing double electric. with me being busy that week and as if i wasnt creatively bankrupt already at that point, we just took one of the teams my teammates showed me a while back and after minor adjustments we rolled with it. wont elaborate on it much but since i didnt rly build this but ye, subtoxic voltorb lead is annoying and the pinch set is rly cool with endure ensuring it gets back to full.


week 4 vs ant and i wasnt sure whether to use spoink or magby but i ultimately settled on salac gastly, because it seemed interesting and i liked how lead gastly worked in dpp. tbolt and psychic were complementary coverage though its funny cause i feel like most of the time ur just gonna click boom anyways but that can often be worthwhile whether its denying spikes or booming on a mon like houndour. the rest of the team is pretty similar to week 2 with wailmer, snubbull, voltorb, abra, though i felt pinch fit better on this team compared to dig here, esp when considering i was running barrier abra and wanted 20spe mons gone. this team was def susceptible to opposing electrics tho and i prob shouldve considered lileep over snubbull here.


week 5 was the week i went to dpp (and end up fighting naere after playing her in advpl the week before lmao), instead we had plague in adv this week since they didnt feel like playing dpp and didnt mind playing adv. and as it turns out, the opponents put shing in adv, who switched with onraider (he was doing pretty well in this tour so wouldve been cool to play him). so we have shing playing his advpl manager lol, and for us, we were initially looking at bringing spikes, but they felt more confident in bringing horsea and smth that invites in wailmer, which my first thought was a subtoxic pony lead since i used a similar team in the last lpl. we ended up with three different versions of the team, one with cacnea and cb dig, one with pony lead and pinch, and one with elekid over pony lead. we chose the elekid version since we felt most confident in double electrics into the overall scout, esp with the 76spd evs in voltorb + light screen to help set up horsea. tbh in hindsight though, pony may have been better since the whole idea was to invite and chip/remove wailmer for horsea (an idea i used the previous lpl fwiw), so having more mons than just ur own wailmer to invite opposing wail wouldve been nice. but in any case, these two would go on to win advpl and a happily ever after.


week 6 vs shreyas and i felt this was the time to bring spoink. i saw naere use a spoink team with oddish and that was what interested me into trying to build with it. spoink is rly annoying for a lot of leads to deal with due to its movepool and bulk, notably it can decommission wailmer and lileep pretty well with thief and its great bulk, while spikes lead are shut down by taunt. icy wind is just annoying for teams to contend with esp as it often deals enough damage to break subs. abra felt natural tbh and i felt rly nicely about double psychics here, esp with spoink, with the abra being reflect instead of barrier here because i wanted it to also help oddish set up incase abra will go down. spoink struggles vs physical leads so physdef wailmer and snubbull felt natural here, while cb dig with 160 spd evs is nice to reliably trap the 20spe electrics, though its main purpose is to remove the fire types for oddish. ice punch on abra is mainly to threaten lileep. again i took the idea from naere and tried to build my own spin on it since i rly liked that squad and i think it works pretty nicely.


week 7 vs loneling and my team was already out by this point so i did what i sought out to do from the start and load the spider. i talked about what spinarak does in a previous post but it uses agility, swarm, and a liechi berry to be an endgame sweeper. i do want to add on to that and say while i initially thought it was mostly outclassed by bagon and larvitar as physical late game cleaners, i think spinarak has enough traits to separate itself to consider its place on specific teams. thats mainly is due to its typing, it isnt owned by random hp grass or eq like how larvitar is and it more directly threatens lileep compared to bagon with bug stab. bagon would need to run the dd+liechi set to outdamage spinarak, which it probably should anyways tbh with dedge+hpsteel/brickbreak. but yea spinarak can set up on elekid, chinchou, most gastly sets, oddish, though spinarak does need more mons removed compared to the other two, which is ultimately why i think bagon and larvitar are prob more consistent in this niche but ye. the team was designed around removing threats to spinarak including having cb dig for pony, mag, snub, and pinch, endure on staryu to deal with cb dig as well as beat pony, snub and torb to deal with doduo, lots of diff ways to chip snub and wail, though we esp want snub gone. ill be honest i forgot what screech on torb was for, i think it was to trap snubbull with dig since boom doesnt ohko at -1.

advpl 5

taking place simultaneously with lpl was advpl. ill be honest i didnt expect to get drafted since the player pool for lc was pretty good, so i just wanna say thx to endill for having me part of the elites, it was rly fun to be part of, everyone was awesome, chat was fun, and we couldve def won the entire thing had things gone our way. shoutouts to raichy for playing so well throughout the tour, like actually so fun watching the games live. as a note, raichy played every week in advpl except week 4, where i slotted in, but i helped build every week.


week 1 vs hacker and we didnt rly know what to expect since he didnt have many games to scout off of. we just wanted to bring something straightforward that can also answer sun, so we went with cb doduo lead, salac houndour, and standards. doduo just forces immediate pressure on anything slower not named snubbull or lileep, and so adding snubbull was pretty straightforward as it handles most things that doduo fears. snubbull has hp steel because lileep felt pretty annoying to this team, and i gave it extra speed to creep other snubbull in the mirror which felt necessary on this team. houndour traps abra and gastly rly nicely and endure means it can not only reverse the dig trap but also beat anything faster than it. i think changing the dig set to cb or liechi would benefit a lot more here, otherwise the team kinda can get easily outplayed by physical walls.


week 2 vs alder and raichy wanted to use barrier abra to punish the pinch usage so we went with that in mind. im pretty sure i just took one of my older teams since i thought wailmer lead looked rly good into the scout, its why some of the moves and sets are kinda nonsense like body slam on wailmer lmao? if i wanted to run sitrus doduo, id def at least use spd doduo to survive oddish hp ice (and agility would fit well imo), and prob run salac or liechi on dig here. the core is solid overall but the movesets are rly outdated rofl.


week 3 vs colin and we immediately noted that shing was on his team, so our first thought was bringing houndour again since shing uses a lot of gastly, but then we pivoted to a salac chou lead. gastly set is kinda strange its literally sludge bomb cause we felt the team was cacnea weak, and we have two waters to help vs wailmer, but honestly, it and snubbull are like the only things holding down vs oddish. petaya elekid is a cool endgame mon esp with pinch trapping dig and electrics. that said this team is rly weak to sun with snubbull rly being the only mon that can handle sun.


week 4 and this was me vs naere. i thought about bringing focus punch in a tour for a while, particularly on snubbull as well as the fighters, and figured this was the week for it. snubbull is really good at forcing lot of physical mons like diglett and doduo out, and on many teams, the best switchins to snubbull are usually opposing snubbull or lileep, both of which you just ohko, although i would need max atk adamant to get the ko on lileep meaning id give up some bulk but the value was more than worth it to me. eventually i made snubbull the lead and i ran sub just to safely land the focus punch, though in hindsight id say just make the hard read and keep ur moveslot on smth important like thief. the rest of the team was built around that in mind, with lileep providing more defensive security that snubbull usually provides. i think doduo is kinda out of place on this team cause even tho its immediately threatening, its kinda helpless vs faster mons. the team can be improved upon for sure but im glad i got to make focus punch work, even if i choked the endgame after.


week 5 vs reggg who actually helped me in lpl 13 so i figured that theyd also take into consideration what teams i used. we looked at what reggg and gawain used and decided on running snubbull lead (no focus punch tho) and pony. with pony, elekid, and abra, pinch was a must though we opted for protect this time around. pretty standard stuff otherwise though i will mention we thought about bringing lileep and dig initially over pony and pinch.


week 6 vs quarante8 and we saw eva and uppa on their team but we just wanted smth consistent tbh. so we settled on wailmer lead with an endure salac houndour for sun, abra, and gastly, and ice punch on abra to pressure lileep since this team otherwise struggles against that. honestly looking back on it, we prob shouldve done endure salac dig since the main idea of endure salac hound on this team was for the dig mu which is better placed on dig, and also prob make the lileep toxic as well to pressure opposing lileep.


week 7 vs quinn and again we went with the snubbull lead yet again, this time with hp steel for lileep and anorith. i finally found out about 76 spd evs on voltorb letting it live oddish solarbeam so we brought that on, tho the hp ground is kinda just to pressure elekid should pinch go down. i in particular rly like hound just cause of how it deals with gastbra and sun in one slot. other than that the team is pretty standard, we thought about having hydro on wailmer here but decided against it.


in semis we played naere again, and we settled on building around agility petaya ponyta after taking inspiration from a few shing teams. from there our gameplan was simple, we need doduo, trappers, wailmer, and fires gone, while having lileep and snubbull chipped. diglett is an obvious add to remove fires and with cb makes it more consistent at removing bulkier mons too. wailmer invites in wailmer early and we dont mind trading with boom though gastly can also help deal with wailmer too, lileep helps vs doduo wailmer and voltorb. the anorith spread is another shing tech, used to live cb dig eq at full and the bulk is just rly nice for other things like doduo. anorith also threatens lot of the tier and can set up sd to be even scarier, often forcing smth to drop. i rly like how this team plays it feels rly nice to use.


in finals we were up against the final boss of adv lc i suppose, shing. first off, raichy was interested in using drowzee lol, fr we had lot of different ideas like using abra+eggy but ultimately we went with lead encore abra + petaya elekid. pinch wail and snub were pretty much auto included and gastly filled out the last slot. the team felt cacnea weak so we opted to run sludge bomb gastly again, and psychic helps vs oddish. its pretty straightforward otherwise, abra threatens a lot earlygame and often forces a dig or electric response, pinch traps that, and we open the opponent up more and more towards an elekid win. i rly like how this team plays, the gastly spread can prob have thief over sludgebomb but other than that it feels rly solid.

lcpl 14

few months later we have lcpl, and i was drafted by the torbs. though our team had a tough season, i still found it rly fun so shoutouts dvs for picking me up, and feen fern hybone rahul teamo and everyone else there whether they helped test or give suggestions, was rly lot of fun and at the very least we can say our adv slot did pretty well going 5-2. feen would play the first two weeks while fern played the final week meaning i played weeks 3-6. as an aside, i think its funny to look at my teambuilding now compared to where it was a few months ago, it def feels a lot more different to where im trying to utilise a lot more unique team structures, though theres still some meta mons i need to use...


week 1 and its vs shing. i had just helped build vs shing in advpl finals and here i am in the first week of lcpl helping feen build vs shing. we felt subtoxic pony would be nice to lead off since it often invites dig early on which we can countertrap so abra and voltorb benefit massively from it. team as a whole is pretty standard otherwise with wail and snub doing wail and snub things but we have endure on abra just to survive random hits from special threats and free up our sitrus to thief opposing ones, which can get out of hand after a cm boost. cb doduo is def a threat to this team and tho we have three mons that outspeed and threaten it, snub is the only real switch to it which is pretty exploitable.


week 2 vs gawain and we already have battle in bengal here. i guess reggg gawain ended up on the same team again so we looked at both their scouts but ultimately settled on a cacnea team. the doduo set here is max spd to survive oddish and stray neutral hits like abra psychic, and use that as setup to clean with agility, tho i trolled by accidentally putting bodyslam instead of doubleedge rofl but thankfully it didnt matter. priority is rly nice for elekid to thwart any endure dig plans and snub has endure with the idea of ensuring u recover to full since many players try to chip it in range for ko, with thief just letting u steal sitrus to keep being healthy. i think the funniest part of this team is that it ended up being nearly identical to the antgeezy team, which wasnt intentional at all lol.


week 3 vs mielke and i kinda preemtively wanted to use a larvitar team with encore support after getting the idea from shing, tho i was thinking of bringing machop here seeing as naere and quinn were on this team. initial idea was bulky snorunt lead with endure to really toxic stall mons (notably wailmer) but honestly snorunt ended up being too passive so we just used cacnea but in the back since it also learns encore and so it made more sense to keep in back and have a threatening lead like snubbull in the front. i was rly thinking of slotting protect on it just to scout gastly and doduo, and wish i did since that decision would later bite me. but anyways, the main idea behind the team was to encore a mon with abra or cacnea so theyre locked into a move larvitar can set up on, but after i chip lileep and wailmer and get rid of snubbull which is why i had cb dig here. but the team is kinda flawed since i dont really have enough mons that invite snubbull in here to begin with. smth like a cb doduo wouldve def helped in this regard since i just click double edge twice and trap with dig. def could be adjusted in a lot of ways for sure.


week 4 vs alder and i was rly interested in using lead anorith since its so threatening. once again we went with the bulky anorith spread that has to drop a little bit of speed to run hp bug but the bulk more than makes up for it. i felt two waters was rly necessary since anorith struggles vs waters so we added chinchou and physdef wailmer. chinchou also covers the electrics which is rly nice and since id use it to respond to opposing wailmer, my wailmer can be tasked with better handling physical mons like anorith and doduo. houndour covers any lategame sun mons as well as removes gastly and abra, with protect there for any boom from eggy or gastly. pinch was just mandatory as a result to remove dig since the team rly needs it, with enough speed to jump on lileep, then i slapped snub cause its literally a dpp munchlax with thief lol. at a glance this team looks extremely unconventional, mainly due to the fastest mons only being 17 speed. i was inclined to add endure salac dig over pinch as a result but like, somehow this team works still, tho maybe knock anorith might be more useful and less susceptible to cubone rofl.


week 5 vs eva and ill be honest i was rly busy this week and barely got time to prep. i looked at the scout and was feeling pony lead. the mon choices were all pretty standard i just slapped them on together. pinch carried hp bug to thwart any greedy eggy or to come in after sun has run out and ko and snubbull initially had endure since i felt itd take a lot of stray hits to be put in ko range of things (like wailmer water spout for example) though i last minute swapped to bulk up i believe cause busted set lol. gastly works rly nicely since the teammates can often bait a boom from mons like torb, eggy, wail, and gastly pivots in on it. it also is like a wailmer resist if they run water spout which was rly showcased in the actual game since a chipped wailmer cant rly damage gastly. the team is pretty susceptible to abra tho and ur most consistent way of dealing with that is to prevent it from setting up a cm and trap it with pinch.


week 6 vs poseidon and this was finally the time i brought machop. ive been wanting to use it in a tour game because i genuinely think this mon is very good, and unlike in dpp, its very honest here. most teams run snubbull or lileep as their physical check, both of which machop absolutely ohkos. since these two want to run away from machop, i decided to run focus punch because genuinely what switches into a machop focus punch? gastly and abra dont wanna due to hp ghost (abra is ohko with minimal chip btw), and most wailmer these days arent physdef so they drop, and btw, machop can survive full hp water spout with max spd and then proceed to thief its sitrus. the only meta mons i can think of that switch in are eggy and koffing, and koffing has been rly rare to see so its rly just eggy. and while i initially had houndour here as it also eliminates abra, i was interested in using mirror coat to check sun sweepers and special threats in general, and it just so happens that lileep learns mirror coat. this move rly lets lileep beat eggy, oddish, elekid, and any water type that tries to ice beam it since gen 3 giga drain is weak lol, i think a few other players have independently been using mirror coat on lileep for the same purpose which is really cool to see. after that i just built the team as standard, snubbull checks doduo, dig can eliminate abra and annoying fast mons to help abra clean up, wail is wail, the standards. i initially had abra as the lead but i later switched to machop since machop is bulky enough to live hits from most leads. the one thing i will say is that i think gastly is a rly good teammate for machop and i had it in my initial squad, it handles koffing pretty well among a ton of other uses. even tho i built this team when we were pretty much out, this is prob one of my favorite teams ive built within the past 4 months, though i will say that with mirror coat over toxic on lileep, the team needs machop alive to break thru lileep lmao, if u saw the replay u wouldve seen two lileep cosplaying as modern gen foongus.


week 7 was fernanch vs jyuusan, he wanted to slot in adv so we let him play so ill try my best to capture his planning since this team was all his idea tbh, which is why i leave the last slot unmarked just cause it wasnt revealed in the game, but idt its that hard to figure out lol. anyways, we were already well out by this point so we kinda just wanted to build smth for fun but still trying to win. we started off with snubbull and gastly since we felt rly good about bringing that into the scout, then from there we started to burn the kitchen. we tried the snorunt idea again with roar mons, but snorunt is a blind fraud so fern said lets forgo spikes and use lotad to hard counter wailmer, esp after seeing celdanami use lotad in advltl. fern wanted to use roar wailmer after seeing other players use it, its good at stopping subtoxic shenanigans while ofc possibly revealing more of the opposing team. we kept snub and gastly but with wail being the roar user we felt snub could use bulk up with 3 attacks while gastly can be a response to oddish with psychic. lotad with icy wind and thief means it can actually provide some value after forcing wailmer out its honestly pretty cool, endure salac dig just provides more insurance into other mons like the electrics.

yea so that was a lot of teams to go through so if u read through it then hope you enjoyed reading, ik it was extremely rambly at times but again this was my first time doing one. i suppose i could briefly post my opinions on the general meta here, i know people are waiting for lcpl to finish up before doing anything, and shing has been waiting off writing his post for weeks now, but ye. the short of it is that id wanna see another diglett test since i think that mon is too centralising, dig makes teambuilding and gameplay too linear i feel and it just isnt healthy imo. ive never liked arena trap in lc in general for the above reasons but its especially damning in adv. id also want to try a meta without sitrus since i think it overtunes a lot of degen strats rn, namely the subtoxic abuse, but it also centralises the meta on thiefspam and endure mindgames. sure adv sitrus is like little else in any other meta and there is skill in playing around sitrus like avoiding putting opp in sitrus range for example, but its hard to describe how sitrus affects the game without playing it yourself. for me, sitrus kinda encourages this reactionary gameplay that i feel reduces player interaction, like why is it in lot of situations the most optimal play to sub three times then thief for example, so a meta without it is absolutely worth trying. what i will say is that if we ban sitrus i think we no question have to ban dig, a mon already questionable with sitrus. lot of the most consistent counterplay to dig hinge on sitrus like using endure, trapinch will even run endure just to survive cb dig eq after tiny chip and activate sitrus for example. though in a non sitrus meta we can def look to unban pory no doubt.


now this is more a personal aside but i happen to hit 1000 posts on the site lmao, didnt think id have only hit 1000 now instead of few years back but here we are. normally i see people do rly big shoutout posts and what not but im not going to rly, mainly because ive been on this site on and off for a long time now, interacting with tons of great people over the years, from shitposting in ps rooms to fire emblem draft stuff in discord to playing in all these team tours, id feel rly bad if i forget people in them which i inevitably would. what i will say is gen 3 is my favorite gen, im very biased to it ofc since i grew up with adv but pretty much everything about gen 3 is awesome to me and ive always wanted to see gen 3 lc played actively. i remember playing adv lc all the way back when sm was current gen and wanting to play more of it, but people at the time werent that interested, so im rly glad to see that adv lc has seen a ton of popularity in the past few years to where its included in lcpl, rly grateful to everyone whos been involved in developing and playing the meta. ashley has been absolutely paramount to getting adv lc where it is today, and for me, she was also one of the people that pretty much jumped me back into the game thru lpl, her and kaboom both jumped me back into the game for multiple tours tbh, wouldnt be here without them. thanks again to all the team managers that let me part of the their teams over the past year or so, regardless of result its always been fun being in them and hope to be in more.

 

[reggg]

id like to echo rinkeo's point of pushing to ban both diglett and/or sitrus berry, and put into forums what I've been saying on discord for a long time.

With current meta Diglett is so broken it is not funny, completing limiting gameplay and teambuilding, uncompetitive and unfun. I was the hardest advocate for getting the previous Diglett suspect and nothing has changed except people finally starting to realize what a stupid mon in the tier it is. Without proper speed control or priority, Diglett counterplay is limited to either use Trapinch, risk a speed tie with your own Diglett or 20 speed Diglett, or click X; there are not enough proper ways to punish using Diglett and it creates awful dynamics in the playing and building of the tier. If you don't remove Diglett it just bides its time to commit war crimes in the game and it should be banned.

Sitrus is another point I've come around on; previously I was adamantly against a sitrus ban because I believed removing the problematic elements of Thunder Wave would be sufficient in facilitating a healthy tier and that the gameplay dynamics that sitrus creates promoted a healthy, unique, and competitive format. With enough time however, I see that I am wrong. Sitrus is literally responsible for almost every degenerate thing that people complain about in the tier.
Thunder Wave para spam? Sitrus fully heals you and gives you so many opportunities to take advantage of it.
Toxic spam? Click Toxic Sub Protect 8 times in a row, excellent.
The prevelence of Thief and just stealing berries in so ingrained in the tier and concides with both status spams.

The Coup de grâce, Porygon. As the person who (mostly) optimized what broke Porygon, Agility Thief Double-Edge Substitute/Hidden Power, this mon was so broken it was not fair and I pushed hard for its ban and I dont think many people really disagreed with me on it especially after seeing why the set is problematic or playing against it. The issue is, Porygon pretty much held the tier together but its offensive set was so strong it had to go. The issue here? Sitrus is 100% of what makes this set so uncompetitive and broken. With Sitrus Berry, Pory could Agility in front of anything and live, Thief their Sitrus Berry and be at full health facing down a chipped opponent who is probably in Double-Edge range. Sitrus Berry is too strong of an enabler on Porygon, and so many other things in the tier.

TLDR: Regenerating 100% hp is not a healthy mechanic in the state of this tier, ban Sitrus Berry, Ban Diglett (Free Porygon). Sidenote but any discussion about banning Substitute is laughable and should not be pursued when theres nothing uncompetitive or broken about it while the full revive is sitting right there.

 

[Shing]

This post is quite long, so I'll continue the Toxic + Sub topic and combine it along with my post-meta thoughts. It won't be as long as this one, because I want to quickly post my teams from LPL 13/14, and ADVPL.

Sorry for anyone who's been waiting for this. A lot of IRL things happened, such as my laptop charger broke, my grandmother recently passed away, and I'm planning for my first university, which happened one after another. With that said, let's continue with this topic.
Disclaimer: This post will not be too influenced by topics and stuff that happened after this reply, as I want to keep the intent of this post being personal rambling thoughts.

A lot of things have happened since this post, so I'll start with what I was thinking of and then add my current thoughts to this.
Substitute + Toxic has been explored throughout the tournaments due to its simple gameplan with a skewed counterplay. In theory, everyone can do this due to distribution. But the best ones tend to have unique traits such as Thief, coverage that complements Toxic vs its switch-ins, and being fast. You don't necessarily need all of them at once, but those who have been used the most share these traits. The best users tend to rely on Speed + Thief combo, and some degree of coverage. Thief + Coverage is less desired because you're not getting that much mileage out of Thief, and there's just more counterplay to it, such as Encore, Gastly, Multi-Hits, etc. Note, less desired doesn't mean unviable :)

The most noticeable user is Voltorb, which can be used as physdef lead to punish Snubbull Leads and many slow-paced leads that lack immediate power, but work in late-game as well. Then you have Ponyta due to its coverage discouraging toxic-immune switch-ins. But really, most fast ones that are in the 18-20 range can use this strategy with success. Those Mons also tend to run more bulk to avoid OHKO, although some have to be wary since they lose power and are prone to getting revenge killed by Diglett and losing OHKO potential(Elekid and Abra, for example).

I've had Toxic in my mind back in the early days, as it was a perfect response to Recycle Porygon(this set held the community and the metagame back way, esp how ass it was lmao), and therefore I had the Sub + Toxic in my mind at some point. It reminds me of a friendly match vs Reggg where I switched in Porygon vs SubTox Diglett, and lost... Never again, fu Reggg for putting me in that scenario. I think it was and still is an overtuned since it abuses the Adv mechanics and Sitrus berry too well. But I've changed my opinion on its counterplay throughout in LCPL as there are a lot more viable ways against it, and I've taken advantage of the weakness of combos I mentioned above. The most obvious ones are when I've brought Roar Wailmer and Snubbull to phase them out, especially with Encore Cacnea, which is a strong response to this strategy showcased in these two games.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3lc-856211
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3lc-854628
There's also structuring your teams to discourage the strategy from working, such as bringing Abra, bulky Anorith, and having strong typing cores along with Gastly(that high usage isn't there for nothing lmfao) and Magnemite. There are also less common niche tricks, such as Machop, a more attack-invested Snubbull that can ruin these strategies. I've slowly been less interested in it myself, as I find the Speed + Thief combo having severe weaknesses in terms of coverage as someone who TRIES to cover everything at once. Sub + Toxic is still strong, but maybe not desired in the same mons hm? Maybe more effort, but that all depends on meta developing in the end.


But yeah, Toxic + Substitute is a part of a smaller grand scheme of a topic I'm having a lot of thoughts on. And I'm gonna tackle this right now, as it's questioning Sitrus Berry's impact in this tier. The community has been developing Sitrus Berry to such a high degree length as I think we are at a point where we have showcased almost everything, and I'll admit I'm proud of everyone pushing it to the limits. But that also means it's a perfect time to talk about its status on the tier.

As for counterplay, I've liked how Knock Off has been implemented, although limited to Anorith and Abra. It has opened me a lot of weird sequences that I find satisfying to plan out in the long term. There are also running CB on certain ones to punish Thief, and using Roar + Spikes structures to mess up teams that overly rely on fully healthy + Sitrus aspect, or certain sub spam interactions.

But Sitrus Berry has been in a deep hole on how you can abuse it to the fullest extent. Sub strategies have been developed in such a lengthy way, so it's something you'll have to prepare for when building your setplay/sequences for your team. Substitute has surprisingly more combinations than you would expect, as setuppers, encore, and endure take advantage of it. At this point, I think that we have found every way to utilize Substitute to its fullest potential; practically solved at this point.
Endure is also a cheap tool to invalidate progress from the opponent and hard punishes reactive/senseful plays because you can justify it on most occasions, and with Thief, you would be favoured in most occasions if you planned the sequences out right. For me, it also screws up Spikes Structures and plays that try to avoid triggering Sitrus Berry.

If you've been reading this at this point(sorry), it's very clear that the counterplay just lacks a lot in comparison. And just looking at what Sitrus Berry is capable of, it's no wonder why I've been questioning for so long, and why more people are speaking out about its influence on this tier. My subjective opinion on it is different from most others because I enjoy how it affects the pace of the game, and I feel like I've a ton of ways to express myself from offense, defense, and teambuilding using and against Sitrus itself. I'd even argue that Sitrus gives a lot of weaker mons a justified role in the tier because the meta isn't structured in a way where you can brute force your offense compared to DPP LC, for example. It's the single reason why I believe 75% or more of the tier has a viable use in a tour game. I enjoy the weird mini-game of Thief + Sitrus, and I'd play the tier as long as I can because it feels like I can play defense and offense in a very unique way that I can't find in most tiers.
But I'm not opposed to seeing it being banned because Sitrus Berry has so many narrow-minded counterplays, and the fact that it also makes the gameplay feel very cat-and-mouse on Sitrus is not that appealing to most others. Along with Substitute and Thief, I'm very aware of how the rep on this tier is. Trust me, I've heard and seen the comments, and you can't blame people for thinking like that. I do have my dislike for Sitrus Berry, how it invalidates progress, especially like Endure, that you can't predict most of the time. And I don't mind if we played in an Oran Berry meta anyway. I enjoy DPP LC as a meta, and ADV LC with Oran will be vastly different from DPP LC in terms of offense and defense; we don't even know how it would look. What I'm not excited about with Oran ADVLC is probably what to unban, because I'm opposed to reggg to unban Porygon(testing it out is good though), T-wave, etc, and then having to potentially ban mons like Doduo, Abra, Diglett, etc. Again, I'm just rambling, and in the end, I'll try playing Oran ADVLC even if it affects the enjoyment I had from Sitrus.

Short said: I do personally enjoy Sitrus as I find it fun to play at and it promotes enough that I can express myself in the game, but I acknowledge it has a saturated gameplay and how the meta warps come down very subjectively. But I am not opposed to banning it, as Sitrus has hella ugly faults, as it creates a lot of uninteractive elements in the tier, and banning it may or may not make more Mons less viable, but may or may not make the gameplay better. But it would get rid of the ugly aspect of the tier. If we are going to decide on Sitrus, I'd prefer a suspect or get enough opinions from everyone because this is something we can't be reckless about, unlike Diglett and other suspects. Once Sitrus is gone, we may never go back to it for so long. I'd highkey love to promote a money tournament with ADV LC w Oran Berry just to see how the meta is, even if it's not enough answer on its own. Again, I don't even have a definite opinion on ban or not, but I'm just aware that this will completely change the meta in a state that will take a lot of time to make it stabilized(I'll haunt your ass Reggg if you don't try to play Oran ADVLC at some point...) and I hope people will still play the tier even after that :)

Will make another post to continue my post-meta thoughts since this post is way too long. Expect it tomorrow.

 

[rineko]

i think shing captured my personal opinions on it well since i like how some of the counterplay surrounding it has been evolving, which is part of why sitrus makes this meta play uniquely compared to anything ive played in a way that does feel enjoyable to me. i also do enjoy how it increases the potential viability for many otherwise lacking pokemon, though ofc like i and others brought up here, it facilities many aspects of the meta that i find uninteractive or unfun. people were getting away with confuse ray + sub in this meta a while back in an attempt to replicate the effect para had all because sitrus creates the conditions for these strats to work, and i think that speaks volumes on its impact.

with that said, i think there should be a non sitrus (/oran) tourney before we decide whether sitrus should truly go. theres no question that an oran meta would be completely different, probably unrecognisable, and its not something we should try to rush. who knows, removing sitrus may make for a less desirable meta than the meta with sitrus, but we wont know that until we test it out. what i will say is its probably safe (and perhaps even beneficial) to unban porygon just because it provides defensive stability in a format we can likely assume is going to be more offensive and volatile. the agility sets that got porygon banned would be much more managable if it only healed 40% of its hp instead of fully. it also would mean we wouldnt instantly ban diglett (though i think dig would still be busted and should be gone anyways but i digress). but point is we should test out the oran meta and get a solid sample size of matches before we decide whether to get rid of sitrus or not as its a massive massive meta shift, moreso than the twave ban or any singular pokemon ban.