Lower Tiers ADV LC

[reggg]

Could also time out like in lcwc :wow:

 

[Hacker]

everyone else vs Kaboom

 

[grape tylenol]

Very nice post from Kaboom about ADVPL and how each ADV LC player measures up against the rest of the pool. My ranking is very similar, although I think Kingdras are in a much worse spot with the loss of Arcanine1929 and would rank them last in the pool for sure. I also think I would rank the Scythe Lords a bit lower as Quinn is on his own and will likely have difficulty finding support given that most players have been scooped up by other teams. Since Kaboom didn't rank them, my personal opinion is that the Aquacorde Anglerfish are in an excellent position with LC veteran HSOWA and prominent ADV LC community member Kaboom working together, and I would rank them as tied with the Claydolls if not above them. Rankings aside, I would say I'm the most interested in seeing ElectricityCat play as he has remained a bit of an enigma in the ADV LC community. I'm also very interested in seeing how the combination of two active members of the ADV LC community, Cawil Maxamad and Zcarlett, and top current generation LC player but newcomer to ADV LC Hacker works out!

Oh and also: ADV LC Cup signups are now open and will be closing April 14th at 10:00PM GMT-4.

 

[summer islands]

Thunder Wave tiering action coming to a tier near you

 

[grape tylenol]

May 2024 Tiering Survey
Thanks to the ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure tournament (congratulations Raichy on your win!), as well as the ongoing LPL, ADVPL, and ADV LC Cup tournaments, the tier has seen quite a bit of play! I figure now is the perfect time to gauge the community's opinion on the metagame so that we can explore potential tiering action over the summer. If you are interested in sharing your thoughts on the ADV LC metagame, you can fill out the survey here! The survey will close May 5th at 10:00PM GMT-4 so be sure to fill it out before then if you want your voice to be heard.

 

[grape tylenol]

May 2024 Viability Rankings Update
Thanks to Cawil Maxamad, HSOWA, and Shing as well as the ADV LC Council for helping out with these!

May 7th, 2023 Viability Ranking

S
Abra
Diglett
Porygon

A+
Doduo
Wailmer

A
Elekid
Gastly
Snubbull
Staryu
Voltorb

A-
Anorith
Chinchou
Houndour
Koffing
Pineco
Trapinch

B+
Cacnea
Cubone
Larvitar
Lileep
Magnemite

B
Bagon
Duskull
Exeggcute
Horsea
Ponyta

B-
Onix
Snorunt

C
Baltoy
Carvanha

Major Shifts
Abra: A+ → S
Abra's 19 Speed in addition to it's monstrous base 105 Special Attack already made a huge threat, but its newfound set diversity has propelled it to S rank. Abra is most commonly seen running a Calm Mind sweeper set with Psychic and Thief (or Hidden Power Water,) but other movepool options like elemental punches, Barrier, Hidden Power Dark, and even screens have been used, making it difficult to predict, a deadly quality for any Pokemon.

Voltorb: B+ → A
Similarly to Staryu in the last viability ranking update, players have caught on that 20 Speed, Thunder Wave, and Explosion all in one package makes a great Pokemon! Voltorb's Speed, tied only by Diglett and fellow Electric-type Elekid, allows it to reliably spread paralysis as well as get off a last-ditch Explosion if things aren't going its way. While Voltorb does get Explosion, it doesn't get the same coverage options Elekid does, forcing it to rely on the weak Hidden Power Grass instead.

Lileep: B- → B+

Lileep functions well as an annoying defensive Pokemon thanks to its Rock / Grass typing as well as Recover, a move otherwise not seen in LC. If a team isn't prepared for it, it can be quite difficult to take out as the above user discovered, but it struggles to make progress into the opposing team due to a weak offensive movepool.

Magnemite: B- → B+
Magnemite is a surprisingly deadly Pokemon, especially behind a Substitute. Its respectable base 95 Special Attack combined with STAB Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass allows it to take out powerful foes including Wailmer and Diglett. Magnemite's Electric / Steel typing also allows it to come in on Doduo and force it out. Magnemite, of course, still suffers greatly in that it is trapped and removed by Diglett (as long as Magnemite isn't behind a Subsitute) as well as Trapinch.

Pineco: B → A-
Spikes have become very popular so it's no surprise to see Pineco, the best Spikes setter, rise significantly in viability. It's interesting to see that Pineco came out on top over Cacnea, it seems players prefer the always reliable Explosion and option to Rapid Spin over the offensive power that Cacnea has.

Teddiursa: Unranked → C
Teddiursa, similar to Snorunt and Ralts, has seen use recently as it is the pet mon of a strong player (in this case not Shing but Quinn). It's not without its merits though: Teddiursa has a great Attack stat in addition to Swords Dance and has proven itself to be an asset in tournament games. Time will tell if Teddiursa can carve itself a niche as a powerful physical attacker or if it will fall back off the viability rankings.

Minor Shifts
Snubbull: A- → A
Trapinch: A → A-
Houndour: B+ → A-
Cacnea: B → B+
Cubone: B → B+
Horsea: B+ → B
Duskull: B+ → B
Meowth: C → Unranked

May 2024 Metagame Survey Results
The metagame survey has now closed! Thank you to everyone who took the time to fill it out. Let's take a look at what you thought about the current metagame:

Looking at the survey results, we can see that most players enjoy the metagame which I am really happy to see! We can also see that Thunder Wave is a very controversial subject (more on that below) while Abra and Diglett are generally agreed upon to be balanced. Regarding the summer "for fun" tournament, an ADV LC tournament featuring Omanyte was by far the most popular choice, so we will be running that tournament sometime late this summer (think late July or August).

On Thunder Wave
Here is the announcement you have all been waiting for!

The ADV LC council has decided to run a suspect test on Thunder Wave. Players who have achieved at least one of the following will be qualified to vote in the suspect test:

• 2 wins and at least 3 ADV LC games played in ADVPL IV
• Placed top 4 of ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure
• Placed first in ADV LC Cup

We have decided not to run any additional suspect tournaments due to the abundance of recent tournaments featuring ADV LC. Due to these requirements depending on tournaments that haven't finished yet, the suspect test will not be held until the conclusion of ADVPL IV (projected to be June 2nd assuming no tiebreaks/extensions, the tournament could "finish" earlier if all the remaining players in finals are already qualified).

 

[Éric]

So I just won ADV Cup I, and since I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about, I figured I would share a pretty significant opinion I have had of this metagame since Todd and never really got convinced of the opposite.
Many of you probably already know I have been vocal I very much dislike Porygon's presence in this metagame. Specifically, I actually was torn between Porygon being at fault or Sitrus Berry, and ultimately I ended up deciding on the latter. I do think Sitrus Berry is detrimental to this tier, and (even though I know I'm in the minority here) I would love it if we did something about it.
I think everyone, both mainers and tour players, is currently on the opinion that Thunder Wave Sub spam is too much for this tier to handle, with very low bulk across the board and close to no speed control. Many games come down to fishing for a succesful Substitute as the opposing Pokémon gets fully paralyzed which, compared to most other LC generations, gives you an advantage so big most of the time it just wins the game on the spot. I do agree with it, I'm personally not the most vocal person about it but I wouldn't mind Thunder Wave going if that meant the tier becomes less luck reliant. However, while I do believe that strategy should get the boot, I also think there is another element to it, which is broken on its own and helps at creating this luck-reliant environment: Sitrus Berry.

why sitrus is broken on its own

My problem with this item is not really paralysis spam itself, but rather how it warps the metagame and how we need to play it. Sitrus gives every single Pokémon two lives. This creates situations where 2HKOing things is impossible, or only available with very specific maneuvers like hitting a neutral Hidden Power into a powerful STAB move. That's not really a terrible thing if it's present only in a handful of Pokémon, but I think it becomes quite toxic quickly when you can't 2HKO anything unless you predict every single turn right. Yes, I want my Pokémon games to be skillful, but I also think we should reward safe clicks as long as they're not way too safe. 2HKOing Pokémon is the bread and butter of breaking in competitive, and not being able to do it consistently I think is not something we should want. (i hate it when my voltorb gets walled by a wailmer)
This fact becomes especially infuriating when we add bulk and recovery moves to the mix. It's already bad that Diglett cannot 2HKO Abra at all with a neutral STAB Earthquake, but Pokémon with good bulk and recovery get insane. There's a reason Porygon is the single best Pokémon in the tier. It is almost literally unkillable, helped by the fact that if you can't outright Porygon, even if it eats its Sitrus once, it is able to get it back again, either by using Recycle or Thief (which many other Pokémon like Snubbull or Abra use as effectively), making it even more resiliant. The most reliable strategy commonly used to take it out isn't to OHKO or 2HKO it, because you can't, but rather paralyze it and set up on it, since it does become an immortal sitting duck. I think that's messed up. Other bulky Pokémon like Snubbull or Wailmer also benefit a lot of this, since its incredible stats and abilities allow them to take any one hit and hit back like nothing, and even Thief opposing Sitrus back for more turns of damage.
Another factor I think doesn't help its case is Spike's case. This move is supposed to be a good offensive tool to punish switches and improve your team's damage output. Instead, in this Sitrus infested metagame, (hot take) they just become a liability. In my experience, the only thing Spikes do for you is activate opposing Sitrus early, making it even more impossible to 2HKO anything, even with good plays. Here are two examples of this, one from just today's ADV Cup Finals and one from the most recent ADV PL. Yes, I did luck HSOWA a lot but I absolutely would have lost regardless had the Spikes not been set up.

All of this to get back to the paralysis spam point. Yes, Sitrus Berry worsenes the metagame in all of those ways in my opinion, but it also undeniably helps the Substitute Thunder Wave strategy. It's pretty simple, the more HP you gain, the more Substitutes you can create, and the more chances for a full paralysis to happen. Yes, Oran Berry would do it too, but it absolutely wouldn't do it as consistently, since it won't recover every single mon back up to full, and on some Pokémon it will only recover as high as a 33%. I think this strategy becomes significantly worse if we take Sitrus out of the picture, and even if it doesn't honestly I want it gone anyway.

 

[Colin]

I've took a break from playing games since the porygon money tournament, which I made it to top 8 or 16 iirc, and I think you diagnosed the problems mostly perfectly. However, I disagree with the solution, because I think that sitrus is our only mostly consistent defensive counterplay to just clicking strong attacks from pokes such as CB doduo and hydro staryu. I do agree that all of sub, twave, and sitrus make the tier too luck reliant and centralized on the twave sub game and so shouldn't coexist, but I disagree that Porygon would be nearly unkillable without T-wave making it a liability. T-wave is certainly the best way in general to do that right now, but during the money tournament I instead would hit it and try to keep it above Sitrus Berry activation but in range of more powerful attacks from strong attacks from the aforementioned CB doduo and Hydro Pump water types, as well as most setup sweepers and other strong attackers. I would also try to force a trade on their Porygon by just staying in with my attacker after they switched in and utilizing substitute + Thief to deny Thiefs and Recycles or just attacking so it couldn't heal to deal with other threats. I consider dealing with and correctly using Porygon, outside of T-wave, one of the most skillful and interesting parts of ADV LC building and playing, and I think banning Sitrus Berry would take much of that away. I instead think that banning Thunder Wave is the correct path to improving ADV LC, because it is both broken in being overpowered and taking control out of the players hands and into the "hope I don't full para vs an unrevealed sweeper" zone.

TLDR, I don't believe Porygon would be broken in a metagame with Sitrus Berry and without t-wave because it is still only reliable to switch in once in spite of its versatility. Thunder Wave needs banned because it interacts with Substitute and Sitrus Berry way too well. Sitrus Berry holds the tier together vs strong attackers.

 

[grape tylenol]

Thunder Wave Suspect Test
As previously announced, the Thunder Wave suspect test has begun and is now in the discussion phase, which will last about a week and be followed by the voting phase. I highly encourage you to make a post in the discussion thread if you've played the metagame and have any opinion on the matter, as a Thunder Wave ban would be sure to have a drastic (but perhaps positive?) effect on the tier.

 

[reggg]

ADVPL Team Dump

Hi everyone, ADVPL has just ended, and I wanted to share my teams and sets. I built a new team every week and tried to be innovative while staying consistent with good mons or sets, some of these failed while others shined. The season did not end as I hoped it would I and I didn't play how I would have liked every game, but I was glad to be apart of ADVPL and hope to see LC again in future iterations of it. Shout out to MOHAMEDALL and BlackKnight_Gawain who both helped me throughout the season.




Week 1 against HSOWA, a strong player, and Midas, my friend who knew my teams well from the money tournament. I wanted to catch them off guard with something I had never ever used, a Raltz + Salac Recover Porygon team. Idea with Sitrus Doduo as the lead is to bait in a ghost type early so I can know to remove it for my Porygon which cannot touch it. Toxic is for Duskull so that Pory can eventually just sub and recover to beat it down, but looking back, HP Ghost would have been the better choice to OHKO Gastly, the much more common Ghost type. Snubbull and Staryu are great glue pieces that help shore up the weaknesses of the team.




Week 2 versus Quinn, I got this cool team idea from Heysup. The idea is to set up with Agility Flail Doduo or Bulk Up Reversal Mankey, and bait in the potential Doduo or Trapinch that will want to quick attack, and then trap them with Pursuit Houndour or Porygon, respectively. This would let the other set up sweeper run free without that priority. In building, I was actually incredibly concerned about a non-choice band Doduo with Quick Attack, which would completely ruin the strategy as it could just OHKO Houndour, and so I actually made Houndour very physically bulky and able to live a non-CB Double Edge. Unfortutetly, I ran into the exact set that I was scared of, and misplayed by switching Houndour hard into Doduo's Quick Attack and ruining the interaction I had prepped for. Still a fun team but definitely a bit gimmicky.




Week 3 vs Mimikyu Stardust, this is the start of my favorite set in the entire meta and, in my opinion, the strongest as well. The team idea started with Agility Porygon with 15 attack can OHKO's even Bulky Abra with Double Edge. With Spikes suppport, it can OHKO Voltorb, Trapinch, Staryu, and Chinchou. The idea is that Porygon goes from a passive wall into a potent mid-to-endgame sweeper. With Thief, Porygon can manipulate its own Sitrus Berry and steal others, letting it break past even Wailmer or opposing Porygon from full health. Subsitute lets it dodge Thunder Wave and Explosion/Self-Destruct while it has set up, as well as stopping Thief. With the right sequence of plays, this set is straight up demonic. In game I actually run into an Onix, one of the few Pokemon this specific set hates to see. However I believe it showed off its strength, and continued to show its power throughout the season. From here on out, I did not use a standard Defensive Porygon again, it was all variants of this Agility set. Another thing I wanted to note is Physically Defensive Wailmer with Icy Wind. Wail is a mon I relied on heavily this season, I believe its strongly the second best Pokemon in the meta, behind Porygon. Icy Wind is great support and actually won me the game in a 1 on 1 scenario vs Abra.




Week 4 vs Cawil, who I have played extensively in friendly games over many months. Lum Berry Anorith is to target a Snubbull lead, as +1 Brick Break will OHKO it if it tries to Thunder Wave me. Snubbull lead really started to pop off at this point, and I wanted to prepped for it. Chinchou just has excellent synergy with Anorith, switching into the awful Staryu or Wailmer Lead match up, as well as being a servicable Thunder Wave switch in from Voltorb or Elekid, if Anorith hasn't set up yet. Hidden Power Ice on Magnemite for the Cacnea is another part of the team that I liked. This Porygon has HP Steel, good into the combination of Larvitar, Anorith, or Lileep (or Onix), all of which I thought could reasonably be brought into me because Cawil had seen me use this set in test games. It didn't come into play here, but Agilty Pory did sweep the game for me.




Week 5 vs Eric, who was undefeated up to this point. Similar Wailmer set to the one from 2 weeks prior, and the same Agility Porygon set as the previous week with HP Steel. This actually came into play in this game, letting my Pory beat an Anorith 1 on 1 and force major progress in the game. Another part I want to highlight is Screech on Diglett, a new favorite last move for me and becoming almost mandatory on any Specially Defensive Diglett spread I use. With Screech, it lets it beat almost any Anorith or Abra interaction in a neutral scenario, with the exception of a Barrier Abra or if Abra encores turn 1. After Screech, you can OHKO the both of them with Earthquake. It also paires well with Agility Porygon, because when Pory has 16 attack, it guarantees that Double Edge will OHKO a Defensive Porygon from full in the scenario where it traps my Diglett. In this game it Screeches a Trapinch which lets me Agility and Guarantee the OHKO on a Trapinch. Also another game where I win because of having Icy Wind on Wailmer vs an Abra.




Gawain played in week 6, and so for week 7 I was against TKO. This team has one of my favorite leads I used all season in Magby. The idea with this set is that it is good into both Snubbull and Spike leads. With Substitute and Focus Punch, it can remove a Diglett that wants to switch in turn on expecting to live a Fire Blast, and with Toxic and Sub it can wear down Wailmer or Chinchou that switch in. With Flame Body, it can punish Snubbulls that are running Mono Normal coverage. The Porygon this week is HP Water in expectation of dealing with Larvitar, which is another big riser we saw this season. It can also handle Anorith but loses out on a Lileep MU. Bulk Up Substitute Snubbull is a incredibly strong set that I wanted to try out in the back, and the team features a creative Wailmer spread that can take hits from Doduo or a Voltorb, at the cost of a low Special Attack stat, which ended up working against me this game.




Semi-finals vs Royal Reloaded, another variation of the lead Snubbull, using Bulk Up Thunder Wave and Thief. With this set, I was expecting a Pineco lead, and after 1 Bulk Up it lives an Explosion. After 2 Bulk Up, Return can OHKO Pineco and ensure Snubbull is still at max HP. Thief and Thunder Wave lets Snubbull just be extremely hard to take out, and it showed in this game. The Porygon this week was HP Ground, which lets it OHKO Magnemite and deal with Larvitar. Not much else to say other than these are some of the more consistent mons you can use in Wailmer Snubbull Staryu and Diglett.




Finals vs HSOWA, here I wanted to use Cubone as it could punish the Agility Porygon Strategy pretty well, as well as being good into Para Spam teams with Larvitar. And so I made my own Para Spam team, aiming at slowing down every single mon and enabling Cubone. The lead is a shift away from the lower attack, specially defensive Snubbull and towards the old max Attack Snubbull. This was to try and catch surprise OHKO's on mons such as Staryu, Chinchou, or Larvitar. The Abra is Inner Focus with Encore and Thunder Wave, which allows to beat the Agility Porygon that had become so popular and well known by know. Sadly I messed up when transporting my team to Smog Tours and I did not have this set, which was extremely unfortunate and threw me off in the game when I realized my mistake. HSOWA and Midas actually loaded the same Abra set which was funny. Agility Porygon this week was Thunder Wave and HP Water, letting me get fast and slow down opposing threats at the same time, while also being able to OHKO Larvitar. Thunder Wave also would let it beat weather abusers that wanted to try and freely set up on me, which I was wary from in my game in semis in LPL. A Horsea did show up in this game, but I did not get the interaction I wanted via playing poorly on my end.


Wrap Up

It has been a long 5 or so months for me in ADV LC, between a long run in Porygon's Bizzare Adventure Money tour loser's bracket, starting in ADVPL every week except 1, playing ADV LC for the majority of LPL, and making finals in ADV LC Classic. To be perfectly honest I'm quite burnt out from it all, my builder is an absolute Frankenstien's Monster of ideas and patched together teams, and I have played my full of games for right now especially with a dissapointing end to ADVPL. However, I truly love this meta and have dedicated more time to it that anything else in the past year, and am proud of the teams I've been able to make and the accomplishments I've had thus far. The metagame has progressed so much, and still has places to go with a (hopefull) Thunder Wave Ban, which I've already written about here. I hope you all enjoy these teams as much as I did, and I hope to see ADV LC in more tournaments in the future, continuing with ADVPL and potentially LCPL next year. Thank you for reading, I may make another post breaking down my thoughts on the current meta with a personal VR order, but for now this is it.

 

[grape tylenol]

Thunder Wave
Thunder Wave is now banned from the tier after an extremely close vote! I am looking forward to how the tier will develop following this ban as I am sure it will be a massive change. Tagging dhelmise for implementation (PR is here).

What's Coming Up for ADV LC
ADV LC has been very lucky to have been featured in both ADVPL (thank you susciety, Murm, and Lialiabeast) and LC Classic (thank you Eseque) this year. The player base and I were very grateful for these opportunities to play and continue to develop the ADV LC metagame! As for what's next, I believe the summer will be very relaxed for ADV LC after having so many tournaments earlier this year. Still, there is at least one tournament coming up and potentially a few more:

• Single elimination ADV LC tournament (August) - Originally planned to be an ADV LC + Omanyte tournament, I believe a regular tournament to explore the new metagame without Thunder Wave is a better idea.
• LPL 13 (after the conclusion of LCPL, likely September) - as always, ADV will be included in the old generation vote for LPL.
• ADV Grand Slam (October) - not confirmed yet, but I am hoping to have ADV LC included in this year's grand slam.
• LC winter team tournament (late 2024 or early 2025) - similarly to ADV Grand Slam, this isn't confirmed but Coconut has shown interest in including ADV LC in this tournament.

Council Announcement
Kaboom and MOHAMEDALL are stepping down from council. Thank you to both for the work they have put in to make this tier what it is today!

 

[Saadhak]

ban explosion and doduo

 

[grape tylenol]

ADV LC No Thunder Wave Tournament
To develop the metagame after the Thunder Wave ban, I am hosting a single elimination ADV LC tournament. You can sign up here, and signups will close on Sunday, August 4th at 10:00 PM GMT-4. To help players build teams for this tournament, new sample sets for all Pokemon on the viability ranking have been uploaded. I look forward to seeing what you'll come up with!

 

[TRowePrice667]

My Favorite ADV LC No Thunder Wave Tournament Team

Hello everyone! I have never done this before but I wanted to make a post about this since it was a bunch of fun and I actually got all the way to semifinals with this team coming almost every round (except round 2).
When I first saw the Thunder Wave ban and the new tournament coming up I really wanted to still have a way to abuse paralysis and have fun doing it since it has been a while since I have entered an ADV LC tournament and some of my best performances were usually with paralysis abusive teams like the Clamperl of old. My thoughts led me to one idea: "What if I just made a team based on Zap Cannon?" It is a funny mechanic that isn't exactly that great but if it works out its hilarious (for me at least...)
Now with that out of the way I present my team!

Pineco @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin
- Light Screen

The usual common lead Pineco set, the spikes are here to help the two sweepers pickup extra kills they usually wouldn't. Light Screen also allowed a small reprieve from the powerful special attackers that caused some issues for this team that I will touch upon later on.

Magnemite @ Salac Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Zap Cannon
- Endure
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunderbolt

One of the two Zap Cannon users available in ADV LC, Magnemite gets its chance to shine in a unique position. With a Light Screen set up from Pineco Magnemite can take on the Special Water attackers like Wailmer and Staryu and get an opportunity to click Zap Cannon for free. Also worked as a Doduo switchin once again presenting an opportunity to click Zap Cannon. Endure Salac allows Magnemite to Endure on Staryu clicking Hydro or Diglett clicking EQ and get up to 21 speed and really become a threat with secondary STAB TBolt or HP Grass for Diglett's case. Salac could also help in taking on the Thieving Porygons by forcing them to take a Salac instead of another Sitrus. One big issue I realized when using this set though was that Magnemite was too powerful and would usually KO something with Zap Cannon and not giving my sweepers a paralyzed mon to use.

Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 80 Def / 40 SpD / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bonemerang
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Double-Edge

One of the two aforementioned sweepers, Cubone, like its special counterpart Clamperl from the old para teams I used, is sometimes able to claim 2 KOs when subbing on Paralyzed pokemon then clicking Bonemerang when the opposing mon is fully paralyzed. Definitely not as busted as Clamperl was so not ban worthy but still fun.

Bagon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 40 Def / 120 SpD / 196 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Brick Break

Next I knew I wanted a Dragon Dancer as the second potential sweeper in case the Sub strats wasn't working for Cubone. Enter Bagon, which if able to get a free DD off can start to threaten major damage to opposing teams. The speed is to make sure that Bagon outsped Voltorb after 1 DD since Boom would stop it. However this meant giving up Special Defense so water types could kill with Ice Beam 56% of the time. This was definitely meant to be used in front of a paralyzed foe.

Diglett @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Atk / 156 SpD / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Beat Up
- Rock Slide
- Screech

The common Diglett set with a couple of caveats: One, I sacrificed Special Defense for Attack. Going off the fact that the most common Diglett set is the Max SpDef set, I wanted to make Elekid and Magby think that they couldn't just safely click a special move in front of diglett and would instead need to be behind a sub to click Focus Punch. That's where Beat Up came into play, given you have at least four of the mons left on the field, Diglett can both break the sub and deal damage to both Diglett and Elekid rendering their Focus Punch useless. Then you can EQ for the safe kill (Outside of Elekid which has a single roll to kill with Ice Punch outright).

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Thief
- Recycle

Finally, the second Zap Cannon user of ADV LC and the mon that gave me this idea in the first place! This Porygon is meant to paralyze something with Zap Cannon without killing allowing a potential sweeper in the back to come in and use the paralyzed mon as setup fodder. Also use Ice Beam to take out Digletts that threaten Magnemite/are immune to Zap Cannon. I wanted to use the old bulky Porygon set with BoltBeam with the Bolt being Zap Cannon instead. This was not meant to sweep but stay alive to allow for more opportunities of clicking the Zap Cannon. Porygon was able to eat a hit from Banded Doduo while take on the non-sub variants of Agility Porygon and cripple them. (Also the sub variants if the Zap Cannon lands first thing)

I feel like looking back there were a definitely a couple changes that could've been made to make the team a bit better, such as keeping bulkier Bagon or having Porygon be the agility set without sub, but I still think the team executed my idea to almost perfection for what I wanted to run this tournament. I didn't want to go in and win but rather have fun with Zap Cannon at least once a round, getting to Semifinals honestly shocked me.

Is Zap Cannon good? No. Not at all, the 50% accuracy pay off is too large, a miss can just end a game right then and there. Counters like Chinchou and substitute have become very prevalent in the meta and even stuff like Trapinch are still around to ruin the fun.

In conclusion, I am glad I got to come back to play in this tournament and have really enjoyed using this team. I look forward to playing more ADV LC in the future!

 

[grape tylenol]

Porygon

Porygon is now banned from ADV LC!

Unsurprisingly, the metagame has changed since Thunder Wave was banned. Porygon has been a top tier Pokemon for all of ADV LC's history, but functioned as a tank that brought balance to the metagame... until Agility Porygon started gaining traction as a sweeper towards the end of ADVPL IV. With Thunder Wave banned, Agility Porygon no longer had to fear being paralyzed and could easily set up Agility and sweep with its powerful STAB Double-Edge as well as wide range of coverage moves. This set quickly became popular and even metagame warping, so we decided to have a council vote to quickban it:

	grape tylenol	reggg	Quinn
Porygon	Ban	Ban	Ban

Tagging dhelmise for implementation (PR is here).

I don't have much for other ADV LC news right now, but stay tuned as both LPL 13 and ADV Grand Slam are coming up and may feature ADV LC!

 

[SkidandPump102]

Do y'all think Diglett is gonna be ban worthy now?

I mean Porygon was its most consistent check.

I feel like its other checks like wailmer and cacnea (maybe?) can be flushed out in different ways, and elekid is too unreliable having to land a 50/50 everytime to win the match up.

 

[Quinn]

Do y'all think Diglett is gonna be ban worthy now?

I mean Porygon was its most consistent check.

I feel like its other checks like wailmer and cacnea (maybe?) can be flushed out in different ways, and elekid is too unreliable having to land a 50/50 everytime to win the match up.

It wouldn't suprise me if diglett becomes the next target to be banned. I imagine trapinch will be used more to stop diglett from going rampant. I think the best for now is to test the new metagame and wait how it develops

 

[SkidandPump102]

I'm back to making bad pokemon work : Part I lost count

Venonat wait wait don't scroll away!

Venonat has one niche and one niche only. Paralysis.
Due to Twave being banned paralysis has basically been erased from existence, but Thunder Wave is banned, not all paralysis. Venonat can use stun spore to paralyze things instead of thunder wave.
If spikes are not on the field, it can tank a hit from even the strongest diglett (+1 236 Atk Diglett Rock Slide vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Venonat: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). So it can switch in on diglett, tank a hit, heal up with sitrus berry, then it can proceed to either paralyze diglett (Which basically makes it almost as good as gone) or paralyze something else (Most things do NOT want to get paralyzed in this format.)

Besides paralysis Venonat doesn't really have much, it has thief which could be useful and it has giga drain which can hit diglett massively.

Overall I think Venonat could work as a paralysis spreader (And the most consistent one as well because of compound eyes.) In place of the thunder wave ban.

 

[SkidandPump102]

I'm back to making bad pokemon work : Part I lost count

Venonat wait wait don't scroll away!

View attachment 670913Venonat has one niche and one niche only. Paralysis.
Due to Twave being banned paralysis has basically been erased from existence, but Thunder Wave is banned, not all paralysis. Venonat can use stun spore to paralyze things instead of thunder wave.
If spikes are not on the field, it can tank a hit from even the strongest diglett (+1 236 Atk Diglett Rock Slide vs. 196 HP / 196 Def Venonat: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). So it can switch in on diglett, tank a hit, heal up with sitrus berry, then it can proceed to either paralyze diglett (Which basically makes it almost as good as gone) or paralyze something else (Most things do NOT want to get paralyzed in this format.)

Besides paralysis Venonat doesn't really have much, it has thief which could be useful and it has giga drain which can hit diglett massively.

Overall I think Venonat could work as a paralysis spreader (And the most consistent one as well because of compound eyes.) In place of the thunder wave ban.

Sub Liechi berry diglett is actually a good answer to this set... Venonat could alternatively keep pressing giga drain instead of using stun spore.

I still think Venonat has earned its spot as the new best paralysis spreader in the tier.

 

[grape tylenol]

LPL 13 Signups Now Open
Player signups for LPL 13 (Levi's Premier League) are now open. LPL is a popular Discord team tournament featuring many generations of Little Cup (including ADV LC) as well as other LC metagames such as LC UU and LC Doubles!

LPL is a great team tournament for players who are new to the community. Even if you go undrafted, you will still have a chance to play on the scrubs team! If you are looking to make a name for yourself in ADV LC in a team tournament environment, this is a great place to start. If you are a more experienced player, this is a great place to get some games in too!

To sign up for LPL 13, join the Discord and fill out the player signup form. If you wish to vote in the old generation or other metagame vote, be sure to sign up before 9 AM Thursday, October 3, GMT-4.

 

[Shing]

Hi, it's been over 6 months since the last time I posted here and I thought it would be a good time to make a new one. Here I will tackle the lead/early-game, mid-game, and late/end-game as to how the bans have impacted them. Take this as an early speculation because I am just theorizing by using my experience to guess it out. The goal here is to give any new or experienced players an idea of how things flow when you're playing the current tier in my point of view. What Pokemon to expect with sets highlight, why they're so good, and how to approach against them(way different than just "beating" them) to give you an understanding. I'll end each area with my takes on them as there are things I lean into personally.

Expect this to be a long post as usual, but I'll focus on at least one topic. I plan to make like 4-5 posts before the year ends because I'm a slow writer who tends to get slightly burned out by making each of them. The next one will highlight moves/sets/mons and other meta-related things, while after that are going to be dedicated to what happened after LPL, specifically the Clampert optimization, the adaptations, and the rise of the paralysis archetype, and maybe the upcoming of Agility Porygon. I promised myself that I would accomplish this, and I decided to finish this year since ADV LC is one of two things I will use my time on since it doesn't take that much of my time every day.


Lead / Early game
Since the 2nd Money tour and ADVPL, the leads have leaned towards bulk over the fast leads. The bulky leads have been shown to gain more advantages as they take hits from fast strong leads while threatening an OHKO back. They have also more options on the table as fast leads tend to have a very one-dimensional approach to their gameplay. And while this isn't pointed out so much by the general player base, the Clamperl ban has significantly toned down the power creep as Clamperl teams OHKO'd almost every Pokemon that was slower than it, regardless if you were bulky. That alone made it extremely discouraging for teams to run slower Pokemon because Clamperl could appear at any time, and using a slow lead vs. Clamperl lead puts you at a heavy disadvantage already. I believe this is the main reason why bulky leads rose as they had answers that covered a huge range of offensive threats.

What leads should you expect nowadays? These Pokemon are something you have to always take into account when building your lead vs them because of how they pose in the lead meta.

(Wailmer) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Water Veil Level: 5 EVs: 36 HP / 236 Def / 200 SpA / 36 Spe Bold Nature - Water Spout - Surf / Hydro Pump / Hidden Power [Grass] - Hidden Power [Grass] / Ice Beam / Icy Wind - Self-Destruct

(Doduo) @ Choice Band Ability: Early Bird Level: 5 EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe Jolly Nature - Double-Edge - Drill Peck - Quick Attack - Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Steel]

Anorith @ Sitrus Berry / Choice Band Ability: Battle Armor Level: 5 EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe Jolly Nature - Rock Blast - Brick Break - Swords Dance / Hidden Power [Bug] - Substitute / Hidden Power [Bug] / Rock Slide (36 Def if not using Hidden Power Bug)

Wailmer is still the best lead, and I don't see that being for a while IMO. The only thing that challenged its status was the T-wave Snubbull set which had a strong uprising in ADVPL IV, but since the move is banned Snubbull has fallen far back in the lead meta. We know why Wailmer is good as each set can tank a hit against the majority of the tier, making it not as simple to figure out at the lead. In this case, Physdef Wailmer has been the standard set since ADVPL as Sp. Atk leads have been in decline due to many of them sharing frail bulk while Physical ones tend to be more flexible in their options; utility, and bulk-wise. This set is different from the dex sets as it's bulkier than the offensive set, but still powerful enough to threaten the majority of the tier compared to the Sp. Def set. Of course, Lead Wailmer is a response to the general meta so this set may not be the standard in the future, but how it approaches vs the tier will always be the same thing in every meta. Since there's only a handful of mons that can OHKO its defensive sets, the best approach vs Wailmer leads is to run a lead that's able to dish Modest Water Spout by itself or use some sort of core to play around Wailmer sets as Wailmer leads can use Icy Wind into Water Spout to punish the interaction where your lead can take a hit while being faster and OHKO it before Wailmer can do back in the first three turns. Wailmer is the premier Special Attacker in the lead, and covering this essentially means you've covered against every other Special Attacker in terms of power IMO.


While I believe this set is overrated as a lead, you've to be instinctively prepared for it when building your team. CB Doduo is still capable of having the power to OHKO almost everything with few drawbacks while being categorized in the fast tiers(18-20 are considered"fast" in adv lc terms). Doduo is someone you'll see as it appears till the end of the game as priority is such an important tool and you don't get trapped. It's the premier Physical Attacker and covering this means you'll understand the benchmark of Physical Attackers IMO. Why I think it's overrated is because it still suffers from being one-dimensional, and you have plenty of ways to play against it, from a standalone check into a core of defensive typing synergy e.g. Electric + Ghost, and being 18 makes it vulnerable against other faster mons. CB Doduo isn't the only set it has since it can run Sub Sitrus or Agility Frail, but the counterplay doesn't change much.


Anorith lead are usually considered a niche in the T-wave days. But now I think it changes the dynamics of lead meta in such a way that I had to put it with these two above. The biggest reason why is that Rock Blast is arguably the most powerful move in the game, on a mon that is the 3rd highest base attack backed with a stab, 18 speed, and has the perfect coverage which makes it impossible to switch in. Nothing likes taking 4-5 hits from Rock Blast as well, even the resisted ones have a chance to get OHKO'd. The bulk is impressive enough that Anorith has a chance to survive hits that you wouldn't expect, making that it's kind of required to run a super effective move against it. As a lead, it's like a vibe check against less common leads such as Fire Leads, Spikes, Voltorb; mons that can't OHKO it while it handles their lead set pretty well. Trapping is probably the best set to deal with it as CB Diglett and Atk Invested Trapinch can OHKO it in one hit, making Anorith very vulnerable to trapping. To some degree, it has a 4mss if you want to use Substitute or Endure as your 4th slot, so there are more unexplored counterplays against it. Regardless I see it as a mon that no one likes to switch in, but it can get threatened/removed quickly if you have the mon. It's most likely better at the endgame positions, but it has a weird impact on the lead that it made me have to respect it as it can 6-0 a team out of nowhere if not prepared vs it.

Bulky leads
Here are some highlights I want to show from highlighting them and giving them some new EV spread as well they're that noticeable for me.

(Snubbull) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Intimidate Level: 5 EVs: 196 HP / 116 Atk / 36 Def / 120 SpD / 36 Spe Careful Nature - Bulk Up - Body Slam / Double Edge - Earthquake - Hidden Power [Steel] / Shadow Ball

(Lileep) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Suction Cups Level: 5 EVs: 68 HP / 188 Atk / 140 Def / 32 SpA / 64 SpD Brave Nature - Rock Slide - Giga Drain - Hidden Power [Ground] - Toxic​

(Pineco) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Sturdy Level: 5 EVs: 196 HP / 76 Def / 236 SpD Careful Nature - Spikes - Rapid Spin / Earthquake - Light Screen / Earthquake / Protect - Explosion

Bulky lead Cacnea @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Sand Veil Level: 5 EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD Bold / Calm NatureIVs: 0 Atk - Spikes - Giga Drain - Encore - Destiny Bond / Thunder Punch / Protect Fast Lead Cacnea @ Salac Berry Ability: Sand Veil Level: 5 EVs: 36 HP / 196 SpD / 236 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Spikes - Endure - Encore - Destiny Bond

Snubbull may have taken a hit from the recent ban, but that only means it'll have to just adapt to new things in the lead department. I created a set where it's able to handle all the 3 mons above me.
Vs Wailmer you want to use Body Slam as it has a likely chance to avoid triggering the Sitrus and switch to another mon that takes hits vs it. Vs Doduo, you'd want to bulk up though Body Slam isn't always the worst option, and for Anorith you want to Bulk Up -> HP Steel if that interaction happens. Here are the calcs for what it's worth.

Calcs

200+ SpA 30 IVs Wailmer Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 196 HP / 120+ SpD 30 IVs Snubbull: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
-1 236 Atk Choice Band Doduo Double-Edge vs. 196 HP / 36 Def Snubbull: 20-24 (80 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Anorith Brick Break vs. 196 HP / 36 Def Snubbull: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

116 Atk Snubbull Body Slam vs. 36 HP / 236 Def Wailmer: 12-15 (40 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
116 Atk Snubbull Body Slam vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Wailmer: 11-13 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 116 Atk Snubbull Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Doduo: 20-24 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 116 Atk Snubbull Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Anorith: 22-26 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Snubbull is one of the few viable setup leads I believe in. Now the problem I noticed is that despite the coverage, it suffers from a 4mss dilemma where you can't cover Magnemite, Gastly(Will-O-Wisp), and Anorith at the same time unless you commit no normal stab which puts you worse vs a lot of things IMO. The second is that it's probably better as a midgame where you can use this and its other utility set. Otherwise, a strong anti-meta lead leads you to interesting paths in teambuilding.


Lileep has always been a lead people have mixed feelings about. It has a lot of anti-meta strengths as its typing + bulk allows it to survive things that most could ever dream of. On the other hand, it lacks the power to threaten back almost anything. Lileep can handle the big three at once but is weak against bulkier leads that will take advantage of its passive nature. This set is more different than the dex set as you can OHKO Anorith and Doduo in one hit, and running Toxic helps its passive problem slightly. It's not afraid of Anorith besides the CB Bug set, and it can 1v1 Wailmer and Doduo comfortably. I'd use this if I notice my opponent is not running bulky leads besides Wailmer. Building with Lileep requires more knowledge of the tier because it leads to different structures that aren't the standard due to its weird synergy with the others.


Porygon's department has significantly impacted the bulk aspect of the mid/late game positions, limiting more mons that aren't OHKO'd with 1-2 spikes. Therefore it's quick to think that Spikes Leads are buffed from this ban. However, I cannot agree with this take completely. Because the leads are becoming bulkier, it means they will take advantage of Spikes-users weak damage output and 4mss, and therefore there will be strong counterplay vs them once the meta develops. All of them also share one typing weakness that's the same and have similar bulk so preparing vs all at once isn't a difficult task. I haven't even mentioned that spikes could fall off as all spikes users are kinda mediocre on their own w/o it. But I think Spikes as a whole has a strong and viable place in the meta, but I think it's better as not a lead and I'll explain more on that once on the mid-game aspect.

I'm not even sure who's the best spikes lead as it's always meta-depended and things can quickly change throughout the development. Pineco is very straightforward mon and usually has a strong meta response whenever it changes. Sadly the weaknesses are much more noticeable right now as it has a huge 4mss against covering against ghosts, steel types, and mons that can OHKO it at the same time. I think they're a bit worse at the lead meta. However, they're still very consistent at pulling 1 spike and if that's what you want Pineco is solid at it. Pineco just struggles to stop mons that use sub and boost moves. As for the set itself, SpDef is used more due to the rise of Water Spout Wailmer and you have a multitude of other mons that can cover vs CB lead Doduo. Anorith is a different case as even switching in your trapper isn't safe, so the next best safe bet is Bold Wailmer and Bulky Staryu.
Cacnea is more interesting for me as it has some adaptations I've been exploring, particularly the Fast Lead as it can create a weird scenario where it can decide to Spike or pull Destiny Bond while outspeeds the whole tier at the same time. Either way, the bulky lead is still solid as Encore makes it less passive than Pineco, albeit not that much. It suffers from similar issues as Pineco, worse on defensive typing and no explosion, but has more utility and a bit more mix on their sets.
As for covering their weak spots, having a trapper to cover mons like Anorith, and bulky Ghost types like Spdef Gastly is something you'll expect for Spikes-focused teams. Pineco teams tend to be more flexible in the building as you aren't completely reliant on typing synergy compared to Cacnea where it feels like you want to structure your teams with strong defensive typing synergy due to Cacnea's awkward typing and base stat.

Other noticeable leads that do impact, but aren't strictly lead-specific.

(Trapinch) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Arena Trap Level: 5 EVs: 156 HP / 116 Atk / 156 Def / 76 SpD Impish Nature - Earthquake - Quick Attack - Rock Slide - Protect	(Gastly) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Levitate Level: 5 EVs: 36 HP / 36 SpA / 236 SpD / 196 Spe Timid Nature / Hasty Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Thunderbolt - Psychic / Giga Drain - Giga Drain / Thief - Will-O-Wisp / Explosion	(Staryu) @ Sitrus Berry Level: 5 Ability: Natural Cure EVs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 236 Spe IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA Timid Nature - Hydro Pump / Surf - Thunderbolt - Ice Beam - Hidden Power Grass
(Cubone) @ Thick Club Level: 5 Ability: Rock Head EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 40 SpD / 236 Spe Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature - Bonemerang - Double-Edge - Hidden Power [Ghost] / Sword Dance - Protect / Sword Dance	(Magby) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Flame Body Level: 5 EVs: 76 Atk / 116 SpA / 252 Spe Hasty Nature - Substitute - Focus Punch - Fire Blast - Toxic / Confuse Ray	Normal set Ponyta @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Flash Fire Level: 5 EVs: 36 HP / 240 SpA / 196 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA - Substitute - Fire Blast - Hidden Power [Grass] - Toxic My take on the lead set Ponyta @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Flash Fire Level: 5 EVs: 76 Atk / 236 SpA / 196 Spe Hasty Nature - Substitute - Overheat - Body Slam - Toxic

Trapinch isn't a typical lead you would expect, and honestly, it's not going to appear as early because the meta needs to be defined before it can have a place in the tier. What it has over Diglett is slightly more bulk backed up with a stronger base attack and key moves like Quick Attack, which is ideal for the lead meta. Even if you don't have the right MU, you would usually force them to stay in and you can respond to the lead with your switch-in. Protect is more ideal than Toxic as it helps you scout vs CB Doduo, which you can take advantage of using typing immunity/resistance cores vs it. I created a way different set than the usual SpDef one as it can remove Anorith from the field, but you've still enough SpDef to tank hits from Elekid. It's probably better in the later positions, but I find it oddly interesting as a lead as only a handful can make a team out of it as you've to understand how to approach each wrong matchup vs it, especially when Trapinch can be used again later in the field.


Gastly is much better on mid-late positions, but it's one of the few leads that can handle all water leads and doesn't completely lose vs Doduo and Anorith. It's also the only viable Will-O-Wisp as the others get invalidated by Wailmer or struggle to fit them in. The gameplay is just the same when you're using it in mid-late positions, but you're just pulling it out in t1. The lead does have glaring flaws as you sacrifice power for bulk, which doesn't sound so good versus bulky leads. In theory, Gastly can handle any mons trying to switch in, but the coverage isn't as widespread which gives it a glaring 4mss problem, therefore there are a good amount of mons that can switch in vs its sets. Gastly does have many different sets it can pull out of the lead, but I didn't think they were worth mentioning as they can be incredibly specific. I can see this lead fall off, but right now I am putting this up here because it has value in my eyes. Spdef Gastly is used because IMO Gastly has enough power to KO things that I want to deal with, and the bulk lets it take Water Attacks like a champ tbh.


Staryu despite being nerfed from the T-Wave ban is still advantageous vs the Big 3. I just don't vibe it as a lead because it's not that big of a threat despite near-perfect coverage. It doesn't have enough power to OHKO things, a similar problem of Lileep and it can be easily removed by CB Diglett. I find it preferable as a mid-game cleaner where you can utilize Rapid Spin or its difficult coverage once you've weakened the opposing team. There are some sets that I've been seeing that differ from the one I have seen above, such as running more physdef to avoid OHKO'd by Diglett and using Surf/Hydro Pump to play around the Sitrus Berry Rolls. So I can see Staryu being developed even if I prefer it at mid-game positions instead.


Cubone is a niche lead, but I find it always appealing as it's an explosive one that can threaten a lot of bulky leads. Admittedly I've been experimenting with it and using different hidden powers to improve vs other lead matchups, but I cannot judge them enough to find them worthy enough to be mentioned here. Besides it being slow and can't use Sitrus Berry, it has a very awkward team-building synergy due to competing ground types vs Trapinch and Diglett. Using Double Ground is a very high commitment in a tier full of water types as well. So it's a lead you aren't going to encounter a lot, and probably more at the later positions instead. For what it's worth, Adamant has better rolls but Jolly avoids the 13-speed creeps and I find it more fitting if you're running SD with it in general.


Fire leads are relatively uncommon as a lead, but when they do get the right matchup it can be tricky to stop them. Even if you're going to switch to a water type they will either remove the Sitrus or chip you with the Toxic + Sub combo, the latter having a near unresisted coverage. The Speed also helps them significantly against most Water Types as they would only need to worry about Staryu and you avoid the ugly 18-speed creeps. Despite that, they're still a victim against trappers, although none of them can switch in safely as Diglett doesn't have the bulk vs them and Trapinch outright loses to Sub + Toxic Combo.
Now Magby and Ponyta are slightly different as Magby uses Focus Punch to threaten Diglett instead, but also has Confuse Ray and Flame Body for their dishonest uses lol... Ponyta is a bit simpler in the game plan but has some that make me think it has more of an edge over Magby. Overheat for example OHKO's Anorth unlike Fire Blast for both mons, and Body Slam + Fire + Toxic is kinda of a baller coverage that has few drawbacks in a tier like ADV LC. Magby may be deadly due to toying with the RNG, but Ponyta has a bit more consistent approach that attracts me. As for building teams with it, Fire types do have its weird synergy as they like having grass types or Chinchou to cover Water Types for anyone wanting to build with them. Both of them are Hasty as well because the SpDef bulk can be clutch vs Abra btw.

Leads that are probably better being used at the other positions than the lead itself.

(Elekid) @ Sitrus Berry Level: 5 Ability: Static EVs: 176 Atk / 80 SpA / 236 Spe Naive Nature - Substitute - Focus Punch - Hidden Power Grass / Toxic - Thunderbolt

(Voltorb) @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Static Level: 5 EVs: 116 HP / 40 Atk / 36 Def / 80 SpA / 196 Spe Timid Nature - Substitute - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Grass] - Explosion

(Diglett) @ Choice Band Ability: Arena Trap Level: 5 EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe Jolly Nature - Earthquake - Rock Slide - Double-Edge - Hidden Power [Ghost] / Sludge Bomb

Abra @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Synchronize Level: 5 Timid Nature IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA - Calm Mind - Psychic - Hidden Power [Water] / Thief - Barrier / Sub / Encore

Electrics leads have been just in a huge decline in the lead meta. Both Elekid and Voltorb lack the output dmg to OHKO things, while Elekid itself is frail af and you cannot commit using bulk with it while Voltorb can only threaten with Explosion to OHKO things due to lack of power and poor coverage. But I just also think they're much better off as an endgame cleaner to begin with as Elekid has a much stronger cleaner potential after the Porygon ban and Voltorb is just more solid to keep things in check on the endgame scenarios overall. Although I do think Voltorb has slightly more niche tools such as rain and light screen while being among the fastest for what it's worth. Unless the meta becomes water centralized these leads are not going to appear and the t-wave ban hurt them a ton.


Diglett leads aren't really bad per se, but most teams want to eliminate Diglett as quickly as possible so I just don't think going for lead Diglett is worthy just because of how much value you bring it in. The SpDef set isn't bad really, but there's less point in using the bulky set as there are numerous bulkier mons rn and since the Porygon ban, you'll more than likely see CB Diglett being used. I'll explain that once we are getting into the mid-game and late-game part. Just use Trapinch over Diglett tbh.


Lead Abra is the definition of cheese and fishing to the fullest point. It can unironically 6-0 team if you have a truly bad MU or you don't know how to face it. But then you can also die to an explosion from Pineco even at +4 Barrier LMAO. Lead Abra doesn't have the perfect widespread coverage as well and you'll be stuck on the teambuilding if you want to use bulky or offensive not. Bulky ones lead you to be able to tank explosion with +4 Def boost and the Offensive set gives you the ability to OHKO(well nearly)Lead Anorith with HP Water for example. It's such a gimmick that it makes me laugh whenever I see it on lead and to see if it gets the right MU or if the opponent plays it wrong due to Abra having infinite sets that can oddly work versus so many things. It's not the worst thing, but you would find much more value as an endgame sweeper or rain dance setup.


I'll briefly mention this as this has appeared many times back in Clamperl meta, and to some degree after the ban. But yeah it's very outclassed by Pineco's bulk and Cacnea having more use with the speed. It had legitimate uses back in the 2023 meta, but right now it's just too incredibly niche that I wouldn't consider using it. It has its uses if you want to outspeed the 14-speed tier, noticeable Cacnea, and Cubone. Icy Wind is value for speed control if you combo it with with Endure + Salac, and Ice-type isn't that horrible as a typing so you can get away with bulk alone tbh. But the bans since Clamperl has just hurt its viability and therefore it's not worth using it unless you have the specific needs that I mentioned above.

Another Pokemon I didn't mention is Chinchou, which feels awkward to be categorized above there IMO. But it's a noticeable lead that covered Electrics and Wailmer at the same time, and I could see it having uses in the lead meta. It's just something out of comfort for me because I prefer using it more in the later positions instead.


Conclusion: As I see it the meta has been developed and stabilized to the point that there's a somewhat clear line between what's good and not, and it's heading towards mons that have the bulk to survive a hit and threaten to OHKO the opposing lead in one hit. The Fast lead archetypes have to rely on some oppressing strength or rely on slight bulk with some power that hits specific targets to compete. Slow and Bulky leads seem to the solved more as time goes on and I do think they define the lead meta overall. But the lead meta itself isn't anything near to being completely solved and I don't think it will for a long time IMO. There are dynamics I do notice, but there are just too many different factors for me that it's impossible for me to predict how the lead will go. Things can just drastically change in the future and I can be wrong. The lead meta itself despite being focused on the first, they're also heavily impacted by the 2nd or 3rd mons which creates a lot more thoughts that I cannot answer with full confidence.

I will say this position interests me a lot. There's nothing that feels like over-centralization or fishy to the point atm. Like even lead Wailmer has appropriate responses and it just speaks for itself that there are a ton of ways to express yourself in the lead meta department that it doesn't feel too restrictive like the T-Wave meta. I guess what I am saying is that I'm excited to see the direction the lead can go because there is less bullshit to think of and you can be creative af in this position.

Ugh, this should have been over weeks ago, but I kept neglecting it and that can lead me to forget things. It's supposed to be one whole topic talking about positions, but I think I've a lot to say so I'll have to make a post to each position. See this as one topic with 3 parts in it, and hopefully, I'll get out Mid-game and End-game even if it interferes LPL and traveling to smash tournaments by October.
Here are some teams for those who read to the end or scrolled down lol.
https://pokepast.es/573a11265e06ff76
https://pokepast.es/df6b9e64fdc225e7
https://pokepast.es/70db9856244c3982
https://pokepast.es/014f52730d33a924

 

[grape tylenol]

ADV LC Open Signups Now Open
ADV LC is a part of this year's ADV Grand Slam, and as such, there will be yet another ADV LC Open! Signups are now open (click here) and will close Sunday, October 20th at 11:59 PM GMT-4.

 

[AlyssaVGC]

Free naere council grahh

 

[yenguardian]

View attachment 577907
art by Albatross
approved by phoopes

Welcome to the ADV LC Thread!​

ADV LC is a metagame that has been around on and off since 2014, but recently saw a revival and serious development in 2023. ADV LC is a bit different from other LC metagames thanks to generation 3's unique mechanics:

• No physical special split - as a result, some Pokemon lose STAB they would normally have, but also gain coverage through Hidden Power or other moves.
• Reduced item pool - items that are staples in other generations such as Eviolite or Choice Scarf do not exist in generation 3! Common items include Sitrus Berry (which restores 30HP,) pinch berries (like the Salac Berry,) Choice Band, and type boosting items (like Silk Scarf.)
• Early turn ends - Unlike future generations, the turn ends as soon as a Pokemon faints. This creates opportunities to deny your opponent a turn by using Explosion or sacking a Pokemon to hazards.

This metagame had a 4 year period of inactivity, and has been shaken up by recent bans made in 2023. As a result, there is plenty to discover in ADV LC! If you are interested in talking about or playing ADV LC, you are welcome to join the Discord! You can also challenge other players on Pokemon Showdown using the [Gen 3] LC format!

Resources

Tiering Council

grape tylenol (Tier Leader)
reggg
Quinn

Banlist

Pokemon:
Moves: Sonic Boom, Dragon Rage, Baton Pass, Swagger, sleep inducing moves, accuracy lowering moves, Thunder Wave

Viability Rankings

S
Abra
Diglett

A+
Doduo
Wailmer

A
Elekid
Gastly
Snubbull
Staryu
Voltorb

A-
Anorith
Chinchou
Houndour
Koffing
Pineco
Trapinch

B+
Cacnea
Cubone
Larvitar
Lileep
Magnemite

B
Bagon
Duskull
Exeggcute
Horsea
Ponyta

B-
Onix
Snorunt

C
Baltoy
Carvanha

Sample Teams

Please note that the sample team below is from before the Porygon ban.

sample tylenol by grape tylenol

Please note that the sample teams below are from before the Thunder Wave ban.

Normal Spam by reggg


Houndour + Anorith Offence by naere


Lileep T&P by Cawil Maxamad


Triple Electric by Zcarlett


Meta Defining Team by LeJames Chonk


Staryu go brrr + Boomspam + Barrier Abra Surprise by Kaboom

Sample sets for any Pokemon on the Viability Ranking can be found on the Smogon Strategy Pokedex.

Role Compendium

Spikes:
Rapid Spin:
Encore:
Taunt:
Trick:
Memento:
Explosion:
Self-Destruct:

Quick Attack:

Endure

Thief

Knock Off*:
*Thief is usually better than Knock Off, but Anorith, Corphish, and Makuhita do not learn it.

Agility:
Belly Drum:
Bulk Up:
Calm Mind:
Curse:
Dragon Dance:
Swords Dance:

Rain Abusers:
Sun Abusers:
Sand Abusers*:
*Sand Veil only

Speed Tiers

Speed	Sprite	Pokemon	Base	Nature	IVs	EVs	±
32		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	+2
30		Horsea	60	Neutral	31	196	+2
28		Larvitar	41	Positive	31	188	+2
26		Bagon	50	Neutral	31	116	+2
24		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	+1
22		Exeggcute	40	Neutral	31	36	+2
21		Larvitar	41	Positive	31	188	+1
20		Diglett	95	Positive	31	236	0
20		Elekid	95	Positive	31	236	0
20		Voltorb	100	Positive	31	196	0
19		Abra	90	Positive	31	196	0
19		Staryu	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Bagon	50	Neutral	31	116	+1
19		Ponyta	90	Positive	31	196	0
18		Doduo	75	Positive	31	236	0
18		Gastly	80	Positive	31	196	0
18		Anorith	75	Positive	31	236	0
17		Onix	70	Positive	31	196	0
16		Chinchou	67	Neutral	31	220	0
16		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	0
15		Wailmer	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Houndour	65	Neutral	31	156	0
15		Horsea	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Snorunt	50	Positive	31	196	0
14		Cacnea	35	Positive	31	236	0
14		Cubone	35	Positive	31	236	0
14		Larvitar	41	Positive	31	188	0
14		Magnemite	45	Neutral	31	236	0
13		Cubone	35	Neutral	31	236	0
13		Bagon	50	Neutral	31	116	0
13		Baltoy	55	Neutral	31	76	0
11		Koffing	35	Neutral	30	80	0
11		Exeggcute	40	Neutral	31	36	0
10		Wailmer	60	Negative	31	0	0
10		Snubbull	30	Neutral	31	36	0
10		Koffing	35	Neutral	30	0	0
10		Cacnea	35	Neutral	31	0	0
9		Snubbull	30	Neutral	31	0	0
8		Pineco	15	Neutral	31	0	0
8		Trapinch	10	Neutral	31	36	0
8		Lileep	23	Negative	31	12	0
8		Duskull	25	Negative	31	0	0

History

Note: events prior to the 2023 revival may not be documented. View the Old ADV LC Thread if you are interested in history prior to the 2023 revival.

June 1st, 2023​	Signups go up for Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open, an ADV LC tournament to encourage metagame development sponsored by faint.
June 3rd, 2023	[Gen 3] LC is added as a challenged format to Pokemon Showdown thanks to dhelmise.
June 4th, 2023	The ADV LC thread is created.
June 25th, 2023	Sleep inducing moves are banned from ADV LC.
July 9th, 2023	The first Viability Ranking for ADV LC is released.
July 16th, 2023	Discussion on whether or not Porygon should be banned is opened. Ultimately, Porygon remains in the tier.
July 29th, 2023	Baton Pass, originally only banned in combination with Agility, is banned entirely from ADV LC.
August 1st, 2023	ADV LC is featured as a Ruins of Alph Spotlight format. A spotlight tournament and monthly ladder are hosted.
August 2nd, 2023	Swagger is banned from ADV LC.
August 18th, 2023	The ADV LC vs ADV ZU crew battle takes place.
September 13th, 2023	A formal tiering council is established (grape tylenol, reggg, Kaboom, Quinn, MOHAMEDALL.) The Viability Ranking is updated.
October 1st, 2023	ADV LC is selected by LPL players to be featured in LPL11. LPL (Levi's Premier League) is an off-site biannual LC team tournament hosted on Discord by Eseque, records relating to LPL (including replays and usage statistics) can be viewed in the LPL Discord server.
November 1st, 2023	ADV LC is featured as a Ruins of Alph Spotlight format. A spotlight tournament and monthly ladder are hosted.
November 19th, 2023	The ADV LC vs ADV RU crew battle takes place.
December 10th, 2023	The Viability Ranking is updated and a Doduo suspect test is announced (Policy Review discussion thread).
December 29th, 2023	Signups go up for ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure go up, a sequel to the original Todd Bonzalez's ADV LC Open tournament.
December 31st, 2023	After an extremely close vote that goes to the deadline, Doduo remains unbanned in ADV LC.
January 1st, 2024	Introduction to ADV LC is published in The Flying Press.
January 11th, 2024	A temporary ADV LC ladder is added to Pokemon Showdown to allow players to practice for the ongoing ADV LC Open: Porygon's Bizarre Adventure tournament. The ladder ran from January to February.
January 13th, 2024	Accuracy lowering moves are banned from ADV LC via council vote.
January 26th, 2024	A DeepSeaTooth suspect test is announced.
February 5th, 2024	DeepSeaTooth is banned from ADV LC.
February 13th, 2024	The Viability Ranking is updated. The ADV LC Analysis Project is started.
March 17th, 2024	Signups for ADVPL IV, which is including ADV LC for the first time, go up.
March 18th, 2024	ADV LC is selected by LPL players to be featured in LPL12.
April 6th, 2024	Signups for ADV LC Cup, featured in LC Classic for the first time, go up.
May 7th, 2024	The Viability Ranking is updated.
June 9th, 2024	A Thunder Wave suspect test is announced (Discussion thread here).
June 25th, 2024	Thunder Wave is banned from ADV LC. The ADV LC Analysis Project is closed. Kaboom and MOHAMEDALL step down from council.
July 31, 2024	Signups go up for ADV LC No Thunder Wave Tournament, a tournament held to explore the metagame after Thunder Wave was banned.
September 15th, 2024	Porygon is banned from ADV LC via council vote.
September 26th, 2024	ADV LC is introduced as a permanent slot in LPL13.
October 14th, 2024	Signups for ADV LC Open, which is newly a part of ADV Grand Slam, go up.

anyone who wants to play LC, fuckin hmu. i'm here all weekend

 

[Shing]

anyone who wants to play LC, fuckin hmu. i'm here all weekend

Join the discord and go to the channel named @looking for game. Lot of people are willing to play more when it's a team tournament going on :)