SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

Remembered earlier that the original teaser for the thirteenth movie had Ho-Oh and Lugia clashing, which ended up being discarded in the final cut. I go back and forth on how much I like this concept - it'd probably have been cool to see, but they're one of the few legendary duos which haven't really clashed that much in any continuity. Mainly I guess because there's not much that really connects them? They're a pair and go together in some ways but generally they don't represent opposing forces or ideas. So they don't lend themselves that much to direct conflict - even in the Adventures manga they're used in tandem rather than against one another. I suppose it's possible that Zoroark could have been involved in some way (perhaps disguising itself as one of them to provoke the other) but this route wasn't taken.

Idk. I'm always interested in unused ideas and plot threads and this is one I've often thought about. Both legendaries are in the position of not really needing a huge amount of additional fleshing out, and I think the existing games have proved they don't need each other to be used in an interesting way. But I'm not automatically opposed to seeing them used as a pair more than they have been.
 
This definitely falls under the "conspiracy" umbrella, but I wonder if the major fallout of how the XY anime was handled led to the deletion of Ash-Greninja.

We know for a fact that anime staff went to Game Freak to have Ash-Greninja designed, that a lot of people throughout the Pokémon media empire didn't like the outcome of the Kalos League (to the point that TPCi's president outright told the anime writers to cut their crap and forced them to change their plans), and iirc Game Freak didn't have entirely positive opinions on how the anime had been handled even before XY. I admittedly don't know the exact timeline for when TPCi stepped in to force the anime's course change, but I'm willing to bet it was after Game Freak added Ash-Greninja in a super limited distribution for Sun and Moon. GF might have realized they had no more obligations to the anime when it was decided Ash was actually being retired, so they deleted the form in Gen 8 to wash their hands of the whole thing and force the anime to follow suit in flashbacks.

Also likely because they want to have Mega Greninja down the line.
 
Karxrida said:
This definitely falls under the "conspiracy" umbrella, but I wonder if the major fallout of how the XY anime was handled led to the deletion of Ash-Greninja.

We know for a fact that anime staff went to Game Freak to have Ash-Greninja designed, that a lot of people throughout the Pokémon media empire didn't like the outcome of the Kalos League (to the point that TPCi's president outright told the anime writers to cut their crap and forced them to change their plans), and iirc Game Freak didn't have entirely positive opinions on how the anime had been handled even before XY. I admittedly don't know the exact timeline for when TPCi stepped in to force the anime's course change, but I'm willing to bet it was after Game Freak added Ash-Greninja in a super limited distribution for Sun and Moon. GF might have realized they had no more obligations to the anime when it was decided Ash was actually being retired, so they deleted the form in Gen 8 to wash their hands of the whole thing and force the anime to follow suit in flashbacks.

Also likely because they want to have Mega Greninja down the line.
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TPCi's ability to apparently do this, potentially years after the issue arose, is surprisingly powerful

Is there like...sources, about that fallout. I know that the tetra leak had some stuff about gamefreak/TPC grumbling about the Horizons anime's handling or not handling of certain things, with some translated emails here & there but even then there does not seem to be the level of spite that would lead to deleting an entire form because Ash lost, for a reason that didn't even correspond with why the form existed.

Thing I'd float is they just got rid of it for simplicity. If they wanted scorched earth on the anime for Kalos transgressions they'd probably have dumped the cap Pikachu and not made dada zarude and honestly the zygardes probably would've gotten changed
 
My thing is why would disliking something like Ash losing the Kalos League lead to deleting the Ash-Greninja form from continuity? If anything wouldn't favoring the scenario of Ash winning that League make them biased to keeping the form that would have gotten the win around (or at least send it off without literally retconning it out of flashbacks)?

My Conspiracy for Ash-Greninja was always that TPC didn't like the idea of Ash's win coming down to a new mon's super form as the poster boy. Notice how the two wins that made headlines (Ash winning Alola and then Leon in the Coronation Series) put their final bouts down to Pikachu, whether directly or indirectly (the Tapu Koko battle right after the actual tournament), and the Galar closer was Pikachu vs a Charizard user who they made no secret about being an Ace (bonus points for "Leon" also being the name of the Indigo League Pikachu that cost Ash the OG run). A good deal of this assumption is because I'm just cynical with their refusal to let you forget Pikachu (or Charizard) for more than a week ever since Gen 6 happened in general (up to and including Horizons) and Greninja's popularity plus story role setting it up as a prime scapegoat for such an example.
 
pika pal said:
My thing is why would disliking something like Ash losing the Kalos League lead to deleting the Ash-Greninja form from continuity? If anything wouldn't favoring the scenario of Ash winning that League make them biased to keeping the form that would have gotten the win around (or at least send it off without literally retconning it out of flashbacks)?

My Conspiracy for Ash-Greninja was always that TPC didn't like the idea of Ash's win coming down to a new mon's super form as the poster boy. Notice how the two wins that made headlines (Ash winning Alola and then Leon in the Coronation Series) put their final bouts down to Pikachu, whether directly or indirectly (the Tapu Koko battle right after the actual tournament), and the Galar closer was Pikachu vs a Charizard user who they made no secret about being an Ace (bonus points for "Leon" also being the name of the Indigo League Pikachu that cost Ash the OG run). A good deal of this assumption is because I'm just cynical with their refusal to let you forget Pikachu (or Charizard) for more than a week ever since Gen 6 happened in general (up to and including Horizons) and Greninja's popularity plus story role setting it up as a prime scapegoat for such an example.
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I still think that maybe we're veering too much into spite territory here

The last non-Zygarde battle was a 3-way defeat of Lysandre's Mega Gyarados by Greninja, Charizard and Pikachu. The circumstances of the entire thing are pretty different for the series (the traditional battling went out the window and the giant rock was a full team effort that involved squishy nuking lysandre from orbit) but it's not that dissimilar to Pikachu getting the finale against Tapu Koko (as opposed to his actual championship coming down to lycanroc) and Leon's charizard and equally relevantly, the sinnoh league where while Infernape got the final blow against Paul, Pikachu was brought out to be the one to get the KO on Darkrai and take down Latios for Tobias.

I think that even if ash had been written to win against Alain things would likely either play out about the same (so Pikachu still gets a notable win, even as a group effort), or they'd tweak it so greninja set up a ko for Pikachu (since the villain plot can feel more disconnected).
 
R_N said:
Is there like...sources, about that fallout. I know that the tetra leak had some stuff about gamefreak/TPC grumbling about the Horizons anime's handling or not handling of certain things, with some translated emails here & there but even then there does not seem to be the level of spite that would lead to deleting an entire form because Ash lost, for a reason that didn't even correspond with why the form existed.
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The only thing we know for sure is the part where TPCi directly forced the anime to have the Alola win happen.

Tbh I don't even fully buy into my own theory – I'm not gonna go around peddling it or anything. I just thought it would be fun to talk about.

pika pal said:
My thing is why would disliking something like Ash losing the Kalos League lead to deleting the Ash-Greninja form from continuity? If anything wouldn't favoring the scenario of Ash winning that League make them biased to keeping the form that would have gotten the win around (or at least send it off without literally retconning it out of flashbacks)?
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I don't know? I'm just trying to rationalize a reason that makes some degree of sense, because it's just super fucking weird that the form was wholesale deleted from both the games and anime. The only other Pokémon forms that are currently gone are the Primals, Ultra Necrozma, and Gigantimaxes, and they at least have the excuse of being tied to defunct battle gimmicks. Battle Bond is only Mega adjacent and returned in Gen 9 with a completely different function. There's a nonzero chance Ash-Greninja will never come back if PLZA gives us Mega Greninja.
 
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12-XVI said:
Maybe they got rid of it because the new Battle Bond is easier to animate. Obviously GF hates animating stuff in Pokemon.

Either way it is too bad because Ash Greninja is pretty cool especially compared to a few regular stat boosts.
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Realistically they probably didn't want to model and texture a limited distribution pokemon from 6 years prior that became mostly inaccessible with the closure of the eshop. If they had planned to make it accessible again then it might have been a worthwhile use of resources, but since Ash has been retired as a character it's not a particularly compelling event from TPC's side of things.
 
The games nuking Ash-Gren isn't too weird because as Merritt just said it's a tie-in for a series that ended close to a decade ago. Unlike the Ash Hat Pikachus which are just alt costumes for a shitmon it was also a competitively relevant form for an already good Pokemon that frankly should've never been put in the games anyway. Now, the form being memory-holed in Journeys? That is legitimately weird, still no clue what to make of that.

I want a source on Ash's SM win being a TPCi executive demand btw, sounds fascinating
 
Karxrida said:
This definitely falls under the "conspiracy" umbrella, but I wonder if the major fallout of how the XY anime was handled led to the deletion of Ash-Greninja.

We know for a fact that anime staff went to Game Freak to have Ash-Greninja designed, that a lot of people throughout the Pokémon media empire didn't like the outcome of the Kalos League (to the point that TPCi's president outright told the anime writers to cut their crap and forced them to change their plans), and iirc Game Freak didn't have entirely positive opinions on how the anime had been handled even before XY. I admittedly don't know the exact timeline for when TPCi stepped in to force the anime's course change, but I'm willing to bet it was after Game Freak added Ash-Greninja in a super limited distribution for Sun and Moon. GF might have realized they had no more obligations to the anime when it was decided Ash was actually being retired, so they deleted the form in Gen 8 to wash their hands of the whole thing and force the anime to follow suit in flashbacks.

Also likely because they want to have Mega Greninja down the line.
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While I'm not sure all of this is true, I do think it raises some points that likely are.

Ash-Greninja's entire existence is really awkward. It seems like it was essentially made to fill in a gap left by the cancellation of Pokémon Z. They could've given Ash another mon to mega evolve to match his rivals, but then that would've overshadowed the rest of his Kalos team that he had already been raising for the entire saga. It could've been one of his reserves, Sycamore's Garchomp, or heck even Lucario, but it would've been a very obvious last-minute shoehorn as opposed to coming up with a new transformation for the Pokémon on his team already likely to become his "ace" of that region. They tied its design and name directly to Ash, making it challenging to implement into the main series (though clearly not impossible).

Idk if the Kalos league loss was forced or not, but it honestly makes sense in hindsight as a stepping stone to Ash's Alola and WCS victories. In any case, it definitely put all the hype Ash-Greninja received to a screeching halt. They gave Ash a special form just so he could match mega evolution's power and it got him to 2nd place in the league. The aura farming was absolutely still there, but it definitely still felt like "close but no cigar" for a lot of fans. Then the decision to release his Greninja instead of having it chill at Oak's so it could help Zygarde with the remaining vines was weird and very much felt like executive interference. The only other reason I can think of to do so is because when Ash found it as a Froakie, it was known for leaving other trainers. But Ash was clearly special as it stuck beside him as it evolved. It exists in the games as something akin to Spiky-Eared Pichu or the Cosplay Pikachu forms, though is way more popular because of the aura farm. It basically just existed for aura farming.

I think it's weird they memory-holed the form in Journeys-all they had to do was draw it in a flashback or two. They make reference to the bond phenomenon and tie it to his Mega Lucario. I'm not sure there was a mandate against featuring Ash-Greninja-if there was, they at least showed footage of it in the MPM opening and promo footage. Greninja and Battle Bond's inclusion in SV with no form seemed to really seal its fate, and if it's not in Z-A, that'll be the final nail in the coffin. Since the Kalos starters are likely to be getting megas in this game, I'm not sure how you'd have both those forms co-exist in a game without abilities. Not to mention the retiring of Ash's character. So yeah, I think GF and the other hands involved in Pokémon kinda just agreed to wash their hands of it and we're likely to finally be getting the Mega Greninja that we could've gotten a decade ago. A lot of this could've been avoided if they had just made it the one new gen 7 mega, or if they had just given Ash a Lucario in the XY saga like in the games. Ash-Greninja was a small part of Greninja's popularity, and it was already super popular in gen 6 before it came along. So I think they ultimately just wanted to treat it like a Spiky-Eared Pichu.
 
i do agree that theres no need to assume malice per se: even if the higher ups not liking the outcome of the anime is true, theyre not really going to take it out on a random pokemon of his team, theyre just gonna tell the team to fix their story writing and get the show in order for better ratings/outcomes. ash greninja was removed because ash retired, thus the form is redundant, and pokemon likes being clean and when they retcon stuff they like doing it media wide, so they just decided to remove the mentions of ash greninja in preparation for nuking it outta existence.
 
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