Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven’t experimented with this one, though I’m curious to hear from others. I do think Gyarados is on the cusp of having a niche. Being a flying type neutral to ice, optionally with intimidate, already renders it a decent switch-in to 4 of the best mons in the tier in Tusk, Zama, Lu, and Dnite, while outspeeding the latter two; adamant Gyara at +1 still outspeeds the standard IDBP Zama spread, though by a tiny margin that any speed creep will render moot. While it doesn’t want to switch into Kingambit, Woger, Hamurott, Weavile, etc., intimidate sets are useful in assisting with reining these threats in for others or itself. Its movepool includes many useful utility moves like twave, taunt, roar/dtail, and endeavor; lefties sub/twave/waterfall/phazing move is a (cheesy) set we’ve seen on paraspam teams already. Dragon dance sets with waterfall, eq, and double-edge/tblast flying/tera dragon outrage/scale shot have coverage for everything while either easing setup with intimidate or attempting to snowball with moxie. It handles most priority well, resisting bullet punch, aqua jet, and vacuum wave, while being neutral to ice shard, grassy glide, sucker punch, and shadow sneak and only weak to thunderclap. Raging Bolt is unfortunately a nightmare for it if you’re not tera ground/electric or substitute + eq, as can be Pult if you’re not Jolly tblast flying or outrage, Woger if you’re not tblast flying, tera dragon outrage, or tera normal double-edge, Zapdos if you’re not tera electric, and Dozo, Corv, Pech, and Kyurem in general. Certainly that is enough of a threatlist to satisfactorily explain why it’s not commonly used in OU, with the majority of teams being sufficiently prepared for it naturally at least unless it either takes on a more supportive role or is given significant support for its weak matchups. However, it seems strong enough to me to warrant occasional use on legitimate teams.

This reminds me of when I had a similar opinion with salamence a few months ago, mainly due to it having solid resistances, access to dragon dance, having two good abilities in intimidate which allows it to find more chances to set up against physical attackers and moxie which is known for enabling snowballing and having a high attack stat of 135 paired. This was after the ban of roaring moon and gouging fire so I was hoping to make this new dd sweeper work since I was so keen on using a moxie mon that wasn’t quaquavual (I’m sorry, but that mon is basically a double dancer a good amount of the time), I have had some success with moxie sets that have even been able to snowball from a singular use of dragon dance, the main issues with it are that its weaknesses are either too common or too severe for it to be a consistent mon and its often overwhelmed by the tier’s defensive mons.

its fairy weaknesses means that a booster energy iron valiant or a defensive clefable (a max hp and defense clefable only has a 0.2% chance of being 2kho’d by a 1+ boosted dual wingbeat) will instantly force it out, its rock weakness means that it needs to run boots without the, being knocked off and its ice weakness means that anything that can hit it with an ice move with almost always annihilate it (any use of ice shard cancels its sweep) so weavile and kyurem will be hugely problematic. Unlike dragonite, it lacks multiscale or a great movepool to help it with these issues.

These problems are severe enough, but the mons that offensively counter salamence are also accompanied by a variety of defensive mons which have their own ways of throwing salamence out of the game like a baseball (i mean it evolves from a spherical-). Clefable as mentioned before can switch in 0.2% of the time and either chunk it with moonblast or ruin it with thunder wave, ting lu tanks dual wingbeat even after a boost and can use whirlwind to send it flying away (if it were still a bagon, it would be grateful for that), Corviknight completely walls and clicks iron defense whilst salamance racks up rocky helmet damage trying to break through it, moltres avoids a 2hko and threatens to burn it on the spot, gliscor can switch in and use toxic to try and stall out of as much hp as possible (physically defensive sets embarass it especially), Zapdos not only walls it like corvknight but also threatens to para it and end any chance of it doing anything in the game, Alomomola can easily scald burn it whilst shrugging off its boosted attack and dondozo is well, dondozo :smogonbird:.It struggles with alot of these pokemon because of dd sets mainly run dual wingbeat and earthquake with roost due to its dragon stab either being a waste or too risky, so between its main stab being 80 bp in total and outrage being too risky, the sets I used lacked power.

A few other issues include raging bolt and kingambit being able to switch in and threaten with priority moves that can pick off a weakened salamence and an overall weakness to priority. Whilst its not the worst, Salamence ultimately didn’t work as I hoped due to these issues.

However, this isn’t to entirely count out gyarados, which has a few traits that can help succeed where salamence may not such as ice neutrality, I hope you can hopefully experiment with it and see how it goes!
 
Take this with a grain of salt because I haven’t experimented with this one, though I’m curious to hear from others. I do think Gyarados is on the cusp of having a niche. Being a flying type neutral to ice, optionally with intimidate, already renders it a decent switch-in to 4 of the best mons in the tier in Tusk, Zama, Lu, and Dnite, while outspeeding the latter two; adamant Gyara at +1 still outspeeds the standard IDBP Zama spread, though by a tiny margin that any speed creep will render moot. While it doesn’t want to switch into Kingambit, Woger, Hamurott, Weavile, etc., intimidate sets are useful in assisting with reining these threats in for others or itself. Its movepool includes many useful utility moves like twave, taunt, roar/dtail, and endeavor; lefties sub/twave/waterfall/phazing move is a (cheesy) set we’ve seen on paraspam teams already. Dragon dance sets with waterfall, eq, and double-edge/tblast flying/tera dragon outrage/scale shot have coverage for everything while either easing setup with intimidate or attempting to snowball with moxie. It handles most priority well, resisting bullet punch, aqua jet, and vacuum wave, while being neutral to ice shard, grassy glide, sucker punch, and shadow sneak and only weak to thunderclap. Raging Bolt is unfortunately a nightmare for it if you’re not tera ground/electric or substitute + eq, as can be Pult if you’re not Jolly tblast flying or outrage, Woger if you’re not tblast flying, tera dragon outrage, or tera normal double-edge, Zapdos if you’re not tera electric, and Dozo, Corv, Pech, and Kyurem in general. Certainly that is enough of a threatlist to satisfactorily explain why it’s not commonly used in OU, with the majority of teams being sufficiently prepared for it naturally at least unless it either takes on a more supportive role or is given significant support for its weak matchups. However, it seems strong enough to me to warrant occasional use on legitimate teams.
Your evaluation of Gyarados feels spot-on. Its combination of typing, Intimidate, and speed tier does give it some unique defensive and offensive utility, particularly in checking or at least pivoting into threats like Tusk, Zamazenta, Iron Hands, and Dragonite. Access to Dragon Dance alongside coverage that pressures many conventional answers also means it’s never completely passive, and Intimidate sets with phazing or paralysis support can serve as functional glue on certain builds.


The main problem is that the current metagame is saturated with Pokémon that either wall it out or offensively overwhelm it—Raging Bolt, Dragapult, Zapdos, Dondozo, Corviknight, and Kyurem being the clearest examples. Even when Gyarados has the tools to circumvent these with Tera or specific coverage, it often demands more support than is practical relative to alternatives. This makes it difficult to justify over other Water- or Flying-types that provide more consistent value.


That said, I don’t think it’s unviable. On the right structures, especially those that can mitigate its bad matchups, it offers a combination of role compression and wincon potential that can punish teams relying on standard checks. While I wouldn’t expect it to ever be common in OU, it’s strong enough to see occasional usage on serious builds and is at least worth keeping in mind during preparation.
 
The last time I used Gyarados in OU I didn,t even try going offensive with it, instead Restalk + Dragon Tail or Roar and some Spikers, Knockers and Ghosts as teammates. It has an amazing defensive typing and Intimidate. I doubt DD will get far without the surprise factor, its just too easy to either stop or prevent set-up.
 
I thought about trying rest talk gyara until I took a look at the damage calculator and saw wellspring power whip 2 shot it through intimidate lmao. DD sets could probably work on veil or something, I might be misremembering but I swear I saw a team with it earlier in the gen?
 
(First post as a badgeholder yay!)
Gyarados sounds pretty cool in theory due to its solid speed, intimidate, and that resistance to ice most other flying type sweepers lack in this tier but it is just too weak to Raging Bolt and electric type moves in general. It also isn't as strong as Dragonite and doesn't have priority or multiscale (though intimidate is also a great defensive ability). I am not saying it can't work but I definitely feel like it needs a lot to go right for it to sweep that isn't case for other viable dd sweepers. If someone could make it work on screens/veil though, that could be pretty interesting.
 
Does the meta feel more match up fishy than a few months ago to anyone? I feel like loading up any team I just have accept there are going to be quite a few matches that are auto losses at preview.
i've noticed that too. it seems like all of my teams are autolosing to one of like 5 different structures that are currently popular and most of them involve dnite, waterpon, and/or kingambit. hopefully the next survey allows us to remedy one or more of these issues

psst that's your cue finch
 
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Does the meta feel more match up fishy than a few months ago to anyone? I feel like loading up any team I just have accept there are going to be quite a few matches that are auto losses at preview.
yeah with the shear amount of breakers in this tier and the shear set variety its like insanly difficult to build around them all, like you need something to deal with dnite, zama, kyurem, val, wake, wogerpon, kingambit, and a million other threats, and these threats are also just busted so the metagame is just centralized around ho and offense which tend to be much more mu dependent
 
(First post as a badgeholder yay!)
Gyarados sounds pretty cool in theory due to its solid speed, intimidate, and that resistance to ice most other flying type sweepers lack in this tier but it is just too weak to Raging Bolt and electric type moves in general. It also isn't as strong as Dragonite and doesn't have priority or multiscale (though intimidate is also a great defensive ability). I am not saying it can't work but I definitely feel like it needs a lot to go right for it to sweep that isn't case for other viable dd sweepers. If someone could make it work on screens/veil though, that could be pretty interesting.
Gyarados struggles as it boasts a weakness to rocks, the abundance of water types in the tier, along with the better counterpart in dragonite. It could work but not because it contributes in the meta, but because someone wanted to use it as a feature-mon.

also, congrats on the badge man, well deserved
 
i've noticed that too. it seems like all of my teams are autolosing to one of like 5 different structures that are currently popular and most of them involve dnite, waterpon, and/or kingambit. hopefully the next survey allows us to remedy one or more of these issues

psst that's your cue finch
Lol yeah, from personal experience the only way to the avoid this is to use the same recycled Corv / Ting-Lu / removal / speed control / breaker / Woger Answer Core and obviously that cuts down on creativity a lot, and even then there's probably some really fish mon or set that can give this a hard time. Really if you want to run almost anything creative sometimes you are just gonna lose with nothing you can do about it tbh.

Also I hope we get a survey too, but Finch isn't the one to blame here. He's incredibly busy and there's a whole council lol
 
The meta doesn’t feel very match fishy to me, there are some teamstyles where I’ll note to myself “this could be quite difficult..” but not more match dependant than usual. But I must say that Wellspring is still quite troublesome to me due to how hard it is to defensively answer, so I’m hoping for a survey sometime in the future that will include it.
 
Does the meta feel more match up fishy than a few months ago to anyone? I feel like loading up any team I just have accept there are going to be quite a few matches that are auto losses at preview.
Kind of a mixed bag. I'd say there are a few new cheesy archetypes like TR and Veil that are decent right now, but other offensive styles like Webs aren't as common (not that its fallen off, just that it doesn't see much use). Bulky Offense does seem like the best archetype still & there appears to be more experimentation with most of the old OU favorites like Rillaboom, Torn-T, Heatran, etc. I think what I've been interested by is the amount of experimentation on mons that have been "solved" like Ting-Lu, since we are seeing sets like Fast Taunt re-appear, Sand Tomb + Ruination do some damage, etc.

I think the MU fishyness does pop a bit when using some of these UU-turned-OU mons like Torn-T, Heatran, etc. since there are a few notable MUs they struggle against which most of these teams kinda don't really account for, but I think that will be optimized over time. And of course, veil / TR expirementing with new options is annoying asw. I was using Ursaluna under veil and it was crazy how quickly it devoured a lot of the stall / balance teams I saw while also being unkillable.
 
Has anyone been trialing variations of rillaboom that aren’t just band or terrain extender?

I’ve brought back an older set from a different meta and it’s working really well.. mostly due to x2 resists not being enough for dealing with hammer spam.

Example replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454344732-v96rv96go5pchc9ndlpkhq7yvr6338npw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454371125

The set:

Rillaboom @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Swords Dance
- Drain punch / knock off / other filler move

The filler can be anything really, drain punch is for end game scenarios/healing and kingambit, knock off sounds good on paper but limited in practice (you lose to most x4 resists even with it, whilst hammer is good against x2 resists) unless this rilla is likely to come out and stay out early. You can also use taunt, u turn, etc.. basically Rillaboom will never beat its best checks, no matter what you run. That dragonite, speedy pecharunt or zapdos isn’t going to struggle switching in.

Here’s a list of what’s slower and OHKOd at +2 and with Tera grass wood hammer, ranked by usage. You can assume defensive sets unless noted otherwise. Often Tera grass isn’t needed with even the slightest chip or non-max def sets.

- [offensive] gambit
- gholdengo
- slowking-g
- [offensive] raging bolt
- Tera for most defensive mobs

Faster threats can often be taken out with grassy glide. Most of the problematic ones like Kyurem, dragapult or cinderace can be KOd from around 60-85% reliably (Kyurem needs to be offensive) Neutral slower threats like Gliscor often don’t need a +2 for the OHKO.
 
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Has anyone been trialing variations of rillaboom that aren’t just band or terrain extender?

I’ve brought back an older set from a different meta and it’s working really well.. mostly due to x2 resists not being enough for dealing with hammer spam.

Example replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454344732-v96rv96go5pchc9ndlpkhq7yvr6338npw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454371125

The set:

Rillaboom @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Swords Dance
- Drain punch / knock off / other filler move

The filler can be anything really, drain punch is for end game scenarios/healing and kingambit, knock off sounds good on paper but limited in practice (you lose to most x4 resists even with it, whilst hammer is good against x2 resists) unless this rilla is likely to come out and stay out early. You can also use taunt, u turn, etc.. basically Rillaboom will never beat its best checks, no matter what you run. That dragonite, speedy pecharunt or zapdos isn’t going to struggle switching in.

Here’s a list of what’s slower and OHKOd at +2 and with Tera grass wood hammer, ranked by usage. You can assume defensive sets unless noted otherwise. Often Tera grass isn’t needed with even the slightest chip or non-max def sets.

- [offensive] gambit
- gholdengo
- slowking-g
- [offensive] raging bolt
- Tera for most defensive mobs

Faster threats can often be taken out with grassy glide. Most of the problematic ones like Kyurem, dragapult or cinderace can be KOd from around 60-85% reliably (Kyurem needs to be offensive) Neutral slower threats like Gliscor often don’t need a +2 for the OHKO.
SD with LO has been rising in popularity recently, same with boots 4A. Miracle seed is an interesting alternative to LO but boosting the coverage slots too is really nice and terrain offsets some LO recoil. Do with that what you will. Happy laddering!
 
Has anyone been trialing variations of rillaboom that aren’t just band or terrain extender?

I’ve brought back an older set from a different meta and it’s working really well.. mostly due to x2 resists not being enough for dealing with hammer spam.

Example replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454344732-v96rv96go5pchc9ndlpkhq7yvr6338npw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454371125

The set:

Rillaboom @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Swords Dance
- Drain punch / knock off / other filler move

The filler can be anything really, drain punch is for end game scenarios/healing and kingambit, knock off sounds good on paper but limited in practice (you lose to most x4 resists even with it, whilst hammer is good against x2 resists) unless this rilla is likely to come out and stay out early. You can also use taunt, u turn, etc.. basically Rillaboom will never beat its best checks, no matter what you run. That dragonite, speedy pecharunt or zapdos isn’t going to struggle switching in.

Here’s a list of what’s slower and OHKOd at +2 and with Tera grass wood hammer, ranked by usage. You can assume defensive sets unless noted otherwise. Often Tera grass isn’t needed with even the slightest chip or non-max def sets.

- [offensive] gambit
- gholdengo
- slowking-g
- [offensive] raging bolt
- Tera for most defensive mobs

Faster threats can often be taken out with grassy glide. Most of the problematic ones like Kyurem, dragapult or cinderace can be KOd from around 60-85% reliably (Kyurem needs to be offensive) Neutral slower threats like Gliscor often don’t need a +2 for the OHKO.
I ran AV for a bit. Works as an ok prim / Woger check, but it had some breaking / progress making issues against mons like Moltres, Gambit, etc (particularly bad since my Rocker doesnt beat Moltres). Swapped it for Pads Meow (lures Gambit easy with Low Kick and beats both Zapdos and Moltres with Knock Off -> Rocks + Axel on ths swap). Also helps against Regen mons a bit better.
 
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Has anyone been trialing variations of rillaboom that aren’t just band or terrain extender?

I’ve brought back an older set from a different meta and it’s working really well.. mostly due to x2 resists not being enough for dealing with hammer spam.

Example replay:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454344732-v96rv96go5pchc9ndlpkhq7yvr6338npw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454371125

The set:

Rillaboom @ Miracle Seed
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Swords Dance
- Drain punch / knock off / other filler move

The filler can be anything really, drain punch is for end game scenarios/healing and kingambit, knock off sounds good on paper but limited in practice (you lose to most x4 resists even with it, whilst hammer is good against x2 resists) unless th

is rilla is likely to come out and stay out early. You can also use taunt, u turn, etc.. basically Rillaboom will never beat its best checks, no matter what you run. That dragonite, speedy pecharunt or zapdos isn’t going to struggle switching in.

Here’s a list of what’s slower and OHKOd at +2 and with Tera grass wood hammer, ranked by usage. You can assume defensive sets unless noted otherwise. Often Tera grass isn’t needed with even the slightest chip or non-max def sets.

- [offensive] gambit
- gholdengo
- slowking-g
- [offensive] raging bolt
- Tera for most defensive mobs

Faster threats can often be taken out with grassy glide. Most of the problematic ones like Kyurem, dragapult or cinderace can be KOd from around 60-85% reliably (Kyurem needs to be offensive) Neutral slower threats like Gliscor often don’t need a +2 for the OHKO.
This set looks pretty good, some stuff you need to get worn down but far from unmanagable, I've been trying the bulky SD set from gen 8 a bit lately:

Rillaboom @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off
- High Horsepower

I originally thought this set was unviable since post nerf grassy glide is hard to justify as your only stab, but tbh in testing it actually did quite well. Switches into waterpon suprising well and is a solid win condition, especially aganist many offenses.
 
I’ve been finding a lot of these Rilla teams a bit difficult to built tbh. Molt, Zap, and Kyu give me a lot of problems with these builds.
I cannot recommend enough the starting 3 of Heatran, Rilla, and Woger (with glide if you want and if Rilla has terrain extender). Coincidentally, I started using these 3 together shortly before someone took these 3 alongside a specs tblast fairy Pult, Zong, and spin + 3A boots Tusk to #5 on ladder—it’s a great team that I feel has stood up well to meta changes since its posting (RMT here), though I prefer building around the 3 with rocks on my Heatran. The synergy centers primarily around Heatran: you put up rocks while not allowing in Tusk or Treads, who are very afraid of Magma Storm or Lava Plume, and even coming in directly on Corv or Geez and putting rocks back up. Glowking cannot scout you if you’re Magma Storm, and Ting Lu will get chipped by Magma Storm or potentially burned by Lava Plume. There is only a small handful of mons that take on Magma Storm (my preferred fire STAB despite the miss chance) with relative ease, mainly Mola and Moltres; Woger comes in freely on trapped Mola which cannot double out, and Moltres is a likely candidate for switching into Rillaboom which allows you to knock it (while having a second priority abuser if Woger is glide, so burn isn’t a death sentence to your ability to revenge kill), while Heatran keeps rocks up with ease. Rilla and Woger both check strong Water and Ground attacks for Heatran, and their priority shores up offense matchups, while Heatran and Woger are both very difficult to wall. Rilla provides both with terrain recovery and allows even offensive Heatran to take an EQ from Treads (75% of the time), Ting Lu, or unboosted Dragonite from full.

The main trouble matchups for these three are Kyurem, Dnite (esp tera flying), Zapdos, Ceruledge with CC, Glimmora, Raging Bolt, Blaziken, HJK Cinderace, and banded Pult. Which is a lot of mons, but of course it is because we’re looking at 3 mons right now. The cheatsheet for finishing out this starting 3 into a team is bulky ground + Kyurem counter + speed control; the given RMT uses Tusk, Zong, and Pult respectively in these 3 slots, and while Zapdos and Raging Bolt can both trouble Tusk, Zong, Heatran, specs Pult, and double priority shore up these matchups well enough.
 
Here’s a really good demo of rillabooms place in the meta as a wall breaker. I think wood hammer is just really good right now. Personally not a life orb fan because the extra 10% power for grassy glide and hammer isn’t as important as preserving health against hazards. Miracle seed has just enough of a boost.

Here it [eventually] breaks through an x4 resist with future sight support, the first 60 turns are just fluff so you can skip through them.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2454885392-7dxp7ia7gc7h3xkl9xrcx1y984ukfkbpw

-

I’d argue best teammates for Rillaboom right now are actually Glowking and others that can pressure it’s switchins.
 
I haven't used darkrai but 135 Sp.Atk is really good, especially with Dark, Ghost, Poison, and Ice coverage? I don't think anything can effectively wall it. Slap a life orb on and watch the carnage unfold...
Or would Specs be better?
I don't have enough experience.

Darkrai @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Level: 100
Timid Nature
Tera Type: Poison / Ghost
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball

Seems pretty good to me.

EDIT: Not wall, nothing resists that combination of types (I don't think)
Yeah shadow ball is not good, you need focus blast or you get obliterated by gambit. Also I don't agree with Tera ghost so go Tera poison or Tera dark if you want more damage. If you go with specs drop a move for trick. Only drop focus blast if your team has other counters to gambit. I like life orb more but that's a personal preference and make sure your team has good hazard removal.
 
I remember being interested in Gyarados and then deciding Pelipper is just outright better. Don't need a rain team or anything, just switch in on the stuff it checks, then u-turn to Waterpon. Although I liked sliding in weather ball Raging Bolt too.

Weather Ball/Hurricane/Roost/U-Turn.
Heavy Duty Boots
Defense + HP EV's
 
Today I've got some neat tools that i've been using for the past week or so.

Heatran @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Dragon/Grass/Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume / Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp / Taunt

Rocky Helmet Heatran is a set that Ive been thinking of using for a while. Normally I would just use Moltres but Heatran has some neat techs that help it serve a niche. Rocks for one is huge, with the role compression being really neat to have. Helmet is used here since unlike Moltres Heatran can actually take rocks chip at least for a bit. It really punishes U-turns, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, and still checks Weavile Scizor and Kingambit. Magma + taunt is still decent but I was having more success with Lava Plume + Wisp, since it guarantees the burn.

https://pokepast.es/f55622bfee8f2c3e
this was the team I used to get to 1830s.
 
Gambit is as cancerous as ever

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2456808965-7fw7hogob2kkd2ymak2ula4e30nbr17pw

This cockroach basically prolonged the game and could have reverse swept at any point, if it got the 50/50 right (post iron head flinch it was primed to steal the game). Hate this mon more than anything else in OU, and surprised it’s still going strong centralizing the meta as it always did.

Literally carried defensively and offensively with a very simple leftovers set.

The TL:DW is basically that gambit almost stole it (and imo should have). It carried hard all the way from 6v6 to 5v2 before the strong swing back.

My guess is people are going to say “fighting types are basically mandatory now, like ground types are”

GF logic: grassy glide is too strong for conditional priority, lets nerf it down to 55 power and terrain should boost 30% max. Sucker punch is too strong for conditional priority, lets give it to a pokemon with excellent typing and stat spread, and slap on an ability to make it 50% stronger!
 
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Gambit is as cancerous as ever

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2456808965-7fw7hogob2kkd2ymak2ula4e30nbr17pw

This cockroach basically prolonged the game and could have reverse swept at any point, if it got the 50/50 right (post iron head flinch it was primed to steal the game). Hate this mon more than anything else in OU, and surprised it’s still going strong centralizing the meta as it always did.

Literally carried defensively and offensively with a very simple leftovers set.

The TL:DW is basically that gambit almost stole it (and imo should have). It carried hard all the way from 6v6 to 5v2 before the strong swing back.

My guess is people are going to say “fighting types are basically mandatory now, like ground types are”

GF logic: grassy glide is too strong for conditional priority, lets nerf it down to 55 power and terrain should boost 30% max. Sucker punch is too strong for conditional priority, lets give it to a pokemon with excellent typing and stat spread, and slap on an ability to make it 50% stronger!
Yeah, Gambit feels a lot crazier rn IMO, reaching that 2023 dominance I feel. I expected Roaring Moon ban to hurt it more because it was Gambit's best tango partner at breaking its checks, but Moon was also one of the better mons at forcing various Gambit variants in earlier and forcing it to take damage or putting it out of commission. Moon was also ironically one of the best breakers of the Dark-spam cores Gambit found it self on. Since Moon has been banned, I've mostly just been pairing Kingambit with other Dark-types & they are all still great at forcing its checks in earlier and weakening them so our favorite chess piece can sweep later. You can run more boring picks like Darkrai and Samurott-H and be just fine, but I've really like pairing Gambit with underrated Darks like Iron Jugulis and Meowscarada, which can open Gambit up in more interesting ways (and are generally cooler to use than standard shit lol).

I'd say part of the reason Gambit feels better is that most of them are running the bulky lefovers set which is by far the most dangerous because that set is able to grab SD's the easiest and really excentuates the 50/50s with additional Leftovers recovery (and puts it out of some key KO ranges with the additional bulk). That said, most of Gambit's sets are all pretty strong like SD Tera Fighting Low Kick with Lum, Tera Blast Fairy, etc. I also think players running teams with a bit less sturdy of a defensive core (like these Torn-T x Treads teams) also results in Gambit's performance seeing an improvement since it steamrolls most of these teams pretty heavily.

IDK, I kinda don't mind Kingambit as much as the DDers still since you can outplay Sucker Punches. most of its checks are just generally good Pokemon like Great Tusk, Landorus-T, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, Corv, Encore Dragonite, etc. and the Pokemon itself has a lot of annoying lures due to its prominence which I think is a healthy development (something like Colbur Berry Focus Blast Gholdengo for example, which has applications in other Match-ups, Low Kick Meowscarada - which I still see most Gambit's fall for & also is a good move on Meow in general since its doing 80+% to Kyurem and Treads, Focus Blast Darkrai, etc). I also just appreciate its strong priority and defensive typing for a lot of the various cheesers we see like Latias, different TR styles, etc.
 
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Yeah, Gambit feels a lot crazier rn IMO, reaching that 2023 dominance I feel. I expected Roaring Moon ban to hurt it more because it was Gambit's best tango partner at breaking its checks, but Moon was also one of the better mons at forcing various Gambit variants in earlier and forcing it to take damage or putting it out of commission. Moon was also ironically one of the best breakers of the Dark-spam cores Gambit found it self on. Since Moon has been banned, I've mostly just been pairing Kingambit with other Dark-types & they are all still great at forcing its checks in earlier and weakening them so our favorite chess piece can sweep later. You can run more boring picks like Darkrai and Samurott-H and be just fine, but I've really like pairing Gambit with underrated Darks like Iron Jugulis and Meowscarada, which can open Gambit up in more interesting ways (and are generally cooler to use than standard shit lol).

I'd say part of the reason Gambit feels better is that most of them are running the bulky lefovers set which is by far the most dangerous because that set is able to grab SD's the easiest and really excentuates the 50/50s with additional Leftovers recovery (and puts it out of some key KO ranges with the additional bulk). I think players running teams with a bit less sturdy of a defensive core (like these Torn-T x Treads teams) also results in Gambit's performance seeing an improvement since it steamrolls most of these teams pretty heavily. That said, most of Gambit's sets are all pretty strong like SD Tera Fighting Low Kick with Lum, Tera Blast Fairy, etc.

IDK, I kinda don't mind Kingambit as much as the DDers still since you can outplay Sucker Punches. most of its checks are just generally good Pokemon like Great Tusk, Landorus-T, Raging Bolt, Zamazenta, Corv, Encore Dragonite, etc. and the Pokemon itself has a lot of annoying lures due to its prominence which I think is a healthy development (something like Colbur Berry Focus Blast Gholdengo for example, which has applications in other Match-ups, Low Kick Meowscarada - which I still see most Gambit's fall for & also is a good move on Meow in general since its doing 80+% to Kyurem and Treads, Focus Blast Darkrai, etc). I also just appreciate its strong priority and defensive typing for a lot of the various cheesers we see like Latias, different TR styles, etc.
Nothing new, but I really like Gambit+(Darkrai/Weavile/Meowscarada)+ Zap as a core. Zap+Rai/Weavile/Meow can chip away at Ting, Corv, Zama, or any other Gambit checks with ice and electric coverage. There’s a lot of flexibility between going full offensive with both or using wisp/t-wave/trick to muddy things before Gambit comes in.
 
Tiering survey coming in a few days probably, definitely within this week

Also made a metagame post on some SCL trends here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-champions-league-v-ou-discussion.3770462/#post-10714124
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