Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

rinagram said:
I.] Inherently Broken Nature
- is only viable on 50% of mons that use it, rather than a majority

II.] Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users
- see above, only banned due to mons with passive healing abilities

III.] No Plausible Scenario for Balance
- sceptile and smeargle are fake

Due to meeting none of the current criteria, I move that we unban Shed Tail.

I think it's easy enough to see how tiering policy is constantly bent in some ways in order to maintain a healthy metagame. Why should Tera Blast be any different in discussion? The framework for tiering is just that- a framework. Not an end-all be-all, and for good reason.

To shut down discussion due to not meeting a literal reading of the policy is a poor choice. I'm not your mother, I don't want to lecture people on healthy debate.
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Shed Tail was broken on 2 of 2 users of the move when it was banned. Last Respects was broken on every fully evolved user when it was banned. Arena Trap was broken on every fully evolved user and Diglett when it was banned. Same with Shadow Tag. You can find other non-Pokemon elements as well. Some straddle the line to uncompetitive, but that’s a whole other discussion.

You not knowing the history of Shed Tail or blindly assuming it would be balanced on other Pokemon is not my problem. You moving the goalposts most certainly isn’t either.

As I have said repeatedly in a public sphere, I was not even allowed to have a Tera Blast discussion in PR without including the section on parameters of tiering framework we are discussing. I fought for the discussion to happen for months to begin with — I spend dozens of hours behind the scenes making that discussion happen despite bad survey numbers and little council support. Then, it happened and there was very far from a clear majority with most arguments ignoring tiering logic altogether. Sometimes you just have to accept it for what it is rather than trying to paint volunteers in bad faith.
 
RoyalDispenser said:
What makes tera blast a positive addition to the tier?
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It adds a whole layer of skill and risk assessment to gameplay and teambuilding. This is similar to the premise of Tera as a whole. Implying it’s wholly negative just shows you’re either not engaging with the metagame fully or looking at it with an already predetermined agenda.

Tera Blast gives you totally different ways to make structures work or fit counterplay on. You can say that losing Zamazenta to Tera Blast Fairy from Dragonite or Kingambit is unfair, but it’s just as easy to say that I evaluated my resources and determined it was worth blowing my Tera on that. Now you are out a Zamazenta, I am out a Tera, and you can take advantage of that while I take advantage of the lack of a Zamazenta.

This trade-off runs parallel to so many other parts of the game and other, non-TB applications of Tera or even non-Tera applications of move or item choices. You can see certain berries or choice items or niche moves flipping matchups as well at the expensive of other resources.

Tera Blast may be disproportionate in how extreme this trade-off as at times, but that’s why we ban the Pokemon that highlight this abuse too well — it’s a small handful of Pokemon, not even making up 3 or 5% of total users.

To say there is no skill or competitive merit to Tera Blast is crazy to me. It’s the same premise as Tera as a whole and a similar concept to risk-reward that is applied to virtually every other creative avenue in this game. Playerbase expression is at an all time high and that’s what makes this generation so appealing after all.
 
Finchinator said:
Shed Tail was broken on 2 of 2 users of the move when it was banned. Last Respects was broken on every fully evolved user when it was banned. Arena Trap was broken on every fully evolved user and Diglett when it was banned. Same with Shadow Tag. You can find other non-Pokemon elements as well. Some straddle the line to uncompetitive, but that’s a whole other discussion.

You not knowing the history of Shed Tail or blindly assuming it would be balanced on other Pokemon is not my problem. You moving the goalposts most certainly isn’t either.
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This just misses rinagram's whole point though? No matter how much Shed Tail met the ban requirements at the time of the ban, currently it very much does not meet the requirements (or if it does you haven't pointed out any refutations to rinagram's points to how it doesn't), and if it no longer meets the requirements for a ban, then how can we justify Shed Tail being banned while still keeping a dogmatic adherence to policy? To be clear I'm not advocating for a Shed Tail unban (and I doubt rinagram was either), but the point is that we already have bans that are in place that do not adhere completely to tiering policy, and we can see how they do improve the metagame, so shutting down discussion of any future bans that may not completely align with tiering policy feels odd.
 
duckycrater said:
This just misses rinagram's whole point though? No matter how much Shed Tail met the ban requirements at the time of the ban, currently it very much does not meet the requirements (or if it does you haven't pointed out any refutations to rinagram's points to how it doesn't), and if it no longer meets the requirements for a ban, then how can we justify Shed Tail being banned while still keeping a dogmatic adherence to policy?
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When Shed Tail was banned, both users of it were broken. There is no debate here I hope. People were mad it didn’t happen sooner even, which in hindsight I respect and kind of agree with.

Shed Tail now has multiple more fully evolved users, yes, but it was already banned. In the same vein, DLC and Home released innumerable more Pokemon, moves, items, combinations, etc. — we cannot re-litigate every single ban. Shed Tail was unanimous. Nobody arguing in good faith wants us to use a month of the tiering calendar to re-test it, which causes the ladder metagame to be different than the official one and people to play with this awful move once more + potentially re-ban two Pokemon (Orthworm and Cyclizar) if it’s somehow not broken on the others.

It is up to council judgement to determine when to re-test things seeing as it is impossible to re-test every single Pokemon or move or ability after every release. We clearly did not want it to be re-tested.

There is no good faith equivalency for Shed Tail and Tera Blast. This is a non-starter.
 
wow! what a fantastic discussion that should have been had somewhere else. now let's go back to talking about uh

skeledirge! yeah. let's talk about that. i've been seeing it a bit more on ladder recently and i wanted to know what y'all think of it. does it have ou potential? any sets floating around that have yet to be discovered?
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
skeledirge! yeah. let's talk about that.
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I don't know if I like Skeledirge or not, honestly.

It fits on VERY specific structures and even on those structures I sometimes have a hard time justifying it. Dirge is a bit of a Tera hog at times (Fire/Ghost is great, but when it's not great it's really not great) and sometimes I wish I was running PhysDef some games and SpDef other games, because it can really only do one or the other super well. It's also absolute dogwater into these trendy Heatran squads.

That said, I like that it's not passive in the slightest. Torch Song is a wild move, Skeledirge in general forces Rillaboom to think carefully about what it clicks (although Dirge HATES Knock), and it does have an unexplored movepool with some tech like Scorching Sands that I think could be utilized if Heatran continues to be a staple.

It's got potential. You'll never hear me call Skeledirge bad, and I don't think anyone else that plays the tier thinks Dirge is actually bad (it's B- on the VR for a reason; it's specific, but it's good at that specific thing it does), but it can be a proper nightmare to build with. But even in that vein, it's also sometimes a nightmare to see pop up since there are those occasions where you're just getting your ass completely walled by a crocodile that proceeds to start snowballing out of control. There are some trends that do and don't work for it right now, so one or two metagame shifts and it could very well bounce back.
 
duckycrater said:
This just misses rinagram's whole point though? No matter how much Shed Tail met the ban requirements at the time of the ban, currently it very much does not meet the requirements (or if it does you haven't pointed out any refutations to rinagram's points to how it doesn't), and if it no longer meets the requirements for a ban, then how can we justify Shed Tail being banned while still keeping a dogmatic adherence to policy? To be clear I'm not advocating for a Shed Tail unban (and I doubt rinagram was either), but the point is that we already have bans that are in place that do not adhere completely to tiering policy, and we can see how they do improve the metagame, so shutting down discussion of any future bans that may not completely align with tiering policy feels odd.
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Shed tail is not a fundamental component of gen 9 competitive pokemon, but tera blast is. Tera Blast is part of Tera, the gimmick that defines this generation. Shed Tail is a gimmick used by a few pokemon with big tails which has been proven to be broken in singles.

Shed Tail in my opinion enabled cheese in a toxic, uncompetitive, and frankly disgusting manner. Tera Blast is a coverage move that's basically a stronger Hidden Power. The way the two moves work is fundamentally different, and the ban side failed to provide enough evidence that it's broken, so based on this it looks like the council has decided it's gonna stay in SV OU while cg.

Also, Tera Blast goes well with setup sweepers, and in SV, people are trembling when they hear the words Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, or Shell Smash. But imo you need to prove tera blast is broken in multiple other scenarios.
 
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I wasn't going to look at this thread much more but I got shown this and had to respond:
Finchinator said:
You not knowing the history of Shed Tail or blindly assuming it would be balanced on other Pokemon is not my problem. You moving the goalposts most certainly isn’t either.
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I made a point of finding the dumbest possible strawman here. I assumed it would be fairly obvious that my point is not to unban Shed Tail, given that it's a ridiculous proposition.

The status quo is to avoid banning moves except in special circumstances like listed above. And yet Shed Tail remained banned moving into DLC2 despite no longer fulfilling the requirements needed. The reason for this is because the majority of the qualified playerbase [and frankly, the majority of the remainder] see it for what it is: an uncompetitive mess that enables already strong pokemon to have free switchins and block status. It's a rich get richer type of move, so it doesn't provide any real flavor to the meta either. It was a sensible decision to leave it banned despite the circumstances surrounding it changing drastically. Would it be broken on Sceptile and Smeargle? Who cares?

My point is that an exact reading of the framework isn't helpful to anyone. This is, frankly, the generation of exceptions. Time after time I see SCL, OLT, WCoP players going to the groupchats after matches to say "Ough, that Dragonite" or "Ough, that Kingambit" or "Ough, that Moon" or "Ough, that Kyurem" or... you get the idea. I've seen this across the entire generation, as I'm sure many have. The fact of the matter is that so many pokemon have been banned for Tera Blast that it feels like no matter how many of its abusers you ban, one more will simply come around the corner.

I don't think Tera Blast is broken. I don't! However, you begin to question how healthy it is to have people build teams around their TB user to go all in on that one mon using tera the more that time goes on. And to be blunt it feels even worse to be on the recieving end of some random TB Ice Moth during an important match. It's an overblown form of matchup fishing at worst, and at best, a rich get richer situation allowing some of the already strongest mons in the tier to have extra coverage.

I agree that the concept of competitiveness or meta health is entirely subjective. But I feel that it remains an incredibly important component of balance discussion. The tiering framework is intentionally vague to leave room to bend it as needed. The only people "moving the goalposts" are the ones pretending that the tiering framework must be followed to the letter when it comes down to grey-area discussion like this.

So the real question is what the point is in shutting this type of ban discussion down, given that both "[un]healthy" and "broken" are equally subjective words.
 
I feel like people have either forgot or not been a part of past metas seeing certain posts. Like Arena Trap was handled in a murky or inconsistent fashion? Do people not remember how Duggy got banned in Gen7 because it trapped things, then Diglett basically replaced it and those teams were still a menace and even Trapinch put in work since it could actually tank things like offensive Heatran Magma Storm after rocks and kill it even if it was a slower and worse Diglett because that wasn't banned at the time. Literally all users of Arena Trap that have ever existed put in work, and the fact that we banned Dugtrio first just makes me annoyed that some people view it being handled in a murky fashion. Of course you could be considering Gen9 but like I don't think it changes anything, in fact Arena Trap would have been even more of a menace due to Tera allowing you to change type and trap even more.

Shed Tail was the sole factor in Orthworm and Cyclizar's viability, see how fast they dropped out of OU, the move itself is clearly an issue for the reasons already stated and a move not being broken on Smeargle is like, whatever lmao. Not sure anyone is ever gonna argue a move is fine because Smeargle gets it and is fine or we'd never be banning moves (and by this logic Pro-Tera Banners, Tera Blast isn't broken because Smeargle gets it). Sure Sceptile gets it but even if it was fine with the move the majority of its users would still be broken and given the inherently unhealthy nature of the move in general, this is why no-one is fighting to unban the move.

Tera Blast is fine on more mons then it's not fine on, and I'm talking the mons that use it frequently, not ones like Dondozo or something. I don't agree with the framework being intentionally vague because then its not doing its job well and that's how we get moving goalposts imo. I'm not really hearing anything that screams TB itself is a problem mor than the specific users that action should be taken against. But it doesn't seem like anything will happen unless there's really strong support with the very recent survey, so guess we'll wait and see.
 
JackRG said:
\

Done :blobthumbsup:

Suprised to not see Ghold on the survey, feel like a lot of people have been complaining about it recently. Also Walking Wake? I haven't played the tier that much recently, has there been any developments with it?

Also why is Moon on the survey lmao, nothing has changed
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Gholdengo will probably never be on a survey again. It has had 0 traction for a ban anywhere aside from a small portion of people on Smogon's forum and the Stallcord.

I know you believe Roaring Moon is hideously broken, as do I, but there's no need to include the "lmao" as that's getting you in trouble with infractions 'cause of the tone of your posts. Need to chill out a bit if you don't want to get banned.
 
Survey time wooo

Metagame Enjoyment/Balance/etc: 6 (maybe like 6.5ish?)
I don't think the tier is in a terrible state let alone unplayable, far from it. It's leaps and bounds better than many past iterations of the tier. That being said, I think there is an oversaturation of high grade threats to prepare for, many of which packing high versatility which complicates matters. There are specific Pokemon I think are especially guilty of being tall asks in the builder to prepare for, or just exert so much pressure and are incredibly strong in game anyways, which for me does lead to frustration at times. Some specific Pokemon are especially standout in this regard.

:Dragonite: 4
I think it's time we seriously address this Pokemon. Dragonite may be seen as a "Superglue" for a huge amount of teams, but at the same time it continues to reinvent itself with a seemingly infinite pantheon of set possibilities, making preparing for it a nightmare at best. Right now it's the poster child for Tera Blast abuse, and its ability to mix and match movesets, Tera types and items gives it unpredictability that isn't matched by anything in the tier. and it's so regularly pulling off nonsense. What positives it does bring, to me are outweighed by the major strain it puts on the builder and the battle, and its ability to handpick what beats it on a whim isn't desirable for the tier going forwards.

:Kingambit: 3 (more of a 3.5 but can't pick that)
I've been growing less fond of this Pokemon as of late, as despite its relatively straight forward approach and comparatively lower versatility (next to monsters like Dragonite anyways), it manages to still win games that seem hopeless. It's not that it's hard to prepare for, it isn't. But even teams that are well prepared for this mon on preview have been shown to be capable of losing to it. And I question if that really is balanced or healthy in reality.4

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: 3 (also more of a 3.5)
I'm pretty vocal about not liking this mon's impact on the builder, I don't think I ever will like it. It's just lower in the priority for me right now as other stuff I think are more problematic. The offensive shifts in the meta also don't do it many favors so it comes off less crazy.

:Kyurem: 4
This is another mon that just always puts in work and lately it has felt more wild despite not even changing too much, other than use of sets like AV and moves like Body Press for some specific targets. Prep for this isn't impossible or extremely awful, but it does ask a lot, and much like Gambit I find that even pretty prepared teams can have problems against it, and it has felt really strong lately.

:Walking-Wake: 2
I'm actually really confused why this is here, and I admit I could have missed someone fill me in on this? It is still frightening under Sun, but has something changed?

:Gliscor: 2
I think it's just not a problem atm. Strong but there's enough tools to handle it and I don't think it's too restricting to prepare for.

:Roaring-Moon:
So I answered quickly and actually forget what I said for this but I think (and hope) I remembered to score it in range of "no don't touch this mon". I'm also really perplexed why this is on the survey. It was banned fairly and cleanly a while ago (the second time this gen), and I really don't see what if anything has changed to make it any less frustrating. And it doesn't bring anything of value to the tier, especially when there is already a long list of threats to prepare for as is.
 
Dragonite: 3
Kingambit: 1
Ogerpon-W: 3
Kyurem: 2
Walking Wake: 2
Gliscor: 3
Roaring Moon retest: 3

Write-ins: Tera Blast, Stored Power, Terapagos-Terastal Form (Stellar Form banned)

I only gave Dragonite / Ogerpon-W a 3 because, while I don't believe they should be banned, there are enough complaints from others that maybe a test or something is warranted.

#neverbangambit2025

I gave Roaring Moon a 3 because I am still on the fence on whether the post moon ban meta is better than pre-ban meta. I don't really like a lot of the new cheesers that rose up in its place, but I also hated moon so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Don't care about the outcome on it that much.

IDK why Wake is on the survey but it is kinda an annoying bottleneck on building. Still, sun is fishy and its manageable with good play so idc too much.
 
How much do you enjoy SV OU right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)? 8 -- I am having fun playing and building in the metagame regularly. I do not feel a pressing need to ban anything, but am openminded. It definitely takes a lot of reps and a decent amount of building attempts to increase your form, but I love the grind and I find it to be very rewarding. I think that everything has solutions, but sometimes you need to get creative or think outside the box to cover all that you wish to. I enjoy this dynamic, but I recognize it can be exhausting to some people.

How competitive do you find SV OU to be right now (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)? 8 -- I think that there is still room to improve over time, but this is close to the best it has been in 2025 and perhaps all generation. Most of my answer to last question is mirrored in this. Dragonite can be a pain and Kyurem offers nasty upside, but we can abuse their flaws and make the most of opportunity cost. Definitely think arguments can be made on Dragonite being lame, Kyurem being nasty, Wellspring being limiting, or Kingambit still being a pain to contain, but nothing stands out as clearly broken to me.

How do you feel about Dragonite? 3 -- The most conventionally broken Pokemon in the tier, but I do think we have seen some slight shifts in terms of the uptick in Rotom-W, sudden sightings of Mandibuzz, resurgance of Tera Dark Foul Play Pech, etc. in terms of counterplay to most sets (Tera Fairy Blast does ding a couple of these though, but I find that set a lot easier to trade with than Tera Flying at least). Another thing is I think that cornering Dragonite teams that rely on it to Tera (Blast) has become easier now that awareness has risen. Obviously there are still some absurd games and it is not something we can dismiss, but I do not think it is an immediate suspect or ban for me. 3 feels most fair.

How do you feel about Kingambit? 3 -- Feels like it is perpetually a 3. Can be a dumb Pokemon with crazy game-ending potential, but it is not really pressed for checks/counters, it is possible to trade Teras with, and I do not think it puts a strain on teambuilding like Wellspring or Kyurem at all. Would be ok with another suspect, but do not personally support it. Closer to 2 than I used to be.

How do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? 2 -- Meh, I was definitely a 3-4 earlier in the year and I still think Ogerpon-Wellspring is a top Pokemon. I just do not think it is broken. I find offense capable of stifling it in the short term or limiting it to only so much damage in the long term while other styles have gotten creative in checking it. We see more teams with 2-3 faster Pokemon than just 1 with the uptick in Tornadus-T and utility Cinderace, Pech is in a great spot while running Foul Play more often again to help combat even SD Ogerpon-Wellspring, and other Grass types are in a pretty good spot with Rillaboom peaking, Amoonguss creeping back into relevancy, and Sinistcha doing well enough for itself. I am pretty close to a 3 still and get why some people feel counterplay is too thin though.

How do you feel about Kyurem? 2 -- I feel like Kyurem can be argued to be broken when you consider the crazy disparity in sets, but I think that you can find out a lot of information quickly, stifle most sets with offense, and certainly fit enough counterplay to at least find a decent path when using other styles. My fear factor here is running into the worst set at the worst time snowballing out of control, especially when facing DD or Substitute sets, but I guess I have adapted or maybe the tier has as I see fewer of these games than ever. I keep a close eye on Kyurem on Veil or Screens since this is the most obnoxious thing ever honestly, but to me it feels similar to its level the last year+ and that has not been quite enough to be actionable.

How do you feel about Walking Wake? 2 -- I wanted it included if you wish to ask. I find Wake on Sun to be obnoxious for offense. Primarina is cool, GKing can help, Water Garganacl or blobs can do the trick on balance, etc., but it can be really problematic for offense and I think Sun/Wake should remain on our radar. Do not support a suspect now and may never get to that point, but I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice in completely shutting it down.

How do you feel about Gliscor? 1 -- Does not feel close to banworthy right now. Maybe this changes if the pace of the tier changes, but not there right now.

How do you feel about a re-test of Roaring Moon (1 being adamantly opposed and 5 being strongly in favor)? 1 -- I still think it was broken then and not much has changed. I absolutely see the argument that some people like the tier better than and feel like more emphasis on checks to Dragonite (or even Kyurem) woulds happen if Roaring Moon is reintroduced, but I think the combination of brute force breaking with Booster Energy Knock Off (or even Taunt variants on top of this) with the sweeping prospects is too much for the metagame right now. Maybe others feel differently, I dunno.
 
rinagram said:
The status quo is to avoid banning moves except in special circumstances like listed above. And yet Shed Tail remained banned moving into DLC2 despite no longer fulfilling the requirements needed.
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I don't agree with this point. You are really trying to make this argument that Shed Tail no longer meets the requirements needed to ban a move on the basis that only half its users are broken anymore, and I think this misses the mark. For one, if half of all Tera Blast users were broken because of their use of the move then it would have been banned on day 1. Second, I think you are much too dismissive of the Shed Tail users we never got to see. Sceptile does basically what Cyclizar does, force you to cover the sub-pass to multiple possible sweepers by outspeeding a good chunk of the meta. Yeah, Cyclizar is better because of Regenerator, but fundamentally what makes Shed Tail broken are the possibilities of Substitute and the potential for sweepers to make use of it.

The point isn't to open up discussion on whether or not Sceptile and Smeargle are broken with Shed Tail, you recognize that. The point is to illustrate that Shed Tail doesn't break Cyclizar and Orthworm because of unique traits that nothing else can compare to. If Shed Tail had, like, Substitute's distribution then tiering the move would be a constant game of whack-a-mole because basically any Pokemon with traits that allow them to function competitively would be able to leverage those traits, because Shed Tail itself is doing all of the work. Mind you, I would argue that the tiering policy as written is overly conservative on this point; if the OU council can recognize how dangerous a move can be based on its properties with two abusers then they should be able to recognize that it's the move that's the problem with only one abuser, but I will concede that this is a bit messy in the case of Shed Tail because there legitimately wasn't a consensus initially that Orthworm would be broken once Cyclizar got banned. It's true that nobody wants to deal with retesting Sceptile and Smeargle with Shed Tail now, but that's not because council hates it even while conceding it's not broken, it's because they think other things would be broken with it and the whole reason to have a council is to trust that their metagame knowledge allows them to be accurate in these judgment calls.
The reason for this is because the majority of the qualified playerbase [and frankly, the majority of the remainder] see it for what it is: an uncompetitive mess that enables already strong pokemon to have free switchins and block status. It's a rich get richer type of move, so it doesn't provide any real flavor to the meta either. It was a sensible decision to leave it banned despite the circumstances surrounding it changing drastically.
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If you go back to the tiering decision here, you'll notice that this is not correct; Shed Tail was not banned for being uncompetitive. It was banned for being broken. It put too much of a strain on the metagame to require your entire team to be able to cover multiple Shed Tail recipients on any given turn in order to not instantly lose. You are correct that competitiveness is very subjective! And that's why it, to this point, has not been the basis of any new SV OU bans so far (excluding cross-generation bans, I guess).

Anyway, I'm not even opposed to the idea that Tera Blast is broken, I said this last time. But it got zero traction last time because leng loi was the only person that tried to argue that anything that isn't potentially problematic in its own right (Dragonite, Gambit, Kyurem, mainly) was made an issue because of Tera Blast. If anybody agreed with the premise that Tera Blast Rillaboom or anything else like it was a problem for the meta, they didn't say anything during the last discussion. Which is to say, it would really be appreciated if a top player actually wants to make a post this time to argue one way or another, would be kinda great.
 
olamomalo said:
JackRG wake is the chief feels bad part of losing to sun, which is a prominent cteam choice in tournament play. Guessing that’s where it’s coming from.
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Yeah that makes sense, sun in general has always felt really fishy to me
Avira said:
but there's no need to include the "lmao" as that's getting you in trouble with infractions 'cause of the tone of your posts. Need to chill out a bit if you don't want to get banned.
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would removing lmao change the whole tone of the message? I guess I'll keep that in mind going foward
Finchinator said:
How do you feel about Ogerpon-Wellspring? 2 -- Meh, I was definitely a 3-4 earlier in the year and I still think Ogerpon-Wellspring is a top Pokemon. I just do not think it is broken. I find offense capable of stifling it in the short term or limiting it to only so much damage in the long term while other styles have gotten creative in checking it. We see more teams with 2-3 faster Pokemon than just 1 with the uptick in Tornadus-T and utility Cinderace, Pech is in a great spot while running Foul Play more often again to help combat even SD Ogerpon-Wellspring, and other Grass types are in a pretty good spot with Rillaboom peaking, Amoonguss creeping back into relevancy, and Sinistcha doing well enough for itself. I am pretty close to a 3 still and get why some people feel counterplay is too thin though.
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rilla isn't a wellspring switch when it takes like 70% from U-Turn, and takes 40% from whip (resist with 100hp/90def btw). Amoongus is ass, doesn't do anything besides kind of checking wellspring for a bit before getting overwhelmed by knock + hazards anyway. If its bulky SD foul play also doesn't kill after an SD. Sinistcha is good if its not knock but knock seems to only be getting more and more popular.

Also while I'm at it

Enjoyment: 6
Competitiveness: 3
Dragonite: 3
Kingambit: 4
Ogerpon-W: 5
Kyurem: 5
Walking Wake: 3 - I don't like mons that ignorantly get to click STAB moves for easy results, also agree its fishy as hell and can just 6-0 some teams
Gliscor: 2
Roaring Moon retest: 1

Write in: Ghold, Freeze Clause, Solgaleo Test, Lugia Test
 
JackRG said:
rilla isn't a wellspring switch when it takes like 70% from U-Turn, and takes 40% from whip (resist with 100hp/90def btw). Amoongus is ass, doesn't do anything besides kind of checking wellspring for a bit before getting overwhelmed by knock + hazards anyway. If its bulky SD foul play also doesn't kill after an SD. Sinistcha is good if its not knock but knock seems to only be getting more and more popular.
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In this paragraph alone, you mentioned: Knock, Power Whip, hazards (presumably Spikes), SD, and U-turn already. This is not to mention Ivy Cudgel, which is a staple on each set, and Play Rough, which is the most common coverage option due to the influx of Dragon types. Taunt, Trailblaze, Horn Leech, and Synthesis also see usage.

Obviously the opponent does not know what Ogeron-Wellspring is doing either, but the fact of the matter is that it cannot cover as much as many lead you on to believe. If Kyurem or Dragonite could run out all prospects in one, they would have been Ubers years ago. Wellspring is a top tier Pokemon without a doubt, but let's not pretend like it covers everything and there are not substantial trade-offs in play.
 
Finchinator said:
In this paragraph alone, you mentioned: Knock, Power Whip, hazards (presumably Spikes), SD, and U-turn already.
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I meant hazards is general, oger could be the spiker, but it could also knock the amoongus or pech or whatever to pressure them with spikes
Finchinator said:
This is not to mention Ivy Cudgel, which is a staple on each set, and Play Rough, which is the most common coverage option due to the influx of Dragon types. Taunt, Trailblaze, Horn Leech, and Synthesis also see usage.

Obviously the opponent does not know what Ogeron-Wellspring is doing either, but the fact of the matter is that it cannot cover as much as many lead you on to believe. If Kyurem or Dragonite could run out all prospects in one, they would have been Ubers years ago. Wellspring is a top tier Pokemon without a doubt, but let's not pretend like it covers everything and there are not substantial trade-offs in play.
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Play rough is nice to have but tbh, I've stopped considering it entirely outside of some HO teams that need it to instantly annihilate whats in front of it (also even HO has begun to prefer taunt) people still use it but imo it will only become less and less common as people realize the dragons don't switch into oger well anyway, and knock is much better as the coverage move of choice, dnite is getting 2hko'd with rocks once you knock its boots, bolt only switches into cudgel once. It's nice for hydrapple but now that physdef is standard and lives 2 play rough anyway, knock off + hazards feels like the more consistent way to beat it anyway. All these other options also lessen the need for coverage, since theres a lot I'll go over them 1 by 1

Taunt - you don't need coverage when you can keep checks like pech low for later

Trailblaze/horn leech - just alternatives to pwhip, trailblaze negates revenge killers on balance like dragapult, horn leech is great for longevity and is downright heinous behind veil

Synthesis - usually on bulkier teams, oger is less on a timer to immediately break its checks when it can stick around, my recent rmt is a prime showcase of this

Imo all Woger needs to be an unwallable breaker is Ivy Cudgel and Knock, the rest really just help.
 
Fun 9
I've been playing since gen IV as a hobbyist (shout out to the killer nacho for getting me into tge hobby) but this is the first time Ive taken it serious enough to play the whole generation and try to improve instead of playing around low ladder. This is the first time SV the meta has been consistently fun for me.

Competitive 7
I am unsure is it feels more competitive because I am better or because the meta is. I do feel now that when I lose it is much more because I misplay than because of matchup.

Dragonite 3 (or 4, I forget what I put)
Enough time has been given to the meta to develop and reveal this guy to be extremely versatile abd dangerous. With Tera blast being off tge table i think dragonite needs to be looked at.

Gambit 1
Only a problem because of threat saturation. Easy enough to prepare for

Wellspring 5
I think this already puts strain on the builder and more sets will continue to pop up in the future of the metagame than already exists. I think gambit only appears problematic because of hiw much Wellspring can wear down checks and nake progress. Taunt + encore+ trailblazer + sword dance +knock off + spikes + raw power = very difficult to play around, even when having a good guess if tge set.

Kyurem 5
This is the mon that still feels like a matchup fish to me. When I feel like i doht lose to misplays its usually this guy. (Ps i dont play HO and play more bulky styles so i realuze that colours my opinion). It feels like when you know fotm you can counter it but as soon as that starts switching and its a set that was popular last month it rolls me.

Walking Wake 1
I dont really play teans weak to wake so im not the most knowledgeable about it.

Gliscor 4
I think gluscor isn't broken but can be pretty uncompetitive in certain structures.

Moon 1
We don't need another mon that wears down checks to woger and gambit.

Ting Lu, malignant chain, garg write-in
I dont feel strongly myself about ting or garg but Ive heard pretty good arguments against them so wanted to lend ny support. I think malignant chain and garg aren't broken but can be uncompetitive.

Overall the meta isn't perfect to me, but does have some equilibrium to it. Personally I wanted Tera abd then Tera Blast gone, but with those staying I think the teur might be as close to balanced as it's going yo get, and it's fun for me so good enough for me personally.
 
Haven't posted here in ages but I've been lurking and felt like talking about the survey. It won't be very precise as I'm writing on my phone and don't have the best memory of my reasoning for scores, but I'll try to explain myself as best as I can

Enjoyment/Balance: Both 8. I enjoy the tier and I think it lets the better player win outside pokemon being pokemon or another factor which I wrote in.

Dragonite: iirc this is a 3 from me. I don't think it's completely broken, and I like the positives it brings to the tier over its negatives, but it can feel soooo dumb sometimes when you're playing/building offense. Main factor here is tera blast imo, but I'll get to that later. I saw a tour game where someone was down 3-6 by turn 7 and then won with Dnite later, that was funny. Guess what set that was.

Kingambit: I think this is a 2? I don't remember if I scored 2 or 1, but this mon is fine. Whenever I get swept by this I always think I got outplayed. It's fairly easy to check imo, it's the fact that there's threat saturation in the tier that makes it seem like you have to go out of your way to accommodate multiple checks to this. But when I'm building usually I can check it naturally with some slight adjustments which I think is fine for a top tier pokemon.

Ogerpon-Wellspring: If Dnite is a 3 then this had to be a 2, but I'm not sure if that's being completely honest. Maybe if I put Dnite as a 4 this would be a 3, but whatever. Best breaker in the tier by a mile, and top tier overall. But I think people think too much about its versatility and ignore that it can't do all of it at once. Most teams have found ways to deal with this mon by preventing it from getting free attacks off, which I think is good. It also brings multiple positives to the tier imo and has helped me build better as of late.

Kyurem: I don't think it's that broken in the traditional sense but I still gave it a 5. I don't like the dynamics it brings to the tier with its set variety, freeze cheese and subtect is just incredibly lame (not broken). May sound whiny, but whatever I don't like this mon in the tier I never use it either.

Gliscor: 1, this mon is perfectly fine. Very annoying to deal with on screens, but still not broken.

Roaring Moon/Walking Wake: I have to say I was very surprised and even laughed a bit seeing these two here. For Moon, it got banned with a pretty large majority, I'd like to know why it was included in the first place. That being said, I'm not entirely opposed to a retest if I hear some good reasoning, so I scored this a 3 I think. Wake however is a 1, I have no clue why this is here. Yeah it's unwallable on sun, but that's kind of always been the case. Balance and bulkier styles have little issue with this, and offense has multiple tools that limit it like Dnite, Prim, Oger, Valiant, Zama, Scarfrai, Dragapult, Samurott, Bolt and even nicher stuff like Volcanion, Latios etc. I don't think this'll ever be broken.

Write-in: Tera blast, similar to Kyurem (and a large part of Kyurem's kit in doing so) it's hard to argue it's broken outright but I hate the dynamic it brings to the tier. I just wish there was a suspect in one of the last few months to put the nail in the coffin for this topic in general. If it got banned, great it was broken and if not alright there you go no more discussion on this. Feels like an annoying hanging thread that imo plagues the tier.
 
Enjoyment: 8
Competitive: 6 (i wont give it more than that in a metagame with no open tera)

:dragonite: 4
It would be manageable without tera blast, but with the ammount of teras that this thing can run it steals games way to often to consider it balanced.

:kingambit: 3
Like i read above, gambit is a eternal 3. It has its roots way to deep into this tier for it to ever be banned. In my mind this is a GSC snorlax case: we all know its broken but we just deal with it. It has periods where it fells more broken than others but i think its here to stay.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 3.5
Its becoming problematic again, its just way too good at making progress with knock off and uturn and its a burden to build with this in mind. Trailblaze bulky sets are also quite good and under veil is just nightmarish. Offense deals with her fine but i think the correct way to look at a metagame is thinking how a pokemon affects balance, and wogerpon is way to good at destroying it.

:kyurem: 5
Speaking of destroying balance, this thing is super broken. Its literally impossible to prepare for this pokemon both in battle and in the builder. You either get sniped by the correct kyurem set for your team or it simply breaks it with freeze. I dont think this pokemon is healthy for the tier and it should be banned.

:walking-wake: 2
Broken on sun but thats it, i dont think that is problematic enough to consider wake ban worthy.

:gliscor: 5
I may be alone on this but i think gliscor is extremely unhealthy for the tier and despite not being unmanageable at the moment it doesn't add anything possitive for the metagame. It walls and invalidates too many pokemon and strategies and its just too suffocating for the tier to deal with i think. I hate this mon and i really think that sv ou would be a much better and diverse metagame without gliscor.

:roaring-moon: 1
I dont get this, it was a broken sweeper and nothing has change since it was banned. If we banned tera we could consider it but for the moment this thing must stay in ubers
 
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Enjoyment: 7
Competitive: 7

I think part of gen 9 is that there are certain match ups that feel like you lost at preview. However, you need to balance that with not letting really slow balance overrun the meta. I disagree with people saying it already has, offense and HO have done really well in a lot of recent tournaments. I think Vert has been super creative with their builds.

:dragonite: 3
I think I would vote DNB because of its ability as an anti-offense Mon with E-Speed, D-Tail, Roost, etc. It’s also very nice to throw on balance/BO teams to help deal with Oger. I think those positives outweigh its downsides. However, I totally understand why people view it as broken with Tera blast. Especially seeing how dominant it is in tournament. Tera flying and fairy are most popular right now, but whenever I lose to the Tera blast Ghost+low kick set, it doesn’t even feel like Pokemon lol.

:kingambit: 3
Was torn between 3 and 4 but I find that while teambuilding it’s fairly easy to have a few half-checks against Gambit between Tusk, Zama, Lu, Molt, Valiant, and even more niche options like flame body Heatran.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 4
It’s a pretty big strain on teambuilding. I find you basically need to have Dnite/Bolt on certain builds and hope to chip it for another Mon to take it on. The trail blaze sets are really scary because the chip->faster Mon strat stops working. It’s also frustrating if your Corv or Pech get crit and you’re SOL for stopping other physical attackers. I get why people would want to keep it in the tier though, Alo may become the number one Mon without it.

:kyurem: 5
Really dislike this pokemon. I think its coverage, moveset options, and bulk make it an extreme strain in the teambuilder and is part of the reason certain archetypes will never thrive this gen. I see a lot of good sample teams and RMTs basically say that there’s nothing you can do against Kyurem and you have to hope you guess the set right. This seems uncompetitive to me. Not to mention the fact that freeze on such a powerful pokemon is a brutal mechanic that can eliminate you’re dedicated switch in.

:walking-wake: 2.5
Sort of broken when paired with Bolt and Venusaur, and it overwhelms your counterplay, since a Tera water on a SpD wall could be a death sentence against the other two. I don’t think that’s necessarily all on Wake though and moreso just a facet of protosynthesis, Tera, and sun.

:gliscor: 1
I don’t see that many problematic Gliscor teams on the ladder right now (I’m typically around 1700). Maybe it’s the style I play, but I haven’t had many problems dealing with it. The toxic sets are more annoying to me than SD right now. SD often requires you to decide if you’re burning Tera or not which is a pretty big opportunity cost.

:roaring-moon: 1
This had pretty limited counter-play, especially after the advent of Tera blast fairy, since that took away sticky barb clef. I trust better players than me if they want to retest it though.
 
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