Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

[hex]

On a more serious note........then why even play Monotype?

Monotype feels "flowchart-y" because well...it is. Monotype is a tier where you're naturally constricted to building and that limit makes games feel streamlined. My opponent went into the mon thats going to click stone edge and I'm using flying, time to swap into my Corviknight. My opponent just went into their Greninja with Extrasensory vs my Poison team, I'm forced to go into my A-Muk now. Like that's just something the tier will always have. This wont ever change because of the mons and immunities you are essentially forced to use and no offense but this is just the most absolute basic understanding of Monotype. Like yea.......Dragon uses Goodra and Archaludon to have switch ins to Ice moves. Did you want them to get swept by ice beam/moonblat with no counterplay...? I'm just confused as to what you're trying to accomplish with this argument and it has derailed from the genuine good posts from twinkay and co. You are honestly better off just not playing Monotype if you have an issue with this because again that will never change. There's a lot of nuance and such that I'm leaving out to make this as concise as possible so just as a disclaimer: I understand that tech's and in-game outplaying breaks that sort of sequencing / streamlined gameplay. That's what makes playing+spectating Monotype fun!

Moving on......

twinkay very eloquently outlined (pretty much perfectly actually) why Gliscor isn't broken. There's not much more I can say that he didn't already say (he even caught the fact that Spectrier is Ghost's most snowball-y mon, not Flutter Mane..) Its not like running multiple mons with Ice-type coverage means Gliscor = broken. Flying, Dragon, & Ground are all very strong top tier types in the meta and shouting out the idea that Gliscor specifically is the reason people are running multiple instances of the same coverage feels disingenuous. People adapted to Gliscor's teammates by using Rock Slide Gren, Rock Slide Lando-I, Smack Down Mamo, and more. There's plenty of experimenting to be made in the tier in general.

Innovation happens all the time in Monotype, there are plenty of unused ideas that I have been attempting to build with / that I have seen others build with. Trichotomy and Mada are two people that I see coming up with a lot of cool stuff here and there, and Premonitions was another proponent of innovation when he still played the tier. Floss and crow crumbs were also great on my MPL team when it came to coming up with fresh ideas. I do think SV Monotype is almost "solved" in the sense that there really aren't a lot of broken elements in the tier left to potentially get rid of. As far as unique tech's and things like that, the tier has so much more room to grow and I would not call it solved in that regard.

An Espathra unban would only exacerbate this whole offense meta everyone is complaining about. Even if you ban Speed Boost, Psychic is already a super-niche type, and to support Espathra you would likely need to run screens. Why bother freeing an element that only promotes more cheese/mu fish gameplay? Blaziken I can see an okay argument for as it has interesting coverage. But Fire is already one of the best types in the meta imo, without Speed Boost it really doesn't have a reason to use Blaziken, so what does freeing these mons without speed boost even do for SV Monotype? Discussing these feel super non-productive

Ahem...I will propose how to "solve" SV Monotype:
Suspect Gliscor so everyone finally stops talking about it
Suspect Archaludon (its actually broken btw)
Suspect Heat Rock
Unban Zamazenta (mon that actually helps vs offense and has the coverage pool and set variety to keep so many things in check...why did we ban it l0l)

GG!

 

[The Goo Goo Dolls]

I feel like a good portion of this discussion has derailed into side arguments. So allow me to chime in.



I agree with twinkay's post 100%. Gliscor is not the issue that is rendering Monotype. It's the fact that it can freely exist without the use of hidden power keeping it's trickery from setting hazards, status, and even swords dancing that is the biggest factor. I can go on all day about utilizing each type to provide a form of coverage but that debacle will continue to infinity loop around all ends.

now that you say it like that it sound stupid. but was there any recent innovation? and no. not using heatran on steel doesn't change the meta.
I have an idea that's probably bad. but how about we just ban Alot of breakers? the tier feels almost flowcharty

I do want to touch basis on this in my own words as well as this seems a bit... confusing to read over. Banning a lot of breakers would actually hender a great deal of types from performing the way the state of this generation & the metagame go by. For instance let's say hypothetically you want to ban Meowscarada and Greninja from Dark as they can be deemed as wallbreakers for Phys & Special Attack, there are limited slots to toss back in once those are gone that make Dark still feel the same. You could argue running Darkrai + Hoopa-U but it still would be a bit more of a drastic indifference. I agree with Leafeonlol's statement as well as Wincon's, there are quite a LOT of things that can be utilized in this tier.


With the rising set monthly room project I notice that there are some very fun and innovative things coming out of this. One in particular that I even used was the emboar set for Fighting which, although it would catch some off guard, was genuinely a fun fresh idea. SV is far from over even if ZA stuff may eventually get dropped and we get a whole new possible metagame. And that's the fun part of Monotype. This gen, at least to me, could use some more breathing room. But Gliscor by any means is never the sole issue. It's the fact that we don't have the same easy to throw in tools that, let's say, we had during SM Monotype with Hidden Power that caused it to become less of an issue and easier to deal with overall.



Just gotta look outside the box of the same 6 mons sometimes and try new things out I suppose! Also I could add onto some of the Arch debate as well but truth be told that is a mild headache to toss into the hat.

 

[Leafeonlol]

It's the fact that we don't have the same easy to throw in tools that, let's say, we had during SM Monotype with Hidden Power that caused it to become less of an issue and easier to deal with overall

We also had no hdb so moltres/cuno were bad and steela/skarm were your ice switchins

 

[Lithuanian Newbie]

I didn't post replays because I beat gliscor setups most of the time and it'll go against my argument. ALL the flying gliscor users follow the same braindead approach. You just have shove ice coverage where possible and shove in moves to deal with the cores and use the flowchart to your advantage.

It's a way to "win" but it isn't competitive and it's a waste of time. When I see random builds forcing ice punch on a mon that shouldn't have it I know it's because of the fear of gliscor

It's not a healthy mon to have in the meta.

If tour players want it available so they feel safe no-skilling tours or because they fear offensive teams and don't want to be embarrassed ... then that's just selfish and cowardly

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2446877673-ptwywk38v0ordxuio4osdasf4we972lpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2446870143-7v5wq01ujkav2xf4xopsnjccu6r1ihwpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2455385114-fgaowx60jwe47pdvj2rpi5fe03yg04fpw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2454733217-58fwddhyo3omgjuita9wi902fq5plfqpw

Bonus:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2471016050-tuir8am329lmj8o09ldpudrec8br5lcpw?p2

 

[ArkenCiel]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2455385114-fgaowx60jwe47pdvj2rpi5fe03yg04fpw?p2

I watched a game just to see what it's about. There's a fair bit to glean from the battle despite the victory at the end. With Mamoswine on crash-shard and smack down, they're equipped to break the flying core, so long as it stayed healthy. One burn or toxic and the game is as good as dead. They had to pull off numerous doubles and reads AND dodged a wisp to get the win in the end. I think it makes sense why they'd want action against Gliscor when they prepared for the matchup, had to pull multiple plays to get progress (which got reset anyway), and still had to get lucky just to win by the end

 

[hammy3581]

I didn't post replays because I beat gliscor setups most of the time and it'll go against my argument. ALL the flying gliscor users follow the same braindead approach. You just have shove ice coverage where possible and shove in moves to deal with the cores and use the flowchart to your advantage.

It's a way to "win" but it isn't competitive and it's a waste of time. When I see random builds forcing ice punch on a mon that shouldn't have it I know it's because of the fear of gliscor

It's not a healthy mon to have in the meta.

If tour players want it available so they feel safe no-skilling tours or because they fear offensive teams and don't want to be embarrassed ... then that's just selfish and cowardly

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2446877673-ptwywk38v0ordxuio4osdasf4we972lpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2446870143-7v5wq01ujkav2xf4xopsnjccu6r1ihwpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2455385114-fgaowx60jwe47pdvj2rpi5fe03yg04fpw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2454733217-58fwddhyo3omgjuita9wi902fq5plfqpw

Bonus:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2471016050-tuir8am329lmj8o09ldpudrec8br5lcpw?p2

Echoing the above, I'm really not seeing how these replays support your argument. Like you mention needing random ice coverage to deal with gliscor but you also don't need to use it during ANY of the replays. What I'm seeing is you generally just not liking the idea of bulky teams existence and having to spend time to beat them (evidenced by you saying "28 turns to kill one mon, ban gliscor" and "this is a poor way to spend the evening.") And I think that's a fine opinion to have but deciding that gliscor is broken just because it benefits that teamstyle doesn't really make sense to me.

Suspect Archaludon (its actually broken btw)

Could you elaborate a little more on this? Because imo arch is probably the ideal defensive mon in that it provides valuable resistances for both of its types, has valuable support moves like rocks or twave (which is admittedly pretty annoying) along with offensive potential, but also has never really felt like its "unkillable" or impossible to make progress against. Its usually forced to come in multiple times per game which means its spikes weak without boots, and with boots it doesn't have any healing to get from switches. Also even then, theres a good chunk of mons that it likes switching into who have knock to neutralize either item. Idk, I just really haven't had a game where I felt that I couldn't break arch or when building had to pay it special attention in the teambuilder. But again, would like to hear your thoughts on it too.

 

[Lithuanian Newbie]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2455385114-fgaowx60jwe47pdvj2rpi5fe03yg04fpw?p2

I watched a game just to see what it's about. There's a fair bit to glean from the battle despite the victory at the end. With Mamoswine on crash-shard and smack down, they're equipped to break the flying core, so long as it stayed healthy. One burn or toxic and the game is as good as dead. They had to pull off numerous doubles and reads AND dodged a wisp to get the win in the end. I think it makes sense why they'd want action against Gliscor when they prepared for the matchup, had to pull multiple plays to get progress (which got reset anyway), and still had to get lucky just to win by the end

No way. An actual intellectual.

That's exactly what I was trying to show in that replay. I pointed it out in a post earlier. In the game that I lost, the bonus replay, when building i wanted to go choice band meowscarada for the gliscor matchup only, but I was hedging between dealing with specs fluttermane and went scarf. I thought i could outplay my way out of the issue when the gliscor core showed up (because fluttermane is actually a bigger threat to dark) ... but it's just too complete without a dedicated counter

Thank you sir. I'll highlight this exact point from a previous post i've made

Lastly on skill issue, you can make 10 perfect predictions but all the gliscor user needs is ONE prediction to go their way and your counter or counters are toxic’d and the game is over as gliscor and friends will stall out the game . And don't get me started on substitute toxic protect builds

 

[ArkenCiel]

With the floodgates open and the discussion expanding, I am also open to suspecting either Heat Rock or Firepon, preferably Heat Rock first and then Firepon right away if Heat Rock survives. I think one or the other has overstayed.

I'm open to an Archaludon suspect as well but I don't think it's as deserving of it anymore. Curious to know what the climate is for Volcarona since I've heard it mentioned a few times. I'm out of the loop and want to know if it's deserving

 

[Pengairxan]

Curious to know what the climate is for Volcarona since I've heard it mentioned a few times. I'm out of the loop and want to know if it's deserving

I'm writing this at work, but the short is, it is the matchup moth. It's just doing the same things it always does. That being said, sub and wisp developments have lead to it becoming rougher to handle along with fire being able to just slam would be volc checks super well.

 

[hex]

Could you elaborate a little more on this?

That part I was being sarcastic though I could've done a better job at conveying that (oops). Just for the sake of no more shit-posting from my end I'll try to clear up my reasoning's for the other ones at least

Suspecting Gliscor imo is like literally just so we can stop having this discussion. I'm not saying it's bad, but Gouging Fire went through the same process of being talked about for like a year and everyone just went in circles so I think having a suspect would finally move the tier along in a different direction because I think that SV is in a relatively good spot and like I aforementioned, there's not much in the tier that is left to change before I think it's pretty settled from a tiering perspective.

Heat Rock sounds like another good suspect proponent, I honestly don't see it as that big of a deal but it's clear that other people don't feel the same way I do and I'm the outlier on this. However, I do feel that Firepon under a bunch of turns of Sun is unhealthy so I'm on the fence.

I think banning Zamazenta was probably a mistake though again I think I'm the total outlier on this lol. I think Zama is a great tool to combat offense and has very unique coverage and set variety (IDPress, Roar, Band, Lorb, Rest, etc) to keep a lot of things in check.

If tour players want it available so they feel safe no-skilling tours or because they fear offensive teams and don't want to be embarrassed ... then that's just selfish and cowardly

Last thing I'll say here cuz I got rage-baited and now my posts are derailing. But, before your post was deleted (not sure if it was by you or a moderator, assuming the latter) I read it and it's a bit interesting how much you misinterpreted my post. The original user I was talking to was suggesting to ban a lot of breakers because the tier feels like a flowchart, and they also were complaining about how the only thing holding back Dragon from being swept by Ice Beam / Moonblast was Archaludon and Hoodra. Like.......yes! That's......how Monotype works! Which is what I was trying to explain. Repeating myself here lol but my entire point is that because Monotype inherently forces you to use certain immunities (Alolan Muk on Poison, Gholdengo + Heatran + Ground Immune on Steel) the tier can feel streamlined in the sense that your plays can be obvious to your opponent (which is what it means to be a flowchart-y tier). My earlier post had nothing to do about Gliscor when explaining this and you proudly exclaimed how my viewpoint on Gliscor was an oversimplification when I wasn't even talking about it lol.

As far as your no-skill etc. argument, tournaments should be and are the highest levels of gameplay. What should tournament players do? Not use literally what META translates to? Yes, if you want to win, you should use the most effective tactic available insert nerd emoji

It's quite bad faith to come into a meta discussion to have more "intelligent discussion" then start insulting people, wildly misinterpreting posts, then only agree with people who are making the same argument as you.

This will make my post seem more aggressive than I intend it to be probably so I'm disclaiming here that I'm absolutely not trying to bring anyone down or be rude to anyone! I'm only using this opportunity to voice my thoughts and maybe it will actually change the culture of this thread. But I think it's really frustrating when this thread gets derailed by people who are obviously not very in-tune with the tournament scene and the like. Mono council already takes forever to do stuff (which I think is OK btw. it's important to wait and see how things are going before acting) and so when we get derails like "tournament players are pussies for using gliscor lol! theyre scared of my bug gym leader team!" it's just like obviously not productive to the thread at all and it's obvious its a newer player or just a ladder main. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I was obviously being hyperbolic with my gym leader quote lol but I implore newer users to hop in Mono discord and have some discussion there, ask questions, or read through the thread more extensively before taking such an aggressive stance. I'm not saying wanting to ban Gliscor is wrong, but it's important you be more delicate in the way you propose your arguments otherwise no one will want to listen to you (i.e shitting on not only me for my own opinions but calling all tournament players skilless) (well lowkey thats aura sign up for MWP i'll draft u)

 

[The Goo Goo Dolls]

Now that it seems things have toned down a bit I do want to add onto the Gliscor discussion in a more healthy manner.


I have noticed quite a few things that could shift the minds of pro-gliscor ban in the given meta with some thought out research- who am I kidding I just looked at my builder for approximately 15 minutes and thought of some things that could be used to break the Flying comp that predominantly runs Articuno + Moltres + Corviknight + Gliscor (We throw in Torn + Filler later).


Both & . Now this would pertain more of Ghost teams as Water naturally already has great means to breaking those style of comps given things like Urshifu + Swampert with Rocks & Knock Off. Though a more niche approach, since Flutter Mane has the means to run Power Gem + Thunderbolt, both possess Adaptability along with their each respected Attack and Special Attack stats being very good to attest to their wallbreaking capabilities. (However you can also try to fit 1 of these forms on your team as well)


Dragon, the lovely type that has not remotely went down from the top 3 since the start of this generation, has access to a vast coverage with and both of which I advocate for using Expert Belt, Choice Specs, or Choice Scarf (the later option due to Healing Wish), along with & which have rised a lot in usage making it detrimentally easier to break through Flying.


Ground has access to a powerful wallbreaker in while also abusing with Gravity + Rock Slide & Earth Power. Some also enjoy using to help pivot with Volt Switch or just naturally pressure Gliscor's teammates with Thunderbolt.


Flying is a neutral matchup given that each can use similar cores however the option of going against those cores is there. Some altered sets to become Special Attack based given it's access to Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.

Some sought out to using really creative set's with Protean with Expert Belt + Rock Slide & Ice Beam.


Poison, the fated Poison debacle versus Gliscor, I know how annoying it is to load up the type and get immediately met with Flying in my face. I personally think using a bulky variant of with Ice Beam, keeping it healthy with Regenerator swapping, and in the backline have something to par with Weezing Galar. Perhaps things like Choice Specs , Choice Scarf (Or the Bulk up Variant). is also a good choice with Hex.


Fire, naturally will break Flying easily with it's access to Sun + Wallbreakers.


Steel pressures with Stealth Rocks + Gholdengo along with Air Balloon Iron Treads to perform much needed Knock Off & 1v1 Gliscor easily with Ice Spinner (assuming you keep your air balloon up).


I will be upfront and state that as far as Grass, Bug, and Rock goes, I have to do more indepth research as those are types I have not formally introduced myself well to in this generation as the appeal to using them is just not my fortay. But I am open to hearing how those types could very well be integrated and used to break bulky types similar to the infamous Flying core. (Though the ideas that are at hand are Band , , and )


Fairy I feel you just really need to pressure with Iron Valiant, Screens, and Azumarill.


Normal you pressure with &


Fighting ?


(Electric will always be an easier route so I decided to not throw this one in, Ice is in the same boat but with a moment of setup can win, Water can break things easily with Rain + or , Ghost has access to & )


Taking a page from Wincon once again, I will say there are rooms for the lower types to utilize some fun and cool sets. A lot of Psychic uses sets to setup sweep, and a good majority of the time they end up paying off. Yes you have to have a steady hand in your builder to bring in the right sets to prevent certain types from deleting you from the ladder existence, but as Hex said that's just Monotype. No reason to bash on the tier for being setup the way it is when realistically this generation just gives us more powercreep versus overall balance versus previous generations we have played and enjoyed. No access to hidden power just gives the team builder a bit more creativity when you get down to the nitty gritty of certain types and type matchups. Will every game be able to be played similar to how every type was viable in SS Mono for example? No. That's the unfortunate route this generation took with a lot of it's in game goodies that we were given and the tools that we have at our disposal.

 

[cat111ca]

An Espathra unban would only exacerbate this whole offense meta everyone is complaining about. Even if you ban Speed Boost, Psychic is already a super-niche type, and to support Espathra you would likely need to run screens. Why bother freeing an element that only promotes more cheese/mu fish gameplay?

Honestly. I just thought about unbanning espathra because it's an oubl monotype Pokemon on a niche typing, and i thought it could be a nice psychic buff. I didn't actually think about what specifically would happen LoL

 

[cat111ca]

With all due respect, how long have you been playing monotype? Do you genuinely consider yourself to be in a position to claim that there have been no recent cases of innovation? If you don’t consider the idea of using a team without the pokemon that’s been widely considered an auto include since the day it got released innovation I truly don’t know what you want. Not all innovation needs to change the meta, so let’s not move the goalpost. And yes, your idea is bad. What could banning a bunch of breakers possibly contribute to the meta? If you’re tired of the tier feeling “flowcharty” there are plenty of other options to go enjoy. myself and many others enjoy the intricacies of sv mono, but maybe you don’t and that is perfectly ok.

You know what. I am new! I wanted to make psychic work and I think I've made a genuinely great team. I've understood the metagame. And I sadly think ur right and maybe monotype just isn't for me. Does anybody know a tier similar to monotype but less hyper offensive and predictable? I love playing bulky offence and will never stop make bulky offence.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

Now that it seems things have toned down a bit I do want to add onto the Gliscor discussion in a more healthy manner.


I have noticed quite a few things that could shift the minds of pro-gliscor ban in the given meta with some thought out research- who am I kidding I just looked at my builder for approximately 15 minutes and thought of some things that could be used to break the Flying comp that predominantly runs Articuno + Moltres + Corviknight + Gliscor (We throw in Torn + Filler later).


Both & . Now this would pertain more of Ghost teams as Water naturally already has great means to breaking those style of comps given things like Urshifu + Swampert with Rocks & Knock Off. Though a more niche approach, since Flutter Mane has the means to run Power Gem + Thunderbolt, both possess Adaptability along with their each respected Attack and Special Attack stats being very good to attest to their wallbreaking capabilities. (However you can also try to fit 1 of these forms on your team as well)


Dragon, the lovely type that has not remotely went down from the top 3 since the start of this generation, has access to a vast coverage with and both of which I advocate for using Expert Belt, Choice Specs, or Choice Scarf (the later option due to Healing Wish), along with & which have rised a lot in usage making it detrimentally easier to break through Flying.


Ground has access to a powerful wallbreaker in while also abusing with Gravity + Rock Slide & Earth Power. Some also enjoy using to help pivot with Volt Switch or just naturally pressure Gliscor's teammates with Thunderbolt.


Flying is a neutral matchup given that each can use similar cores however the option of going against those cores is there. Some altered sets to become Special Attack based given it's access to Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.

Some sought out to using really creative set's with Protean with Expert Belt + Rock Slide & Ice Beam.


Poison, the fated Poison debacle versus Gliscor, I know how annoying it is to load up the type and get immediately met with Flying in my face. I personally think using a bulky variant of with Ice Beam, keeping it healthy with Regenerator swapping, and in the backline have something to par with Weezing Galar. Perhaps things like Choice Specs , Choice Scarf (Or the Bulk up Variant). is also a good choice with Hex.


Fire, naturally will break Flying easily with it's access to Sun + Wallbreakers.


Steel pressures with Stealth Rocks + Gholdengo along with Air Balloon Iron Treads to perform much needed Knock Off & 1v1 Gliscor easily with Ice Spinner (assuming you keep your air balloon up).


I will be upfront and state that as far as Grass, Bug, and Rock goes, I have to do more indepth research as those are types I have not formally introduced myself well to in this generation as the appeal to using them is just not my fortay. But I am open to hearing how those types could very well be integrated and used to break bulky types similar to the infamous Flying core. (Though the ideas that are at hand are Band , , and )


Fairy I feel you just really need to pressure with Iron Valiant, Screens, and Azumarill.


Normal you pressure with &


Fighting ?


(Electric will always be an easier route so I decided to not throw this one in, Ice is in the same boat but with a moment of setup can win, Water can break things easily with Rain + or , Ghost has access to & )


Taking a page from Wincon once again, I will say there are rooms for the lower types to utilize some fun and cool sets. A lot of Psychic uses sets to setup sweep, and a good majority of the time they end up paying off. Yes you have to have a steady hand in your builder to bring in the right sets to prevent certain types from deleting you from the ladder existence, but as Hex said that's just Monotype. No reason to bash on the tier for being setup the way it is when realistically this generation just gives us more powercreep versus overall balance versus previous generations we have played and enjoyed. No access to hidden power just gives the team builder a bit more creativity when you get down to the nitty gritty of certain types and type matchups. Will every game be able to be played similar to how every type was viable in SS Mono for example? No. That's the unfortunate route this generation took with a lot of it's in game goodies that we were given and the tools that we have at our disposal.

this post completely neglects substitute + toxic gliscor, which handily beats a number of the pokemon listed here.

I can't quite figure out how to word exactly why I find gliscor to be unhealthy in a coherent sentence so instead I'll list them in points, in my opinion, gliscor is unhealthy because of the following:

1. It is unfathomably easy to use. There is extremely little thinking that needs to be done when using Gliscor. Need something to take a Knock Off? Easy. Worried about the opponent statusing you? No need.

2. The payoff for it being brainlessly easy to use it way, way too large. Is Toxapex easy to use? Yes. Is Skarmory easy to use. Yes. Do these Pokemon have even a fraction of the potential to dictate the outcome of games nearly as much as Gliscor does? No. If your opponent makes a misstep and lets something get poisoned, gg that Pokemon is done playing

3. You are required to respond to it immediately. Have I suddenly found myself in a bad position? No matter, I'll just switch into Gliscor and immediately make my opponent play the game at my pace. I honestly can't think of many, if any, other pokemon that require such a response. Gliscor is unique in the fact that once it comes in, you are immediately required to be proactive. If I send in my Gholdengo and my opponent sends out a counter (Ting Lu for example) it is in my best interest to switch out to something that I can 1. apply pressure to or 2. not die to. There are very few Pokemon that when they come in I say to myself ok its time to switch out.

Am I exaggerating a bit? Maybe. Do I still genuinely believe Gliscor is unhealthy? Yes. Are some of these issues negated if your opponent isn't using the Gliscor set that doesn't have the better matchup into your team? Yeah. Though, the question has to be asked, why choose between substitute + toxic and sd + facade if you can have both? If nobody else is brave enough maybe I'll experiment with substitute / toxic / swords dance / facade or knock off because I honestly think it can work.

At the end of the day, these are just my opinions. Do you disagree with me? Awesome, let's engage in civilized discussion (without calling each other sub-intellectuals lol) as to why. I'm glad we're having (mostly) productive metagame discussion for the first time in a while. I am definitely on board with heat rock / ogerpon-h as well. I'm looking forward to mwp -- I hope some players who performed well in mfpl get a shot.

 

[Lithuanian Newbie]

this post completely neglects substitute + toxic gliscor, which handily beats a number of the pokemon listed here.

I can't quite figure out how to word exactly why I find gliscor to be unhealthy in a coherent sentence so instead I'll list them in points, in my opinion, gliscor is unhealthy because of the following:

1. It is unfathomably easy to use. There is extremely little thinking that needs to be done when using Gliscor. Need something to take a Knock Off? Easy. Worried about the opponent statusing you? No need.

2. The payoff for it being brainlessly easy to use it way, way too large. Is Toxapex easy to use? Yes. Is Skarmory easy to use. Yes. Do these Pokemon have even a fraction of the potential to dictate the outcome of games nearly as much as Gliscor does? No. If your opponent makes a misstep and lets something get poisoned, gg that Pokemon is done playing

3. You are required to respond to it immediately. Have I suddenly found myself in a bad position? No matter, I'll just switch into Gliscor and immediately make my opponent play the game at my pace. I honestly can't think of many, if any, other pokemon that require such a response. Gliscor is unique in the fact that once it comes in, you are immediately required to be proactive. If I send in my Gholdengo and my opponent sends out a counter (Ting Lu for example) it is in my best interest to switch out to something that I can 1. apply pressure to or 2. not die to. There are very few Pokemon that when they come in I say to myself ok its time to switch out.

Am I exaggerating a bit? Maybe. Do I still genuinely believe Gliscor is unhealthy? Yes. Are some of these issues negated if your opponent isn't using the Gliscor set that doesn't have the better matchup into your team? Yeah. Though, the question has to be asked, why choose between substitute + toxic and sd + facade if you can have both? If nobody else is brave enough maybe I'll experiment with substitute / toxic / swords dance / facade or knock off because I honestly think it can work.

At the end of the day, these are just my opinions. Do you disagree with me? Awesome, let's engage in civilized discussion (without calling each other sub-intellectuals lol) as to why. I'm glad we're having (mostly) productive metagame discussion for the first time in a while. I am definitely on board with heat rock / ogerpon-h as well. I'm looking forward to mwp -- I hope some players who performed well in mfpl get a shot.

I've been a bit spicy on here and most of the responses regarding the gliscor argument only reply to the spicy parts of the conversation. With some of the key points brought up against gliscor completely ignored

I'd like to ask the people in favor of gliscor to please debate the points this user has listed. No drama, no spice. Please just debate the points.

The flying support that gliscor is part of makes the flying defensive core extremely formidable. In building, i've had to skew almost every build to account for it. I've found going all out attack and being aggressive with my dedicated counters to be the best approach

For most other types that don't have an arsenal of heavy hitters, the way to break down a core like this is to use statuses or hazards to mitigate the endless switchins.

Stealth rocks are not an immediate problem-solving tactic to facing this core because of the common use of heavy duty boots equipped to mons like moltres and articuno.

Even if you manage to isolate one of the heavy duty boots user to knock off their item, a simple switch to gliscor negates all the work done to get yourself into that position.

Another approach will be to toxic, paralyze or burn a mon in the core, to get a little bit of an advantage in the long game. But again, a simple switch to gliscor negates that approach.

At every turn, Gliscor is found at the scene of the crime when it comes to a natural problem-solving approach. Given the limited teambuilding options in monotype. I thought it was glaringly obvious that gliscor is a problem that people who are more familiar with meta SHOULD have identified.

I rather play the game than be on here debating about a pokemon being broken, but i'm here because every time I brought up gliscor in the monotype room. I was met with "it's a skill issue" & "it's annoying but not broken"

So please, I'm asking again, for all the gliscor supporters, please debate point number 1, 2 & 3 that the RoyalReloaded user has brought up. Defend gliscor and tell us why these points shouldn't be considered. Thanks

 

[Molemitts]

It’s great that we’re finally broaching the gliscor subject. This pokemon is far from okay. It lives hits it shouldn’t and has an incredible range of viable sets that make it nearly impossible to deal with in a match without setting yourself up to get absolutely owned if you guess the wrong set.

There is only one move that gliscor is locked into, in my opinion, and that’s protect. Knock, EQ, SD, Toxic, Sub, Taunt, Rocks, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, go nuts man, the world is your oyster. You can’t sit idly on a gliscor because it’s presence immediately threatens physical setup with SD, so you HAVE to switch to your gliscor answer unless the pokemon on the field already threatens very significant damage. Now, while wasting a turn switching to the pokemon that is supposed to check gliscor, it gets a free turn on you. You can get knocked, crippling the pokemon for the rest of the game, watch them get free hazards, or worst of all, get badly poisoned from toxic. Any one of these things happening is devastating in a lot of cases, potentially game-winning in the case of toxic. If your gliscor answer is on a clock, you’re going to be taking damage while you’re forced to attack and gliscor heals. Then the flying player will finally switch to their defensive answer to the move you’re using. By this point you have taken 2-3 turns of toxic damage and the defensive answer will, in most cases, take very minimal damage. Most of the pokemon that do threaten gliscor in a meaningful way are choice locking themselves, meaning you will have what you’re locking in scouted.

Some Relevant Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 94-111 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 118-139 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 151-178 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 120-142 (31.3 - 37%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Moltres: 137-164 (35.6 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Moltres: 203-244 (52.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Reminder that these last 2 calcs come with an ~65% chance to burn Meowscarada.
252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 124-147 (31 - 36.8%) -- 78.4% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 185-219 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 100-121 (29.9 - 36.2%) -- 24.8% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-179 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 22.4% chance to 2HKO

Congrats on your 22% skarmory 2hko, by the way. You just took 6 rocky helmet triggers as recoil.

One of the most common dnb gliscor defenses is “just click ice moves lol” but flying very intentionally runs a very very synergistic neutrality and defensive core that makes breaking gliscor like pulling teeth. A lot of the breakers that actually force gliscor out are choiced and just get scouted. As we can see from the above calcs, you are barely ever putting significant pressure on the thing fat flying is switching to. So now the only way to put yourself in an advantageous position is to double on the answer after the protect. This leaves you extremely open to a call from the gliscor user, because, again, this pokemon cannot be allowed to sit idly. If you get your double called you get forced into a truly horrendous spot, so you often have to make the worse, safer play and let them switch to their defensive answer.

gliscor is actually pretty healthy for the meta because it enables pretty much the only viable form of balance / defensively-centered gameplay besides steel and maybe water stall.

We NEED Mons like Gliscor, Archaludon, and Gholdengo to combat the high offensive power in the tier.

Okay guys I’d like to remind you that gliscor (and gholdengo) fucking own fat. These are not pokemon that make the metagame more defensive (not talking about archa), they oppress fat and force offensive answers. Gliscor is nearly singlehandedly beating poison and creates massive issues for fat water with its ability to inflict status, remove boots and apply hazards, as well as its immunity to status and knock absorption. I just want to bring us back to reality and remind everyone that this pokemon oppresses the fat teams that run enough defensive tools to weather this power crept offense we’re talking about.

I don’t want to reply to every single listed pokemon here but there are several I take issue with being listed as a “gliscor check” and I feel like I have to respond.

Ground has access to a powerful wallbreaker in while also abusing with Gravity + Rock Slide & Earth Power. Some also enjoy using to help pivot with Volt Switch or just naturally pressure Gliscor's teammates with Thunderbolt.

Yeah so Shocks is hard walled by spdef gliscor so I want to just get that one out of the way first. You get knocked, EQed, poisoned, setup on, pick your form of abuse. That pokemon is not doing a damn thing in front of a gliscor except running away. Lando can put some pressure on gliscor and the flying team by setting gravity, the problems are that you not only have to get lando in on it, but you have to spend turns setting grav allowing gliscor to pressure you with knock (permanently nerfing your damage by taking your lorb), toxic (now lando is on a clock), SD->EQ (thanks for setting gravity for me lando!). Mamo is your best bet. The problem is that you have to run a smack down set to really pressure the flying core unless you think your banded mamo is going to land all his ice crashes and flinch the neutral birds. Even when you tech with smack down mamo you can still lose! It certainly makes it trickier, but i have personally beaten this tech that is nearly exclusively for fat flying while playing fat flying. We’re seeing a pokemon that is almost singlehandedly warping the way you’re building and you’re not even winning… get slammed with a toxic on the switch-in and boom, you’re on that clock again.

Some sought out to using really creative set's with Protean with Expert Belt + Rock Slide & Ice Beam.

…isn’t being overly meta warping one of the reasons we suspect mons?

Poison, the fated Poison debacle versus Gliscor, I know how annoying it is to load up the type and get immediately met with Flying in my face. I personally think using a bulky variant of with Ice Beam, keeping it healthy with Regenerator swapping, and in the backline have something to par with Weezing Galar. Perhaps things like Choice Specs , Choice Scarf (Or the Bulk up Variant). is also a good choice with Hex.

Glowking

4 SpA Slowking-Galar Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 224 SpD Gliscor: 276-328 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 494-584 (125.3 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Knock->eq also KOes. The minimum amount of spatk investment required for Glowking to guaranteed ohko this Gliscor spread is 168 EVs with a modest nature. If you want to run this, glowking’s ability to wall is severely neutered. You are left with 88 spdef EVs without a boosting nature. There is also a good chance they just don’t let you ice beam it and you butchered your glowking EVs for nothing.

Okidogi Ice Punch Vs spdef leaning Gliscor

252 Atk Okidogi Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 32 Def Gliscor: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

As someone who has played both sides of this matchup fairly extensively, I want to say that it is in no way difficult to heal up gliscor in it. Poison just doesn’t have that relentless offensive pressure you need to keep it low. It’s going to switch back in on pex or amoongus or something and it’s going to heal up. You’ve revealed your hand with dogi and it’s not going to work twice. You’re gonna get scouted next time and a steel bird or moltres is going to eat this hit and now you’re caught with your pants down.

Iron Moth gets its move scouted by protect and if it’s overheat:

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Moth Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 192-227 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now you’re at -2 and moltres is clicking roost and nearly healing to full. You have lost 1/4 of your Overheat PP to deal 10% to moltres.

Pecharunt is really only breaking a flying defensive core if it’s nasty plot, and even then it’s not doing it very well. Between the low PP on malignant chain and hex, pressure corv and pressure haze articuno, you’re probably just gonna get pp stalled. Good chance you poison articuno, I’ll give you that, but cuno is really not that important of a pokemon in that matchup and I imagine it can weather it regardless by switching to reset the toxic damage.

Fire, naturally will break Flying easily with it's access to Sun + Wallbreakers.

Fair point, but gliscor also:

A. Can tag these mons with toxic.

B. Slam them with EQ.

C. Waste sun turns with protect or even substitute.

Spdef gliscor with toxic is historically my best volcarona check on my fatter flying builds.

Fighting ?

This pokemon has the electric type, the choice gliscor check on fighting is urshifu, which does pressure it and is one of the only pokemon in the game that can’t get scouted with protect safely.

I could probably write forever about Gliscor, but I’ll stop here for now.

 

[pikachu<3]

There's a lot of discussion about how Gliscor flying teams are a massive pain. While I agree Gliscor needs to go, Gliscor is not just broken on Flying teams. Gliscor on ground teams is just as deadly and braindead as Gliscor next to its Flying friends.

I played Garry and Neko at the same time in 2 bo3s, which is only possible because Gliscor is so braindead I can just click randomly; won every game (4-0).

I'll let the following replays speak mostly for themselves; note that Gliscor basically singlehandedly wins the game in most of them:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2472690283-vir91f1daaaqpad8mxsjrttt1acxa4ypw?p2 -- Gliscor admittingly doesn't do to much here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2472688540-vprjt34atovankhbu4t4f80kh9kn0mhpw?p2 -- I throw midgame, but it doesn't matter because Gliscor is broken and singlehandedly drags me to the finish line no matter how bad I play

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2472685749-9jooqi2h6t2rn8sx0ubcgvqtp6hqk7wpw -- The opponent preps for flying by running Screens + Bolt, but didn't prep for subTect Gliscor on ground, instant win from t0

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2472685126-063tkcmyu08upaypq70i6oc0wy0j2jspw -- Gliscor takes 90%+ from switching in to a crit Polt due to me being distracted (playing multiple games at once) but still checks the +6/+6 anti-ground demon Sinistcha anyways, winning the game despite my awful piloting

Bonus replay, vs Trich:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2472562881-k5jhx5n7opid814dlwka6ig73e0kpf2pw -- Game's much more difficult due to a Toxic miss on Lando-I but Gliscor pulls through all the same regardless

This mon is absurdly broken on both Ground and Flying, get this shit out of the tier ASAP

 

[Day Healer]

Thanks god we started discussion on Gliscor, Idk why monotype is always so reluctant to discuss defensive threats, is because they aren't sweeping your team like a Chien pao or Baxcalibur could? From memory, the only defensive threats mono banned in the past are like Mega Sableye in gen6 (it got banned mostly for it's calm mind set, so idk if it counts) and the complex ban of Zapdos in gen6 (to weaken the SkarmDos core). Not even the most impactful mon in gen7, aka Celesteela, had ever a proper discussion (not saying it was broken but still..)

About Gliscor, I could say is a balanced mon... if it was alone. But the truth is Gliscor have teammates, teammates buffed with the introduction of Heavy duty boots. Add to that the lack of HP ice and ice coverage that most types lacks this gen and you have a recipe for disaster right there.
Like others said before me, it offers way too much progress for so little cost: a scouting tool, an anti stall mon, an electric immunity, a status absorber, a Knock off absorber, an item remover itself, a PP staller, all put together into a single mon. Like daw, tell me any other mon that offers all of this together and I could reconsider.

I think Gliscor is beatable? Yes is beatable. Every thing is beatable if forced to play against and given the proper time, I bet people could find solutions even if fuckin Lugia is unbanned. I think Gliscor improves the meta? Nah, it punish you for the smallest misstep or hax you had, with a Toxic, a pp stall or a Knock off, pick your poison

 

[Tuff Tuff]

Hi,
First of all - while there are some points that i agree with, i have to disagree with others.

We can all agree that Gliscor by itself isnt broken or... uncompetetive i guess, what makes it so frustrating to deal with is its good synergy with flyings defensive Core. It leads to very grindy and repetetive Game states. Flying has a really good Defensive core, that has a fast Regen mon, 2 Pressure users to pp stall and a Gliscor that can Sponge hits, take knock offs and status moves.

In my opinion, being "forced" to run Ice/Boltbeam is not really an argument, because boltbeam by itself is just a really good offensive coverage, with Ice hitting the top types very effectively, I cant really think of any "random Ice Punches" that are specifically for Gliscor - maybe Okidogi but i feel like that is just the Issue with Poison atm. And im sorry Poison users, while i can see that Gliscor is an annoying mon to deal with, i dont think that this should be a reason to ban it - because i think in the current meta we have a lot of those mons we have to account for on some typings - its just how Monotype sometimes is. Fluttermane, Archaludon, Meowscarada, Ceruledge, Scizor, Ogerpon create a similiar Problem for some other types (forcing some mons/moves onto your team)

Moveset wise, gliscor runs into a bit of an issue imo - and im just looking at this from a flying Team perspective. Realistically you always run Protect+EQ and then you have kind of a problem. Toxic, Knock Off, SD, SR are all moves you kinda want, but cannot fit.
Without SR you either, have to run Flying without SR, which limits your progress, and makes some Matchups very hard - you technically can run Skram, but i just think its not as good, because that means your defensive core will be very weak into some mu (with double steel birbs). Without Toxic, you are way to passive, and get used as setup fodder for some things like - Bulkarona, Ogerpons, Valiant etc. Without SD, you are passive too and some mons appreciate that, like Opposing SD Gliscor, CM Hatterene, anything with a sub, steel birbs etc. Without Knock off (protect, EQ, Toxic, Sr) you just get walled by the Mono Balloon Steels, Steel birbs, Hatterene, Opposing Gliscor, Flying types with substitute etc.

From a tiering Policy point of view i would argue that it isnt broken, it isnt uncompetetive but i think the point we need to think about is, is it unhealthy? And thats purely subjective, and there isnt really a right or wrong answer imo.

• These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
• This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.

That being said, i do understand where the arguments for a ban are coming from. Gliscor does amplify an already strong defensive backbone on Flying to the point where some matchups can feel extremely one dimensional. The combination of Poison Heal, immunity to status, Knock Off absorption, and consistent recovery allows it to sit on a huge portion of the metagame with very little risk. When paired with two Pressure users and a Regenerator pivot, it often leads to game states that revolve more around PP stalling and attrition than proactive play. From that perspective, I can see why some players feel that it pushes the boundaries of whats considered healthy - not because its broken or unbeatable, but because it drags the pace of games and limits meaningful interaction.

Overall, I dont think Gliscor reaches the point of being truly unhealthy for the metagame. While it does contribute to some slow and repetitive game states on Flying, those situations arise more from the overall defensive structure of the type rather than from Gliscor itself. Its a strong piece that complements its teammates well, but it also comes with notable trade offs, both in its moveset limitations and in how it can be exploited by certain offensive threats/sets or matchups.
If we’re discussing elements that might be "unhealthy" there are definitely other pokemon (or items) that have a stronger case right now. Gliscor, in comparison, feels like a piece that enables a specific defensive style rather than something that inherently limits creativity or skillful play overall. So while I can understand why some players find it frustrating, I dont believe it warrants tiering action on its own. Id support a suspect because it also helps to get a better feel for what people think about Gliscor and get a clearer picture, but I would likely vote against a ban personally.

(Note: After writing all of this, theres the Heat Rock suspect, which imo is a bit more justified then a Gliscor Suspect so make sure to get your reqs!)

 

[Rio Vidal]

Heat Rock Suspect is up! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-monotype-suspect-12-midnight-sun-heat-rock-suspect-test.3773273/

 

[ArkenCiel]

Sweet, Heat Rock can get removed. With that said, Gliscor used Protect! It'll be available for the entirety of MWP and we'll have another tour to see whether or not it even has an unhealthy effect on the metagame.

 

[Lithuanian Newbie]

First of all - while there are some points that i agree with, i have to disagree with others.

Please list out the direct points you agree with and disagree with so we can understand your stance better. Most of your post is littered with "in my opinion" and is generally ambiguous

We can all agree that Gliscor by itself isnt broken or... uncompetetive i guess, what makes it so frustrating to deal with is its good synergy with flyings defensive Core. It leads to very grindy and repetetive Game states. Flying has a really good Defensive core, that has a fast Regen mon, 2 Pressure users to pp stall and a Gliscor that can Sponge hits, take knock offs and status moves.

The stance most have on this, is that Gliscor is broken when paired with its support. What makes it frustrating is Gliscor itself in being annoying. But annoying doesn't necessarily mean broken. What we argue that makes it broken is the synergy it has with the flying defensive core. You describe it as good synergy but we've provided facts and instances and examples as to why it is better than good and rather more of broken.

Moveset wise, gliscor runs into a bit of an issue imo - and im just looking at this from a flying Team perspective. Realistically you always run Protect+EQ and then you have kind of a problem. Toxic, Knock Off, SD, SR are all moves you kinda want, but cannot fit.

The general consensus so far is that Gliscor has a near perfect movepool for its role in the core that it is a part of. This point you've brought up here is inconsistent with the arguments that have come before your response

From a tiering Policy point of view i would argue that it isnt broken, it isnt uncompetetive but i think the point we need to think about is, is it unhealthy? And thats purely subjective, and there isnt really a right or wrong answer imo.

This feels very opinionated. This is all from an opinionated perspective on why you "personally" think Gliscor isn't broken. Please can you debate the facts brought up in the earlier posts

That being said, i do understand where the arguments for a ban are coming from. Gliscor does amplify an already strong defensive backbone on Flying to the point where some matchups can feel extremely one dimensional. The combination of Poison Heal, immunity to status, Knock Off absorption, and consistent recovery allows it to sit on a huge portion of the metagame with very little risk. When paired with two Pressure users and a Regenerator pivot, it often leads to game states that revolve more around PP stalling and attrition than proactive play. From that perspective, I can see why some players feel that it pushes the boundaries of whats considered healthy - not because its broken or unbeatable, but because it drags the pace of games and limits meaningful interaction.

You seem to list out the facts of the things that make Gliscor broken here, then magically move away from facts and give a hypothetical on why you imagine others think it's broken. This again comes off as opinionated

Overall, I dont think Gliscor reaches the point of being truly unhealthy for the metagame. While it does contribute to some slow and repetitive game states on Flying, those situations arise more from the overall defensive structure of the type rather than from Gliscor itself.

Yes, you are making the argument on why we think Gliscor is broken. Which is "gliscor being part of a formidable defensive core & gliscors role in that core standing out to levels of broken and unhealthy"

Overall there is a disconnect in what you're saying and your conclusions. You say you understand the points on what gliscor does that makes it notoriously a suspect for being broken, but then magically arrive at a conclusion that we are all perceiving it wrongly. Please just show us how you got to your conclusions from a facts perspective so we can better understand.

 

[Tuff Tuff]

I didn’t realize I had to go into full detail about how tiering policy works before making my point, but since it seems to be a bit misunderstood, I’d recommend reading the official smogon tiering policy first, to understand my point and stance to Gliscor regarding it.


The things i do agree with:
- Gliscor is a strong mon, it synergizes well with its teammate on flying, has great roll compression and is - when playing against inexperienced opponents - very easy to use. I say inexperienced, because usually a lot of Players know how to play around something like Gliscor, or just the flying core in general, and with great positioning you can break through a core like that. So it gets a lot harder the better your opponnent is.

- Its very good in taking knock offs for your team, especially since you need to preserve your hdbs on for example articuno/moltres. its also excellent in absorbing status for your team and denying progress for your opponnent.

- it is annoying to play against yes - but that doesnt mean its broken


I disagree with the "perfect"
- movepool =/= moveslot reality. While Gliscor has many useful options on paper, actual set construction forces tradeoffs that limit its capabilities. Protect + Earthquake are effectively mandatory on a defensive Flying core Gliscor, which already occupies two crucial slots. That leaves only two remaining slots for things like Toxic, Knock Off, SD, or SR - you can’t run all four at once. Those forced tradeoffs reduce its flexibility and stop it from being an all-in-one solution. Saying the movepool is “near-perfect” ignores those concrete slot conflicts.
Trying to fit skarm for rocks does hurt the defensive core too, because you still want corv - and double Steel is just a bit meh, because you kinda lose mu vs Fire/Water etc

I don’t want to dissect every single point, but those are the main things I wanted to highlight before getting into the real focus of my post.


Now, to the main part that seems misunderstood:

There are a lot of "in my opinion" statements in my post because what I’m addressing -whether Gliscor is unhealthy - is subjective by definition.
You’re using "broken" as the default argument for a ban, while my position is that Gliscor isn’t broken or uncompetitive, but could be discussed as potentially unhealthy.

Lets look at the Tiering Policy Framework

Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

• This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
• This can be external factors; think Endless Battle Clause, where the determining factor became internet connection over playing skill.
• This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

Gliscor doesnt fit into this definition. So i thought we were all on the same page here.
Its effectiveness doesn’t rely on random chance or luck based effects. It performs consistently due to its typing, ability, and role compression (+ Team synergy but thats not relevant). While it can create those frutstrating long games, these outcomes are still determined by player actions - switching patterns, hazard control, preserving win cons, positioning, and move choice. Even in PP-stall-heavy matchups, optimal sequencing is important. (Maybe double protect can be counted)

Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

• These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements, and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate/require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
• These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
• Uncompetitive and Broken are defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but they aren't necessarily entirely so.
  • Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
  • While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter/check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it.

Even though people call Gliscor broken, it really doesn’t fit this category either.
It’s strong and durable, yes, but not to the point where it invalidates entire types or forces every team to run obscure, unviable counters. Poison, for instance, struggles with it - but that’s not unique to Gliscor. Monotype naturally creates matchups where certain threats are harder to manage. You simply cant build for everything.
Most types and teams do have counterplay - whether thats offensive pressure, setup opportunities, or simply using Gliscor as passive momentum.
And again, Gliscors four-move-slot syndrome creates meaningful tradeoffs. It can’t cover everything at once. It’s not dictating the entire tier, its moreso enabling Flyings defensive Playstyle.

Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame, such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.

• These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
• This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
• This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
• When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

This is the area where Gliscor could theoretically fall - but again, this is the most subjective one by design.
Thats why there is a lot of "in my opinion", because whether Gliscors influence on flyings defensive playstyle crosses into unhealthy territory depends on how you personally interpret "inhibiting skillful play."
Does Gliscor slow down games and create repetitive patterns? Yes.
But does that mean it removes skill? No - it shifts what skill looks like. Games with Gliscor reward patience, hazard control, pp management, and positioning, which are still skill-based aspects of competitive play.


but i also want to point this part out:

These terms are tools, not rigid boxes; the primary goal is to identify elements that degrade skill-based play.

Even though it doesnt really fit the definition of uncompetetive or broken, doesnt mean that it shouldnt be suspect tested, but i think there are different things we should look into first (Like the heat rock ban)


I completely understand why people find Gliscor frustrating, and Id support a suspect test to collect broader sentiment. But from a tiering policy perspective, I don’t believe it warrants a ban.
It’s a strong enabler of a specific defensive style, not an element that breaks the tier or removes skill expression.

Yes, you are making the argument on why we think Gliscor is broken. Which is "gliscor being part of a formidable defensive core & gliscors role in that core standing out to levels of broken and unhealthy"

Overall there is a disconnect in what you're saying and your conclusions. You say you understand the points on what gliscor does that makes it notoriously a suspect for being broken, but then magically arrive at a conclusion that we are all perceiving it wrongly. Please just show us how you got to your conclusions from a facts perspective so we can better understand

And that is where the missunderstanding is coming from - i didnt make an argument why its broken, but why its unhealthy. I understand the points your making, why it is frustrating to deal with, what the issue is and why it is unhealthy, But for me that doesnt mean it is broken and justifys a ban.

 

[Nagumo]

heat rock is overrated, i feel like gliscor should have been suspected before that honestly

 

[Lithuanian Newbie]

I didn’t realize I had to go into full detail about how tiering policy works before making my point, but since it seems to be a bit misunderstood, I’d recommend reading the official smogon tiering policy

I have digested this tiering policy that you have linked and it only convinces me further that Gliscor is broken and should at least be suspected

Is this the tiering policy that monotype follows?? If yes, can the people in charge give a detailed explanation as to why Gliscor has evaded a suspect when it directly meets the criteria in the smogon tiering policy pertaining to the current snapshot state of the monotype meta with Gliscor included in it.

Again, i'm new here. Who are the people directly in charge of these decisions and can they give a detailed reason as to why they think Gliscor didn't meet the criteria listed in the smogon tiering policy