Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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Honestly Fairy vs Steel will still be hard without Metagross, because in some ways Scizor hurts it even more (although Scizor is much more managable) as Klefki would take a clean 60% from a boosted Bullet Punch, so playing well and weakening it beforehand or trapping it with Magnezone will still make the Fairy team struggle.

But like I said, Scizor is still pretty killable, as things like Clefable and Togekiss can live bullet punches behind screens and easily OHKO or severely cripple Scizor, and yeah Klefki always has the option to use foul play. There's also the option to use unaware Clefable to ensure that it always checks Scizor. Without Metagross, the Fairy player has a good chance to win if they play well and weaken the team to the point where Belly Drum Azumarill can clean up the game, and there's always the possibility of Scarf Togekiss or Stallbreaker Togekiss to sweep as well.
 
For the last discussion about M-Zard X, i didn't see it, apologize.
The thing is he is such a pain for a type who doesn't need to be good (like say before, M-Altaria and Gyarados have one weakness of flying type as resistance, M-Zard X has 2 + Wow or +2 DD is just unstoppable).
 
My argument for my grenninja should stay in the tiers is simple. Yes it can ko many things in the tier yes it is unpredictable but so are most sets.Ape for example is a very good mixed a tacked thus making it unpredictable does that mean it should be banned.
The current meta is sandrush the speed of grenninja let's dark deal with it much better. And from personal experience water is less able to hit it hard. Greninja had coverage for things that water has had issues with such as mega venasure ferrothorne and if it stays mega metagross. It is one of the few checks or counters for these in the tier. It does not take any hits and has zero form of recover and relies on constant switches in order to get a decent match up.
As for mega metagross the ban makes no sense with the current meta of ground and flying. It hits hard and has some good defense but where it falls is it cannot take any special hits and zero recovery.

Sorry about the spelling I am using my phone
 
My argument for my grenninja should stay in the tiers is simple. Yes it can ko many things in the tier yes it is unpredictable but so are most sets.Ape for example is a very good mixed a tacked thus making it unpredictable does that mean it should be banned.
The current meta is sandrush the speed of grenninja let's dark deal with it much better. And from personal experience water is less able to hit it hard. Greninja had coverage for things that water has had issues with such as mega venasure ferrothorne and if it stays mega metagross. It is one of the few checks or counters for these in the tier. It does not take any hits and has zero form of recover and relies on constant switches in order to get a decent match up.
As for mega metagross the ban makes no sense with the current meta of ground and flying. It hits hard and has some good defense but where it falls is it cannot take any special hits and zero recovery.

Sorry about the spelling I am using my phone
I'm sorry, but some of your arguments are simply untrue. First of all, most of the mons used in the current meta have a very predictable moveset, i'd say a fifth or so have unpredictable sets.
Second, you say that the current meta is sandrush, so i'm assuming you mean that greninja is needed to deal with ground, and more specifically, excadrill. However, dark (and water for that matter) have access to a certain, often overlooked pokemon called crawdaunt.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 359-426 (99.1 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

There is no way in hell that an excadrill would stay in on a crawdaunt. Greninja is actually only able to beat sandrush exca when scarfed, which means you have to guess regardless (whether the ground player switches to gastro or not). I will agree with you that water has a hard time with dealing with mega venusaur (bounce gyara is the only thing that comes to mind besides swift swim mantine lol) and ferrothorn, although Crawdaunt is, yet again, an excellent check to mega metagross.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 270-322 (89.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 333-395 (110.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 194-230 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You will forgive me however, if I do not sympathise with water's inability to have an incredibly convenient answer to a threat from one of the weakest monotypes in the metagame, that also happens to be one of water's 2 weaknesses. If you look at other types, you might notice that actually most of them have a similar threat that needs to be dealt with, usually using multiple pokemon. In bug's case for example, Charizard-x is incredibly hard to deal with, as it is practically guaranteed a sweep if it gets a safe switch in to any pokemon that does not immediately deal with it in some form or other. Bug however, does not have some be-all end-all check to it, as unlike venusaur, Charizard has the potential to become both strong enough to OHKO every bug and faster than any check with a single move. Bug teams basically have to play carefully around this huge threat, but that doesn't make it impossible to beat. I believe a type as well balanced as water has a much easier time to do something similar with mega venusaur, without needing something that can always be used to just kill it off if it takes a little bit of damage, with very high consistency.

As far as banning mega metagross goes, I hope your opinion isn't too biased because you believe that greninja's availability in monotype might be affected by whether megameta is banned or not. Mega meta is actually pretty good against flying and ground, as far as megas go for steel, and on psychic it's about average. I'm not saying that this means that mega metagross deserves a ban or definitely needs to stay, but it definitely has one of the strongest influences in the meta, as it practically destroys types weak to steel. Granted, this is practically unavoidable when facing steel regardless, as the most common alternative (mega scizor) does essentially the same. I believe it at least deserves a suspect test at some point in the future.
 

Nani Man

__what__ does nani mean
is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
Hey friends, it's been a while now that we've all had to post and discuss things, but we've now reached a decision on a few things, whilst others are still pending for the timebeing.

Firstly, Metagrossite, being a hot topic, was extensively looked at and has its fate now decided. As we know, Mega Metagross gains a massive speed boost as well as attacking power and bulk, not to mention an ability that makes it even more hard hitting. Mega Metagross ultimately puts teams that already have a disadvantage at an even higher disadvantage due to the qualities mentioned above. This is undesirable as it leads to a more type centralized meta, rending Rock, Fairy and Ice even more hard to use effectively, resulting in promoting type-matchup mattering, which as we all know, is something that we must always aim to reduce in order to maximize versatility in the meta. With that said, Mega Metagross, along with its versatile moveset and great offensive and defensive presences, is now globally banned from Monotype. Metagrossite is globally banned.

The second victim, is the popular Greninja. Greninja is a pokemon that can be geared to destroy any single type the user wants, which is something terrifying and really hard to handle for most teams. Some Greninja can run Rock Slide, specially targeting Flying, some HP Fire, targeting Steel, some Grass Knot, targeting Water/Rock/Ground and so on. Whilst this seems like just coverage moves, the access to Protean and that high speed really lays in a lot of pressure and lets the Greninja user solely set Greninja to destroy those respective types, whilst other team members can cover other weaknesses. This proves to be too much and allows Greninja to break cores and in some cases cleanly sweep teams alone. With that said, Greninja is globally banned.

Finally, a controversial discussion that has been spoken about in the monotype room, forums and among well seasoned users everywhere, a Flying 'nerf' has been decided on. The main problems with Flying were not only the powerhouses it has access to, but the great defensive synergy and cores it also has access to. With this in mind, no obvious pokemon were 'broken' in its own right (Mega Charizard X, Landorus-I could be, bear with me), but rather together, which meant banning one pokemon would not solve the issue as it can be replaced by another. This is due to Flying being one of the most diverse types, and the best way to help balance the type was to hurt its defensive core, and the easiest way to achieve this was looking at Zapdos and Skarmory. One user suggested a complex ban of SkarmDos, meaning they could not be used together, however, a few others and myself thought this was too complex, and decided on the next best thing, being Zapdos. The thought process was that Flying losing Zapdos would mean a very beneficial special wall was lost, meaning Flying would have to make sacrifices on the offensive side to cover their defensive side, meaning Mega Charizard X / Mega Altaria would be geared defensively, or other innovative sets would be thought of to cover the special wall loss and electric neutrality as well as a reliable defogger. With all this said, the banning of Zapdos for Flying teams should balance the type more and allow other weaker types have a chance at actually breaking the core reliably. Also, with the loss of offensive threats vs Flying such as Mega-Metagross and Greninja, it leaves the Flying core being stronger than ever. Therefore, Zapdos is type-banned from Flying.

I know some people may be upset or mad about some bans, but again, type-matchup mattering is something we must try reduce, to allow types to be used as fairly as possible and ultimately promote a competitive metagame. And for those participating or concerned about the Monotype Premier League that the Monotype room on PS is hosting, these bans will apply to it.

Finally, a new thread will be posted for discussion tomorrow, replacing this one as this thread is rather clunky and I would like to have more control with the next one.
 

scpinion

Congrats Monotype community! :)
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As Nani said, these bans will be in effect for the MPL. However, our first matches will not be until this coming weekend, and you will not be required to complete your matches until Sunday of the following weekend.

This gives you at least 5 days, with a maximum of 13 days, to adjust to these changes. Here's to a great MPL!
 
I'd like say something: Greninja was an big, very big issue for Flying (Scarf could kill all the team) but now he's banned, i remember that someone said "M-Zard X couldn't be banned because he's one counter of Greninja Ice Beam".
Ok, now he's gone, should M-Zard X stay too? Cause i say it once more time but he can't be checked by all type...
 
Psychic is also looking very lethal now as Greninja was one of the biggest checks to that type. As a water user I know that Mega Sharpedo and Gyarados are much easier to deal with for Psychic than Greninja. Just my initial reaction, obviously I haven't had a chance to play in this meta yet.
 

Croven

certified genius
Well nerfing Flying is, as previously stated, an incredibly difficult task due to the outstanding synergy the mons have with each other, so banning one Pokemon is likely not going to have much effect. For example, if you take Zapdos' role as a Electric absorber and a special wall, Zard X can easily do this while also posing an offensive threat with raw power + Tough Claws. Mega Altaria can also do this, albeit being more heavily invested in special bulk than Zard X, forfeiting some offenses. More offensive Flying teams might use Thundurus-T or Scarf LandoT to pivot into Electric attacks and threaten the opponent. So, taking Zapdos' role as a special and Electric absorber in a vacuum, it can be easily replaced.

However, what I see as the reason why banning Zapdos is the heaviest nerf to Flying (bar some extreme measures such as no megas for Flying), is the fact that Zapdos is easily the most reliable and consistent Defogger found on Flying. Nearly every team I build uses Zapdos to Defog simply because it is so reliable. Without Flying's most consistent Defogger, Stealth Rocks come into play far more often, easily crippling common cores and can very quickly wear down every mon Flying has to offer. With Stealth Rocks in play, even weaker types can defeat Flying given proper plays. Props to the council for finding the simplest ban yet the ban most likely to nerf Flying overall, it couldn't have been easy to do this.

Having said all this, I still believe that Flying will be one of the top types, if not the best overall. While Zapdos may be the most consistent Defogger, there are many, many more that can still easily clear the field of hazards so offensive birds can wreak havoc and defensive cores can wall till hell freezes over. Some examples include Togekiss and Skarmory (I've been wanting to toy around with Dragonite and Zard X as well), both of which I have either used or seen used to great success. Therefore, I really don't believe that this will hurt Flying to an acceptable extent; I see that for a week or so, Flying will drop in usage, and maybe newer players will struggle to 6-0 other newer players using Flying without experience. After this, the more experienced Flying users will easily find replacements for Zapdos and move on with the meta as usual, and they won't be affected that much. Just remember that these are all my speculations, they could very easily be wrong. Don't think that I know for a fact what will happen, I haven't even played the meta yet.

Regarding the Zard X suspect, I think that a suspect test is fair to be honest. Off the top of my head, I know that it stomps Grass, Bug, and Electric. Types such as Fairy can also struggle against it. I haven't used it enough recently (who can't resist an adorable cloud fairy) to know from personal experience, but back in XY it was really easy for me to win against such types simply by letting Zard X be fat and sit there, and this doesn't even include DD sets, which I believe are more viable than WoW sets in the current meta. Overall, I would not be opposed to a Zard X suspect.

tl;dr zapdos is replaceable, maybe some nubs won't use flying and will move to steel/psychic idk, experienced flying users will still be perfectly fine, zard x should be suspected to see if worthy for ban

and yea these are just my thoughts im not some ancient greek prophet i have absolutely no idea whats actually gonna happen or if i have any idea what im talking about


long af post tho
 
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To be honest I'm not a fan of these bans, specially the Greninja/Zapdos one. While Greninja surely have power, and attack is gets checked by each type. The LifeOrb/Specs Set can be easily revenge killed while the scarf set isn't as powerful as it's orb set, and it's being locked in a move, with the ban of Greninja let's talk about a fair matchup for dark against Mega-Altaria, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir (cute fairies :') ) Keldeo...

On the other hand, Zapdos isn't the real problem on flying. It's just the core which makes it difficult to tear down. Zapdos can be replaced by Articuno/Specially Defensive Gliscor or Gyarados which also creates a difficult core to take down. Also adding to what Firnen said, Mega Charizard X deserves a suspect. Thanks to it typing Mega charizard X takes electric hits, with a nerfed rock damage. The bulky charizard X sets actually gives problem to some types including, fighting, fire, steel, dark, electric. With it access to will o wisp it cripples physical attackers, dragon dance, flare blitz/D-claw, roost it becomes scary. Also by opting roost you have a great bulky set up sweeper that destroy types such as the ones mentioned above.

Edit: Forgot to mention Genesect, what's up with it? Isn't it going back to ban land?
Also anyone else want to ban baton pass?

Types that gained a buff:

Bug: With the departure of the trio, Bug finds itself easier to deal with flying, water and dark and steel.
Psychic: Goodbye Zapdos and Greninja, two psychic checks are gone.


(Meh too lazy to write long stuff)
 

Croven

certified genius
On the other hand, Zapdos isn't the real problem on flying. It's just the core which makes it difficult to tear down. Zapdos can be replaced by Articuno/Specially Defensive Gliscor or Gyarados which also creates a difficult core to take down. Also adding to what Firnen said, Mega Charizard X deserves a suspect. Thanks to it typing Mega charizard X takes electric hits, with a nerfed rock damage. The bulky charizard X sets actually gives problem to some types including, fighting, fire, steel, dark, electric. With it access to will o wisp it cripples physical attackers, dragon dance, flare blitz/D-claw, roost it becomes scary. Also by opting roost you have a great bulky set up sweeper that destroy types such as the ones mentioned above.
Just gonna point out that none of those mons can actually take somewhat powerful Electric mons; the only two that are close are SpDef Scor and Articuno. Since most Elecs run HP Ice so Scor can't wall unless the mon is piss weak and/or Gliscor is faster so it can Roost, making HP Ice only 2x SE. And while Articuno is bulky, I kinda doubt it's taking hits from Mega Manectric or Thundurus. Zapdos is more replaced by MAlt and Zard X in that respect. Zapdos' best trait was its bulk and Electric neutrality, which is only equaled by the 2 megas previously stated. However, those 2 are very, very common so Elec isn't gaining much out of this anyway.

No opinion on rest of post/agree with it. Gene ban would be neat, seeing as how it murders like everything from what I've seen, but I don't have too much personal experience with it so meh we'll see.[/quote]
 
To be honest I'm not a fan of these bans, specially the Greninja/Zapdos one. While Greninja surely have power, and attack is gets checked by each type. The LifeOrb/Specs Set can be easily revenge killed while the scarf set isn't as powerful as it's orb set, and it's being locked in a move, with the ban of Greninja let's talk about a fair matchup for dark against Mega-Altaria, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir (cute fairies :') ) Keldeo...
Greninja wasn't checked for Ground, Scarf Ninja or LO could with Ice Beam, Grass Knott and Surf/H-Pump kill all the ground team.
"Excadrill could outspeed scarf with Sandrush"
Ok, but: Dark have Mandibuzz: Foul play and it's gone. Water stays water for ground.
And once Hippo is dead, it's over for your only hope to kill Ninja (Except Band Diggersby Quick Attack: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 175-207 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

For Ground, it's a good ban cause Keldeo Sub CM and Greninja is nearly unstoppable.


I'm agree with Zapdos isn't the issue, it's the core.
 
You guys need to look at the teambuilder more... ALTARIA CAN NOT LEARN DEFOG. That being said Croven has made the correct point in saying the reason zapdos was good was because it could tank non stabbed / non boosted ice moves.

Suggested Options (to continue to live as a double defogger in a post banned zapdos era)

You may sacrifice the oh so necessary belly drum on charizard x, or you can use something so bulky (like eviolite togetic) to outweigh the type effectiveness, or you can use something 4x weak to ice (preferably dragonite). The reason articuno is bad is because of the rock weakness, if you were planning on not eating rocks you might as well run taunt.

"Shady Business"

The core is the issue and it seems the "council" preferred to look over our past thoughts and not deal with a formal ban as is traditional for whatever reason (not slandering, just stating the obvious). The idea here is that breaking up the core by forcing you to choose zardX as the defogger will alleviate the hard stall that can be produced, while mitigating how much zard x actually can do to your team since it will be a defensive mon (in theory).

Predictions

In the long run I predict water, psychic, and fighting will be very dominant. The loss of zapdos goes beyond defog, simply throwing in Zard X will not cut it because zapdos's typing and stats are fantastic. I'm sure people will see very quickly that running defog on 2 mons may not be viable now, and that we will have to play a sacrificial game like most types to get rid of rocks (im thinking bug/fire as an example).

EDIT: Also I've been meaning to say this, but I am getting progressively more frustrated as to how these bans have been working. We get a topic, we fight, and then bam stuff is gone. WE GET NO HEADS UP of this way or that way in terms of what is happening. We can argue more, and that isn't to much to ask. Just a midway heads up saying, hey, this is how things are looking, how do you guys feel about this? Especially with this zapdos ban that wasn't even on the radar, none of us recently discussed that, and tbh this ban has as much justification as me calling for a porygon2 ban because it creates a deadly core with chansey.
 
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Finally a flying nerf! While banning zapdos doesn't mean too much to the defensive core since flying has plenty of Special walls, it does do a few things I suppose, it makes electric moves a bit more viable, and that precious defog spot has to go somewhere else. And as a bug user, I know how viable having a good hazard remover is and finding new one requires an entire shift in strategy sometimes.

This ban makes flying still really powerful, but I suppose slightly more manageable.
 
So what is next up for ban/suspect discussion? (Does monotype even do suspect tests?)
Genesect would be the most obvious; are people still concerned about Mega-Sableye?
Despite what a large number of us would like, we do not do suspects. Mega-Sableye has since fallen fairly far to the wayside, and the type that it was the biggest issue on has taken a big hit.
 
So what is next up for ban/suspect discussion? (Does monotype even do suspect tests?)
Genesect would be the most obvious; are people still concerned about Mega-Sableye?

I don't think I've ever seen an unofficial tier do a suspect test aside from CAP; monotype has never had one, and I don't think that monotype would be able to have one, even though it seems like everyone in this thread talks about having suspect tests all the time.

Anyways, this new metagame seems to be pretty balanced (Just a speculation, obviously haven't played in it yet) so Genesect and Mega Sableye are probably the only ones to be discussed about banning, aside from maybe Landorus-I and Mega Charizard X after seeing how Flying fares without Zapdos.

There also used to be old discussions about banning Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade for annihilating certain types but I'm not too sure about all of that. (I also think that it wasn't necessary for Gallade's ban from Psychic to be so sudden without much discussion)
 
I am willing to write a couple of paragraphs of text on why, subjectively, genesect does not deserve a ban from bug. Before I do that however, I would like to see what the current pro-ban arguments are. Lately what I've been seeing is things like "It should be banned because it's an uber" and "Oh yeah, why hasn't it been banned yet?", without any sort of pretext. I won't deny that I am biased on this matter since bug is my main type, but I will be as neutral as possible when it comes to discussing this matter. So throw your best (or worst, depending on your viewpoint) at it, and let's see what happens!
 
Tbh, I used to be all for a Mega Sableye ban, but now I don't think it is broken. Sure it is a very good Mega, but Ghost is generally a low-tier type, and Dark just got nerfed through Greninja, so they don't really need to be nerfed. Plus, the ORAS metagame has been around for long enough to be able to adapt and play around MegaEye and simply treat it as another threat to be accounted for in teambuilding. Therefore, I think the only Pokemon that might need a ban is Genesect, but I am undecided on it right now.
 
I don't understand this issue that a lot of people are having with the Zapdos ban. To be honest, I would have been perfectly fine with the banning of any single one Pokemon being banned on Flying, as long as it hurts the defensive/semi-stall core that has been infecting the ladder in the recent metagame. Flying is overpowered and something needed to be done. Flying users really have no room to complain on this matter, because even after the Zapdos ban Flying is still a good type. Just because your core isn't as flawless and hard to break through as it was before doesn't call for the complaint that is happening. Flying is and pretty much always will be a good type, and simply because there are a couple extra holes in your team doesn't mean that Flying is suddenly unplayable, or that it took such a massive hit that the recent ban should be considered outrageous. I mean, the rest of us (being about 90% of Monotype users, from what I understand on the usage stats) have just as many problems with our own cores, and all the Zapdos ban has done is even out the playing field in terms of type matchups. Flying, as I am sure many are aware of, was OP because switching around was simply too easy and other types couldn't keep up with the momentum. Now that that core and playstyle has been nerfed, I want to sit back and see how flying and the metagame as a whole reacts, and other players should too. I mean, I'm not even positive that this will affect Flying enough to make it less good, simply because of the adaptability that Flying mono teambuilding has shown in the past.

tl;dr - Let's all just wait and see how the meta responds before jumping to conclusions. Because at this point I am confident that we are heading in the right direction, at least, in terms of stopping Flying's defensive core from overwhelming the Monotype tier and the unhealthy impact it has had on the metagame.
 
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I don't know if it has already proposed but is there possibility to effectuate complex bans?
By example, Blaziken without Speed Boost, Talonflam without Gale Wings,...

I'm just asking.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't know if it has already proposed but is there possibility to effectuate complex bans?
By example, Blaziken without Speed Boost, Talonflam without Gale Wings,...

I'm just asking.
The bans are possible, for example Aldaron's proposal in gen 5 banned drizzle + swift swim. However, precedent has been set against complex bans because they're more complicated than necessary.

Banning abilities is possible, for example moody was banned, and shadow tag was banned in UU and below. However, for an ability to be banned every pokemon that uses it has to be broken. I could link you to a video of moody bidoof sweeping an ubers team if you want. Flechtinder with Gale Wings isn't broken, nor is Speed Boost Yanmega, so this isn't the case for those abilities. Thus, the abilities won't be banned. And the precedent has been set to ban the pokemon rather than pokemon + move combo, so that's how we deal with them.

In any case, Blaze Blaziken is outclassed by Infernape, while Flame Body Talonflame isn't the most viable of pokemon, and it wouldn't see enough usage to make a complex ban worthwhile.
 
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