Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #12: Midnight Sun (Heat Rock Suspect Test)

[Rio Vidal]

Heat Rock has never really a controversial item in Monotype due to Fire having no way to abuse it that well. However as this generation continued and more content was released and back into this game, the better Fire got and by extension the ways it could abuse Heat Rock. Ninetales returning this generation, now also with access to Healing Wish has been the types perhaps best gift. Ninetales is a phenomenal support Pokemon, carrying great utility such as Encore and Will-O-Wisp allowing it to disrupt walls and setup sweepers, then could additionally grant one of Fire's many setup sweepers with a second chance in Healing Wish. With this fantastic support Volcarona and Ogerpon-H have insane wallbreaking potential while also giving phenomenal breakers like Ceruledge and Cinderace another life as well.

Volcarona operates as a physically defensive Quiver Dance sweeper, maximizing its physical bulk while still being able to out speed key threats such as Flutter Mane at +1. Due to the sun giving it multiple extra turns it can easily setup Quiver Dance a few times, then recover off its health with Morning Sun (which gives back 66%) in the sun. This allows Volcarona to easily snowball into quite a dangerous force especially when paired with Flame Body + Will-O-Wisp/Substitute. Ogerpon-H abused the sun differently, but in still quite a strong manor. With the boost of the sun and being at +2 attack, Ogerpon-H could fire off Ivy Cudgel's that can pick up OHKO's against physical tanks such as Archaludon. Additionally, its STAB Power Whip can cover even bulky neutral walls such as Toxapex with minor chip at +2 Power Whip. Then it was able to use Play Rough / Encore / Trailblaze / or Substitute to help it excel in a different specific matchup. Ceruledge can easily switch in and maintain its Focus Sash due to Cinderace's support in Court Change allowing it to easily tank an attack and setup a Swords Dance, then recover all regained health with Bitter Blade. This would allow it to Fire off multiple powerful Poltergeists only leaving faster Pokemon as viable checks. While all three of these Pokemon could do the same thing without Heat Rock, the difference is the number of times they will be easily able to pull it off will be substantially lower.

​

That being said, even though the sun does all these amazing things for the Fire type, its arguably not even in the top 1/3 of the metagame. Standard Fire teams heavily relies on the Sun to do what they do best and getting rid of the Heat Rock will be less of a reason to bring Fire, then allowing types like Steel, Dark, and Dragon even further ahead in the metagame. Fire teams can still essentially however keep the same structure it runs now, just with less viability now. The real the players of Monotype have is do they want to nerf the type bad enough, that it'll allow types that don't need a buff to be slightly better in the metagame. The council would like to let the community decide its fate!

Council Opinions

while i dont believe fire is anywhere close to broken, 8 turns of sun allows it to have tons of free setup and boost to its power, allowing it to quickly snowball. think nerfing the amount of turns they get access to sun should balance it down perfectly.

Heat Rock has been on our radar for a while, with public opinion being relatively split over the past few surveys. It’s been mixed in various debates over the past few months with two common threats under Sun-Ogerpon-H and Volcarona, both of which don’t seem to be terribly problematic without the extended turns of Sun or the saving grace Healing Wish support from Ninetales. Given the continued discourse about Heat Rock (and by extension two of the primary Pokemon that benefit from extra turns of Sun, not to even mention other support or Pokemon that benefit), a suspect feels right at this junction.

Was already in favor of an action about heat rock in Fire when it was not consider as a good type. With 8 turns of sun doesn’t permit u to use tempo as a good solution to manage fire. With sun every pokemon on fire can be a real threat if u don’t have a good dragon/water/fire or rock type. And that’s not a viable solution to stack fire resist when u also have the rest of the meta to manage. In this generation fire has access to really good sun abuser (ogerpon/ceruledge/cinderace or volcarona), and some of them can be consider problematic. Ninetales (the main sun setter), supposed to be a constraint, is in reality a really good support mon for an HO, with wow/encore or healing wish. 8 turns of sun is too much for me and that’s why I’m in favor of a suspect of heat rock.

Fire is a more niche pick in the current metagme but is able to highly capitalize on those who dont prep for it. Heat rocks takes the strongest attributes of fire, mainly hearthflame and volcarona, and pushes them past what I would consider healthy due to the ease of keeping sun up.

Weather Rocks have always been strong in Monotype with 2/4 being banned consistently for generations. Until now Fire didn't have enough Sun abusers to warrant action on Heat Rock. Volcarona, Hearthflame, Ceruledge and more are now potentially pushed over the edge with support from Sun.

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Heat Rock in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.

You have to reach a COIL of 3170 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 2. The suspect test will last about two weeks until Monday November 17th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -5). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Heat Rock will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention (however if you want to MSHR is a suggested prefix), your suspect account must have never played a game in Monotype before this suspect test went up (we will know) or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played Monotype before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Rio Vidal, Cielau, or ken!
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Rio Vidal

>>> View the suspect on this page: https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/165 <<<

GXE/Games to COIL

You may use this thread to discuss this Heat Rock suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have. You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects. Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here. Posts that do not belong in this thread will result in your post(s) getting deleted and potential infractions.

 

[cat111ca]

I'm just making sure. if I link a new ps account to my smogon account that is already linked to a different account that has played monotype before. will it work?

 

[Pengairxan]

I'm just making sure. if I link a new ps account to my smogon account that is already linked to a different account that has played monotype before. will it work?

If its already played Monotype before this suspect started, it will not work. Its gotta be an entirely new account that hasn't touched the SV Monotype ladder at all.

 

[eeriespell]

If its already played Monotype before this suspect started, it will not work. Its gotta be an entirely new account that hasn't touched the SV Monotype ladder at all.

i think you misunderstand what they meant, i believe they were asking if it's okay if they've already linked a different suspect alt to their smogon account previously. as long as the alt you use for this specific suspect hasn't played monotype before, you should be fine

 

[cat111ca]

i think you misunderstand what they meant, i believe they were asking if it's okay if they've already linked a different suspect alt to their smogon account previously. as long as the alt you use for this specific suspect hasn't played monotype before, you should be fine

Thank and phew

 

[Irys]

Just crossed the finish line with the reqs. So from here I will notate just my input on what I saw on the ladder and drop some teams that I used and built. Let's begin.




(Utilizing analysis information from the current state of the ladder regarding what I have come across as of 11/02/2025)




First and foremost, Fire is not a type that I personally find threatening even with Sun + Several Wallbreaking capabilities + Defensive Volcarona. Then again I am probably the go to spokeswoman of abusing Dragon, Steel, and any other types that can break the top 3 types. (Which I did an unhealthy amount of times.) However to types that can not abuse the likes of Protosynthesis (Roaring Moon, Walking Wake, etc.) this type can create a snowball effect. Specifically to Flying. Fire is probably the most easiest type to break the Flying core given Sun + Ogerpon Hearthflame just clicking mindless Ivy Cudgel even w/o a Swords Dance. Unless you know Torn is already in front of it. Volcarona is stupid in this sense as it can live quite a lot and setup with Quiver Dance. Morning Sun off all it's dealt damage easily with sun up, arguably going back to full if not near full. Funny to watch Dragon back fire with Roaring Moon, Wake, or Bolt.


Now here are some teams I used during my runs to achieve reqs. They are available for anyone to use at your discretion.

enjoy! (links are embedded within the icons!) :)





Decided on making this from a set vs Ethereal Sword during Swiss. Fun team, very fun playstyle. Hydreigon can and will beat 88% of Gliscor sets that ARE NOT SD FACADE!




One of my best forms of work that I made from inspiration from last MPL. This team singlehandedly carried me throughout 94% of this entire run even on my new account. It's so stupidly easy to use. Abuse hazards, double Knock Off, Band Scizor just cleans given good damage chip. This team has beaten many sets even the infamous fire combination.




Another fun team I made given inspiration from MPL. I call it Specs, Scarf, Band. And just like the previous team, it's dummy stupid to load up and run if you want to have a fun night or morning.


and finally




Now this one is devilish. No one expects Custap Berry Iron Hands at all! This one was a very favored one.




That's all from me! Ban this rock so Fire users can not abuse the same 8 turns of sun while setting up with 1 of 3 breakers.

 

[Dutchum]

Just got reqs. I think I had a pretty good run overall, finishing with only five losses, especially considering how matchup-dependent Monotype games can be. During my run, I faced a good number of Fire teams, and I honestly never felt that the archetype was particularly hard to deal with, even with extended Sun turns.

There’s no denying that Heat Rock gives Fire a valuable boost, especially for sweepers like Volcarona, Ogerpon-H, and Ceruledge. The extra turns of Sun definitely help them snowball more easily, and Ninetales’ support with Healing Wish, Encore, or Will-O-Wisp makes the archetype more consistent. However, even with all of that combined, Fire still doesn’t feel dominant compared to other types. It remains quite matchup-dependent and can easily struggle against well-prepared teams.

For my run, I used a Poison stall team : https://pokepast.es/1099dd5c53487590, which performed really well across most matchups. Thanks to its strong defensive core and reliable recovery options, I managed to win every single game against Fire teams. Even with extended Sun turns, they couldn’t consistently break through the team’s bulk and utility. This further reinforced my impression that Fire isn’t oppressive — powerful when played well, sure, but absolutely manageable with proper teambuilding.

In my opinion, Fire is a balanced but volatile type: it can look scary when it gains momentum, but it’s far from oppressive overall. Nerfing it through a Heat Rock ban would likely just push it further down in viability, without solving any real problem in the metagame. The type relies heavily on Sun to stay relevant, and removing Heat Rock would only make it less consistent rather than more balanced.

Overall, I think Heat Rock should stay. Fire isn't broken, and even if the Sun helps it function better, it doesn’t push the type to unhealthy levels.

 

[Nagumo]

i'm not very experienced with monotype but i just got my reqs so i'll give my 2 cents, i don't think fire is that great honestly and i don't see the hype for heat rock when dragon is like the best type from what i've seen, the only " argument " for banning it i could see is: other rocks are banned so let's ban this one as well which isnt that great of an argument lol...

im gonna vote do not ban

 

[adjustments]

i got reqs earlier and already made a post about heat rock in metagame discussion a little bit ago before the discussion de-railed into whatever tf it is now. you can find that post right here, and i will be voting ban on heat rock. i'm not going to repeat myself from that post but i used fire for almost my entire run and didn't really feel like i needed to think a whole lot just based on how linear the type plays, and the fact that you get yourself sun for the whole game. with 4 less turns of sun the game becomes much less linear and each game certainly becomes less "flowchart-y" or whatever you guys were talking about in terms that. every single mon on all variations of sun fire benefit from having the extra turns of sun and it becomes very overwhelming for the opponent even with the right preparation.

it doesn't even matter which drought user is setting the sun either imo, i used this team for my reqs (which is the one that won MPL for my team this past summer, also can be found in the mpl team dump), and as you can tell it does stray a little bit from the standard. i think torkoal provides almost just as equal utility as ninetales. the surprise factor of sub volcarona benefits greatly from a full 8 turns of sun and is able to flip games upside down in an overwhelming fashion because of it. i already talked about ogerpon in my metagame discussion post and i think ceruledge speaks for itself with extended sun. overall it's just too much for this meta that we've built up and has to go.

as for viability concerns, fire as a type won't drop all that significantly, but will have to have a slightly different approach in building. it will still manage to benefit from the turns of sun that it will get, given how strong of an offense it is, or maybe a sunless approach will end up being better, who knows. that's something we'll deal with when that time comes.

 

[Jahkem]

I finished getting my reqs earlier this morning and I had a lot of fun. I see other people sharing the team(s) they used so I’ll share mine. I used Dragon during my run. My team is outdated but it did great. I ran into 5 or 6 Fire teams, all running the Wisp or Sub Volcarona and won. About a third of the games I played were against Flying and I won against all of them as well. I’ll say now I’m voting no ban but I’m fine with whichever decision comes out of this.

The Fire games were kinda tight in a sense the Fire players had chances to win through skill and I had to make sure not to give Volcarona too much opportunity to setup. Since I was using Dragon, Fire was matchup that I’m supposed to be winning if both sides don’t make mistakes. On top of that, since I was using Dragon, Sun didn’t make that much a difference outside Volcarona’s increased healing. I’d say it was more Volcarona making the game closer than the 8 turns of Sun itself. Specifically the Sub Volcarona.

Like I said above, my team was outdated. But it uses sets that were originally being highly used a long time ago that do well into what’s being used right now, just adapting/rotating sets for the meta. I will say Tbolt on Arch is a personal preference. A Bo3 with ArkenCiel a long time ago made me start running Tbolt on Arch to KO/force out Skarmory.

Overall, it very fun seeing things that people were bringing on the ladder to beat what they expected to see.

Shoutout to Day Healer and Irys. I couldn’t get wins against you two during my run. You two played great and used some nice teams.

 

[Molemitts]

Easiest ban vote of my life. Why should a type with hoger and volcarona get permanent weather? Heat rock more or less allows fire to keep sun up for the whole match without much worry as a type that should be trying to end the game before the second round of sun is even up. Bye heat rock, you will not be missed.

Shoutout to Khahara for keeping me humble during the suspect.

 

[Auburn]

Got My Reqs for The suspect ban, used fire mono

I'm voting for Heat Rock to NOT be banned.

Fire in general doesn't have abilities to capitalize off of the extended stun except for the added Power to the Stab moves sure, but you don't really have to worry about Chlorophyll or Protosynthesis on fire monos, and with fire not necessarily having the safest switch ins, i just don't think it's really a ban worthy item, and from how i view alot of people's reasonings behind it, it's just comes off to me as an item that people just find annoying to play against, and instead of adapting, you just try to get rid of it in general lol
Ivy Cudgel on Ogerpon can be annoying yes, but honestly, it doesn't have scarfed options and items to play off of, and if you honestly let a pokemon build up without counter playing, that just comes down to individual teambuilding errors of not being able to deal with such, the same argument can be said with volcarona as well, sure you can run the sub, qd set, but at the same time if you're allowing for either, a switch in for volcarona to come in, set up sub, and then quiver dance, that's 3 turns for you to be able to shut it down imo along with the choice of moveset losing coverage as well with that set
I feel like you guys are just using the heatrock as a scapegoat for not prioritizing the Torkoal or Ninetales, in which Ninetales isn't necessarily a bulky mon to deal with, along with Torkoal lacking Special Defense
Especially with Fire not having necessarily the bulkiest pokemons for safe switch ins to tank like other typings, except for like Heatran sometimes, but on monofire you don't have as much switch outs to try saving it other than torkoal to tank a defensive hit, without losing pokemon in general.


Now let's be real, Dark, Water, Flying are real issues to be looked into rather than heat rock on monofire lol

 

[Ethereal Sword]

Got reqs yesterday after a very long run (I don't want to talk about it). Putting aside my misgivings on the subject of the suspect, I am as of yet undecided on which way to vote and can be convinced either way. The reason for my current neutrality is that I don't believe Fire needs to run Sun at all.

My basis for this claim is the four times I brought sunless Fire in MLT, winning all of them:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-852259 (Round 1, vs normal)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-860016 (Round 5, vs dragon)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2413643474-xd21yh3p3o27vfxo036vbcqswx4u7d3pw?p2 (Round 6, vs rain) - this game had some luck with a Flame Body burn but with 3 Flame Body mons on my team I was favored to get one eventually.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-864236 (Finals, vs steel)

My chosen replacement for the sun setter was Moltres since it essentially trivializes the Steel matchup while being a rare defensive pivot (Fire type Fezandipiti), but other options like Volcanion or Iron Moth also exist. So then, why did I choose not to run sun? It simply doesn't provide that much value. It is undoubtedly great for Ogerpon-Hearthflame, who actually relies on a Fire type move to deal the explosive damage it is known for. It helps Volcarona's healing, but I don't believe this is all that important - Volcarona needs to spend sun turns setting up and it doesn't affect the more common methods of dealing with Volcarona in Haze, phazing, and Toxic (and "just OHKO it"). I have yet to see a Volcarona sweep that would have failed outside of Sun because it needed the extra 17% healing, though I'm welcome to be corrected on this. Moreover, sun is also a double-edged sword, strengthening opposing Protosynthesis Pokemon like Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, and Raging Bolt. In fact, I would even go to say that at least half of Ninetales's contribution to a standard Fire team is Healing Wish rather than Sun, and that doesn't need Heat Rock at all.

In other words, Sun is good (and the reason that Fire has the reputation it does) but there are other ways of using that slot that are often overlooked and may prove to be more interesting.

 

[zugubu royale]

Got reqs just now, I struggled on ladder (it's super hard to get reqs in coinflip tiers like this where you can run into true unwinnable matchups)
I will be voting ban, not because heat rock is broken, but only due to the fact that clicking sd with no skill ceruledge and oger shouln't be even further rewarded with stronger bitter blade / cudgel. Lets not forget about pyro ball guy too. Fire Monotype is too strong as it is already. I have not played much mono in forever so take this with a grain of salt but I believe gliscor /ogerpon-heartflame/ archaludon suspect would be more beneficial than heat rock suspect.

 

[zIcarus]

Got reqs! Gonna keep it short and sweet, im downright just not a ladder player, i dont have the time these days and i don't keep up much with SV's meta shifts. So im just gonna talk about fire in as much of a vacuum as possible when it comes to sun.

I am so damn 50/50 on this, i feel like fire has some really toxic problems in of its self that just gets extended by heat rock.

You have Bulkarona (shout out my man Ithi ) who just tanks so much and has flame body which honestly just burns damn near everything eventually GF pls nerf LOL.

Hearthflame who can run a few different moves to do what it wants mainly but has ivy cudgel a 100 power move with high crit chance and no contact and the chance it runs trailblaze at 50 power that raises speed, both being boosted my mask and swords dance.

Ceruledge and Cinderace who kinda go hand in hand and I want to explain why. This combo of mons is absolutely nuts especially if you face a type weak to hazards themselves and creates a crazy mental battle of who can get up hazards and can i get up hazards without Cinderace CCing/Can i get Cinderace in to swap hazards. Bitter Blade also allows Ceruledge to sometimes come in with rocks up and heal to full and either get a pick, even activate its sash so it cant receive opposing poltergeists or activate weak armor and run a little havoc before it goes.

Ninetails just uses Healing Wish right after activating sun and now you have to start over...

Torkoal can be a decent niche over ninetails? If you want to run scarf Cinderace for more reliable speed control while still having hazard control but its still hard to get in and switch out of unless you run maybe a bulky Moltres/Talonflame over Heatran to form a nice U-Turn duo and you have an answer to opposing Volcarona instead of climbing to +6 and waiting for one to crit another

These are our main talking points of sun and I am genuinely not sure of i want Heat Rock to go, one of the problem abusers my first choice possibly being Volcarona who just sets up so easily, or maybe even one of each... I'm going to read over other peoples thoughts who have more in depth match up circumstances, possibly play some more ladder under a different account without playing a higher tier type, and maybe try to get more in depth discussion with others.

Have fun getting reqs and enjoy a bustling ladder!

 

[Floods]

Just finished getting reqs and was relatively painless ladder can get annoying sometimes for sure. Not really sure what I'm going to vote yet, but as someone who has used fire a lot I've never found it to be a 'broken' type per se, not even close in fact. However, I do think that fire is unique in that it has some of the most polarising match ups, in that versus types like steel or flying fire can and should win very easily, regardless of the skill level of the player using it, to an extent. In certain scenarios such as the aforementioned ones, you could argue that fire is uncompetitive and promoting skill-less game play. Now this could be argued (and not incorrectly so) that a large part of this comes from heat rock giving 8 turns of sun thus allowing ogerpon h and volcarona to have their way with these types and promoting as was described by Twinkay, very linear gameplay.

However, while I think banning heat rock will mitigate this, it might not attack the root problem which is your ogerpon hearthflame or your volcarona. Lets say heat rock does get banned, and then its decided that ogerpon or volcarona are the problem and one of them then gets banned, fire has gone from a decently viable type to basically being shit. For a type that I don't think is fundamentally really that good, verging on A tier at best, I think a heat rock ban is 1. probably deserved and fine, but 2. I would just hope there aren't subsequent bans. But, if there was to be subsequent fire bans I would hope (if it is banned) that heat rock could subsequently be relooked at. But I am leaning towards voting ban on heat rock, with the hope that fire's main hitters don't get bagged as well afterwards.

 

[Scarfire]

Failed to give my opinions in initial council thoughts post because I was unsure where I stand, and though that hasn't changed much I figured I should still give my short piece on this.

I can't really bring myself to vote ban, I spent the days during our discussion of what to suspect + the suspect itself testing fire w/o Heat Rock, and honestly, its the same shit. The sun turns obviously matter, I won't say they don't, but crux of the issue in my experience while spamming fire was that you're allowed to be super reckless with already hard to manage mons like Ogerpon and Volcarona (and Ceruledge ig) and just Healing Wish them back. I used Scarf Ninetales in all my games and it really was just as simple as figuring out which of your three sweepers dicked your opponent the hardest, using them early game to trade kills/punch holes, then just healing them back up lategame to win.

I don't really know what course of action remedies this, I entertained the idea of a ninetales ban itself lol but I can't see that actually playing out. Realistically one of Ogerpon or Volcarona being removed hurts the most; Ogerpon gone means fire has a rough go for it vs fat ground/water/flying, and Volcarona just turns any offensive matchup into a dire reverse sweep pretty easily. I'm leaning towards Ogerpon myself, but can see arguments for either.

Overall I'm still super 50-50, but leaning *slightly* towards DNB. If it goes I do not care but I'm more-so posting because I want people to question if this is indeed as easy as just banning the rock.

 

[aaaaahowdogamework]

I have just managed to escape running into Conartistry on ladder long enough to get reqs (I used water stall of course) and I am voting to ban heat rock. I don't think heat rock is the most broken thing about fire- I think hearthflame and volcarona are broken on their own, but the cheapness of getting sun turns makes them considerably worse: hearthflame doesn't have make predicts as even resisted hits do absurd amounts of damage. Additionally, it means most types don't have a way to hit volcarona supereffectively, making it easy to set up quivers. These don't necessarily mean fire is one of the strongest types, due to its hazard situation, but fire as a whole having problems doesn't make hearthflame and volcarona under 8 turns of sun fair. I'm apprehensive that heat rock being banned might mean hearthflame never gets a suspect, but a bird in the hand...

 

[pikachu<3]

Got reqs, went 25-1 with something actually broken and brainless (Gliscor, why is this still in the tier?).

I will be voting DNB on heat rock.

The simple reason is that heat rock just isn't that strong. As far as items that boost STAB moves for 8 turns go, the only ones that have caused issues are ones relating to speed abilities--See Damp rock activating Swift Swim and Smooth rock giving Excadrill 8 turns of sand (I'm still of the opinion that Exca should've been the ban over smooth rock and that Rock as type got unnecessarily shafted, but w/e). Heat Rock is generally more comparable to how Terrain Extender currently works, which is a flat power boost to STAB moves for 8-ish turns. I don't believe such an effect has ever been broken in the history of monotype--when was the last time something got banned for a simple power boost alone? I don't ever recall any item being banned before, and I hope we don't start now.

In fact, using Heat Rock is a double-edged sword as it activates opposing Photosynthesis abilities, making opponent's Raging Bolt, Walking Wake, and Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, and even Flutter Mane much more dangerous. I think Ethereal sword has shown that Heat rock isn't really necessary on the type as it is (and for a good reason--sun really doesn't provide that much value and may even boost the opposing team), and I generally prefer more options to remain open in teambuilding than not, especially for a type that isn't even top 5.

On a side note, some of the pro-ban arguments sound mostly like "I want to ban heat rock because I don't like it" as opposed how strong the rock actually is. It's gone as far as for people to call the type skill-less (it very clearly isn't; there are good fire players and bad fire players; I saw plenty of people on ladder struggle to pilot fire properly). I really, really hope we make decisions to ban things based how strong the item is in practice and not vibes. I get that no one really enjoys facing fishy HO squads, but fishy HO squads with polarized MU spreads are not going away heat rock or no.

In addition, I hope for claims to be rooted in reality instead of vibes. For example, at least one voter (Floods) has stated that heat rock trivializes the Fire vs Steel mu regardless of skill level, which is just not true at a high level, even without taking into account potential tech such as Ability Shield Heatran. Trich is on the record for believing the MU is 50/50; while I personally think it's closer to 60/40 in fire's favor, regardless it is very clearly a competitive MU. I hope that, the takes we make in this thread become based on what happens in practice instead of "It feels unfair even though it isn't so I will make unnecessary nerf on a middling type".

 

[Leafeonlol]

Got reqs 30-4 one attempt
Sandless ground, hydreigon dragon and oricorio elec did it for me.

I'm dnb as I feel like heat rock is not the real problem behind fire (if there is even really a problem with fire). I think we should be looking at the actual mons rather than banning heat rock if fire needs tiering action. Ogerpon is the biggest abuser of sun and fire's strongest breaker that makes the type the offensive powerhouse it is.
If I there was anything on fire I would ban the only thing I would seriously consider is ogerpon.

 

[Regiboob]

Got recs only dropping 2 games which is fun. Genuinely could've gone unbeaten too if not for an untimely freeze + having no hands one game rip. Just used teams dropped above on this thread (thank you Irys and Dutchum).

Hard DNB from me. Just to share a couple of thoughts:

1. Fire isn't even the main benefactor of heat rock IMO. I think grass and dragon benefit from manual setters more than fire, which is in a good place as is not because of sun abusers, but because of raw set-up potential that sun doesn't really help with. Grass could honestly do with that little boost; and while dragon sun would be heat in theory, there are just so many better ways to play dragon that I reckon it would be a tour fish at best. Bug could also be cool with slither + leavanny? But that's a half-baked idea.

2. To echo something pikachu<3 said above, if anything, sun tends to benefit opposing proto mons more than your own, with beasts like moon, wake, bolt, and mane running around. All that at the cost of a better item or better mon just never seems worth it to me.

3. I'd like to see us go in the opposite direction and test an unban on smooth rock. I'm relatively new to the tier so I don't know if this has been done before or if this is gonna be a popular sentiment, but I can't imagine sand being all that strong in gen 9 and feel like this might be a case of an item/archetype being banned in a later gen for crimes its predecessors committed.

P.S. Someone draft me for MWP when it comes round x

 

[Pengairxan]

So Fire posting.
I would first like to make one thing clear. I Personally do not enjoy playing fire and have limited experience playing it. I like bulkier types overall, a truly shocking revelation coming from the Poison main, and fire doesn't fit into what I like so I don't play it much. However I do have a lot of experience (thanks wincon) playing against Fire so thats where I'm coming in from.

Heat Rock to me is not the most pressing issue that faces Fire right now, I think Ogerpon-Hearthflame is overall worse to handle and I acknowledge Heat Rock isn't on every Fire team. However, Heat Rock is oppressive in enabling unbridled offensive hell that can prove rough to check across the board with sun being around for so long making would be checks such as Roost Dragonite or Toxapex less reliable long term as they get ran over by an all out assault of Fire-type moves and its removal would help remove one of the most infuriating parts of Fire for me at least.

I'm also not on board with Heat Rock being that big of a boon to proto mons. Most are already played on types that are well equipped to handle fire.
Notably: and See most of their play in high level on Dragon (Moon Dark is rare and Elec is viewed as a joke by most people). on Ground is usually Scarf and is just clicking Headlong rush anyway, and on Fairy feels less scary than Belly Drum Azumarill, but that might just be me. Oh and but Hydro Steam shits on you anyway if you run Sun, Heat Rock or not. This only leaves two relevant Protosynthesis mons and while I haven't played Ghost V Fire or seen it much, Fighting V Fire feels hella bad for Fighting due to just how overwhelming the offensive side is with Tusks Defense boost not being able to offset the damage boost everything else gets.


In non Heatrock related stuff:

3. I'd like to see us go in the opposite direction and test an unban on smooth rock. I'm relatively new to the tier so I don't know if this has been done before or if this is gonna be a popular sentiment, but I can't imagine sand being all that strong in gen 9 and feel like this might be a case of an item/archetype being banned in a later gen for crimes its predecessors committed.

Ground is viewed by most people as generally strong being around top 5~6 with Sand Rush Excadrill (the reason Smooth Rock is banned) still being a very good mon. Not every-type has the luxury of a Ground immunity (notably types like Ghost, Fighting, and Psychic lacking a viable immunity outside of running Air Balloon) and Jolly Excadrill in Sand outspeeds everything slower than Choice Scarf Flutter Mane (which is everything outside of Scarf Mane, Scarf Dragapult, and setup sweepers that hit base 89 or higher like Volcarona and Galarian Moltres if you let them get to +2 speed.)

 

[Wincon]

After maybe 5 or 6 attempts I finally locked in and got my reqs with Water. I tried to do it with fire initially, but I was having issues with landing my moves and lost games by missing Fire Blasts, Power Whips and Pyro Balls.

I will be voting Do Not Ban. While fire is insanely powerful, with being able to abuse 8 turns of sun, it needs those extra turns to function IMO. Unlike water, Fire cannot manage its weather turns as effectively. Its one chlorophyll user is also a lot slower than a slew of common scarfers in the tier and it is also very frail, which makes it inconsistent in being able to sweep under sun. Even ground, which has similar issues managing sand turns, has a sand sweeper that can knock out tons of Pokemon with only minor chip damage, while also outspeeding pretty much everything, besides scarf dragapult.

Banning Heat Rock would effectively kill the type IMO. As shown in tour, and by usage on the ladder, Fire without sun is NOT good and hard loses vs a TON of matchups without it. Fire does not have good pivots that actually benefit the type vs its matchups in general. I’ve heard people float the idea of using pokemon like eject button Ninetails to remedy the pivoting issue, but this is an awful band-aid solution and I think the banning of heat rock will just cause fire usage and viability to drop off a cliff.

The real problem and the best abusers of sun on fire is what I think should be looked at, NOT HEAT ROCK itself. I would be on board with an Ogerpon Hearthflame or a Volcarona suspect (and subsequent ban) rather than a Heat Rock ban. I think fire relies too heavily on heat rock to function and the banning of it would doom it to unviability, especially if later on a Volcarona/Ogerpon suspect is added in addition to a Heat Rock ban, as I doubt Heat Rock would be resuspected. If Heat Rock gets banned, so be it, but I would not support further tiering action against fire after a Heat Rock ban. I think Volcarona and Ogerpon more so are the problems and would support a ban of either but, NOT in addition to a Heat Rock ban.

 

[cpt.kraken]

I've got my reqs pretty early with an easy run if I don't count fighting 1 v 2 (your oppo + RNG every turn … especially when you don't have MU).

To be honest, I've always wanted a heat rock ban for justice about different weather rocks and the only point of view i really feel i connect is the one from Scarfire even if leaning a little bit more into ban vote but like 51/49.

I could see a Ninetales ban since it's the best support mon and every time I am seeing a Torkoal build, it really lacks everything (or you are Wincon trying to make band badbunny Cinderace works and play unoptimize fire). Ninetales provides sun, duh, but also Will-O-Wisp, Encore and more importantly Healing Wish. With a great speedtier (not awesome but nice) outspeeding Urshifu-R , it's really the best support for the squad.

I've tried a 2nd run with only fire to prove something to Wincon and stopped at 14-0. So fire, even at low ladder is more do you know how to HO and burn everything or no. There are not a lot of room for creativity in sun fire but it works really well. It's more scarf / hdb Ninetales , exact spread on Heatran , power whip / horn leech Firepon . Even Bulkyrona , at least on ladder, can only have 1 set and it's the substitute one so dragon -less becomes a formality. And no Roaring Moon isn't such a threat since you fish burn with Heatran and makes the moon weaks against the sun (i'm becoming a writer) (I wanted to put a replay but can't find one) so Bulkyrona ends up sweeping at the end once Hoodra and Moon are burned. You fear hazards but you play so fast games that most of the time, you use the stack hazard turn to setup a swords dance / quiver dance and kill half of the foe's team.

PS : I genuinely think Firepon is dumb and Bulkyrona helps so much to win some games but sun help them to deal damages or setting up and they're kinda mandatory to not crave a tomb for the fire type.

 

[hex]

I agree with above sentiments, Heat Rock isn't really the issue here.

The issue is that offense is good in this meta, and Fire has the best offensive tools out of any other type. Firepon, Volcarona, and Ceruledge can all turn a game upside down without much effort.

I mostly agree with Ethereal that Fire really doesn't need sun to win games, though I think the replays he posted aren't really proactive in proving his point (I don't want to go into some long conversation about it here). Yea, you get a +2 Bitter Blade or Ivy Cudgel or +1 Flamethrower in Sun for 8 turns and it sucks. But even if you remove Sun from the equation, you still have a potential +2 Ogerpon, a DD Ceruledge or QD Volcarona staring at you in team preview. Sun primarily helps vs Ground and Water as you can flip the weather in your favor, but realistically the actual STAB boost that Sun gives is only helpful vs Ground and neutral MU's where Fire is likely to win them anyway via a lack of resists. Types that already resist Fire don't care much about the STAB boost.

HO/Offense teams compound a bunch of offensive pieces to overwhelm shared checks. A lot of types just don't have access to a bunch of fire resists which mean that even without Sun, Fireponledgearona are all gonna spin a game in their favor just by spamming setup and chipping everything until one of them eventually wins. I don't think Ninetales is the problem either as Fire can function just as well with Torkoal. The utility is nice for sure but not really the primary issue here at all.

(HOT TAKE INCOMING) I don't want to derail too much as I know this is a Heat Rock suspect but this suspect is a lot more layered than just Heat Rock so I believe that Ceruledge is probably the most broken element here. Firepon and Volcarona have to pick and choose their matchups. Firepon wants to use a lot of different moves (Play Rough, Superpower, Horn Leech, Power Whip maybe...., Trailblaze) which makes it have a lot of oppurtunity cost. Volcarona has a similar issue @ oppurtunity cost though to a lesser degree and it's a bit easier to pick out as problematic compared to Firepon. Ceruledge IMO is just insane cuz you force your opponent to not use physical moves which can make Ceruledge gain pretty favorable sequences without any effort. Factor in that it has SD and a recovery move to potentially regain it's Sash if you aren't able to break it AND priority, I'm surprised more people don't really see it as a big issue with Fire. I think one of these 3 mons needs to go as they are the main troublemakers and would keep Fire in a relatively healthy place with a ban.

All of this is to say I don't think that banning Heat Rock attacks the root of the problem.

Lets say heat rock does get banned, and then its decided that ogerpon or volcarona are the problem and one of them then gets banned, fire has gone from a decently viable type to basically being shit.

Basically this