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Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 5 - Spider-Man [Sticky Web Suspect Test]

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Hi, it's me, the guy on camera being a fucking fraud and having literally no idea what I'm doing! In my defense, I've never played a game of Natdex Ubers (of either this or gen 8) of my life until yesterday evening, and I haven't made a serious push on any ladder for probably half a year. The rust is, uh, showing.

I say this to agree with the above point that this ladder is free, because I, as of about 45 minutes ago, have reqs. I'm a better player than this one game shows, I promise, but obviously I did this climb pretty completely on autopilot. This level of gameplay absolutely has not flied for me when I've tried to get reqs for other suspect tests in the past (See: my complete and utter failure to qualify for the BW OU Reuniclus suspect vote last year, a tier I actually understand). I'd like to think of myself as a good player, but I genuinely think it's alarming that I now have a vote here- I am still nowhere near the caliber of player who should be able to walk into a tier I've never played before and faceroll my way into 2980 COIL.

In other words, the Natdex Ubers ladder feels like a deeply unserious way to learn or analyze the Natdex Ubers metagame. (See: I still don't know wtf the point of Rocky Helmet Deoxys-S is. Are you supposed to run Psycho Boost over Magic Coat and break Smeargle sash so they die when they attempt to click Nuzzle?) I would agree with the point that nitpicking random replays from the ladder is a fairly useless sign of what is good or bad. I would also say that this sort of automatically discounts my own opinion, since I feel as though I barely have any clue of what actual top players are doing.

Nevertheless, the rules of this suspect apparently dictate that my COIL licenses me to have an opinion about Sticky Web. I am leaning ban, because my experience playing this tier has been fairly terrible? Of course, part of this is just because half the ladder players are running shitmons, but even the decent games I've played have simply not been very fun. I don't think I've ever walked into a tier and had this bad of a reaction in a long time: maybe I'm doing it to myself since I'm playing HO, but still, I don't want to accept "Sticky Web is not an overpowered archetype" as an argument to keep it around when it seems like a very centralizing archetype, and the banning of Sticky Web seems like a start towards making this format less counter-team heavy and generally coinflippy. Further discussion... well, I should probably leave it to players who actually know how this metagame has operated for years.

EDIT: I should mention, Mewtwo, I loaded up the wrong fucking sample team when I matched into you. I had never played that thing before in my life and had literally no clue what my sets were. That... should explain something.
I completely agree with your points. I can theoretically see an outcome where Webs doesn't end up destroying the meta, however I cannot see one where the solution doesn't consist of increasing both this tier's teambuilder strain and meta centralization to an even greater extent than it is currently at now.

Despite what it may have originally been intended for, Ubers hasn't—on a functional level—been regarded solely as a banlist for broken OU Pokémon since Mega Rayquaza was initially exiled from the Standard format back in ORAS. We do not have to put up with unbalanced, uncompetitive, or unhealthy mechanics (within reason) if they are actively damaging the game, anymore. What good is it to preserve the old guard's "image" of Ubers as a competitive cesspool with limited to no bans if doing so causes its very own playerbase to actively suffer from it?

Perhaps if Webs was temporary—or benefitted all reasonably offensive Pokémon equally I would consider voting dnb, however in practice, the only thing that it tends to do is make Pokémon that were already high tiers and/or constricting, even worse.

Perhaps for many competitive players, meta diversity is not an object so long as they can continue to win, however as someone who views this franchise not from a top-down (i.e. joining the game for competitive reasons and subsequently liking Pokémon according to their expediency), but from a bottom-up perspective (i.e. trying to get good because I grew to care about the franchise over time): I cannot justify voting in a manner that will result in a meta that is fundamentally antithetical to my beliefs or the identity of this franchise as a whole.

I am all for sending little timmies and their unserious Charizard teams running home: we don't need that kind of unserious faux-diversity wasting the time of people trying to actually improve—however when genuinely usable Pokémon end up being discouraged—or when questionable Pomémon end up being forced upon teams because the alternative is getting 3-6'd by Webs: we really should take the opportunity to deal with the disease while we still can.

If you have not yet settled on a stance and are reading this: please consider that Webs does not leave any significant positive impact on the tier. Even many of the dnb arguments largely come down to it simply being manageable. If your house was infested with pests, would you really not call the exterminator simply because they weren't "bad enough"? At best, Webs can be played around at a price. At worse, it is actively degrading the player experience on the ladder and encouraging degeneracy.
 
Let's just start by saying that I don't think webs is broken. In my opinion, the main ways in which the meta has adapted to dealing with webs - scarftal, mdia and fez-oh - are plenty of good options to deal with webs, and while these require a sizeable investment in some cases, these mons are most definitely not deadweight in other matchups and scarf yveltal, mdiancie and fezandipiti are good enough mons to be running regardless of if you are expecting a smeargle at team preview or not. I do definitely agree with SSS that other options of dealing with webs are underexplored. Of course you can't really just run pheromosa to deal with webs because it gets slowed down and running boots means that its the first mon to deal no damage, but other options can definitely be looked at, like the new rising spinner terapagos or toedscruel. Of course a big downside of rapid spin is that it doesn't work on ghost types and with chi-yu webs running meat beam lunala that means that it has to be dealt with first, and the only mortal spin users are the ho leads glimmora and the culprit itself smeargle. A big option is an unexpected multi hit move. Murkrow guy and I famously use scarf calyrex ice with double kick, but mons like dd kyurem black or scale shot rayquaza, or even rock blast pdon or dual wingbeat bandoh are pretty unexplored. Of course you can just use a faster defog, like how SSS mentioned scarf lando-t, or boots ekiller, but also stuff like defog megamence or mlatios could be very good options. Or something entirely different could be found, like teams that do not mind webs going up because they all underspeed the common HO mons anyways. (many GHAZ teams already kind of do this aside from the darkceus)
Looking at usage and WR the brokenness or spammyness doesn't really jump out to me either. In NDFL, of the 62 teams used, webs was only used 12 times and won 6 games, a nice 50/50. I myself did not use it a single time in 8 matches played, instead going for in my eyes more consistent options (aside from finals, i just wanted to floober some1 lol). And when I looked at the replays, I don't think webs carried the players either. The losing side made clear misplays or got unlucky.
In conclusion I don't think webs is unfair in the current NDubers landscape because the metagame has adapted plenty to webs and smeargle, and there is enough more to look at for options to remove or prevent webs. Therefore, I will be voting DNB
anyways thank you for reading look at my chud son floober
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breezai out
I wanted to make an update post because I have changed my stance on webs and wether I will be voting ban or not. It largely comes down to one issue for me: Laddering this past week has been absolutely miserable. Usually when I ladder, I encounter a large variety of team structures that keep laddering fresh, wether I am 1600 or 1800. A little cteaming here and there has never really stopped me from at least enjoying a few ladder games per day. But with the new influx of players due to the suspect and with webs in the spotlight I have been enjoying it less than ever, and it is largely because like two thirds of teams I encounter is a webs structure with smeargle in the lead. The typical Smeargle moveset is Webs, Perish Song, Nuzzle and Mortal Spin. But with a lot of players running Smeargle, the unpredictability has gone through the roof. If the only web setters were Shuckle and Ribombee I would not be here at 12 am writing a love letter to the pro ban authorities, they are very fair, but Smeargle's ability to pull the most random shit out of their ass has me intensely frustrated. Expecting Nuzzle? nope, here's Spore and now your pdon is a sitting duck against their zac and pogre! Oh and I'm not running Perish Song so I'm setting 3 layers of Ceaseless Edge! Expecting Mortal Spin and set up hazards with NDM? Nope here's Rapid Spin, try again later! Bait Spore so your next mon is safe? Nope! Double Status! Whirlwind, Taunt, Explosion, Endeavor, random bullshit, go! And don't get me started on Moody. Here's a Speed boost so I can Spore everything and when you finally hit precipice blades through 2 turns of sleep I can Endeavor 2 of your mons!! Moody is such bullshit and I have wanted it banned since early last year at least, but this past week has really just doubled my hatred for that dumb ability.

To the topic of unique hazard prevention methods in my last post, we had a big discussion about it on discord and the whole multi hit move thing ended up being pretty much nothing because turns out if u invest in bulk (which both Smeargle and Ribombee can afford) u live the majority of multi hit moves. Looking back a lot of the defoggers were also too large investments to be worthwhile (aside from scarftal, who is the goat), not doing enough other things besides defogging fast. I also came to the realization that many of the "weird" webs counters, eg Scarf Horse, Defog Ekiller, Loaded Dice Kyurem Black - viable or not - were pretty much exclusive to HO itself, who can deal with webs in other ways, such as with Rocky Helmet Deo-S, lead mDiancie or Toedscruel.
I must say I do enjoy the beef Runo and Whatever. have goin on it is a very enjoyable read, so I'm gonna add a little fuel to the fire
Remember what rank this player has, by the way.
A badge doesn't mean shit if it's for a different tier. And for his ladder elo, I've probably gotten higher with worse. Iron Moth, lv100 Togedemaru, Perish Song mAltaria, mGlalie. All shit I've used succesfully at 1760+. An ex-council member famously brought Swadloon to top 10. If a player knows what they're doing, they can get any bullshit up to a high elo, and IMO, mBanette isn't even so strange.

tldr: I changed my mind, moody is bald, and it is always toedscruel tuesday somewhere in the world
anyways look at my chud son again
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breezai out
 
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Ok so I did reqs pretty quickly after the sus went up but was very much conflicted on which way to go initially.
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I was pretty strongly of the opinion that Zacian was the main issue with webs and that without it the archetypes viability would plummet pretty significantly to the point of not really being that much as a major threat anymore, until bumbo pointed out to me that the main issue for bo / balance / fat isn't actually Zacian and that their defensive counterplay to it is generally not hindered too heavily by webs. The problem mons for these archetypes are more like Yvetall and Chi Yu, neither of which are even remotely problematic with webs out of the picture imo. I feel webs does need nerfing of some form, I managed to get reqs mindlessly in around half an hour without really turning my brain on, and this shouldn't be any of the individual components of webs imo, none of them strike me as broken outside of Webs. Webs is what enables Tera Ground Zacian to get so out of hand against offense, without them its much easier to revenge kill with mons like Pheramosa, Deoxys and potentially your own Zacian if it comes to it. You can largely put this steamrolling of ladder down to it being a generally terrible representation of Ubers play, but when I did run into other players doing reqs (a lot of who probably are a lot better than me) and was able to win without turning my brain on, I feel that there might be potentially something broken about the archetype. Even if one abuser of webs, like Zac for example, got banned, I feel like there would still be an underlying issue of the fact that even though Offense has a better time into Webs it's still going to win against most fatter teams through Yvel and Chi Yu, and to be consistent into that many matchups as a fish feels a bit off.

As well as this Webs poses a pretty big strain while building, most of the time you end up resorting to the same few options to deny webs or (from my experience) forced to burn tera on a more reliable removal option or call a taunt when you might get punished for it pretty heavily to get them off the field, a position you likely don't really want to force yourself into. Most listed counterplay in this thread seems way too fishy to want to slot on a normal team, feasibly when are you going to want to run Defog Arc and Scarf Double Kick Caly-Ice, being forced, or even having to contemplate these is an indicator that Webs might not be healthy for the tier.

I did reqs with this :eternatus: :Zacian-Crowned: :arceus: :smeargle: :yveltal: :basculegion: quite frankly poorly made Webs team, I'm not going to make the argument that if I could win on ladder with this Webs must be broken because ladder is bad.

Of the DNB arguments I do find Runos the most compelling and personally see Zacian potentially being a problem even without webs but I would be more inclined to get rid of the obviously unhealthy aspect as opposed to trying to pinpoint an archetypes success on 1 specific mon when there isn't really one specific thing that makes webs broken. (Idrk tiering policy but that's my view on it)

Obviously still openminded about changing my vote but currently erring on the side of Ban
 
I will be voting Ban

As much as I love aspects about this meta: NatDex Ubers unfortunately feels very unserious as a tier right now—and while certain aspects of this (low ladder shenanigans; Karen's Acolytes, theme-teams, OU spite-teams—and the rampant cTeaming in high-ladder) can't really be purged through tiering action: issues pertaining to the flexibility of the tier can be.

Powerful threats like Zygarde, Zacian, Yveltal, Dragon Dance Necrozma, and Tera Normal Double-Edge Arceus already place severe constraints upon the flexibility and diversity of the tier, however Webs stands out as a particularly egregious manifestation of this in how little effort or even conscious thought is actually required to pilot it compared to the massive returns it yields for its use.

I literally played a match against a 1700s bronzed player where the optimal strategy was to spam ineffective Groundceus Judgment into their Yveltal to wait out their taunt because I could immediately tell that their eyes glazed over and went into autopilot the moment they landed it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2494429283-305jf2ym9ee09rs6jwho8wji2g4rqpspw

I also think the fact that a high level player felt like it was a good idea to bring a Banette to that match is further indicative of how powerful this strategy is. While most team structures have to fill each slot carefully to avoid getting steamrolled/stalled by the opposing team: this guy—in the same centralized environment—had the flexibility to run a literal unviable Pokémon because at that point, going 1 for 1 against the opponent at best, kind of does become worth it when said one Pokémon from their opponent's team may very well have been the only opposing Pokémon either not yet affected by—or immune to the effect of Webs, leaving them with little to nothing to oppose their autopilot flowchart-sweep.

I really want to take this tier seriously—and I do believe that it has the potential to become an incredible tier—however in its present state, there are quite a few things holding it back from reaching that status, and since we're on the topic of Webs—which is one of them: we should start by purging it promptly.

Ban.
Why do you think I only used this team to score 1700 points?I have five teams, and I will take turns using them for fun.
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Long time hiatus, came back just to get the reqs for this suspect. I will be voting ban.

I am usually not a fan of bans in the Uber metagame, unless it is something truly egregious such as Koraidon, Miraidon, Calyrex-S or MegaRay, because it is against the essence of Ubers, a tier where the most powerful legendaries battle each other. I was one of the only one to argue against Xerneas' ban, as it was indeed overcentralizing but bearable for an Uber metagame, even if the metagame got better (as in more enjoyable) afterwards.

What about Sticky Web then? I really resonate with the arguments that unfuuny provided. Smeargle is absolute bullshit. Sticky Web is the new Deo-S/PDon/Darkrai/Ekiller/Xerneas/MegaMence from ORAS. I don't think Ribombee or Shuckle have the same impact as Smeargle on the success of Sticky Web, but frankly, we've seen enough, it has to go. No matter how you think outside the box to try to counter it, no matter the playstyle, your team becomes worse against non Sticky Web teams. HO? Sticky Web traditionnally countered this, and imo still have favorable odds against newer builds. Boots? Now you miss some crucial KOs against bulkier teams. Stall? Chi-Yu feasts on it. Sticky Web mirror? Team with Terapagos wins. Mega-Diancie? Just lead Zacian-C and you more often than not win the game on the spot against such builds. Trick Room? Ok you got me, that's one negative matchup.

Yveltal, Zacian, Double Edge Arceus and Chi-Yu in no particular order are the most problematic Pokemon on Webs. Yveltal's taunt wins the game for Webs, and Dark Pulse flinches steal it in case it wasn't winning. 0/0 Kyogre isn't taking 2 Dark Pulses, and 248/0 is 3HKO'd, meaning that POgre cannot switch in, be flinched, and win the interaction, not to mention only Origin Pulse with its shaky accuracy guarantee the KO. Zacian is overwhelming to deal with, as unless you play Dondozo you cannot afford to let it get a free turn, meaning no Defog. Otherwise, your Landorus-T team is staring down a +2 Zacian. Yes you removed Defog, but at what cost? Also, I digress a bit here, but TB Ground Zacian is one of the hardest Pokemon to take into account in the teambuilding process, and imo should be looked at.

However, Double Edge Arceus and Chi-Yu are monsters. They just steamroll through everything with one boost. They're the one who make Webs as consistent as it can be against bulkier structures.

I didn't want to use Webs for reqs, so I used this. I'm proud to say I haven't lost once against Webs with this team during my run thanks to the weird Kyogre moveset, and the three strong priority moves, while out-offensing any HO, breaking through balance and still having a decent matchup against stall. Team is not without weaknesses, though, namely Recover Offensive Eternatus or most POgre. Lost once against TR and PsySpam (understandably so). Not too shabby I think.
 
I am voting ban.

First of all, I would like to say I agreed with a lot of what Bumboclaat said in his post not only about what constitutes a healthy metagame, but also what can be considered reasonable counterplay, so go see his post, it was very insightful.

However, I would like to address some of the counter play measures he mentioned.

:Rocky-Helmet: :Deoxys-Speed: While I agree this is the most reliable lead set for Deoxys-S to beat Smeargle, playing this matchup is also incredibly frustrating without any attacking moves. Nuzzle can completely screw over the matchup thanks to paralysis. If the opponent is running Moody, a speed boost can mess up the matchup. While this isn’t common anymore, if they’re running Stone Axe, they can force a net positive trade in terms of hazards. If you do choose to run an attacking move, you lose the ability to stack double hazards. When I used to spam HO using this set, the greatest frustration was always playing a matchup into webs where yes, you could somewhat reliably lead against Smeargle, but was still giving the webs team a safer matchup.

:Choice-Scarf: :Yveltal: So, this is probably the easiest and most consistent webs answer to slot, as Bumboclaat said, and has a very good matchup into offensive structures. However, for most teams, playing against literally any other matchup, it feels like playing down half a Pokemon. Additionally, overall, slotting this one the common defensive structures that actually want to run it can be incredibly frustrating since it's a dark type that competes with Arceus-Dark for a slot. However, while Scarf Yveltal has a better matchup into offensive structures, it loses to Unecro and completely flops into stall, making it hard to justify.

:Diancie-Mega: Bumboclaat already mentioned Mega Diancie’s unreliability without already pairing it with a Defogger, especially given how it's reliant on not getting out played. However, not only is it unreliable on bulkier teams, it can be tricky to utilize as a lead for HO teams too, as your team needs to be sufficiently capable of switching around Zacian counter leads, which is even more challenging for HO. Thus, while Mega Diancie HO can be very solid (I actually used MDia HO team for reqs), the consideration of being able to consistently perform can be challenging to deal with, especially since your options as an Hazard Stack teams are further limited by the fact that Mega Diancie will usually never get more than a single stack of hazards up.

:Ho-oh: + :Fezandipiti: While I can’t speak to utilizing Primal Kyogre as a Yveltal answer, the setup of Ho-oh and Fezandipit has proven to be relatively effective. However, it is further constraining for many of the balance teams that actually want to run Fezandipit, as the go-to defensive core with Ho-oh is GHAZ, which already has 4 Pokemon in it. After a fifth, you have to begin considering solo breakers and sweepers, which ends up constraining you to a relatively short list of Pokemon like Deoxys-A.

:Salamence-Mega: After running around with Bumboclaat’s Defog Mence team a lot, I firmly believe the team is good. However, even then, there are some flaws that, while not incredibly glaring, do detract from the team’s ease of use and matchup consistency. Furthermore, while Bumboclaat provided Defog Mence with an incredible showing on this team, Defog Mence has also only had a good showing on this team. While it does its job, Mega Salamence is also extremely niche as a Defogger.

I would also like to address some other forms of counterplay people are sure to mention.

:Terapagos: Yes, its Rapid Spin is pretty consistent at removing Webs. The thing is, Terapagos overall is pretty bad. You can use it, but do you want to use it? While Terapagos isn't entirely useless into other matchups, it often a very much sub-optimal choice outside of HO matchups.

:Glimorra: It gets Mortal Spin and Mud Shot to deal with Smeargle and will set Toxic Spikes if it’s Nuzzled. However, outside of a vacuum, Webs really isn’t that worried about setting Webs here. Webs teams nearly always run a Steel type in the form of Zaican or Necrozma-DM. Additionally, the very common Yveltal completely ignores Toxic Spikes and Eternatus isn’t particularly uncommon or hard to fit on Webs. Adding insult to injury, Smeargle has its own removal options too. While Glimorra is certainly viable as an HO lead, it does have problems as a Webs answer.

:Iron Treads: I actually do believe Iron Treads can be explored more as a lead, but at this point in time it can hardly be considered real. It's only going to set up a single hazard and isn’t particularly useful outside of the HO counter-lead scenario.

:Sableye-Mega: I am genuinely curious if anyone involved in the tier considers this Pokemon remotely viable in the tier with a straight face. Yes, it has Magic Bounce, but its problems are extremely stark.

:Arceus: Defog Arceus exists, and I’ve seen it used. Is it good? Probably not. Arceus already has a long enough list of moves it wants to use and running Defog limits its abilities in nearly every other facet.

Multi-hit moves: Bumboclaat already mentioned Tera Steel Smeargle dealing with nearly every multi-hit move and the general problems with Double-Hit Scarf Caly-I. Moving on.

:Ditto: Ditto is good, but it certainly can be played around by HO structures as a whole, faces team building constraints, and has a middling matchup into most other teams.

:Choice-Band: :Ho-oh: Ho-oh with Dual Wingbeat certainly can catch Smeargle off guard, but running Band Ho-oh already imposes many teambuilding constraints. It simply isn’t a feasible solution without compromising the team as a whole.

Also, I’d like to address some of Runo’s points regarding nerfing the Webs archetype.

I do believe it's feasible to nerf the Webs archetype. The problem in my opinion comes from what Runo himself has also acknowledged, most of these Pokemon are healthy and balanced outside of Webs. Furthermore, regarding Zacian, just like its negative impacts, its positive effects in the role as an anti-offense Pokemon cannot be overlooked. Zacian may be annoying to deal with at times, but it certainly is no longer at the peak of its reign in the tier anymore and is at a point where there simply isn’t enough interest in banning it.

Finally, I would like to address Runo’s ideas on what ND Ubers should be from a tiering philosophy standpoint. While I do not believe Runo’s ideas are necessarily wrong, I don’t necessarily agree with them either, and they simply no longer truly align with the reality of what ND Ubers is now. ND Ubers is no longer what it was first conceptualized as. That is now ND AG. The opinions of the player regarding the tier in terms of balance, healthiness, diversity, enjoyment, and competitiveness are all important. If this tier still functioned on the idea of allowing everything broken to run wild, all the effort placed into doing surveys, suspects, and gathering opinions is a waste of time. However, modern tiering philosophy for ND Ubers simply doesn’t follow these principles anymore. Modern tiering philosophy now pursues the maintenance of a status quo by having a tier with a much higher power level compared to OU while still adopting the goal of a healthy metagame.
 
I am voting do not ban.

Sticky web is simply not the issue in the format. A team with a strong enough defensive core can play through the threats on a hyper offense team regardless of whether or not the team is running sticky webs. Sticky webs is primarily an issue for offensive team structures. This is because bulky offense and hyper offense cannot devote enough teambuilding resources to specific defensive answers for every hyper offense threat and so they use threats of their own to revenge kill or prevent set up. Sticky web stops this gameplan in its tracks since it gives the team using it a significant speed advantage against all other hyper offense and bulky offense teams, which also happen to be the types of teams that struggle to remove hazards in the first place. Sticky web is a tool for aggressive teams to beat other aggressive teams so if webs teams are ever too strong it is because the meta was already being warped by other pressures from offensive teams.

In this case the culprit is obvious. It is one of, if not the, most threating pokemon to see on any team structure, Zacian Crowned. When the biggest threat on the the strongest team-style in the format is also the biggest threat on generic hyper offense, and one of the biggest threats on bulky offense or balance you have to wonder if it is the reason for the emergence of an overbearing playstyle. A Zacian-Crowned at +3 Attack can sweep an entire team if it has the right tera. Most more offensive teams have Primal-Groudon as their Zacian check, but at +3 Attack, which can easily be achieved by clicking swords dance on the switch in, Zacian-Crowned can tera and OHKO. +4 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 376-444 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO. This is jolly Zacian vs bulky Primal-Groudon and it's a guaranteed OHKO after stealth rock or spikes! Regular Groudon sets don't even require this chip!

Coincidentally, sticky web is one of the best ways for offensive teams to deal with Zacian since it lowers it's speed enough to allow it to be revenge killed by other threats that previously could not outspeed it, which is almost all of them. This is why I think sticky web is a symptom of a problem rather than a problem in itself. If webs is banned then we still have all the same hyper offense threats and now other offense teams have fewer answers. I would much rather tiering action be taken against Zacian-Crowned than sticky web and it is for these reasons that I am voting do not ban.

*Edit: I got my reqs with the stall sample team, which I think is the best stall team in the format, in case that helps contextualize my opinion.
 

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I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I am a good player. I'm just an old guy who's stuck with just spamming the one team I figured out over and over without much desire for serious competitiveness.
And honestly, IMO, I don't have much problem with Sticky Web. Hell, I don't even have much problem with Smeargle.
The problem, for me personally, is Spore.
The fact is that there's no reliable Spore absorber in ND Uber. And Sleep in general is just bullshit. The risk of Smeargle having Spore is enough to make countering its lead so difficult. You can let your ground type eat a mortal spin poison and still wring values out of it, you can force trades by setting up against perish song, but as people often say the best way to take advantage against web team is to put pressure on them before web goes up, the dog might just put your intended web response to sleep and then you have to roll the dice on whether you get to have that Pokemon for the match, while they're free to set up web and potential another hazard or two.
So, all in all, while I'm in favor of banning Sleep, or even Smeargle, I'll settle for a Web ban if neither alternatives was likely.
 
I am voting for not ban.
First of all I am not an experienced NatDex Ubers player. So what I am going to say could seem pathetic or wrong, and please forgive me if I do so.
Webs are not to the point of banning. Webs make auto losses sometimes, but the metagame will and has already evolved around it I believe. As an example of auto loss in AG a stall team against a baton pass team is an auto loss. However this does not make baton pass teams unbeatable. Thus even though some teams can't pass sticky web you can't say sticky webs are broken. There is no lack of defoggers and rapid spinners, along with leads that can get against smeargle. Also when webs are down sticky web teams or almost every HO team is 5 to 6 or 5 to 5 and since sticky webs lower the speed required, you are probalby at a speed advantage
Also banning sticky web does not make smeargle less annoying at all. Smeargle can easily swap sticky web for ceasless edge can be equally annoying. Smeargle is annoying because it gets mortal spin, nuzzle, spore, and every other annoying move you can think of. As a comparison, Rimbombee, even with better speed and i think a better ability(prevents fake out) still is worse than smeargle.
My first 2000 coil was made by webs but after i gone up i noticed how people even half familiar with the ladder had a method to deal with webs. This is an adaptation and it could be investigated.
I think it could just be smeargle being annoying rather than webs.
Also I am a qualified voter . Im sorry if these points are unvertified.
 
I am voting for not ban.
First of all I am not an experienced NatDex Ubers player. So what I am going to say could seem pathetic or wrong, and please forgive me if I do so.
Webs are not to the point of banning. Webs make auto losses sometimes, but the metagame will and has already evolved around it I believe. As an example of auto loss in AG a stall team against a baton pass team is an auto loss. However this does not make baton pass teams unbeatable. Thus even though some teams can't pass sticky web you can't say sticky webs are broken. There is no lack of defoggers and rapid spinners, along with leads that can get against smeargle. Also when webs are down sticky web teams or almost every HO team is 5 to 6 or 5 to 5 and since sticky webs lower the speed required, you are probalby at a speed advantage
Also banning sticky web does not make smeargle less annoying at all. Smeargle can easily swap sticky web for ceasless edge can be equally annoying. Smeargle is annoying because it gets mortal spin, nuzzle, spore, and every other annoying move you can think of. As a comparison, Rimbombee, even with better speed and i think a better ability(prevents fake out) still is worse than smeargle.
My first 2000 coil was made by webs but after i gone up i noticed how people even half familiar with the ladder had a method to deal with webs. This is an adaptation and it could be investigated.
I think it could just be smeargle being annoying rather than webs.
Also I am a qualified voter . Im sorry if these points are unvertified.
Also I am in favour of smeargle ban. My second most hated pokemon now is smeargle. No.1 is koradion for always missing scale shot
 
TLDR: I will be voting Ban.

Before I want to get into why I decided this, I wanted to mention that this is basically my first time playing the format since the Terastallization suspect about a year ago, and it is very safe to say that the format has changed quite a lot since then. Throughout my suspect test journey, I have been reminded on the reasons as to why I stopped playing this format, and webs was one of them. It is also worth mentioning that for a long time, Smeargle is one of my least favorite Pokemon, so I could be a little bit biased and not as experienced as others due to my departure.

However, from the fact that many teams outright lose to webs on preview unless if they run certain countermeasures, makes me believe that it is unhealthy for the meta. On paper, there are many ways to deal with Smeargle; whether it's with Rocky Helmet Deoxys-Speed, or a Magic Bounce lead, or multi-hit moves, etc. the same problem persists, because with many of these solutions your team becomes weaker into any other archetype. And that's not even mentioning that webs does have outs against these countermeasures (for example: calling a Mega Diancie lead by leading with Zacian-Crowned instead of your webs setter, like how Bumboclaat stated earlier in this thread), and that some of said countermeasures only take Smeargle into consideration as the webs setter (which is completely reasonable because it's far and away the best webs setter.) Examples of mons that can only deal with Smeargle but not the other webs setters are multi-hit move users (Ribombee is faster than some of them whereas Shuckle has the bulk to take them), and Taunt Ground types (same case for Ribombee, whereas Shuckle almost always runs Mental Herb as a workaround to Taunt and the rarer, Encore, as a whole).

I also feel that if webs doesn't end up being banned, then Smeargle as the primary setter will continue to find ways to adapt. As we all know, Smeargle did adapt Perish Song into it's set as a response to DD Zygarde being basically an auto-win for the opponent after it clicks Substitute, which is no longer the case because of the move. However, as unfuuny said, Smeargle may have a best set, but at the same time it still has a variety of options to ensure that webs are set up, outside of the typical other 3 moves that it runs. Whether it's similar alternatives to moves that it currently runs (like Spore instead of Nuzzle and Rapid Spin instead of Mortal Spin), or just outright completely different moves substituting Perish Song or the previous two options (some examples would be self-ko moves, Magic Coat which I'm surprised I haven't seen on ladder yet, Ceaseless Edge/Stone Axe, etc.) which eventually makes dealing with Smeargle feel like a chore, especially taking into consideration of Moody.

Lastly I would like to state that I do feel like banning Smeargle instead is a possibility that I also believe in, as I believe that webs could at least be somewhat healthy in a non-Smeargle meta. But I'd be willing to be proved wrong as well, as I do believe that Shuckle is still a very good webs setter as well, even if it may seem overshadowed by Smeargle.

Here is my proof for getting reqs, and that's all that I want to say.
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I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I am a good player. I'm just an old guy who's stuck with just spamming the one team I figured out over and over without much desire for serious competitiveness.
And honestly, IMO, I don't have much problem with Sticky Web. Hell, I don't even have much problem with Smeargle.
The problem, for me personally, is Spore.
The fact is that there's no reliable Spore absorber in ND Uber. And Sleep in general is just bullshit. The risk of Smeargle having Spore is enough to make countering its lead so difficult. You can let your ground type eat a mortal spin poison and still wring values out of it, you can force trades by setting up against perish song, but as people often say the best way to take advantage against web team is to put pressure on them before web goes up, the dog might just put your intended web response to sleep and then you have to roll the dice on whether you get to have that Pokemon for the match, while they're free to set up web and potential another hazard or two.
So, all in all, while I'm in favor of banning Sleep, or even Smeargle, I'll settle for a Web ban if neither alternatives was likely.
In my initial post I wrote that I would like to see a Zacian-Crowned ban rather than a sticky web ban, but I agree with you entirely about the uncompetitive nature of sleep as a status condition. If I am elaborating further I simply think that the entirely random nature of wake ups is completely uncompetitive and I do not think I am alone in this opinion considering it has been banned in multiple generations of OU in the past. While I think a mon ban is still necessary for the tier, and I acknowledge Smeargle as a possibility in addition to Zacian-C, I also think that a sleep ban should be standard for most competitive formats simply because of the unfair nature of the mechanic.

In any case I stand by my vote not to ban webs and my claims that Zacian-C is too strong of a threat for all but the most defensive teams to handle but I can also see either a Smeargle or a sleep ban having a positive impact of the format in addition to these other decisions.
 
Actually think I changed my mind. I will be voting ban. I don't think the meta needs to be fixed, but I don't think a webs ban would be too bad, and if it improves morale than that's good. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't wondered if a meta without it would be better. Let's take a chance and see.
 
I am incredibly disheartened to see the influx of players that openly admit to being inexperienced/bad at the game voting dnb on Webs. The arguments that I have seen presented by the most recent ones (essentially: "just run stall", "actually it's Zacian's fault", and "just beat their setter!") are ones that they would have realized were not invented by them if they had taken the time to interact with this meta more—but were nonetheless deemed to be insufficient to override the value of simply banning Webs.

Firstly, while Stall may theoretically have the ability to dance around certain Webs teams: considering the kinds of threats that a Webs team usually runs, I am highly skeptical that setting aside 1 slot for a Pokémon that effectively invalidates every other even mildly offensive team not running Webs—suddenly causes their PDon/Yveltal/Chi-Yu to flail into stall any harder than a non-Webs offensive team would. Since I do not run Webs teams, I am open to being proven wrong on this, however as someone who has played competitively for quite some time—and is at least aware of the usual accomplices on Webs teams: I am not particularly convinced. Furthermore, even if Stall did magically neutralize Webs teams: needlessly accepting the presence of a metagame-stifling, polarizing mechanic—simply because another polarizing MU fishing mechanic beats it—isn't a very healthy way to run a metagame. The last time I checked, we signed up to play Pokémon—not Teambuilder Rock-Paper-Scissors where the results of games are determined on Turn 0 because you managed to get lucky and load the right Team into their Team which destroys every other Team in the game—instead of getting destroyed by the other Teams which get destroyed by their Team which lost to your Team.

Zacian: While Zacian has the potential to steamroll games with a greater ease than most other Pokémon: rarely do I find it to be the main source of my frustration when dealing with opposing Webs teams. Taunt Yveltal and Taunt Chi-Yu (why does it even get that move?) tend to be far greater issues in the long run, as the latter is nearly unwallable while the former is extremely difficult to K.O. once you lose the speed advantage, allowing them to potentially chain Taunts and K.O.'s such that—by the time you actually do manage to clear hazards or K.O. one of them, you are staring down at a 2 - 4 scenario where they can afford to spend the rest of the game throwing bodies at you—while you had, in truth, already lost by the time you clicked Defog. If people really want to suspect Zacian, I am at least willing to hear them out, however at least from my own experience, it is neither the most suspect-worthy Pokémon in the tier, nor the most egregious abuser of Webs.

"Just beat their setter bro!": By far the most unserious argument, but the one that I felt was most important to save for last for one simple reason: If you—as a new player—only have as your best argument "haha git gud"—when several experienced players are listing comprehensive, thorough explanations for why they believe the position opposite of yours to be in the best interest of the tier: please take the time to read those comments, engage with the playerbase, and actually become acclimated with the tier before clicking the "Send" button. Perhaps in a perfect world, every Webs player would lead with a Focus Sash Smeargle that either allows itself to get Taunted/beaten down by your anti-lead—or dispatched by some multi-hit move—but that doesn't align with reality. The reality—is that you can never have any guarantee of knowing what the opponent's webber is going to run, and even if you did, they still likely have 4 to even 5 Pokémon in the back that are perfectly viable without Webs—any one of which they could use to potentially make your singular anti-lead's life miserable while they eye for an opportunity to switch their setter back in. They can afford to make a few misplays and sacks so long as they at least keep the damage adequately contained; If you make one wrong play and allow their webs to go up, the only real question is what your new lower ELO will be when it is said and done.

What gives me hope, though (and also the real reason why I made this post)—are the altruistic, players sympathetic to our cause—who, having taken the time to understand the community sentiment and commiserate with our collective struggle, have chosen to align themselves with the pro-ban position. These players understand the impact that the mechanic has imposed upon the tier, and are willing to progress beyond the archaic conceptions of Ubers as a breeding ground for uncompetitive degeneracy—to assist us, the people—in moving forward toward a brighter, more competitive future for the tier. Even if we do not win, I want to take this opportunity to thank each and every one of you who have stood beside us to make this community a better place up to this point.

May our side be favored in the upcoming vote.
 
I am incredibly disheartened to see the influx of players that openly admit to being inexperienced/bad at the game voting dnb on Webs. The arguments that I have seen presented by the most recent ones (essentially: "just run stall", "actually it's Zacian's fault", and "just beat their setter!") are ones that they would have realized were not invented by them if they had taken the time to interact with this meta more—but were nonetheless deemed to be insufficient to override the value of simply banning Webs.

Firstly, while Stall may theoretically have the ability to dance around certain Webs teams: considering the kinds of threats that a Webs team usually runs, I am highly skeptical that setting aside 1 slot for a Pokémon that effectively invalidates every other even mildly offensive team not running Webs—suddenly causes their PDon/Yveltal/Chi-Yu to flail into stall any harder than a non-Webs offensive team would. Since I do not run Webs teams, I am open to being proven wrong on this, however as someone who has played competitively for quite some time—and is at least aware of the usual accomplices on Webs teams: I am not particularly convinced. Furthermore, even if Stall did magically neutralize Webs teams: needlessly accepting the presence of a metagame-stifling, polarizing mechanic—simply because another polarizing MU fishing mechanic beats it—isn't a very healthy way to run a metagame. The last time I checked, we signed up to play Pokémon—not Teambuilder Rock-Paper-Scissors where the results of games are determined on Turn 0 because you managed to get lucky and load the right Team into their Team which destroys every other Team in the game—instead of getting destroyed by the other Teams which get destroyed by their Team which lost to your Team.

Zacian: While Zacian has the potential to steamroll games with a greater ease than most other Pokémon: rarely do I find it to be the main source of my frustration when dealing with opposing Webs teams. Taunt Yveltal and Taunt Chi-Yu (why does it even get that move?) tend to be far greater issues in the long run, as the latter is nearly unwallable while the former is extremely difficult to K.O. once you lose the speed advantage, allowing them to potentially chain Taunts and K.O.'s such that—by the time you actually do manage to clear hazards or K.O. one of them, you are staring down at a 2 - 4 scenario where they can afford to spend the rest of the game throwing bodies at you—while you had, in truth, already lost by the time you clicked Defog. If people really want to suspect Zacian, I am at least willing to hear them out, however at least from my own experience, it is neither the most suspect-worthy Pokémon in the tier, nor the most egregious abuser of Webs.

"Just beat their setter bro!": By far the most unserious argument, but the one that I felt was most important to save for last for one simple reason: If you—as a new player—only have as your best argument "haha git gud"—when several experienced players are listing comprehensive, thorough explanations for why they believe the position opposite of yours to be in the best interest of the tier: please take the time to read those comments, engage with the playerbase, and actually become acclimated with the tier before clicking the "Send" button. Perhaps in a perfect world, every Webs player would lead with a Focus Sash Smeargle that either allows itself to get Taunted/beaten down by your anti-lead—or dispatched by some multi-hit move—but that doesn't align with reality. The reality—is that you can never have any guarantee of knowing what the opponent's webber is going to run, and even if you did, they still likely have 4 to even 5 Pokémon in the back that are perfectly viable without Webs—any one of which they could use to potentially make your singular anti-lead's life miserable while they eye for an opportunity to switch their setter back in. They can afford to make a few misplays and sacks so long as they at least keep the damage adequately contained; If you make one wrong play and allow their webs to go up, the only real question is what your new lower ELO will be when it is said and done.

What gives me hope, though (and also the real reason why I made this post)—are the altruistic, players sympathetic to our cause—who, having taken the time to understand the community sentiment and commiserate with our collective struggle, have chosen to align themselves with the pro-ban position. These players understand the impact that the mechanic has imposed upon the tier, and are willing to progress beyond the archaic conceptions of Ubers as a breeding ground for uncompetitive degeneracy—to assist us, the people—in moving forward toward a brighter, more competitive future for the tier. Even if we do not win, I want to take this opportunity to thank each and every one of you who have stood beside us to make this community a better place up to this point.

May our side be favored in the upcoming vote.
I would like to say that I disagree with your opinion but I respect it within the bounds of this debate. I don't quite think I explained mine correctly given you seem to have a few misconceptions about it. I don't mean to tell everyone to just run stall because a format cannot entirely be stall. What I mean to say is that Zacian Crowned makes balance difficult to run which also can theoretically deal with webs better defensively and can be better at removing hazards than bulky offense. I am of the opinion that balance should be the default playstyle in any format, it is by definition a balance of attack and defense, and my post is generally a lament that this is not the case in our tier and my diagnosis of Zacian-C as the reason for this. I see how webs and stall are some of the best answers to Zacian-C and much of the middle of the field is left scrambling for checks.

I also dislike how you seem to think that other players who disagree with you are less capable at the game or that you seem to correlate these two factors. The established criteria for achieving reqs are what they are for a reason and are already somewhat elitist by the standard of most players. I also do not agree with the insinuation that any individual being less active in the community has a less valuable opinion in this matter.

Regardless I agree that action should be taken, I just disagree with you in the sense that banning sticky web is the correct action to take. I would fully support a ban of Smeargle, Zacian-C, or even sleep. I hope this helps you understand my opinion a bit better.
 
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Actually think I changed my mind. I will be voting ban. I don't think the meta needs to be fixed, but I don't think a webs ban would be too bad, and if it improves morale than that's good. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't wondered if a meta without it would be better. Let's take a chance and see.
Yeah sure, I'll do this too I suppose if people really think the state of the tier is so unbearable. That being said, I still think that not tiering the abusers of any HO playstyle is delaying the inevitable because these annoying HO threats still exist and they sure as hell did not need a viable Chi-Yu or Webs to warp the builder. If we want to pretend that they are all fine you're welcome to do so (I'll will be at least), but do not expect the builder to become suddenly easier to work with all because webs is gone.
 
I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I am a good player. I'm just an old guy who's stuck with just spamming the one team I figured out over and over without much desire for serious competitiveness.
And honestly, IMO, I don't have much problem with Sticky Web. Hell, I don't even have much problem with Smeargle.
The problem, for me personally, is Spore.
The fact is that there's no reliable Spore absorber in ND Uber. And Sleep in general is just bullshit. The risk of Smeargle having Spore is enough to make countering its lead so difficult. You can let your ground type eat a mortal spin poison and still wring values out of it, you can force trades by setting up against perish song, but as people often say the best way to take advantage against web team is to put pressure on them before web goes up, the dog might just put your intended web response to sleep and then you have to roll the dice on whether you get to have that Pokemon for the match, while they're free to set up web and potential another hazard or two.
So, all in all, while I'm in favor of banning Sleep, or even Smeargle, I'll settle for a Web ban if neither alternatives was likely.
A Sleep Moves Clause (which'd include Spore being banned) in practice would just be as justifiable as tiering action on Sticky Web as the only sleep move user of note in the tier is Smeargle, who's more problematic out of Sticky Web, and part of the reason the move is being suspect tested over Smeargle has to do with that aligning with tiering policy protocol as Smeargle, a Pokemon that's typically ZU, being this problematic here with Sticky Web, is already a sign of the move being the root cause per the discrepancy of viability granted than the usual.

There being other setters with different counterplay than Smeargle and still supporting great allies to problematic levels about as much also does no favors, for example, Ribombee being viable just because it's a Webs setter that anti-leads Smeargle is not a good sign either.

The OP has more details on how this decision was reached in any case, but ultimately this'd just fall in the same boat of something I pointed out previously to a similar point:

The thing is that ultimately the userbase favored more tiering action to the archetype in general over specifically Smeargle, and realistically if this suspect goes nowhere (in the sense of the status quo not changing in the end), then what makes you think that Smeargle would be suspect tested (let alone actually banned) afterwards? This just comes off as admitting that there's something wrong with the archetype's impact to the tier and thinking that placing the blame into one of the enablers commonly seen in it is a more efficient / plausible option, which is a misinformed approach towards how suspect tests and tiering policy works, in fact this is exactly why "don't suspect X, suspect Y instead" arguments are generally discouraged or downright banned topics in suspect threads.

I am voting for not ban.
First of all I am not an experienced NatDex Ubers player. So what I am going to say could seem pathetic or wrong, and please forgive me if I do so.
Webs are not to the point of banning. Webs make auto losses sometimes, but the metagame will and has already evolved around it I believe. As an example of auto loss in AG a stall team against a baton pass team is an auto loss. However this does not make baton pass teams unbeatable. Thus even though some teams can't pass sticky web you can't say sticky webs are broken. There is no lack of defoggers and rapid spinners, along with leads that can get against smeargle. Also when webs are down sticky web teams or almost every HO team is 5 to 6 or 5 to 5 and since sticky webs lower the speed required, you are probalby at a speed advantage
Also banning sticky web does not make smeargle less annoying at all. Smeargle can easily swap sticky web for ceasless edge can be equally annoying. Smeargle is annoying because it gets mortal spin, nuzzle, spore, and every other annoying move you can think of. As a comparison, Rimbombee, even with better speed and i think a better ability(prevents fake out) still is worse than smeargle.
My first 2000 coil was made by webs but after i gone up i noticed how people even half familiar with the ladder had a method to deal with webs. This is an adaptation and it could be investigated.
I think it could just be smeargle being annoying rather than webs.
Also I am a qualified voter . Im sorry if these points are unvertified.
Besides this also placing the blame on Smeargle (so the prior self-quote also applies as a reply on that regard), something technically having counterplay is not enough of a justification for something to be fine even in an Ubers context, ReviveCats is weak to Toxic Spikes + a Regen core, Mega Gengar can be lured onto a Pokemon with a Shed Shell that switches then is Pursuit trapped by Mega Tyranitar, Tera'd Shedinja gets Pursuit trapped by Mold Breaker Druddigon... see where I'm going? Counterplay has to be practical as to not compromise other matchups, and the options for Sticky Web are rather limited, and in fact some of them can be played around, which is something you can read further on here and here.

I am voting do not ban.

Sticky web is simply not the issue in the format. A team with a strong enough defensive core can play through the threats on a hyper offense team regardless of whether or not the team is running sticky webs. Sticky webs is primarily an issue for offensive team structures. This is because bulky offense and hyper offense cannot devote enough teambuilding resources to specific defensive answers for every hyper offense threat and so they use threats of their own to revenge kill or prevent set up. Sticky web stops this gameplan in its tracks since it gives the team using it a significant speed advantage against all other hyper offense and bulky offense teams, which also happen to be the types of teams that struggle to remove hazards in the first place. Sticky web is a tool for aggressive teams to beat other aggressive teams so if webs teams are ever too strong it is because the meta was already being warped by other pressures from offensive teams.
Huh? This not how the current metagame is to say the least, more specifically, as the current metagame demands proactive play from defensive cores, part of the viability of their members is often defined by their Speed tier, which Sticky Web disrupts, as then basically every Defogger but Scarf Yveltal is trivial to Taunt, denying their capability to remove such field effect, which in turn also prevents other utility like spreading status, setting up, or using Recover, easing the capability for the wallbreakers found in Sticky Web structures to make progress then eventually win.

Other sorts of offense have anti-leads to ease the Sticky Web matchup, indeed, but at the same time they're prone to being more inconsistent as they often have to pick between anti-leading Smeargle, Ribombee, and Shuckle, which isn't helped by their lesser overall viability as it's undeniable that Sticky Web structures are the most oppressive in the metagame.

Either way, Sticky Web affects way more than just HO, as previously explained multiple defensive Pokemon (for example, utility Arceus formes and Eternatus) rely on their Speed tier to check several breakers in the tier, and the same apllies to offensive breakers that complement defensive cores as to pressure stuff they can't wall, so this evidently affects basically every matchup from bulky offense to stall, with the only real exception being Trick Room teams for unsurprising reasons, but that's barely a part of the metagame as it does little besides having a solid matchup into HO, and it'd also be undesirable to have a extreme rock paper scissors approach for the teambuilding process, teambuilding skill should be varied and encouraged whike also minimizing matchup fishing.

In this case the culprit is obvious. It is one of, if not the, most threating pokemon to see on any team structure, Zacian Crowned. When the biggest threat on the the strongest team-style in the format is also the biggest threat on generic hyper offense, and one of the biggest threats on bulky offense or balance you have to wonder if it is the reason for the emergence of an overbearing playstyle. A Zacian-Crowned at +3 Attack can sweep an entire team if it has the right tera. Most more offensive teams have Primal-Groudon as their Zacian check, but at +3 Attack, which can easily be achieved by clicking swords dance on the switch in, Zacian-Crowned can tera and OHKO. +4 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 376-444 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO. This is jolly Zacian vs bulky Primal-Groudon and it's a guaranteed OHKO after stealth rock or spikes! Regular Groudon sets don't even require this chip!
Your calc shows Zac-C at +4, so this claim is wrong or otherwise a unplausible scenario, here's the proper calc for reference:

+3 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 313-370 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No serious team is using base Groudon either as its Primal forme entirely outclasses it, so this isn't really a point either.

Coincidentally, sticky web is one of the best ways for offensive teams to deal with Zacian since it lowers it's speed enough to allow it to be revenge killed by other threats that previously could not outspeed it, which is almost all of them. This is why I think sticky web is a symptom of a problem rather than a problem in itself. If webs is banned then we still have all the same hyper offense threats and now other offense teams have fewer answers. I would much rather tiering action be taken against Zacian-Crowned than sticky web and it is for these reasons that I am voting do not ban.

*Edit: I got my reqs with the stall sample team, which I think is the best stall team in the format, in case that helps contextualize my opinion.
This is a more appealing premise, but in the hypothetical scenario where Zacian-C was banned over Sticky Web, the interactions to deal with the lead game, Yveltal and Chi-Yu wouldn't change, in fact a Zac-C ban without also removing Webs also means that Eternatus can comfortably take over its place, especially as that'd also remove one of its main checks, easing its capability to spam STABs against any team without Necrozma-DM, which can be easily overwhelmed with Yveltal and Chi-Yu either way. Sure, the archetype would still be nerfed as it'd also mean losing a EKiller check and something to resort to in the mid-game if Webs are being anti-led and thus kept for a revenge kill, but not by enough as the variety of options to handle such sort of teams would have to deal with most of the same stuff as it currently is.

While I do think that Zacian-C is borderline, I don't think that the support granted by Sticky Web is the main reason, and if anything should be a separate topic for another place, especially as this'd be derailing the current suspect test topic, as talks of "don't ban X, ban Y instead" in practice just move the goal posts and go nowhere, thus generally being a discouraged or even banned topic in suspect threads.
 
Huh? This not how the current metagame is to say the least, more specifically, as the current metagame demands proactive play from defensive cores, part of the viability of their members is often defined by their Speed tier, which Sticky Web disrupts, as then basically every Defogger but Scarf Yveltal is trivial to Taunt, denying their capability to remove such field effect, which in turn also prevents other utility like spreading status, setting up, or using Recover, easing the capability for the wallbreakers found in Sticky Web structures to make progress then eventually win.

Other sorts of offense have anti-leads to ease the Sticky Web matchup, indeed, but at the same time they're prone to being more inconsistent as they often have to pick between anti-leading Smeargle, Ribombee, and Shuckle, which isn't helped by their lesser overall viability as it's undeniable that Sticky Web structures are the most oppressive in the metagame.

Either way, Sticky Web affects way more than just HO, as previously explained multiple defensive Pokemon (for example, utility Arceus formes and Eternatus) rely on their Speed tier to check several breakers in the tier, and the same apllies to offensive breakers that complement defensive cores as to pressure stuff they can't wall, so this evidently affects basically every matchup from bulky offense to stall, with the only real exception being Trick Room teams for unsurprising reasons, but that's barely a part of the metagame as it does little besides having a solid matchup into HO, and it'd also be undesirable to have a extreme rock paper scissors approach for the teambuilding process, teambuilding skill should be varied and encouraged whike also minimizing matchup fishing.
My argument was not that sticky web could not disrupt defensive cores it was that other threats in the metagame put too much pressure on defensive cores outside of stall to also account for sticky web on the same structures. I intended to convey the message that sticky web was a symptom of an already too offensive tier and if some specific threats were banned it would not be a problem. As a stall player I personally felt less impact from sticky web being set up than a single layer of spikes while getting my reqs so I don't personally agree with your claim that it is particularly disruptive toward stall. In my experience it's effectiveness dwindles linearly as the opposing teams get more defensive.
Your calc shows Zac-C at +4, so this claim is wrong or otherwise a unplausible scenario, here's the proper calc for reference:

+3 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 313-370 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No serious team is using base Groudon either as its Primal forme entirely outclasses it, so this isn't really a point either.
You are correct this is the wrong calculation and a result of a misinput. I put in +3 on the calc but it automatically added the +1 from the ability on top of it resulting in a +4 calc. I also didn't mean base Groudon I meant an uninvested offensive Primal Groudon. For posterity this is my calc for that.

+3 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 402-474 (117.8 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This supports my claim that more offensive cores have to dedicate significant team resources to dealing with certain threats even outside of webs and that webs is not the inherent issue in the format.
This is a more appealing premise, but in the hypothetical scenario where Zacian-C was banned over Sticky Web, the interactions to deal with the lead game, Yveltal and Chi-Yu wouldn't change, in fact a Zac-C ban without also removing Webs also means that Eternatus can comfortably take over its place, especially as that'd also remove one of its main checks, easing its capability to spam STABs against any team without Necrozma-DM, which can be easily overwhelmed with Yveltal and Chi-Yu either way. Sure, the archetype would still be nerfed as it'd also mean losing a EKiller check and something to resort to in the mid-game if Webs are being anti-led and thus kept for a revenge kill, but not by enough as the variety of options to handle such sort of teams would have to deal with most of the same stuff as it currently is.

While I do think that Zacian-C is borderline, I don't think that the support granted by Sticky Web is the main reason, and if anything should be a separate topic for another place, especially as this'd be derailing the current suspect test topic, as talks of "don't ban X, ban Y instead" in practice just move the goal posts and go nowhere, thus generally being a discouraged or even banned topic in suspect threads.
The idea behind this was that relieving teambuilding pressure from most offensive cores, not just sticky web, would allow teams to address webs easier without having to account for quite as many individual threats from across the field. My belief is that if overall teambuilding pressures were lessened significantly and the archetype was nerfed somewhat in one fell swoop then the field could address webs much more easily. I also think that the lead dynamics with Smeargle are incredibly degenerate and would still be so even without sticky web. Again, removing tools from the archetype in a way that allows the rest of the field to adapt and capitalize is better than banning an entire archetype for the sins of a few mons that cause problems even when not on that archetype.

Finally, understand that I do not intend to be unproductive in any way only that I believe that banning webs is an incorrect decision in principle and different tiering actions would result in a more healthy and diverse format.
 
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Well the suspect is done and voting should be up soon. Didn’t really expect to wake up to a ton of activity in this thread. I meant to make another post a couple of days ago responding to some of the ones in this thread, but only finished half of it so I’ll try and answer some of the questions surrounding ‘the process.’

Sleep Moves – Darkrai cheese exists every now and then on ladder, but Smeargle is the only relevant sleep user. We have the option to shift to a sleep moves clause and that will be happening next generation. This has been proposed at various points throughout the year by a couple council members and a few community members, but I said no as a ND leader so people are free to be upset at me if they want – don’t blame tier leadership or the council.

Personally, I do think the tier would benefit from a shift to sleep moves clause in a vacuum. However, I said vacuum because of context that makes this a non-starter. I view a shift to a sleep moves clause being functionally a Smeargle + Spore complex ban. Given that, a sleep moves clause is essentially tiering action to nerf Smeargle whilst bypassing community input. That isn’t something we should be doing and very likely wouldn’t even have the intended impact of nerfing Smeargle to an ‘acceptable’ power level. My stance on this could change in the future, but not right now.

Moody – This was also brought up and unlike sleep moves, would have to be a suspect. Again, it is only an issue on Smeargle and even then, it is far from the primary issue. As with sleep moves, it is a roundabout way to nerf Smeargle via a complex ban. It doesn’t rely on Moody at all to fulfil its purpose, it just allows it to rarely do its job in situations it otherwise couldn’t with the help of luck. When people have issues with multiple elements of a Pokémon it is the Pokémon that should be tested. Even if we implemented both a Moody ban and sleep moves clause, the core complaints surrounding Smeargle would still be valid.

:Smeargle: Our last survey was pretty explicitly carried out with the intent to gauge community opinion on whether the ‘issue’ is Smeargle or the move itself. Our previous surveys only asked about the move and still received the highest score of anything since Xerneas was banned by a decent margin. Whilst Smeargle heavily contributes to Sticky Web’s polarizing presence in the metagame, it isn’t the sole or arguably even largest factor – just the most irritating one.

Again, speaking personally, and this is speculation, whilst a Smeargle ban would make the metagame more enjoyable to play, I’m somewhat confident that its ban would result in the metagame becoming less competitive. Sticky Web as an archetype would certainly be nerfed, but it likely becomes an actual fish as the biggest benefit that Smeargle has over its competitors is that it doesn’t absolutely suck into opposing HO leads. Sticky Web would likely become a fish into opposing HO archetypes whilst bulky offense and balance don’t get any relief as their primary issue with Sticky Web is the teambuilding limitations imposed by Yveltal and Smeargle is just another layer of bullshit on top of that. Not having to hope you let the right Pokémon get crippled is nice, but ultimately a band-aid. Our last survey showed that there is enough community support to act on the move itself.

Suspecting the absuers – This would be Yveltal or Chi-Yu. Suspecting either is almost assuredly going to result in no action and is a waste of time besides some progress to TC for some people. Yveltal isn’t considered an issue in the metagame outside of its interactions with Sticky Web bar a couple of people and I don’t think anybody has ever advocated for a Chi-Yu ban. Zacian-C’s problematic elements exist regardless and its survey scores have remained around the same despite the metagame changes since Xerneas was banned.

Somewhat surprisingly, we have not really had any complaints about Ekiller. Its power is certainly accentuated by Sticky Web as it enables Ekiller to bypass most of its traditional counterplay, but that counterplay is arguably more consistent than ever due to the vast majority being Tera Normal Double-Edge for a while now. This offensive counterplay, most often Zacian-C or Marshadow, does work if Sticky Web can be removed and that applies to other methods of keeping it under control such as a faster Arceus forme with Taunt or Tera Ghost Deoxys-A. Ekiller is the biggest reason Garganacl is having a bit of a resurgence atm as it is generally a counter bar the rare Earthquake. If it isn’t this set then Dragon Tail Zygarde is a solid check as well.

Given this, if we were going to suspect anything, there are only two targets that have enough support to justify a suspect test: Smeargle or Sticky Web. The results of the most recent survey provided some evidence that a Sticky Web suspect was a reasonable risk to take. Although not universal, the majority of the council preferred to suspect Sticky Web as opposed to Smeargle.

:Zacian-crowned: When we did the second tera suspect I abstained from that slate because I didn’t feel that the support was there to justify a second suspect at the time, but wasn’t low enough to vote against it despite being DNB myself. The vote wasn’t remotely close and Zacian-C has pretty similar numbers to what tera did at that time. I’m personally on the fence with Zacian-C, but a suspect right now is a disservice those who want it banned imo because it has a near zero chance of that happening if we were to suspect it now and would likely prevent any future action.

Whilst Zacian-C is on nearly every good Sticky Web team, I have not seen many (any tbh but I’m probably forgetting something) complaints about it being a relevant factor in Sticky Web’s stranglehold on the metagame outside of this thread. The frustrations with Zacian-C’s presence in the metagame are valid, but wholly separate from the issues with Sticky Web. That being said, I’d be somewhat surprised if there wasn’t a Zacian-C suspect test by the end of the generation. If anything, it is strongest on Hstack HO imo due to its near perfect synergy with Ultra Necrozma imo.
 
My argument was not that sticky web could not disrupt defensive cores it was that other threats in the metagame put too much pressure on defensive cores outside of stall to also account for sticky web on the same structures. I intended to convey the message that sticky web was a symptom of an already too offensive tier and if some specific threats were banned it would not be a problem. As a stall player I personally felt less impact from sticky web being set up than a single layer of spikes while getting my reqs so I don't personally agree with your claim that it is particularly disruptive toward stall. In my experience it's effectiveness dwindles linearly as the opposing teams get more defensive.
Against stall it means that Chi-Yu, Yveltal, Lunala, Primal Kyogre, etc. can move before Eternatus and Arceus-Dark, turning it more difficult for them to put them into a status before being attacked or Taunted. The Webs player still has to think to beat hard stall, but at the same time hard stall is rather niche as most teams naturally fit counterplay for it.

I can see that there's a wide variety of offensive wallbreakers that place a strain on defensive cores to handle them properly, but I'd disagree on Sticky Web being something to keep for reasons I'll get to later as you expand this point in a later paragraph.

You are correct this is the wrong calculation and a result of a misinput. I put in +3 on the calc but it automatically added the +1 from the ability on top of it resulting in a +4 calc. I also didn't mean base Groudon I meant an uninvested offensive Primal Groudon. For posterity this is my calc for that.

+3 252 Atk Tera Fighting Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 402-474 (117.8 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This supports my claim that more offensive cores have to dedicate significant team resources to dealing with certain threats even outside of webs and that webs is not the inherent issue in the format.
Offensive Primal Groudons with that sort of spreads are quite more niche as they have minimal defensive utility, as much Dragon Dance Zygarde is difficult to build around as using it also means losing a blanket physical wall.

Using that sort of sets implies commiting to it from the start and building around accordingly, and while this is easier said than done, that'd go back to the prior point of that being the reason they're less common.

The idea behind this was that relieving teambuilding pressure from most offensive cores, not just sticky web, would allow teams to address webs easier without having to account for quite as many individual threats from across the field. My belief is that if overall teambuilding pressures were lessened significantly and the archetype was nerfed somewhat in one fell swoop then the field could address webs much more easily. I also think that the lead dynamics with Smeargle are incredibly degenerate and would still be so even without sticky web. Again, removing tools from the archetype in a way that allows the rest of the field to adapt and capitalize is better than banning an entire archetype for the sins of a few mons that cause problems even when not on that archetype.

Finally, understand that I do not intend to be unproductive in any way only that I believe that banning webs is an incorrect decision in principle and different tiering actions would result in a more healthy and diverse format.
As far offensive teams go this'd just remove Zacian-C as an anti-lead, but they'd still have to spend the same resources as far leads go, as well as having to use worse options such as Heavy-Duty Boots Eternatus so that they can apply pressure to common allies like Yveltal and Chi-Yu, then miss crucial benchmarks against other team structures by skipping otherwise more viable items, or having to dedicate team slots for rather situational options that do little outside the Sticky Web matchup like Choice Scarf Yveltal.

Sure, a Zacian-C ban would free up the teambuilder quite a bit, but it wouldn't really address that well the limitations Sticky Web structures place on the tier, still demanding specific / niche picks to handle such matchup without compromising most other matchups.

This'd also still be moving the goal posts as if Sticky Web remains in the tier there's no guarantee that Zac-C would be suspect tested, let alone banned, while the inverse of a Sticky Web ban being revised if Zac-C is banned (which is a fair possibility as it doesn't rely on Webs outside of mirror matchups) is more plausible.
 
5 users who have earned voting requisites have not voted yet, but their votes will not affect the outcome of the vote.

Eligible Voters: 63
Votes: 58

Sticky Web
Ban: 32
Do Not Ban: 26
Ban % = 55.17%

66% majority of ban is required for a ban. Even if all of the remaining users voted ban, it would fail to reach this threshold. Therefore, Sticky Web remains legal in SV National Dex Ubers.

Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for until the deadline at 11:59pm -6 @ December 19th to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. Voting will be closed at this time.

Votes will be made public at the formal deadline.
 
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