Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 5 - Spider-Man [Sticky Web Suspect Test]

[Whatever.]

Hi, it's me, the guy on camera being a fucking fraud and having literally no idea what I'm doing! In my defense, I've never played a game of Natdex Ubers (of either this or gen 8) of my life until yesterday evening, and I haven't made a serious push on any ladder for probably half a year. The rust is, uh, showing.

I say this to agree with the above point that this ladder is free, because I, as of about 45 minutes ago, have reqs. I'm a better player than this one game shows, I promise, but obviously I did this climb pretty completely on autopilot. This level of gameplay absolutely has not flied for me when I've tried to get reqs for other suspect tests in the past (See: my complete and utter failure to qualify for the BW OU Reuniclus suspect vote last year, a tier I actually understand). I'd like to think of myself as a good player, but I genuinely think it's alarming that I now have a vote here- I am still nowhere near the caliber of player who should be able to walk into a tier I've never played before and faceroll my way into 2980 COIL.

In other words, the Natdex Ubers ladder feels like a deeply unserious way to learn or analyze the Natdex Ubers metagame. (See: I still don't know wtf the point of Rocky Helmet Deoxys-S is. Are you supposed to run Psycho Boost over Magic Coat and break Smeargle sash so they die when they attempt to click Nuzzle?) I would agree with the point that nitpicking random replays from the ladder is a fairly useless sign of what is good or bad. I would also say that this sort of automatically discounts my own opinion, since I feel as though I barely have any clue of what actual top players are doing.

Nevertheless, the rules of this suspect apparently dictate that my COIL licenses me to have an opinion about Sticky Web. I am leaning ban, because my experience playing this tier has been fairly terrible? Of course, part of this is just because half the ladder players are running shitmons, but even the decent games I've played have simply not been very fun. I don't think I've ever walked into a tier and had this bad of a reaction in a long time: maybe I'm doing it to myself since I'm playing HO, but still, I don't want to accept "Sticky Web is not an overpowered archetype" as an argument to keep it around when it seems like a very centralizing archetype, and the banning of Sticky Web seems like a start towards making this format less counter-team heavy and generally coinflippy. Further discussion... well, I should probably leave it to players who actually know how this metagame has operated for years.

EDIT: I should mention, Mewtwo, I loaded up the wrong fucking sample team when I matched into you. I had never played that thing before in my life and had literally no clue what my sets were. That... should explain something.

I completely agree with your points. I can theoretically see an outcome where Webs doesn't end up destroying the meta, however I cannot see one where the solution doesn't consist of increasing both this tier's teambuilder strain and meta centralization to an even greater extent than it is currently at now.

Despite what it may have originally been intended for, Ubers hasn't—on a functional level—been regarded solely as a banlist for broken OU Pokémon since Mega Rayquaza was initially exiled from the Standard format back in ORAS. We do not have to put up with unbalanced, uncompetitive, or unhealthy mechanics (within reason) if they are actively damaging the game, anymore. What good is it to preserve the old guard's "image" of Ubers as a competitive cesspool with limited to no bans if doing so causes its very own playerbase to actively suffer from it?

Perhaps if Webs was temporary—or benefitted all reasonably offensive Pokémon equally I would consider voting dnb, however in practice, the only thing that it tends to do is make Pokémon that were already high tiers and/or constricting, even worse.

Perhaps for many competitive players, meta diversity is not an object so long as they can continue to win, however as someone who views this franchise not from a top-down (i.e. joining the game for competitive reasons and subsequently liking Pokémon according to their expediency), but from a bottom-up perspective (i.e. trying to get good because I grew to care about the franchise over time): I cannot justify voting in a manner that will result in a meta that is fundamentally antithetical to my beliefs or the identity of this franchise as a whole.

I am all for sending little timmies and their unserious Charizard teams running home: we don't need that kind of unserious faux-diversity wasting the time of people trying to actually improve—however when genuinely usable Pokémon end up being discouraged—or when questionable Pomémon end up being forced upon teams because the alternative is getting 3-6'd by Webs: we really should take the opportunity to deal with the disease while we still can.

If you have not yet settled on a stance and are reading this: please consider that Webs does not leave any significant positive impact on the tier. Even many of the dnb arguments largely come down to it simply being manageable. If your house was infested with pests, would you really not call the exterminator simply because they weren't "bad enough"? At best, Webs can be played around at a price. At worse, it is actively degrading the player experience on the ladder and encouraging degeneracy.

 

[unfuuny]

Let's just start by saying that I don't think webs is broken. In my opinion, the main ways in which the meta has adapted to dealing with webs - scarftal, mdia and fez-oh - are plenty of good options to deal with webs, and while these require a sizeable investment in some cases, these mons are most definitely not deadweight in other matchups and scarf yveltal, mdiancie and fezandipiti are good enough mons to be running regardless of if you are expecting a smeargle at team preview or not. I do definitely agree with SSS that other options of dealing with webs are underexplored. Of course you can't really just run pheromosa to deal with webs because it gets slowed down and running boots means that its the first mon to deal no damage, but other options can definitely be looked at, like the new rising spinner terapagos or toedscruel. Of course a big downside of rapid spin is that it doesn't work on ghost types and with chi-yu webs running meat beam lunala that means that it has to be dealt with first, and the only mortal spin users are the ho leads glimmora and the culprit itself smeargle. A big option is an unexpected multi hit move. Murkrow guy and I famously use scarf calyrex ice with double kick, but mons like dd kyurem black or scale shot rayquaza, or even rock blast pdon or dual wingbeat bandoh are pretty unexplored. Of course you can just use a faster defog, like how SSS mentioned scarf lando-t, or boots ekiller, but also stuff like defog megamence or mlatios could be very good options. Or something entirely different could be found, like teams that do not mind webs going up because they all underspeed the common HO mons anyways. (many GHAZ teams already kind of do this aside from the darkceus)
Looking at usage and WR the brokenness or spammyness doesn't really jump out to me either. In NDFL, of the 62 teams used, webs was only used 12 times and won 6 games, a nice 50/50. I myself did not use it a single time in 8 matches played, instead going for in my eyes more consistent options (aside from finals, i just wanted to floober some1 lol). And when I looked at the replays, I don't think webs carried the players either. The losing side made clear misplays or got unlucky.
In conclusion I don't think webs is unfair in the current NDubers landscape because the metagame has adapted plenty to webs and smeargle, and there is enough more to look at for options to remove or prevent webs. Therefore, I will be voting DNB
anyways thank you for reading look at my chud son floober
View attachment 789643
breezai out

I wanted to make an update post because I have changed my stance on webs and wether I will be voting ban or not. It largely comes down to one issue for me: Laddering this past week has been absolutely miserable. Usually when I ladder, I encounter a large variety of team structures that keep laddering fresh, wether I am 1600 or 1800. A little cteaming here and there has never really stopped me from at least enjoying a few ladder games per day. But with the new influx of players due to the suspect and with webs in the spotlight I have been enjoying it less than ever, and it is largely because like two thirds of teams I encounter is a webs structure with smeargle in the lead. The typical Smeargle moveset is Webs, Perish Song, Nuzzle and Mortal Spin. But with a lot of players running Smeargle, the unpredictability has gone through the roof. If the only web setters were Shuckle and Ribombee I would not be here at 12 am writing a love letter to the pro ban authorities, they are very fair, but Smeargle's ability to pull the most random shit out of their ass has me intensely frustrated. Expecting Nuzzle? nope, here's Spore and now your pdon is a sitting duck against their zac and pogre! Oh and I'm not running Perish Song so I'm setting 3 layers of Ceaseless Edge! Expecting Mortal Spin and set up hazards with NDM? Nope here's Rapid Spin, try again later! Bait Spore so your next mon is safe? Nope! Double Status! Whirlwind, Taunt, Explosion, Endeavor, random bullshit, go! And don't get me started on Moody. Here's a Speed boost so I can Spore everything and when you finally hit precipice blades through 2 turns of sleep I can Endeavor 2 of your mons!! Moody is such bullshit and I have wanted it banned since early last year at least, but this past week has really just doubled my hatred for that dumb ability.

To the topic of unique hazard prevention methods in my last post, we had a big discussion about it on discord and the whole multi hit move thing ended up being pretty much nothing because turns out if u invest in bulk (which both Smeargle and Ribombee can afford) u live the majority of multi hit moves. Looking back a lot of the defoggers were also too large investments to be worthwhile (aside from scarftal, who is the goat), not doing enough other things besides defogging fast. I also came to the realization that many of the "weird" webs counters, eg Scarf Horse, Defog Ekiller, Loaded Dice Kyurem Black - viable or not - were pretty much exclusive to HO itself, who can deal with webs in other ways, such as with Rocky Helmet Deo-S, lead mDiancie or Toedscruel.
I must say I do enjoy the beef Runo and Whatever. have goin on it is a very enjoyable read, so I'm gonna add a little fuel to the fire

Remember what rank this player has, by the way.

A badge doesn't mean shit if it's for a different tier. And for his ladder elo, I've probably gotten higher with worse. Iron Moth, lv100 Togedemaru, Perish Song mAltaria, mGlalie. All shit I've used succesfully at 1760+. An ex-council member famously brought Swadloon to top 10. If a player knows what they're doing, they can get any bullshit up to a high elo, and IMO, mBanette isn't even so strange.

tldr: I changed my mind, moody is bald, and it is always toedscruel tuesday somewhere in the world
anyways look at my chud son again

breezai out

 

[Medasus]

Ok so I did reqs pretty quickly after the sus went up but was very much conflicted on which way to go initially.

I was pretty strongly of the opinion that Zacian was the main issue with webs and that without it the archetypes viability would plummet pretty significantly to the point of not really being that much as a major threat anymore, until bumbo pointed out to me that the main issue for bo / balance / fat isn't actually Zacian and that their defensive counterplay to it is generally not hindered too heavily by webs. The problem mons for these archetypes are more like Yvetall and Chi Yu, neither of which are even remotely problematic with webs out of the picture imo. I feel webs does need nerfing of some form, I managed to get reqs mindlessly in around half an hour without really turning my brain on, and this shouldn't be any of the individual components of webs imo, none of them strike me as broken outside of Webs. Webs is what enables Tera Ground Zacian to get so out of hand against offense, without them its much easier to revenge kill with mons like Pheramosa, Deoxys and potentially your own Zacian if it comes to it. You can largely put this steamrolling of ladder down to it being a generally terrible representation of Ubers play, but when I did run into other players doing reqs (a lot of who probably are a lot better than me) and was able to win without turning my brain on, I feel that there might be potentially something broken about the archetype. Even if one abuser of webs, like Zac for example, got banned, I feel like there would still be an underlying issue of the fact that even though Offense has a better time into Webs it's still going to win against most fatter teams through Yvel and Chi Yu, and to be consistent into that many matchups as a fish feels a bit off.

As well as this Webs poses a pretty big strain while building, most of the time you end up resorting to the same few options to deny webs or (from my experience) forced to burn tera on a more reliable removal option or call a taunt when you might get punished for it pretty heavily to get them off the field, a position you likely don't really want to force yourself into. Most listed counterplay in this thread seems way too fishy to want to slot on a normal team, feasibly when are you going to want to run Defog Arc and Scarf Double Kick Caly-Ice, being forced, or even having to contemplate these is an indicator that Webs might not be healthy for the tier.

I did reqs with this quite frankly poorly made Webs team, I'm not going to make the argument that if I could win on ladder with this Webs must be broken because ladder is bad.

Of the DNB arguments I do find Runos the most compelling and personally see Zacian potentially being a problem even without webs but I would be more inclined to get rid of the obviously unhealthy aspect as opposed to trying to pinpoint an archetypes success on 1 specific mon when there isn't really one specific thing that makes webs broken. (Idrk tiering policy but that's my view on it)

Obviously still openminded about changing my vote but currently erring on the side of Ban

 

[neptune732]

I will be voting Ban

As much as I love aspects about this meta: NatDex Ubers unfortunately feels very unserious as a tier right now—and while certain aspects of this (low ladder shenanigans; Karen's Acolytes, theme-teams, OU spite-teams—and the rampant cTeaming in high-ladder) can't really be purged through tiering action: issues pertaining to the flexibility of the tier can be.

Powerful threats like Zygarde, Zacian, Yveltal, Dragon Dance Necrozma, and Tera Normal Double-Edge Arceus already place severe constraints upon the flexibility and diversity of the tier, however Webs stands out as a particularly egregious manifestation of this in how little effort or even conscious thought is actually required to pilot it compared to the massive returns it yields for its use.

I literally played a match against a 1700s bronzed player where the optimal strategy was to spam ineffective Groundceus Judgment into their Yveltal to wait out their taunt because I could immediately tell that their eyes glazed over and went into autopilot the moment they landed it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2494429283-305jf2ym9ee09rs6jwho8wji2g4rqpspw

I also think the fact that a high level player felt like it was a good idea to bring a Banette to that match is further indicative of how powerful this strategy is. While most team structures have to fill each slot carefully to avoid getting steamrolled/stalled by the opposing team: this guy—in the same centralized environment—had the flexibility to run a literal unviable Pokémon because at that point, going 1 for 1 against the opponent at best, kind of does become worth it when said one Pokémon from their opponent's team may very well have been the only opposing Pokémon either not yet affected by—or immune to the effect of Webs, leaving them with little to nothing to oppose their autopilot flowchart-sweep.

I really want to take this tier seriously—and I do believe that it has the potential to become an incredible tier—however in its present state, there are quite a few things holding it back from reaching that status, and since we're on the topic of Webs—which is one of them: we should start by purging it promptly.

Ban.

Why do you think I only used this team to score 1700 points？I have five teams, and I will take turns using them for fun.

 

[cfdu1202]

Long time hiatus, came back just to get the reqs for this suspect. I will be voting ban.

I am usually not a fan of bans in the Uber metagame, unless it is something truly egregious such as Koraidon, Miraidon, Calyrex-S or MegaRay, because it is against the essence of Ubers, a tier where the most powerful legendaries battle each other. I was one of the only one to argue against Xerneas' ban, as it was indeed overcentralizing but bearable for an Uber metagame, even if the metagame got better (as in more enjoyable) afterwards.

What about Sticky Web then? I really resonate with the arguments that unfuuny provided. Smeargle is absolute bullshit. Sticky Web is the new Deo-S/PDon/Darkrai/Ekiller/Xerneas/MegaMence from ORAS. I don't think Ribombee or Shuckle have the same impact as Smeargle on the success of Sticky Web, but frankly, we've seen enough, it has to go. No matter how you think outside the box to try to counter it, no matter the playstyle, your team becomes worse against non Sticky Web teams. HO? Sticky Web traditionnally countered this, and imo still have favorable odds against newer builds. Boots? Now you miss some crucial KOs against bulkier teams. Stall? Chi-Yu feasts on it. Sticky Web mirror? Team with Terapagos wins. Mega-Diancie? Just lead Zacian-C and you more often than not win the game on the spot against such builds. Trick Room? Ok you got me, that's one negative matchup.

Yveltal, Zacian, Double Edge Arceus and Chi-Yu in no particular order are the most problematic Pokemon on Webs. Yveltal's taunt wins the game for Webs, and Dark Pulse flinches steal it in case it wasn't winning. 0/0 Kyogre isn't taking 2 Dark Pulses, and 248/0 is 3HKO'd, meaning that POgre cannot switch in, be flinched, and win the interaction, not to mention only Origin Pulse with its shaky accuracy guarantee the KO. Zacian is overwhelming to deal with, as unless you play Dondozo you cannot afford to let it get a free turn, meaning no Defog. Otherwise, your Landorus-T team is staring down a +2 Zacian. Yes you removed Defog, but at what cost? Also, I digress a bit here, but TB Ground Zacian is one of the hardest Pokemon to take into account in the teambuilding process, and imo should be looked at.

However, Double Edge Arceus and Chi-Yu are monsters. They just steamroll through everything with one boost. They're the one who make Webs as consistent as it can be against bulkier structures.

I didn't want to use Webs for reqs, so I used this. I'm proud to say I haven't lost once against Webs with this team during my run thanks to the weird Kyogre moveset, and the three strong priority moves, while out-offensing any HO, breaking through balance and still having a decent matchup against stall. Team is not without weaknesses, though, namely Recover Offensive Eternatus or most POgre. Lost once against TR and PsySpam (understandably so). Not too shabby I think.