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Metagame Metagame Discussion

Hey LC
I want to help players teambuild. So many of them don't know where to start. It all starts with an idea.
So I've been thinking about ideas for engines recently and one of my favorite engines of offense is this.
:sv/vullaby::sv/chinchou: A+ tier
Vullaby is a powerful breaker, so much so that it almost necessitates a Vullaby check on every team. These tend to be Mudbray, Tinkatink, Glimmet. Chinchou happens to matchup well into all of these and therefore a proactive U Turn from Vullaby can lead to a Chinchou entry. From there you can spread damage or Volt Switch to complete the VoltTurn core.

This core is weak to Chinchou itself, so it pairs well with Mienfoo, Foongus, Elekid, Stunky, Diglett-Alola, Grookey, Snover, as a means to check opposing Chinchou.
Below are a few pastes of half built teams for you to use
:vullaby::chinchou::mienfoo: (Fast)
:vullaby::chinchou::mienfoo: (Slow)
:vullaby::chinchou::foongus:
:vullaby::chinchou::elekid:
:vullaby::chinchou::stunky:
:vullaby::chinchou::diglett-alola:
:vullaby::chinchou::grookey: (Eviolite)
:vullaby::chinchou::grookey: (Scarf)
:vullaby::chinchou::snover: (Scarf)
:vullaby::chinchou::snover: (Eviolite)
Lookout for the teamdump in the Bazaar where i build a team with all of these presets!
 
Kowasabii said:
Serious question what would it take to bring back the team building competition for SV? I thought it was really fun in SS and now that the metagame is starting to settle with all the DLCs being released could be a good time to do it.
Click to expand...
It’s been a year and a half. Has the meta game settled to the point where the team building competition can be brought back?
 
I agree with all of these takes, because foongus landing spore without sleep talk/punish is an unacceptable outcome in the builder so every team is built to make foongus bad because that's it's only offensive presence.

I used to think nymble was just the greedy eb pokemon but it's kinda not terrible and threatens some teams
 
Kowasabii said:
It’s been a year and a half. Has the meta game settled to the point where the team building competition can be brought back?
Click to expand...
rahul_3301

Project Thread 'SV LC Teambuilding Competition - Cycle 5 : Ranked Selection (Building Phase)'

approved by Hacker, OP stolen from the DPP OU Teambuilding Competition.
timburr.png

Art by ashelyDeluxe
​

Welcome to the SV Little Cup Teambuilding Competition thread! Each week I will post a new Pokemon, core, set or team archetype, and its up to you to make the best possible team out of it! Every time you post a new team, you will have to provide an explanation of the building process, strength and weaknesses, and the importable of the team itself. The winner of each week will get their team...
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Since Im not playing either scl or lcwc its time to make this post. Shellder is broken and should be banned from SV LC. The fact that this thing has got away from being suspect tested even tho it has been the focus of several discussions among great players throughout different metagames blows my mind.There is this post from Scottie, this one from tazz or this one from Eric (there are A LOT more).



The stupid thing about shellder is that it has so many different sets and none of them is better than other, it just depends on what you are facing. In other words: each set is better for each scenario. The player has absolutely no way to setguess which set the shellder player is using and each shellder set should be countered differently. Sets that shellder might use: Tera Water, Tera Rock, Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, Sub Tera Steel, TB Grass, TB ground, Special Tera electric…

In addition to this, it has a decent movepool: Liquidation, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Tera Blast, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Protect, Substitute. Enough moves to hit the whole tier and defensive moves to scout for defensive teras. Furthermore, it set ups on the most used mons in the tier (vullaby and mienfoo). And honestly thanks to tera and support from partners (memento, trick, taunt…) it can set up in basically anything.

Do you know any other mon in the tier (or honestly any tier) that has so many equally viable sets ? Because I don’t. And honestly I probably forgot some teras that are also viable.

It creates so many 50/50s, guessing games, being lucky in the builder that it clearly favors the worse player to use it. It reduces the skill.

Some replays that support my opinion:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887776

Starsama vs Wail Wailord, SCL Semifinals

In this replay Im using Tera Steel Sub Shellder. In turn 22 Starsama should have gone for HJK against Shellder, but he didn't because he was afraid of Tera Ghost/Fairy Shellder, which explains why he went for the U-turn. Some turns after that I Subbed in his Vullaby roosting which let me win the game. Starsama had no way to figure out my set and lost because of it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-891689

Greedy vs Agera, LCWC Quarterfinals

Even tho Agera got kinda lucky with some rolls and hitting hydros, and Greedy probably misplayed as well the fact that set even exists is ridiculous.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-881752?p2

bbb vs Always Edgy LCWC Week 1

In this replay bbb expertly sacks Vullaby, taunting the tinkatink and making it set up fodder. Then bbb tera ghosts his shellder to be able to set up in mare as well as being immune to Fake Out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-883616

Rarre vs nashrock, LCWC Week 2

Even tho this is a lose, Nashrock could have won if he clicked Liquidation (assuming he had liquidation). The 50/50 shellder creates on rarre to wether or not tera its another reason to ban it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-884579

rarre vs greedy, LCWC Week 3

Rarre doesnt even need to tera his shellder. Memento glimm allows shell to set up in mare (kinda similar to the previous bbb replay). Tect helps for pinch/foo priority, allowing the sweep to happen.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-886931

Nashrock vs Stories LCWC Week 4

This game shows how early teraring against shellder might be easily punished. Stories probably had defensives teras to deal with shell in both foo and vull but without those Stories just lost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-885906

Loki vs Vulpix LCWC Week 4

Loki could have won this game if he attacked the pinch instead of smashing again. Pix had no way to know that the shell was Tera Ghost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887989

teamo vs Hoennspetile LCWC Week 5

Uses tera ghost to make the drifloon set up fodder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2486777461-3e1tecpjn2f0yai0kapj40rbsccfionpw

Fernanch vs Corck LCWC Week 6

Tera Rock lets shellder set up, kill chinchou and also reduces the damage of a possible fake out / feint from scarf foo. Hail is a hard mu for shellder but it doesnt even matter. Tect helps a lot to scout defensive teras. If that shellder had any other tera it might have hard a harder time dealing with chinchou. But it had the right tera in the right place.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-889521

seraph vs rarre LCWC Week 6

Shell set ups in vull and wins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2489840957-3n67bngfej9j3rvtbiir0wadaaypgkipw

Always Edgy vs Octperlover LCWC Week 7

Tera Rock lets set up in meowth and resist fake out / Feint. In addition to this it has tect to scout for defensive teras.

I probably could have came up with even more replays, and maybe will edit this in the future to add some more if i have the time.


Im aware that it not might be the best timing, as LCWC hasnt ended, but I strongly believe that Suspect testing Shellder after LCWC is what the LC Council should do.
 
Last edited:
Wail Wailord said:
Since Im not playing either scl or lcwc its time to make this post. Shellder is broken and should be banned from SV LC. The fact that this thing has got away from being suspect tested even tho it has been the focus of several discussions among great players throughout different metagames blows my mind.There is this post from Scottie, this one from tazz or this one from Eric (there are A LOT more).



The stupid thing about shellder is that it has so many different sets and none of them is better than other, it just depends on what you are facing. In other words: each set is better for each scenario. The player has absolutely no way to setguess which set the shellder player is using and each shellder set should be countered differently. Sets that shellder might use: Tera Water, Tera Rock, Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, Sub Tera Steel, TB Grass, TB ground, Special Tera electric…

In addition to this, it has a decent movepool: Liquidation, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Tera Blast, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Protect, Substitute. Enough moves to hit the whole tier and defensive moves to scout for defensive teras. Furthermore, it set ups on the most used mons in the tier (vullaby and mienfoo). And honestly thanks to tera and support from partners (memento, trick, taunt…) it can set up in basically anything.

Do you know any other mon in the tier (or honestly any tier) that has so many equally viable sets ? Because I don’t. And honestly I probably forgot some teras that are also viable.

It creates so many 50/50s, guessing games, being lucky in the builder that it clearly favors the worse player to use it. It reduces the skill.

Some replays that support my opinion:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887776

Starsama vs Wail Wailord, SCL Semifinals

In this replay Im using Tera Steel Sub Shellder. In turn 22 Starsama should have gone for HJK against Shellder, but he didn't because he was afraid of Tera Ghost/Fairy Shellder, which explains why he went for the U-turn. Some turns after that I Subbed in his Vullaby roosting which let me win the game. Starsama had no way to figure out my set and lost because of it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-891689

Greedy vs Agera, LCWC Quarterfinals

Even tho Agera got kinda lucky with some rolls and hitting hydros, and Greedy probably misplayed as well the fact that set even exists is ridiculous.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-881752?p2

bbb vs Always Edgy LCWC Week 1

In this replay bbb expertly sacks Vullaby, taunting the tinkatink and making it set up fodder. Then bbb tera ghosts his shellder to be able to set up in mare as well as being immune to Fake Out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-883616

Rarre vs nashrock, LCWC Week 2

Even tho this is a lose, Nashrock could have won if he clicked Liquidation (assuming he had liquidation). The 50/50 shellder creates on rarre to wether or not tera its another reason to ban it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-884579

rarre vs greedy, LCWC Week 3

Rarre doesnt even need to tera his shellder. Memento glimm allows shell to set up in mare (kinda similar to the previous bbb replay). Tect helps for pinch/foo priority, allowing the sweep to happen.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-886931

Nashrock vs Stories LCWC Week 4

This game shows how early teraring against shellder might be easily punished. Stories probably had defensives teras to deal with shell in both foo and vull but without those Stories just lost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-885906

Loki vs Vulpix LCWC Week 4

Loki could have won this game if he attacked the pinch instead of smashing again. Pix had no way to know that the shell was Tera Ghost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887989

teamo vs Hoennspetile LCWC Week 5

Uses tera ghost to make the drifloon set up fodder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2486777461-3e1tecpjn2f0yai0kapj40rbsccfionpw

Fernanch vs Corck LCWC Week 6

Tera Rock lets shellder set up, kill chinchou and also reduces the damage of a possible fake out / feint from scarf foo. Hail is a hard mu for shellder but it doesnt even matter. Tect helps a lot to scout defensive teras. If that shellder had any other tera it might have hard a harder time dealing with chinchou. But it had the right tera in the right place.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-889521

seraph vs rarre LCWC Week 6

Shell set ups in vull and wins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2489840957-3n67bngfej9j3rvtbiir0wadaaypgkipw

Always Edgy vs Octperlover LCWC Week 7

Tera Rock lets set up in meowth and resist fake out / Feint. In addition to this it has tect to scout for defensive teras.

I probably could have came up with even more replays, and maybe will edit this in the future to add some more if i have the time.


Im aware that it not might be the best timing, as LCWC hasnt ended, but I strongly believe that Suspect testing Shellder after LCWC is what the LC Council should do.
Click to expand...
I think shelder tera is a bit overwhelming as well. On top of that, overcoat sets are sometimes ran. While it is true you can check a shelder sweep with a tera water/steel on a defensive mon like mudbray, it does feel very difficult to handle solely because of the tera aspect of the mon imo. Just so many different things to look out for, and it feels bad to feel forced into a 50/50 as a reward for making progress by scoring a ko.
 
:sv/ekans:
Ekans @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 76 HP / 4 Def / 164 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot / Substitute
- Knock Off
- Glare
Bumping Ekans for VR (C/D)
Usecases:
Offensively,
Cripple an enemy pokemon with Knock Off and Glare for a teammate to set up. Shellder, Vullaby, Mienfoo, Gimmighoul-Roaming, etc. all benefit from Ekans support.

Defensively,
Ekans has Intimidate, which is invaluable in a physically skewed metagame. Ekans also has the poison type, allowing it to function as a frailer Fighting resist even contesting Mienfoo.

Speed control cannot be overstated. Speed is the most important stat in SV LC, therefore para is one of the strongest statuses. Ekans has access to the aforementioned Glare, which is one of the best para moves in the game; is able to paralyze ground types with 100% accuracy.
Interactions and Toolkit:
Ekans is best used as an early to midgame disruptor and therefore it plays against pokemon like Mudbray, Glimmet, Tinkatink, Vullaby, Mienfoo, Elekid, Chinchou.

  • Mudbray is a bad mu and cant be dealt with by Ekans without incredible para odds.
  • Glimmet is contested by Ekans 16 speed and is OHKOed by Earthquake. Glare is also used if you fear Tera Flying.
  • Tinkatink is walled by Ekans and is weak to EQ
  • Vullaby is a high value Glare target, another 16 speed pokemon to tie.
  • Mienfoo vs Ekans is an incredibly deep matchup and requires experience to master. Maybe one day ill write a flow chart for it. For the purpose of this post, Glare and Knock to set up for a teammate.
  • Elekid and Chinchou will try to come in to absorb Glare, being the only para immunes in the format. Use EQ to snipe entry points; use Glare when they are in to predict Volt Switch.
Ekans also can run Substitute (over Gunk Shot) to cheese Mienfoo and wall Foongus on certain teams.

Earthquake, Knock Off, Glare are mandatory.
 
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We have been ignored and trivialized and removed from discussion with no good counter-arguments ever having surfaced.

I'll quickly reiterate the main arguments I've made on the case;
​

1. Terastalization Changes the Game from a Game of Gathering Information to a Game of Guessing and Hoping.​


"You can gauge" is incredibly speculative, and while a skill one aquires with meta-knowledge, you can still only narrow down to an extent, fact still remains that there's rarely only 1 good Tera Type for any mon regardless of team, it all depends on the builder and what they prefer. The example Wail Wailord brought up vs Eric is a perfect example of this, we know the many viable Tera-Types of Vullaby, and Wail logically narrowed it down to very few (But still not just 1 good), and still lost because Eric had found an unorthodox, but good Tera. While in the builder, it's already difficult enough to build a viable team that accounts for 20+ mons with 40+ sets, but having to account for 99+ different Type combinations is close to impossible. No matter how well you build, and almost no matter how well you play, chances are there are not only one, but several good and viable Tera types (and accompanying small set adjustments) that'll just auto-win against your team, to a bigger extent than niche sets would in previous gens. This makes for more of a diceroll going into a match than earlier, which (especially for all of you who want a high-skill meta (Looking at the Pro-Gen8-Vull lads)) closes the skill-gap significantly as any player can just get a lucky match-up to the point where it's unwinnable for the opponent without having to sacrifice general viability moreso than in earlier gens. Just check the myriad of Shellder posts for specific cases of just a random tera being the winning one.
​

2. Removes Cheese Strategies that Steals the Late-Game, While Providing Value to Mons Outside the Top 10​


Part 2 of this is somewhat speculative, but part 1 is fairly simple. No one is gonna steal the game away late-game for free with a random Tera on a Crit-Me-Not Solosis or Chingling. Leaves more room for the best player to win the match, not the one with the best Cheese in the back. As for part 2, giving a degree of certainty to niche options, it means that now you can actually get away with trying something like Turtwig to clean up vs someone who never brings Foongus, or bring that niche mon you think can give you a surprise KO on a big mon like Mienfoo/Vullaby/Voltorb early-game. There's not room anymore for them just Teraing out of that matchup to just be up 6 good mons vs 5 and a junk mon that serves no purpose anymore, without it ever getting the chance to shine. Essentially, there's more value in diversifying the mons in your builder now, rather than just bringing a different Tera than you normally would out of the 3-5 relevant ones.
​

3. The Imbalance of Offensive vs Defensive Tera.​


Offensive Tera has more value than defensive Tera, an offensive Tera is generally built around to be used specifically like that, one does not lose any defensive utility, whereas most defensive Teras that can function as a reaction to these will generally hinder the mon from functioning in its original (and for many bulky mons, vital) role. See Tera Foongus (Steel/Water/Ghost/Dragon), Mienfoo (Steel/Water), Mareanie (Dragon/Ghost). Offensive teras are also more proactive, whereas a defensive tera is either reactionary after damage has already been caused, or a gambling option. The sheer frequency of bans on offensive mons this gen points to the uneven dynamic between offensive teras and the defensive tera as counterplay to it. The argument that you can countertera, while technically correct, has essentially been proven too inefficient with the frequency of these bans as these offensive mons can easily swap up their teras and you wouldn't know from preview, as well as the power of gaining or boosting a STAB compared to just gaining a new typing, especially on mons that previously had an actual good typing but has to tera out of neccessity.
​

4. Banning Tera Would Solve all Slated Suspects, as Well as Earlier Suspects.​


1767048374866.png

So this is what we have been doing, and the result? We find a new mon to ban every fresh month. This is (in 2 weeks from now) 2 years ago, and has clearly not been a good solution. With banning Tera, we could free up half the banlist in the tier while also stopping the current potential suspects from having to get banned. With Tera removed, we could now free Aipom, Voltorb, Snivy, Scraggy, Torchic, Magby (Might get banned again tho ngl), Porygon, Gastly, even Heat Rock might be plausible. I shall not speak on Giraffe / Diglett / Flittle / Rufflet / Sticky Webs tho, as all five were banned before I ever played this gen.
​

~~~~​


Now there are a few key issues with approaching Tera. For one, I've not made any too fresh arguments on the case and someone is likely to comment on that. To said commenters, I'd like you to go back and read my 3 posts on the matter;

Fille

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

A Small Post on why Tera Should (Probably) be Banned from LC


1. Offensive Tera is a Balanced Mechanic Due to the Presence of Defensive Tera as a Counter-Option.

While to an extent true, the main problem lies with roles of the mons from a structural perspective. While offensive mons are often designed to Tera that specific way as often as possible, as they're built to win with Tera in mind, Defensive mons that are forced to Tera to counter said Tera'd mon likely had a different purpose on the team largely based on its typing that it cannot perform after Teraing. Most...​
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Fille

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

:mienfoo::voltorb::vullaby:
I love that we're pushing the metagame forward, but I'm a bit worried about the amount of bans we've gone through recently, and the pace we're on to banning even more mons. I've previously expressed some concern over that possibility, albeit I did not think it likely that we would come to this point where so many of the new tools we were given this gen are on the slate. I would like to propose what I deem to be the best course of action as a result, one that not only limits the amount of bans needed to fix the metagame and hopefully open up for some diversity...​
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Fille

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

Colin said:
Throughout much of SV LC, I thought tera was a negative presence. However, I think Terastalization makes the current meta more skillful to play and diversifies the tier, while with a few exceptions not being broken at all. Those exceptions are Voltorb-hisui, Shellder, and Growlithe-Hisui. Shellder with tera for sure causes the most 50/50's with Terastalization based on whether its teched to beat Mienfoo, increase its power, or other stuff. Voltorb-Hisui is a more immediate breaker with Terastalization, but I don't consider it the main reason why it is potentially overbearing for the...
Click to expand...
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Now after reading that, I'd like you to look me in the face, and tell me these arguments have not been proven correct. I mentioned that Torchic, a pokemon that no one had on their list at the time, was gonna get banned, two years ago. Fucking Torchic. And I was right on all 4 accounts on all the mons that were to be banned, In order with the only exception being Voltorb inbetween, and they've all been banned with the same arguments; Tera pushes them over the line. And they've all adjusted to the pattern I've just noted, and with Shellder up for discussion that pattern is continuously fullfilling itself.

Second note, Big Brother has forbidden any further action on Tera this gen. This one's a pickle. Thing is though, Big Brother never ever actually paid any attention to LC, how it functions and how it develops. With the room deletion drama about a year ago, they didn't really seem to have really cared much either. However, if they do care enough to try and enforce such a ban, I'm sure they'd be willing to listen to our proposal as well, especially when considering how different LC is to the level 100 usage-based tiers both in functionality, metagame-centralization and the mathematics behind the power of moves and mons. The tiering staff seems to have acknowledged us more recently, and if ever there was a time to push for an exception for the betterment of a Top-Level Format, I'd think it would be now.​



Do consider it lads.
 
Fille said:
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We have been ignored and trivialized and removed from discussion with no good counter-arguments ever having surfaced.

I'll quickly reiterate the main arguments I've made on the case;
​

1. Terastalization Changes the Game from a Game of Gathering Information to a Game of Guessing and Hoping.​


"You can gauge" is incredibly speculative, and while a skill one aquires with meta-knowledge, you can still only narrow down to an extent, fact still remains that there's rarely only 1 good Tera Type for any mon regardless of team, it all depends on the builder and what they prefer. The example Wail Wailord brought up vs Eric is a perfect example of this, we know the many viable Tera-Types of Vullaby, and Wail logically narrowed it down to very few (But still not just 1 good), and still lost because Eric had found an unorthodox, but good Tera. While in the builder, it's already difficult enough to build a viable team that accounts for 20+ mons with 40+ sets, but having to account for 99+ different Type combinations is close to impossible. No matter how well you build, and almost no matter how well you play, chances are there are not only one, but several good and viable Tera types (and accompanying small set adjustments) that'll just auto-win against your team, to a bigger extent than niche sets would in previous gens. This makes for more of a diceroll going into a match than earlier, which (especially for all of you who want a high-skill meta (Looking at the Pro-Gen8-Vull lads)) closes the skill-gap significantly as any player can just get a lucky match-up to the point where it's unwinnable for the opponent without having to sacrifice general viability moreso than in earlier gens. Just check the myriad of Shellder posts for specific cases of just a random tera being the winning one.
​

2. Removes Cheese Strategies that Steals the Late-Game, While Providing Value to Mons Outside the Top 10​


Part 2 of this is somewhat speculative, but part 1 is fairly simple. No one is gonna steal the game away late-game for free with a random Tera on a Crit-Me-Not Solosis or Chingling. Leaves more room for the best player to win the match, not the one with the best Cheese in the back. As for part 2, giving a degree of certainty to niche options, it means that now you can actually get away with trying something like Turtwig to clean up vs someone who never brings Foongus, or bring that niche mon you think can give you a surprise KO on a big mon like Mienfoo/Vullaby/Voltorb early-game. There's not room anymore for them just Teraing out of that matchup to just be up 6 good mons vs 5 and a junk mon that serves no purpose anymore, without it ever getting the chance to shine. Essentially, there's more value in diversifying the mons in your builder now, rather than just bringing a different Tera than you normally would out of the 3-5 relevant ones.
​

3. The Imbalance of Offensive vs Defensive Tera.​


Offensive Tera has more value than defensive Tera, an offensive Tera is generally built around to be used specifically like that, one does not lose any defensive utility, whereas most defensive Teras that can function as a reaction to these will generally hinder the mon from functioning in its original (and for many bulky mons, vital) role. See Tera Foongus (Steel/Water/Ghost/Dragon), Mienfoo (Steel/Water), Mareanie (Dragon/Ghost). Offensive teras are also more proactive, whereas a defensive tera is either reactionary after damage has already been caused, or a gambling option. The sheer frequency of bans on offensive mons this gen points to the uneven dynamic between offensive teras and the defensive tera as counterplay to it. The argument that you can countertera, while technically correct, has essentially been proven too inefficient with the frequency of these bans as these offensive mons can easily swap up their teras and you wouldn't know from preview, as well as the power of gaining or boosting a STAB compared to just gaining a new typing, especially on mons that previously had an actual good typing but has to tera out of neccessity.
​

4. Banning Tera Would Solve all Slated Suspects, as Well as Earlier Suspects.​


View attachment 797216
So this is what we have been doing, and the result? We find a new mon to ban every fresh month. This is (in 2 weeks from now) 2 years ago, and has clearly not been a good solution. With banning Tera, we could free up half the banlist in the tier while also stopping the current potential suspects from having to get banned. With Tera removed, we could now free Aipom, Voltorb, Snivy, Scraggy, Torchic, Magby (Might get banned again tho ngl), Porygon, Gastly, even Heat Rock might be plausible. I shall not speak on Giraffe / Diglett / Flittle / Rufflet / Sticky Webs tho, as all five were banned before I ever played this gen.
​

~~~~​


Now there are a few key issues with approaching Tera. For one, I've not made any too fresh arguments on the case and someone is likely to comment on that. To said commenters, I'd like you to go back and read my 3 posts on the matter;

Fille

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

A Small Post on why Tera Should (Probably) be Banned from LC


1. Offensive Tera is a Balanced Mechanic Due to the Presence of Defensive Tera as a Counter-Option.

While to an extent true, the main problem lies with roles of the mons from a structural perspective. While offensive mons are often designed to Tera that specific way as often as possible, as they're built to win with Tera in mind, Defensive mons that are forced to Tera to counter said Tera'd mon likely had a different purpose on the team largely based on its typing that it cannot perform after Teraing. Most...​
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Fille

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

:mienfoo::voltorb::vullaby:
I love that we're pushing the metagame forward, but I'm a bit worried about the amount of bans we've gone through recently, and the pace we're on to banning even more mons. I've previously expressed some concern over that possibility, albeit I did not think it likely that we would come to this point where so many of the new tools we were given this gen are on the slate. I would like to propose what I deem to be the best course of action as a result, one that not only limits the amount of bans needed to fix the metagame and hopefully open up for some diversity...​
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Fille

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

Colin said:
Throughout much of SV LC, I thought tera was a negative presence. However, I think Terastalization makes the current meta more skillful to play and diversifies the tier, while with a few exceptions not being broken at all. Those exceptions are Voltorb-hisui, Shellder, and Growlithe-Hisui. Shellder with tera for sure causes the most 50/50's with Terastalization based on whether its teched to beat Mienfoo, increase its power, or other stuff. Voltorb-Hisui is a more immediate breaker with Terastalization, but I don't consider it the main reason why it is potentially overbearing for the...
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Now after reading that, I'd like you to look me in the face, and tell me these arguments have not been proven correct. I mentioned that Torchic, a pokemon that no one had on their list at the time, was gonna get banned, two years ago. Fucking Torchic. And I was right on all 4 accounts on all the mons that were to be banned, In order with the only exception being Voltorb inbetween, and they've all been banned with the same arguments; Tera pushes them over the line. And they've all adjusted to the pattern I've just noted, and with Shellder up for discussion that pattern is continuously fullfilling itself.

Second note, Big Brother has forbidden any further action on Tera this gen. This one's a pickle. Thing is though, Big Brother never ever actually paid any attention to LC, how it functions and how it develops. With the room deletion drama about a year ago, they didn't really seem to have really cared much either. However, if they do care enough to try and enforce such a ban, I'm sure they'd be willing to listen to our proposal as well, especially when considering how different LC is to the level 100 usage-based tiers both in functionality, metagame-centralization and the mathematics behind the power of moves and mons. The tiering staff seems to have acknowledged us more recently, and if ever there was a time to push for an exception for the betterment of a Top-Level Format, I'd think it would be now.​



Do consider it lads.
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I wholeheartedly agree with everything in this post. I would love to see some sort of action taken, whether it be survey or suspect. The fact the conversation got shut down in a tier not connected to OU is incredibly disheartening and should be contested. Little Cup is very fundamentally different from the Usage Based tiers. We still have sleep while its banned there. Why are we unable to have our own conversation about tera? While it is speculation I do believe that the tier would have much more mon diversity with tera gone and that is reason enough for me to have a conversation around removing it. I stand on the fact that it adds next to nothing competitive to the meta. #BanTera
 
ive personally always heavily disliked tera, i have logs from literally day 1 discussing it with collette.
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ive never stopped this sentiment, making multiple posts in this very thread, and even a tera suspect poll, which got 70 responses from tournament players from the time, and 62% of them wanted it gone. i cant really tell if since then the sentiment has gone up or down, but it absolutely still is a heated contention.
i really do agree with everything fille says, and it saddens me to no end to know that we cant do anything about it, it is here to stay and the tier is forever damaged because of it. if we ever could ban it, know you have 100% my support
 

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Fille said:
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While I'm in Fille's post, I'd like to vocally add my support here, partially because of the nickname larp but also because it is a cause I do think is worth drumming up support for. Over the past few months I've felt that despite everything we've built the tier still just isn't very fun & tera is really the only clear problem I can point to.
 
Note: I am speaking based only on my opinions.

I want Terablast suspected. I believe that it would mitigate many of the problems that Tera creates with offensive threats being able to ko almost anything with the correct set. Torchic, Voltorb, and a few more pokemon were banned primarily due to their usage of Terablast, and I believe that with a good enough speed tier and decent power, almost any threat can be problematic with Life Orb Terablast.

Tera in general would be much more difficult to suspect, because many tiers are not allowed to suspect Tera as of this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terastallization-tiering-update.3760202/. Personally, I would vote do not ban on Tera, but still hope that LC can suspect Tera because many people want that. I really dislike the decision to prevent tiers that have not suspected Tera to suspect Tera.

I also like SVLC right now, because I find it much more diverse in the builder compared to how it was last year and the first half of this year. I like the many offensive threats (with varying sets) and many choice scarfers that get used, and I like seeing unconventional team structures such as Larvesta + Gothita see play. With the possible exceptions of Mienfoo and Shellder, I don't consider any threat powerful enough to take away many options in the teambuilder. Shellder has a lot of set diversity that is near impossible to cover all at once, but I do appreciate its good matchup into choice scarfers and believe that Shellder balances them. Mienfoo I think is broken though.

Tldr: I support Tera suspect even though I would vote do not ban, but would prefer other suspects instead.
 
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