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Metagame Metagame Discussion

Hey LC
I want to help players teambuild. So many of them don't know where to start. It all starts with an idea.
So I've been thinking about ideas for engines recently and one of my favorite engines of offense is this.
:sv/vullaby::sv/chinchou: A+ tier
Vullaby is a powerful breaker, so much so that it almost necessitates a Vullaby check on every team. These tend to be Mudbray, Tinkatink, Glimmet. Chinchou happens to matchup well into all of these and therefore a proactive U Turn from Vullaby can lead to a Chinchou entry. From there you can spread damage or Volt Switch to complete the VoltTurn core.

This core is weak to Chinchou itself, so it pairs well with Mienfoo, Foongus, Elekid, Stunky, Diglett-Alola, Grookey, Snover, as a means to check opposing Chinchou.
Below are a few pastes of half built teams for you to use
:vullaby::chinchou::mienfoo: (Fast)
:vullaby::chinchou::mienfoo: (Slow)
:vullaby::chinchou::foongus:
:vullaby::chinchou::elekid:
:vullaby::chinchou::stunky:
:vullaby::chinchou::diglett-alola:
:vullaby::chinchou::grookey: (Eviolite)
:vullaby::chinchou::grookey: (Scarf)
:vullaby::chinchou::snover: (Scarf)
:vullaby::chinchou::snover: (Eviolite)
Lookout for the teamdump in the Bazaar where i build a team with all of these presets!
 
Kowasabii said:
Serious question what would it take to bring back the team building competition for SV? I thought it was really fun in SS and now that the metagame is starting to settle with all the DLCs being released could be a good time to do it.
Click to expand...
It’s been a year and a half. Has the meta game settled to the point where the team building competition can be brought back?
 
I agree with all of these takes, because foongus landing spore without sleep talk/punish is an unacceptable outcome in the builder so every team is built to make foongus bad because that's it's only offensive presence.

I used to think nymble was just the greedy eb pokemon but it's kinda not terrible and threatens some teams
 
Kowasabii said:
It’s been a year and a half. Has the meta game settled to the point where the team building competition can be brought back?
Click to expand...
rahul_3301

Project Thread 'SV LC Teambuilding Competition - Cycle 5 : Ranked Selection (Building Phase)'

approved by Hacker, OP stolen from the DPP OU Teambuilding Competition.
timburr.png

Art by ashelyDeluxe
​

Welcome to the SV Little Cup Teambuilding Competition thread! Each week I will post a new Pokemon, core, set or team archetype, and its up to you to make the best possible team out of it! Every time you post a new team, you will have to provide an explanation of the building process, strength and weaknesses, and the importable of the team itself. The winner of each week will get their team...
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Since Im not playing either scl or lcwc its time to make this post. Shellder is broken and should be banned from SV LC. The fact that this thing has got away from being suspect tested even tho it has been the focus of several discussions among great players throughout different metagames blows my mind.There is this post from Scottie, this one from tazz or this one from Eric (there are A LOT more).



The stupid thing about shellder is that it has so many different sets and none of them is better than other, it just depends on what you are facing. In other words: each set is better for each scenario. The player has absolutely no way to setguess which set the shellder player is using and each shellder set should be countered differently. Sets that shellder might use: Tera Water, Tera Rock, Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, Sub Tera Steel, TB Grass, TB ground, Special Tera electric…

In addition to this, it has a decent movepool: Liquidation, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Tera Blast, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Protect, Substitute. Enough moves to hit the whole tier and defensive moves to scout for defensive teras. Furthermore, it set ups on the most used mons in the tier (vullaby and mienfoo). And honestly thanks to tera and support from partners (memento, trick, taunt…) it can set up in basically anything.

Do you know any other mon in the tier (or honestly any tier) that has so many equally viable sets ? Because I don’t. And honestly I probably forgot some teras that are also viable.

It creates so many 50/50s, guessing games, being lucky in the builder that it clearly favors the worse player to use it. It reduces the skill.

Some replays that support my opinion:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887776

Starsama vs Wail Wailord, SCL Semifinals

In this replay Im using Tera Steel Sub Shellder. In turn 22 Starsama should have gone for HJK against Shellder, but he didn't because he was afraid of Tera Ghost/Fairy Shellder, which explains why he went for the U-turn. Some turns after that I Subbed in his Vullaby roosting which let me win the game. Starsama had no way to figure out my set and lost because of it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-891689

Greedy vs Agera, LCWC Quarterfinals

Even tho Agera got kinda lucky with some rolls and hitting hydros, and Greedy probably misplayed as well the fact that set even exists is ridiculous.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-881752?p2

bbb vs Always Edgy LCWC Week 1

In this replay bbb expertly sacks Vullaby, taunting the tinkatink and making it set up fodder. Then bbb tera ghosts his shellder to be able to set up in mare as well as being immune to Fake Out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-883616

Rarre vs nashrock, LCWC Week 2

Even tho this is a lose, Nashrock could have won if he clicked Liquidation (assuming he had liquidation). The 50/50 shellder creates on rarre to wether or not tera its another reason to ban it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-884579

rarre vs greedy, LCWC Week 3

Rarre doesnt even need to tera his shellder. Memento glimm allows shell to set up in mare (kinda similar to the previous bbb replay). Tect helps for pinch/foo priority, allowing the sweep to happen.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-886931

Nashrock vs Stories LCWC Week 4

This game shows how early teraring against shellder might be easily punished. Stories probably had defensives teras to deal with shell in both foo and vull but without those Stories just lost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-885906

Loki vs Vulpix LCWC Week 4

Loki could have won this game if he attacked the pinch instead of smashing again. Pix had no way to know that the shell was Tera Ghost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887989

teamo vs Hoennspetile LCWC Week 5

Uses tera ghost to make the drifloon set up fodder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2486777461-3e1tecpjn2f0yai0kapj40rbsccfionpw

Fernanch vs Corck LCWC Week 6

Tera Rock lets shellder set up, kill chinchou and also reduces the damage of a possible fake out / feint from scarf foo. Hail is a hard mu for shellder but it doesnt even matter. Tect helps a lot to scout defensive teras. If that shellder had any other tera it might have hard a harder time dealing with chinchou. But it had the right tera in the right place.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-889521

seraph vs rarre LCWC Week 6

Shell set ups in vull and wins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2489840957-3n67bngfej9j3rvtbiir0wadaaypgkipw

Always Edgy vs Octperlover LCWC Week 7

Tera Rock lets set up in meowth and resist fake out / Feint. In addition to this it has tect to scout for defensive teras.

I probably could have came up with even more replays, and maybe will edit this in the future to add some more if i have the time.


Im aware that it not might be the best timing, as LCWC hasnt ended, but I strongly believe that Suspect testing Shellder after LCWC is what the LC Council should do.
 
Last edited:
Wail Wailord said:
Since Im not playing either scl or lcwc its time to make this post. Shellder is broken and should be banned from SV LC. The fact that this thing has got away from being suspect tested even tho it has been the focus of several discussions among great players throughout different metagames blows my mind.There is this post from Scottie, this one from tazz or this one from Eric (there are A LOT more).



The stupid thing about shellder is that it has so many different sets and none of them is better than other, it just depends on what you are facing. In other words: each set is better for each scenario. The player has absolutely no way to setguess which set the shellder player is using and each shellder set should be countered differently. Sets that shellder might use: Tera Water, Tera Rock, Tera Fairy, Tera Ghost, Sub Tera Steel, TB Grass, TB ground, Special Tera electric…

In addition to this, it has a decent movepool: Liquidation, Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, Tera Blast, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Protect, Substitute. Enough moves to hit the whole tier and defensive moves to scout for defensive teras. Furthermore, it set ups on the most used mons in the tier (vullaby and mienfoo). And honestly thanks to tera and support from partners (memento, trick, taunt…) it can set up in basically anything.

Do you know any other mon in the tier (or honestly any tier) that has so many equally viable sets ? Because I don’t. And honestly I probably forgot some teras that are also viable.

It creates so many 50/50s, guessing games, being lucky in the builder that it clearly favors the worse player to use it. It reduces the skill.

Some replays that support my opinion:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887776

Starsama vs Wail Wailord, SCL Semifinals

In this replay Im using Tera Steel Sub Shellder. In turn 22 Starsama should have gone for HJK against Shellder, but he didn't because he was afraid of Tera Ghost/Fairy Shellder, which explains why he went for the U-turn. Some turns after that I Subbed in his Vullaby roosting which let me win the game. Starsama had no way to figure out my set and lost because of it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-891689

Greedy vs Agera, LCWC Quarterfinals

Even tho Agera got kinda lucky with some rolls and hitting hydros, and Greedy probably misplayed as well the fact that set even exists is ridiculous.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-881752?p2

bbb vs Always Edgy LCWC Week 1

In this replay bbb expertly sacks Vullaby, taunting the tinkatink and making it set up fodder. Then bbb tera ghosts his shellder to be able to set up in mare as well as being immune to Fake Out.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-883616

Rarre vs nashrock, LCWC Week 2

Even tho this is a lose, Nashrock could have won if he clicked Liquidation (assuming he had liquidation). The 50/50 shellder creates on rarre to wether or not tera its another reason to ban it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-884579

rarre vs greedy, LCWC Week 3

Rarre doesnt even need to tera his shellder. Memento glimm allows shell to set up in mare (kinda similar to the previous bbb replay). Tect helps for pinch/foo priority, allowing the sweep to happen.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-886931

Nashrock vs Stories LCWC Week 4

This game shows how early teraring against shellder might be easily punished. Stories probably had defensives teras to deal with shell in both foo and vull but without those Stories just lost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-885906

Loki vs Vulpix LCWC Week 4

Loki could have won this game if he attacked the pinch instead of smashing again. Pix had no way to know that the shell was Tera Ghost.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-887989

teamo vs Hoennspetile LCWC Week 5

Uses tera ghost to make the drifloon set up fodder

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2486777461-3e1tecpjn2f0yai0kapj40rbsccfionpw

Fernanch vs Corck LCWC Week 6

Tera Rock lets shellder set up, kill chinchou and also reduces the damage of a possible fake out / feint from scarf foo. Hail is a hard mu for shellder but it doesnt even matter. Tect helps a lot to scout defensive teras. If that shellder had any other tera it might have hard a harder time dealing with chinchou. But it had the right tera in the right place.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-889521

seraph vs rarre LCWC Week 6

Shell set ups in vull and wins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2489840957-3n67bngfej9j3rvtbiir0wadaaypgkipw

Always Edgy vs Octperlover LCWC Week 7

Tera Rock lets set up in meowth and resist fake out / Feint. In addition to this it has tect to scout for defensive teras.

I probably could have came up with even more replays, and maybe will edit this in the future to add some more if i have the time.


Im aware that it not might be the best timing, as LCWC hasnt ended, but I strongly believe that Suspect testing Shellder after LCWC is what the LC Council should do.
Click to expand...
I think shelder tera is a bit overwhelming as well. On top of that, overcoat sets are sometimes ran. While it is true you can check a shelder sweep with a tera water/steel on a defensive mon like mudbray, it does feel very difficult to handle solely because of the tera aspect of the mon imo. Just so many different things to look out for, and it feels bad to feel forced into a 50/50 as a reward for making progress by scoring a ko.
 
:sv/ekans:
Ekans @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 76 HP / 4 Def / 164 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Gunk Shot / Substitute
- Knock Off
- Glare
Bumping Ekans for VR (C/D)
Usecases:
Offensively,
Cripple an enemy pokemon with Knock Off and Glare for a teammate to set up. Shellder, Vullaby, Mienfoo, Gimmighoul-Roaming, etc. all benefit from Ekans support.

Defensively,
Ekans has Intimidate, which is invaluable in a physically skewed metagame. Ekans also has the poison type, allowing it to function as a frailer Fighting resist even contesting Mienfoo.

Speed control cannot be overstated. Speed is the most important stat in SV LC, therefore para is one of the strongest statuses. Ekans has access to the aforementioned Glare, which is one of the best para moves in the game; is able to paralyze ground types with 100% accuracy.
Interactions and Toolkit:
Ekans is best used as an early to midgame disruptor and therefore it plays against pokemon like Mudbray, Glimmet, Tinkatink, Vullaby, Mienfoo, Elekid, Chinchou.

  • Mudbray is a bad mu and cant be dealt with by Ekans without incredible para odds.
  • Glimmet is contested by Ekans 16 speed and is OHKOed by Earthquake. Glare is also used if you fear Tera Flying.
  • Tinkatink is walled by Ekans and is weak to EQ
  • Vullaby is a high value Glare target, another 16 speed pokemon to tie.
  • Mienfoo vs Ekans is an incredibly deep matchup and requires experience to master. Maybe one day ill write a flow chart for it. For the purpose of this post, Glare and Knock to set up for a teammate.
  • Elekid and Chinchou will try to come in to absorb Glare, being the only para immunes in the format. Use EQ to snipe entry points; use Glare when they are in to predict Volt Switch.
Ekans also can run Substitute (over Gunk Shot) to cheese Mienfoo and wall Foongus on certain teams.

Earthquake, Knock Off, Glare are mandatory.
 
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